Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I see it pretty simply.

CONCORD polices as regulates capsuleer activity.

DED - deals with criminal and civil law.
SCC - deals with financial and business law along with taxation.

The sovereign navies respond against capsuleers based on their own standings and the standings that the DED set, also known as your security status (if an egger has -5 to the Federation, DED guidelines say he's free to be fired on by the Federation Navy, SDII et cetera, they're also fired on if their overall DED security standing is low enough).

To me, Capsuleers are above territorial law, which is why they're so feared or revered by most. Outside the capsule, they're pretty much untouchable by the sovereign powers. The DED are responsible for the apprehension and processing of capsuleer criminals, hence the DED bounty system and the sec status system, and are sometimes assisted with the information from the relevant sovereign law enforcement agencies that may have intelligence on a given capsuleer. The DED do all the heavy work, and the actual physical work.

Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.

Pretty much agree with all of this.

I also never really understood the whole Capsuleer slave thing... it makes NO sense at all to me whatsoever. I fail to see logically how any capsuleer can be enslaved.

I could think of a few reasons off the top of my head:

1) Mind control - its not unheard of in New Eden. As the captor, you'd better hope that the previous clone doesn't have any memory of your existence when their clone was last updated, or there might be some reprisal!
2) Extortion - A crafty individual has a coveted 'thing' of a capsuleer. Maybe it's a loved one such as a  family member, or maybe information about a terrible secret, but its important enough to be someone's pawn until they can conjure a way out of the bargain.
3) Willing - Who knows what kind of deviants and perverts roam about in the dark-grim world of New Eden? Maybe some people like the idea of having no control...



^___^

[Seriphyn]

Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)

Just sayin'

[Katrina Oniseki]

Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)

Just sayin'

I always got the impression the Black Eagles were something of a group that operated above and/or outside the law. The types of people who would break the law to enforce a political agenda for the sake of Federation security. If the Black Eagles do something, I wouldn't automatically assume it's something just anyone can do, and I wouldn't even assume it's legal. Kinda like the Spectres in Mass Effect.

As I said before, it's entirely possible that a Capsuleer walking around on the surface of the planet could be falsely arrested or kidnapped. Just because it can happen, doesn't mean it's within the law or that anything can come of it.

Besides, this RP came to a close with an ending that I deem acceptable. She was sentenced but the sentence cannot be enforced, or at least isn't being enforced.

[Matariki Rain]

Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.

From the new Incarna new player experience:

Tribal sponsorhip is a longstanding tradition within the Minmatar Republic. Typically sponsorship is sought by an individual before embarking on a journey away from their tribe, or as part of a corporation's employment process. After a sometimes lengthy approval process, a Minmatar is then able to proceed with the full support of their tribal peers.

Typically, a citizen of the Republic will seek sponsorship from only their family tribe, and this is usually sufficient to last their lifetime, barring any dramatic changes. In some rare circumstances, sponsorship is granted from all of the seven tribes to particularly promising individuals.

In the unique case of the capsuleers, the seven tribes of the Republic have agreed to blanket-issue sponsorships as an attempt to encourage loyalty and cooperation.

A document representing submission to the authority of the Amarrian Empress, Jamyl Sarum.

Notably, the language surrounding capsuleer fealty has been significantly watered down, revealing that even the Amarr Empire is willing to acknowledge the reality of capsuleer freedom and autonomy.

I'm not sure whether to take these as evidence that there are ties to the various polities or as evidence that the polities want to create social-level ties where there are no legal ties. I'd kind of assumed it meant there was a bond, with citizenship, but perhaps on better terms than most people got.

I also never really understood the whole Capsuleer slave thing... it makes NO sense at all to me whatsoever. I fail to see logically how any capsuleer can be enslaved.

Yeah, well...

[John Revenent]

Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)

Just sayin'

Makes a good point.

Also the 4-4 chron made it obvious that capsuleers were not as untouchable as most would think.

[Lyn Farel]

I agree with Verone, but to a certain point. If a capsuleer screws up bad enough on a planet under any authority, they will have to deal with said authorities. For example I am quite unsure that a capsuleer causing a rampage in Crystal Boulevard would get out untouched and all laughing his ass off.

Roden is a good example.

Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.

This contradicts itself to my opinion. If you are say, russian, and go fuck with people on US ground, you will be bound by their laws and fall under the jurisdiction of their authorities. Why would it be different for capsuleers ? Because they have no nationality ? That does not make any sense legal wise if they are under the legislation of CONCORD. And like IRL, when you are important enough (meaning, famous, rich, a the center of an ideological drama) like a capsuleer, there may be a lot of pressure put by DED for example to make the extradition of the said capsuleer become a reality.

