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[Lyn Farel]

Ah if I had to answer ICly Arkady, Lyn would have disagreed. People keep thinking that nothing is happening, the populations are safe and all that, because uncle Sansha choosed to attack capsuleers instead. Basically, there are 3 points that makes me think this is blatantly false :

1) As I said above, regular Sansha NPCs continue to act in New Eden independantly of these incursions, and keep abducting/terrorising people all around. Any conventionnal pve mission against Sansha Nation or sansha usual NPCs in empire belts are sufficient proofs themselves.

2) As Kaleigh said, its economically a disaster.

3) Incursions only targeting capsuleers is just totally false. You just have to look at some of the incursions sites of various sizes, called "overwhelmed civilian facility", where you usually have to save abducted people and put them into an evacuation freighter.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Arkady, I am curious as to why you feel that plots based around "external threats that unite former adversaries" are bad. One thing that I regret is that my interaction with Imperial, Caldari and some pirate faction supporters is very limited based on current relations between the NPC groups they are affiliated with.

Having something force us to work together, even in a limited way, increases the scope for interaction. So how can that be bad.

RP stories that are interesting to me at least is driven by conflict. There is only a very small amount of interaction you can get out of "I like you, you like me." External threats provide the big superhammer to kill any kind of conflict: "How can you think of X when we have to deal with Y?!" Which means that a big enough external threat (e.g. how Sansha is apparently treated) results, after a bit of initial awkwardness, in a situation where you have very  little to RP about outside of what the external threat generates - and I would not, in general, rely on CCP to generate all the RP we can get.

Compare this to FW (there was a discussion about that in another thread). FW removed, among other things, the conflict of "pro-peace, pro-Republic vs. pro-war, anti-Republic" Minmatar loyalists. You'd think that "the war broke out!" would create more RP, but the only RP it generates is the RP CCP creates of it - whereas the pro-peace/pro-war conflict generated RP all by itself.

This is obviously not an on/off switch, but a gradual scale. My point being, the stronger the "unifying external threats" are, the fewer was of possible conflict you have, the less RP generators you have.

Interacting with someone is not the same as liking them. You don't have to like someone to work with them, just feel that working with them has benefits that outweigh the dislike. In much the same way you don't have to hate someone to fight them.

Also, consider if you will the inherent drama of working with people who are normally your enemies, and wondering when someone will decide that the circumstances that have caused the interaction have chaged enough for hostilities to start again.

As far as your point about FW and pro peace/pro war Minmatar groups. Now we have the people that think the current administration are wonderful and the Elders are spirit sent. And the folks who are still loyal but are more than a tad cynical about the whole thing. There are always grounds for disagreement and conflict if you look hard enough.

However. This is a tad off topic for this thread. Maybe we should start another one to explore this in a bit more depth.

[Arkady Sadik]

Interacting with someone is not the same as liking them.

Slight tangent: We have had some problems in EM in the past with telling people ICly that we'd find it weird if they are in EM and are best friends with hostiles (IC, of course; we have friends among the amarr OOC :-)), and then later found out that they thought we forbid them to RP with non-EMers. That was quite a "wtf" for us.

Likewise, you do not need an external threat to RP with other factions. And I thought that was the reason you liked the "big external threat" thing?

My problem is a different one, though.

"You keep slaves! This is INHUMANE of you! You should stop!"

"That might very well be, but it's irrelevant right now: THE SANSHA ARE COMING."

"You just want to bring your stupid Gallentean culture into our space. We want to be who we are."

"I'd disagree, but why the hell are you bothering about Gallentean cultural imperialism? THE SANSHA ARE COMING!"

"You attacked CONCORD and the Empire, you need to be taught a lesson!"

"Are you stupid? That happened years ago, what you are doing is just playing into the hands of the Sansha. Stop your silly antics."

Etc. etc.

That's what I meant. No matter what, all disagreements, all matters of conflict can easily be "squashed" by "BUT THE <EXTERNAL THREAT HERE> IS COMING!" The resulting RP then boils down to grumpy remarks and snipes. And at least for me, that tends to get boring rather quickly.

And again, this is not an on/off switch, but a continuum. My point being, the bigger the external (NPC) threat, the fewer the possible interactions with other players, the more dependent you are on RP from CCP/NPCs. Of course there is still some RP possible, but it's less than there was before.

