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[orange]

I often toss out the following line just to see how people will react to it, and I will do so here as well:

The worst thing that ever happened to (these United States) was the CSA losing the Civil War.

Some edits. Also pre-emptive 

The simple response is that it established the Federal government as superseding the State and local governments and made an original function of the 2nd Amendment mute.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The CSA's military was in essence raised from militia forces, commanded by US Army Officers.

Militias act as the core response to a tyrannical central government (especially from the viewpoint of the Founding Fathers).

Since then the concept of militias has fallen out of favor.  The National Guards, while drawing on Militia roots, are not the same thing.  They are funded by the Federal government and tied into the Federal military structure.

It would be interesting for a State government to fund upgrades to its National Guard outside of the Federal process.  Expensive but interesting.

[Lillith Blackheart]

It was about money.

No, actually, it wasn't. For a brief history lesson; the root cause of the Civil War was that the largest voting bloc and the main population base (that was allowed to vote) was in the North, and the North was steadily moving to consolidate the power to the Federal Government, leveraging their greater voting power to push things through the South did not want to see go through. The Secession from the Union was not about Slavery (though that was the final straw), it was not about money, it was about States having their power. They were in fact working off Jefferson's statements in the Kentucky Resolutions that he claimed that States should not be submissive to the Government, and should be able to secede if they feel their rights are being unfairly infringed.

I often toss out the following line just to see how people will react to it, and I will do so here as well:

The worst thing that ever happened to (these United States) was the CSA losing the Civil War.

Some edits. Also pre-emptive 

The edits are unnecessary, as "these United States" is the United States. The South lost the Civil War, making the CSA unimportant, because this is the US.

However:

The simple response is that it established the Federal government as superseding the State and local governments and made an original function of the 2nd Amendment mute.

The 2nd Amendment can't talk! (Moot is the word! Hehe) But you're on the right track, however it's not about the 2nd Amendment. It's about this clause:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

And whether or not that meant that States had to kowtow, which many leaders of the time felt they shouldn't, and that a State should have the right to leave the Union if they did not like the Union's direction -- which most of the South did not due to the fact that their population was considerably smaller than the North's (that could vote, of course), and so many things they disagreed with would go through without them having much say.

Militias act as the core response to a tyrannical central government (especially from the viewpoint of the Founding Fathers).

Since then the concept of militias has fallen out of favor.  The National Guards, while drawing on Militia roots, are not the same thing.  They are funded by the Federal government and tied into the Federal military structure.

Militias have fallen out of favor because standing, professional armies are far more effective, and now due to the way of munitions regulation, even if there was a citizen's militia, and they did opt to rise up, they would be so out-equipped, out-trained, and out-gunned, it would be a slaughter. I don't care how many AR-15s you have, you're not going to beat the 1st Armored Division.

[Havohej]

It was about money.

No, actually, it wasn't. For a brief history lesson; the root cause of the Civil War was that the largest voting bloc and the main population base (that was allowed to vote) was in the North, and the North was steadily moving to consolidate the power to the Federal Government, leveraging their greater voting power to push things through the South did not want to see go through. The Secession from the Union was not about Slavery (though that was the final straw), it was not about money, it was about States having their power. They were in fact working off Jefferson's statements in the Kentucky Resolutions that he claimed that States should not be submissive to the Government, and should be able to secede if they feel their rights are being unfairly infringed.

And the North took to shooting over the Confederate states' exercising their right to secede because the Union couldn't afford to lose the trade income provided by the South's cash crops.  The Secession was about State rights.  The Civil War was about money.

[Natalcya Katla]

I don't have time to make an in-depth argument, but I'll just pipe in to say that as far as I'm concerned, anyone claiming the Secession of the South and the American Civil War was about one thing only and not about anything else are making themselves guilty of gross oversimplification.

In general, "magic arrow" arguments regarding historical events which emphasize one contributing factor to the exclusion of all others rarely give an accurate view of said event.