Honestly Ava, I hesitated to make Lyn come in the cloister yesterday when you all discussed about that issue, but her opinion would have been quite simple : pull some strings in CONCORD/DED officials to extract Ava out of the grasp of the MIO and judge her themselves.

Main issue : we have no tools ingame to make someone lose sec status for well... "RP crimes on a planet".

[Ava Starfire]

Holy crap, thanks for the replies!

For clarity, I didnt mean this in connection to the rather poorly planned and executed RP "what?" that happened over the weekend, nor do I believe there is any way, shape, or form to "enslave" a capsuleer. Is there a way to make them do what you want, via coercion, threats, extortion? Sure. Hold them indefinately? Not likely.

The reason I asked was I see this pop up in game all the time, and honestly, the responses range from "I fuel my MWD with Intaki children, deal with it, I am untouchable" to the more reasonable replies that seem prevalent here.

Are capsuleers above the law? In short, seems the answer is "no".
Can capsuleers clone when outside the pod? Seems mixed?
Can ground entities really do a whole lot to a capsuleer that dosent do something as dumb as what Ava did? Not really.

The point of it was what she did was dumb. People told her to be careful before, she didnt listen, and got a little education here. That whole mess, as far as I hope, is gone. The broader question of "What legal action can be taken against eggers?" was what i meant to ask, sorry for lack of clarity.

Ava, eating popcorn

[Myyona]

Hm, maybe capsuleers have no nationality and are above the laws of local authorities. But if agencies from said authorities manage to break my legs and pull me in for questioning who exactly is going to stop them?

I mean, if I answer to nobody when on top, who would fight for my rights when I am down?

[Victoria Stecker]

In my view, what it comes down to is the distinction between what can be done legally and what can be done practically. From a legal standpoint, the local government may not have the authority to haul in a capsuleer and hold him/her/it accountable for crimes.

From a practical standpoint, if a capsuleer is outside the pod, sending a few dozen armed men to pick them up doesn't seem like it would be that hard. This is why all of my RP characters not named Stecker travel with extensive (possibly excessive) security teams.

On the other hand, anyone taking the opportunity to abduct a capsuleer probably knows what they're doing is illegal and will avoid informing the public about it. Capsuleers are known to be unpredictable, violent, and excessively wealthy. Informing them that you've just taken one of their friends into custody with dubious or non-existant legal grounds seems like a good way to invite down the wrath of other demi-gods.

[Verone]

Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)

Just sayin'

The way I see it, NPC capsuleers are in a very different position to us.

As it's said in the NPE which has been pointed out in this thread, we're privately funded, with no corporate ties when we graduate successfully and become fully fledged eggers. To me the NPC "capsuleers" are those who're bound to a corporation, or sovereign state. By nature that makes them different to players.

While I agree with what people are saying, that if a capsuleer fucks up bad enough under the jurisdiction of a sovereign law enforcement agency, then they should be perfectly able to take them down or take them into custody, I would think that given the sheer power and influence an egger has, they'd want to be saying "fuck this shit" and handing the capsuleer over to the DED as soon as humanly possible to avoid red tape and bullshit.

As for capsuleers being untouchable, not at all. The way I see it is basically that in general terms an egger is above common law and governed by the DED. Once outside the range of their large scale operations and patrols however, say in deep lowsec or 0.0, then they're just as venerable as anyone else and only the fear of them is what generally keeps them out of trouble, unless some crazy bastard comes along.

With regards to nationality, I don't even bring real world earth politics into my train of thought when I'm considering how factions and corporations would react, or how the laws would be structured. Frankly, we're talking 21 millennia from now, where the human race has evolved so drastically that it has a completely different set of moral values and for  a percentage of the population death is pretty much an inconvenience baring any major failure of the technology they're using, which is a slim chance at best. It's a totally different situation and current world legal policies really have no place in it.

Trying to compare a modern day country in terms of political policy, to a sovereign entity 21 thousand years from now that spans multiple star systems, multiple constellations and contains tens of trillions of people on hundreds of worlds is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

[Matariki Rain]

Trying to compare a modern day country in terms of political policy, to a sovereign entity 21 thousand years from now that spans multiple star systems, multiple constellations and contains tens of trillions of people on hundreds of worlds is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

Kind of yes and kind of no, in my view.

In theory, yes. In reality future cultures would most likely be very, very different.

EVE, however, isn't really an attempt to create those future cultures. It's an extension of a range of current-world cultures and current-world-fiction tropes, as filtered through the eyes of a bunch of Icelandic game designers writing for a largely North American and European audience. Portions of the EVE-world have been incongruous or downright quaint because they show their real-world roots so strongly. So, in practice I think EVE is more a warped mirror of us than a real attempt at future cultures.