As far as your point about FW and pro peace/pro war Minmatar groups. Now we have the people that think the current administration are wonderful and the Elders are spirit sent. And the folks who are still loyal but are more than a tad cynical about the whole thing.

Oh, sure. But if I compare the RP interaction I got about the earlier thing, and the RP interaction I get about the current disagreement, I have to say I'll take the old situation back any day. ;-)

There are always grounds for disagreement and conflict if you look hard enough.

Yes. But I would prefer an RP environment that makes it easier to find them, not harder.

[Merdaneth]

Incursion Sansha's have become 'farmables'. Their rate or manner of their destruction has no visible impact on the game world. They have become the equivalent of Sansha missions or Sansha belt rats: better ignored in with regards to RP storylines and development.

I don't know about other RP groups, but most RPers I talk with always speak about Sansha 'rats' in terms of income streams and resources to be harvested *IC*. I find that suggesting Sansha's are an actual threat IC often meets with some raised eyebrows or some odd IC/OOC disconnect. "Oh yeah, I almost forgot, those red crosses are actual ships menacing travelers and destroying whole colonies and space stations".

This ties into the other thread. If there is no visible effect of the Sansha (for good or for worse) on the NPC game world, then as far as the NPC world, they might as well not exist. As far as the capsuleer world is concerned, Incursion Sansha's are quickly becoming akin to agricultural products, best harvested when they are ripe, while non-Incursion Sansha's have had a produce status among capsuleers for years now.

The most dangerous Sansha-infested draw capsuleers and are defended like precious resources rather than inspiring fear, awe or something which they are supposed to inspire ICly.

I can take capsuleer Sansha supporters seriously, but I find it often difficult to take the NPC Sansha's seriously.

[Morwen Lagann]

The end result of players banding together to keep the incursions around for their entire week-long lifespan, while it may play into the Content team's possible plans for the story arc (ref: Ghost's joke about xanatos gambits), I sincerely doubt that it was the intention of the people designing and implementing it.

If an incursion being active caused actually noticeable detrimental effects on the constellations surrounding it (IC excuse, CONCORD/DED is focusing its attention on the Incursion constellation?) that did not decrease in severity with the influence level there might be some impetus to clear them faster. Artificial "traffic control" delays in jumping, increased timers for CONCORD response to GCC (or better yet, temporarily lowered system security ratings, say, modifier of -0.2), etc.

Morwen still considers them a threat IC, and isn't too amused by the BTL/TDF agreement, but there's very little one person can do about it in an effective manner, so she just grits her teeth and enjoys getting to put 800mm rounds through more toasters.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Incursion Sansha's have become 'farmables'. Their rate or manner of their destruction has no visible impact on the game world. They have become the equivalent of Sansha missions or Sansha belt rats: better ignored in with regards to RP storylines and development.

I don't know about other RP groups, but most RPers I talk with always speak about Sansha 'rats' in terms of income streams and resources to be harvested *IC*. I find that suggesting Sansha's are an actual threat IC often meets with some raised eyebrows or some odd IC/OOC disconnect. "Oh yeah, I almost forgot, those red crosses are actual ships menacing travelers and destroying whole colonies and space stations".

This ties into the other thread. If there is no visible effect of the Sansha (for good or for worse) on the NPC game world, then as far as the NPC world, they might as well not exist. As far as the capsuleer world is concerned, Incursion Sansha's are quickly becoming akin to agricultural products, best harvested when they are ripe, while non-Incursion Sansha's have had a produce status among capsuleers for years now.

The most dangerous Sansha-infested draw capsuleers and are defended like precious resources rather than inspiring fear, awe or something which they are supposed to inspire ICly.

I can take capsuleer Sansha supporters seriously, but I find it often difficult to take the NPC Sansha's seriously.

The problem with this line of thinking is that we suddenly find ourselves making assumptions about NPCs based on game mechanics. None of us are worried about Sansha capturing our station and killing us before we can get into our ships because the game mechanics do not allow this to happen. Does that mean our character behavior should be dictated entirely by game mechanics? Should our characters be more concerned about them than we are, simply because we aren't perceiving them as a threat because the mechanics do not allow it?

[Merdaneth]

The problem with this line of thinking is that we suddenly find ourselves making assumptions about NPCs based on game mechanics. None of us are worried about Sansha capturing our station and killing us before we can get into our ships because the game mechanics do not allow this to happen. Does that mean our character behavior should be dictated entirely by game mechanics? Should our characters be more concerned about them than we are, simply because we aren't perceiving them as a threat because the mechanics do not allow it?