[Lillith Blackheart]

That implies, Katla, that there is not a primary factor of things. There are contributing factors, there are catalysts, and there is a primary factor involved. Discussing the primary factor as the factor does not paint a generalized brush. With the South's secession, the "other factors" that pushed it to make that decision to seperate from the Union all continued to boil into state's rights issues. Slavery, lack of representation, etc.

[orange]

Prior to 1860, the federation of states between Mexico and Canada was referred to as these United States.  It was considered in the plural as each State was internally independent.  Following the American Civil War, the United States became standard, removing the plurality.

The issue of Slavery was the contemporary catalyst for the question of State's rights versus those of the Federal government.

[Kamiko Hautala]

* Kamiko Hautala smirks evilly as the group continues to speak.

[Havohej]

* Kamiko Hautala smirks evilly as the group continues to speak.

I'm just glad I haven't had to click a report button in all of this politics stuff ('cause I obviously couldn't mod the thread myself now :p).  You guys are all pretty chill

[Kamiko Hautala]

EVE players are in a specialized class of awesomeness. This ain't no WoW dungeon tips forum, yo.

On a side note, I'm glad we have a lot of diversity. Although we all don't agree on things, we at least have a majority of players here who are interested in discussing politics.

[lallara zhuul]

For some reason I am starting to lean towards anarchism because of the fact that all the other political directions seem to discard the value of an individual into the bin 'for the greater good'.

[Ciarente]

I think most of us can agree that the government dictating what you can and can't say, where you can and can't go, etc are all bad things.  These represent government interference.

Err .. In fact, I do disagree that these are universally bad things.

I come from a country where my freedom to walk down the street hand-in-hand with my girlfriend without having abuse yelled at me overrides the freedom of speech of homophobes to scream 'fucking dyke bitch' out of their car windows as they pass (hate-speech legislation) - and I like it.

I come from a country where inciting violence against a person or group of people because of their race, gender, ethnicity or religion is a criminal offence - and I like it.

I come from a country where you can get a court order preventing a newspaper publishing lies about you before seven million people see your picture on the front page of a scandal-rag - and I like it.

I come from a country where every citizen is required to enroll to vote at the age of 18 and to attend the polling place for every state and federal election - and I like it.

I come from a country where it's illegal to discriminate against someone in employment because of their gender, marital status, race, religion, sexual preference, or ethnic identity - and I like it.

I come from a country where the government says, for example, you can't walk into a live power sub-station or onto a train-track - and I like it.

[Ciarente]

Just for the sake of digression, the efficiency of the Gestapo has been severely overrated in popular culture. They were brutal and wore scary (though stylish) uniforms, sure - but they were also severely understaffed, largely corrupt and forced to rely on local informants to a very large degree.

I had a friend at uni who went on to do a PhD proving that Mussolini did not, in fact, make the trains run on time.

[Kamiko Hautala]

For some reason I am starting to lean towards anarchism because of the fact that all the other political directions seem to discard the value of an individual into the bin 'for the greater good'.

Good luck with finding a home, water, food, a job, a car, places to walk and have fun at, and socialize without having to resort to having a gun to protect yourself from the lawless society.

[Lillith Blackheart]

I come from a country where every citizen is required to enroll to vote at the age of 18 and to attend the polling place for every state and federal election - and I like it.

Exactly what country is this? I know it can't be the US, because you're not required to do any of those things, only encouraged. If you were required to do so, elections would end up a lot differently, because huge numbers of people -- mostly moderates -- don't vote.

For some reason I am starting to lean towards anarchism because of the fact that all the other political directions seem to discard the value of an individual into the bin 'for the greater good'.

Anarchy will always give rise to Dictatorship or Oligarchy. Always.

[Ciarente]

I come from a country where every citizen is required to enroll to vote at the age of 18 and to attend the polling place for every state and federal election - and I like it.

Exactly what country is this? I know it can't be the US, because you're not required to do any of those things, only encouraged. If you were required to do so, elections would end up a lot differently, because huge numbers of people -- mostly moderates -- don't vote.

Australia.