[Lyn Farel]

We already had that discussion somewhere on these forum I dont remember where... Well, IRL comparisons are good for realism or coherence, to have common references, images, to check if something is credible, etc. But they are bad when they start to be reproduced integraly in the world of Eve.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Dumb Ava... Y U so stoopid!

Anyway, I had fun with the little bit of RP this sparked for Aldy. It's always fun to yell at Minmatar and kick them out the door because you don't want to deal with them, even as a slave. Fun stuff!

[Isobel Mitar]

Here is how I have played this stuff works in the past:

Visiting international areas of stations

Stations where capsuleers can dock have an "international" supposedly "neutral" area for capsuleers and other visitors. It is supposedly under CONCORD authority, but in practice CONCORD can and does get law enforcement and maintenance help from locals in various degrees. (An Amarr station might have slave janitors, for example)

In addition to ship hangars and corporate offices, this area houses business catering to foreign visitors, varying from bars, cafes and hotels to repairshops and reprocessing services.

This is where visiting capsuleers are generally expected to spend their time. A capsuleer docking on an enemy station and unpodding but staying on this international area is generally fairly safe, as long as they stay out of trouble.

Visiting the parts of a station that are under a nation's sovreignty

With the exception of the the international area, most of a station is under the owning nation's sovreignty, and there national laws apply. There are checks and customs offices between the two areas, so one can for example get caught drug trafficking if trying to smuggle some personal hangar stores out of the international area. 

A capsuleer in good standing with a faction can generally visit safely. (Although having some personal security can be advisable, as would be normal for baselining celebrities) A criminal is a criminal, and an outlaw is an outlaw. That said, especially in low or null sec the locals might not care that much about where one comes from, as long as the capsuleer is not nosy and his money is good.  

I play that the capsuleer legal status in areas of national sovreignty is somewhat unclear, and that theoretically a capsuleer can possibly demand for CONCORD intervention if arrested. However, Eve world is clearly a quite dark and corrupted place, and so I imagine theoretical rights and practical rights can differ a lot - demads for CONCORD intervention might "get passed on in due time and with due process" depending on the pleasure of the local authorities doing the arresting. Jita 4-4 chronicle also suggests that "Oops, my gun went off accidentally! How sad!" might be what happens often when local authorities feel like stopping a capsuleer but not like dealing with the associated mess.

And finally, even should such extradition demands to CONCORD make it thorough, I expect CONCORD won't be very keen to strain national relations by forcibly extracting some Don't-you-know-who-I-am?!? who just had to insist on leaving the designated safe areas and then proceed to getting themselves in trouble with local law. I figure they will most likely file a query by proper channels, and then accept the answer they get at face value. ("Oh, you don't know where he is? Tell us if you find out, please. Thank you for your time, and pleasure doing business with you!")

I am under the impression major part (if not all) of CONCORD funding comes from the four nations, and CONCORD has not exactly given the impression of being overly concerned over the fate of any single individual capsuleer.

I personally figure the most efficient (and likely safest for the prisoner) way of extraditing such a detained capsuleer would be hefty bribes to everybody even remotely involved - CONCORD officials, detaining local law enforcement etc. Everybody gains something, and if something illegal might have happened, nobody has the motive to go dig it up again.

Visiting planets

I expect CONCORD generally has very little authority over what goes on on planets.

I have played that capsuleer comms implants do not work from planets to space - one needs access to other communication equipment.

This means a capsuleer on enemy planet would be effectively stranded. Too bad for them.

[Isobel Mitar]

Are capsuleers above the law? In short, seems the answer is "no".
Can capsuleers clone when outside the pod? Seems mixed?
Can ground entities really do a whole lot to a capsuleer that dosent do something as dumb as what Ava did? Not really.

My take on these:

Capsuleers are not above the law, but getting a capsuleer to answer for their crimes can be quite hard unless the capsuleer does something stupid or wants to be caught. All they need to do is stay in space and on the international areas of the stations.

Capsuleers can't clone outside the pod. (I know different people play this in various ways. The people I mostly play with generally play that backup clones do not exist or at least are not available to average capsuleers. CCP has said they intend to clarify this in the future.)

I am not familiar with the details of "Ava arrest" storyline so no comment about it.

I have played Minmatar capsuleers on Amarr planets can get arrested, implants surgically removed, enslaved and killed (and so on) with only somewhat weightier pretexts than non-capsuleer Minmatar on those planets. It might (or might not) be borderline illegal, but who will stop them? The Speakers of Truth?

Of course the press will make noise if they learn of it. Amarr press will likely approve: "A terrorist converted and now willingly serving God!". Minmatar press will disapprove: "Freedom fighter wrongfully detained!". CONCORD might go: "Oops. Well, she doesn't have implants any more. Not a capsuleer, not our problem."