It is not a problem with the line of thinking, I don't think any RPer purposely thinks of Sansha's that way. However, the in-game reality is harsh, and we are able to resist only a certain amount of evidence to the contrary before we fall to the trap of treating them as they appear.

I've regularly tried to communicate with Sansha forces of local channels, even in missions. I've seen this only very, very rarely. People tend to only talk to Sansha's when there's an event actor around, otherwise they don't. Most likely because they know they Sansha won't respond anyway. It is hard to pretend around such realities for years. At some point you'll tend to accept the Sansha IC for what they are in-game. Non-responsive entities with limited intelligence and poor variation in strategy.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

You don't see a problem at all? Because assassins don't exist in-game, does that mean player characters should not worry about them? what about viruses? Kyonoke is supposed to be deadly, but since the virus isn't an applicable game mechanic my character should shrug it off? You see where I'm going with this?

[Merdaneth]

You don't see a problem at all? Because assassins don't exist in-game, does that mean player characters should not worry about them? what about viruses? Kyonoke is supposed to be deadly, but since the virus isn't an applicable game mechanic my character should shrug it off? You see where I'm going with this?

I don't see why you are phrasing this as a problem. I'm not suggesting or advocating a certain playstyle. I'm just making an analysis of the effects certain in-game implementations have on us RP-ers. And I'm not talking about things that don't exist, I am talking about things that do exist: the Sansha. If Sansha's, are for most intents and purposes, non-responsive harvestable resources, then it will be hard to RP them as intelligent, malign and serious threats. If you attempt to portray the Sansha NPCs at the latter in your RP, you would need to do a lot of handwaving and have a lot of awkward RP moments. If your RP treats them as dumb harvestable resources and no real threats, your RP would fit the world much better.

For example: I rarely hear capsuleers tell me (IC) that they need to counter the Sansha (or other pirate threat), they usually tell me they need to 'earn some isk'. They never express worry about the Sansha's belt pirates in nullses, they only talk about other capsuleers as threats. In addition, they mention stuff like 'chaining' and 'ratting'. Of course I can have Merdaneth pretend they aren't talking casually about Sansha threats like they are resources. It is just very difficult to maintain that RP stance when all evidence (both capsuleers talking IC, and you own in-game encounters) indicate that isn't the case.

NPC assassins are easier to imagine because they don't exist and thus no counter-evidence of their nature is available. However, because they don't exist, any assassination attempt would need approval of the involved parties to succeed. Hence it will be relatively difficult to move an assassin-centered ahead as a player

[Louella Dougans]

off the top of my head, there's One sansha that I know of that says something to the player.

In the mission "rogue slave trader 2/2" there is a unique NPC, "Centum Controller" who says "An intruder! don't let him access the gate!"

I have used that Once in RP, to complain to Ghost Hunter, that Centum Controller is being mean, and suggesting I am flat chested enough to be mistaken for a man. 

[Cmdr Baxter]

The Sansha incursions have become something of a joke. There was a very dramatic sense of tension, pre-January, in how the storyline played out. I remember the sense of cooperation and unity that was going on; the race to decrypt the hidden messages, fleets being stood up hours in advance. I even got a shot as FC at one point, had two wings covering one planet and two more at another (all in the same system). It was fun.

Now though, I can't help but shake this feeling that CCP dropped incursions like a hot rock after the Incursion mechanism was rolled out on 24 January. The system is flawed, as it rewards people for doing something which does not conform to the expected RP reality, and I know people have complained to CCP about it in hopes of a change. (So far, nothing. Not even an acknowledgement of the concerns.) And it's gotten easy as well. It used to be that entire fleets getting wiped out was the norm. Now it makes headlines if you lose more than a quarter of an incursion fleet or group.

The best that RP'ers can hope for, in my opinion, is to "keep the fire burning" with regards to the backstory RP of the incursions while they hope/wait for a change or something that more directly impacts the overall storyline. In SYNE, we've taken to pulling select people (including some from outside the corporation) together and we stay in regular contact in order to at least keep a system in place for future contact. That way, we know we'll be ready to respond if/when the incursions get a little more serious, or again occupy a place on the front-burner at CCP.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I don't see why you are phrasing this as a problem. I'm not suggesting or advocating a certain playstyle. I'm just making an analysis of the effects certain in-game implementations have on us RP-ers. And I'm not talking about things that don't exist, I am talking about things that do exist: the Sansha. If Sansha's, are for most intents and purposes, non-responsive harvestable resources, then it will be hard to RP them as intelligent, malign and serious threats. If you attempt to portray the Sansha NPCs at the latter in your RP, you would need to do a lot of handwaving and have a lot of awkward RP moments. If your RP treats them as dumb harvestable resources and no real threats, your RP would fit the world much better.

It presents a continuity dilemma in a roleplay environment. This has nothing to do with play style.

Agent: "The Sansha are planning an invasion of the system. I need you to take care of it for us."
Player: "Nah, it's cool. They don't show up until I do and they don't leave the deadspace pocket." 

...because the mission mechanics do not allow the npcs to do so. This is an example of a false illustration of how a faction can be mis-characterized based on game mechanics.

Meanwhile, in the Coalition war room, pilots and generals gather around to formulate a plan to repel the incoming Sansha invasion...

General: "I'm going to distribute forces at key locations on the station in preparation for their boarding parties."
Pilot: "Don't worry about it. The Sansha never attack stations. They only attack pilots and sometimes limit services in the station."
General: "What about infiltration, sabotage? We should prepare for-"
Pilot: "They don't do that either. Infact, just grab a drink and let us take care of it."

One of the key points of roleplay is adding a level of immersion to ones game play. What's the point of doing so if the universe consists solely of what game-play mechanics allow? Are there assassins, saboteurs, double-agents? Since we only look at game mechanics as a measure of our world, does that mean there's no station interior beyond our rooms? In my opinion, denying the full capability of a faction (were it a real entity) and simply perceiving it based on an artificial intelligence and gameplay mechanics ignores a fundamental concept behind roleplay- that there's more to a world than what we're allowed to interact with.

[Louella Dougans]

In my opinion, denying the full capability of a faction (were it a real entity) and simply perceiving it based on an artificial intelligence and gameplay mechanics ignores a fundamental concept behind roleplay- that there's more to a world than what we're allowed to interact with.

doesn't that then mean that the players preference for keeping incursions around to farm, means the Incursions are largely succeeding in their objectives, a bit like Ghost said?

I mean, the players are giving Nation a whole week to do their Stuff, and all.

[Merdaneth]

One of the key points of roleplay is adding a level of immersion to ones game play. What's the point of doing so if the universe consists solely of what game-play mechanics allow? Are there assassins, saboteurs, double-agents? Since we only look at game mechanics as a measure of our world, does that mean there's no station interior beyond our rooms? In my opinion, denying the full capability of a faction (were it a real entity) and simply perceiving it based on an artificial intelligence and gameplay mechanics ignores a fundamental concept behind roleplay- that there's more to a world than what we're allowed to interact with.

I'm not arguing against this immersive approach at all. In fact, I favor it. I'm merely saying that if you have a male actor play a female role, then it gets harder for fellow players to react to the actor as if he were a female.

If Sansha appear in most aspects as farmables, then it will be harder for players to respond to them as dangerous intelligences. I'm not advocating that we should respond to them as farmables, I'm saying that if it acts like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, its hard to immerse yourself in such a manner that you aren't treating it as a duck.

Again, do not confuse my analysis with being an advocate of a certain approach to RP. I'm in favor of having game mechanics either simulate stuff in such a way that you aren't presented with contrary evidence, or have the fiction back up the in-game reality.

Drones, for example, are much less a problem for me IC. They are alien intelligences, going about their jobs for unfathomable reasons. I'm not suprised if they suicide wave after wave into my ship. It is very hard for me to maintain my immersion/suspension of disbelief as wave after wave of Sansha suicide themselves, not warping off while in structure and not having a point on them. If my character has to act in-line with PF, he has to disregard or handwave a huge number of in-game Sansha facts. For proper immersion, my character has to lie and disbelieve what he perceives in-game. That sucks.

[Merdaneth]

doesn't that then mean that the players preference for keeping incursions around to farm, means the Incursions are largely succeeding in their objectives, a bit like Ghost said?

I mean, the players are giving Nation a whole week to do their Stuff, and all.

Or that the Sansha have infiltrated Concord and have influenced them to setup improper reward mechanisms that motivate capsuleers to stretch out Incursions for a long as possible.

As for the Sansha themselves, I have no idea if the current losses are justified for reaching their goals, because I don't know their goals. I just feel that their current strategy, while initially surprising, has been analyzed and largely neutralized by capsuleers.