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[Ava Starfire]

Ok, color me puzzled.

Based on the varying degrees of outcry over the topic, I just gotta ask... what?

Ok, so the governments of the cluster have decided to give people the power of a demigod, and then happily relinquish any right to police their actions, instead forming "CONCORD" a megapolice entity who seem to "punish" capsuleers only by destroying their ship, and ie, their crew, but who do absolutely nothing to the capsuleers themselves.

Really?

When you are a criminal, ie, have sec issues, or have standings issues, it is the enemy faction navy that attacks you, not CONCORD. That looks like theyre policing their own nations to me.

The idea that capsuleers are somehow magically immune to any and all consequences is just a bit hard to swallow... if a capsuleer lands, walks into an Amarrian "sunday school" class, and starts capping children, the local police are just gonna let them walk away, huh?

What would CONCORD actually DO to punish this person? Lower their sec status, seriously?

Game mechanics have limitations; people have to be allowed to be pirates, and gankers, or whatever, and not have their characters "taken away to jail/whatever" for doing so. That dosent mean that the RP community should take that as "how it is".

Confused. Seriously, do people think capsuleers are beyond any actual legal repercussions for their actions, beyond "Sec status"?

[Desiderya]

Lore based this would be: Yes, they are above local jurisdiction. This is why they can only interact in a very limited way with planets ( Capsule interfaces are CONCORD controlled and don't allow more than that ) and are only allowed into special "Capsuleer" sections of stations, for example.

This is, of course, a highly cheesy way to print the limitations of game mechanics into some sort of background. Like "problems with station atmosphere" being the reason for the closed CQ door. On all stations. Everywhere.

As a roleplayer I wouldn't subscribe to the above points since interacting with other non-capsuleers is much, much more enjoyable and believable for character advancement and backgrounds.

[Ghost Hunter]

CCP often promotes Capsuleerdom as literal demi-god status in their advertisements. Their handling of PF reflects that this is also the case in the game: Capsuleers possess such unique social status and exponentially massive economical/political/power they are basically demi-gods.

The entire area is a massive gray zone however, as their promotion of demi-godhood quickly reaches the limit of game mechanics. Why can I not R&D my own superweapons, why can I not doomsday a planet, why can I not destroy a stargate, etcetra. Some of the Nullsec players I've RP'd with are firmly under the belief all Capsuleers everywhere are absolutely controlled by CONCORD. This is largely due to the fact that CONCORD both legitimizes player sovereignty, CONCORD has an omniscience awareness of every player owned station in existence regardless of its spatial location, and CONCORD ships can instantly obliterate anything that violates their patrolled space.

For whatever reasons you don't want to believe in that, a discordance appears in player understanding. It's not explicitly clear why Capsuleers exist as they do, and if they're even well regulated. As Desiderya mentioned about Capsuleer interfaces being controlled by CONCORD, that fits in line with the Nullsec players I mentioned about absolute control.

There is of course the whole game play mechanics vs prime fiction issue, but when either option completely wall bangs sensible logic I have to wonder what the point is to having it. Capsuleers are mercenaries that can do what they please, Capsuleers are controlled by the ultimate authority in some kind of xanatos gambit, bullshit mcguffins implying other things, etc...

tl;dr Yes, Ava. Most people outside of the roleplay community I talk with are under the impression Capsuleers have no legal problems other than security status - because it's the only thing represented in the game.

[Louella Dougans]

what happens in space, stays in space.

On the ground though, people are subject to various laws. And possibly don't have the same legal protection as a normal person.

[Ilsenae Alexandros]

 

[Horatius Caul]

Wasn't it in Jita 4-4 where it was suggested that security outside of capsuleer portions of stations are prone to simply killing any egger they come across - to avoid getting into the kind of clusterfvck that would arise from interacting with them like regular people?

[Louella Dougans]

Wasn't it in Jita 4-4 where it was suggested that security outside of capsuleer portions of stations are prone to simply killing any egger they come across - to avoid getting into the kind of clusterfvck that would arise from interacting with them like regular people?

Yes.

[Seriphyn]

I'm not entirely sure why people stick so rigidly to game mechanics. Isn't RP in and of itself a metagame that throws game mechanics out the window? Most of our RP in bars and whatnot is not possible with the game mechanics anyway...

[Katrina Oniseki]

It seemed to make sense to me that when a Capsuleer is outside the pod on the surface of a planet, they fall under the eyes and hands of whatever local authority there is. However, that does not mean those authorities have the right. While I believe there should be severe consequences from arresting Ava Starfire, I do agree that it should be possible. It would be one of those cases, or should have been, where as soon as she was detained, some agent of CONCORD would arrive and force the Empire into releasing her to their control or moderate any sort of legal actions.

Just because it's possible to arrest Ava on a planet, does not mean it should be done without any interference from those whose jurisdiction is being stepped on. It is quite clearly a CONCORD matter in space, which is the whole caveat here, because afaik, there is no mention in PF of Capsuleers ever going down to the surface of the planet and comitting a crime, nor of going down to a planet and being arrested for a crime.

I believe that anything can happen in a universe as big as New Eden. Different police forces will do different things. Sometimes very stupid things, like arresting a Capsuleer.

tl;dr

I think whoever pushed for Ava's arrest in the MIO should be burned at a stake for being stupid. He wrote the order, so now he has to pay the price for going too far.

[Crucifire]

I sorta feel the same as Louella. I don't see how it would be an impossibility to detain a capsuleer once s/he is outside of the capsule either, since they wouldn't be able safely commit suicide to escape custody. Seems like the tricky part would be detaining a capsuleer in the first place.

Can't say I'm terribly familiar with the legal aspect of this, though.

[Gottii]

], which is the whole caveat here, because afaik, there is no mention in PF of Capsuleers ever going down to the surface of the planet and comitting a crime, nor of going down to a planet and being arrested for a crime.

Jita 4-4 states that this happens.  Actually they dont arrest Capsuleers, they execute them. 

Our characters "immortality" is based on a machine.  Its not actually impossible to turn off a machine.

[Arkady Sadik]

Heh. I replied to the IGS thread, but I'm not sure I should have.

If an RPer says they're captured on a planet, then they're captured on a planet. We've had quite a few story arcs in the past about people being reckless and going to planets and being told how stupid they are for that - would all not make sense if going to planets is all pretty safe.

It gets a bit difficult when you see them flying around while they're supposedly in captivity. Or, as in my case, chatting with others on a channel as if nothing had happened. Am I supposed to ignore that? Or is it an RP hint to pick up on? If I react on it, am I being interpreted as "URDOINITRONG"? Can I expect them to "not play EVE", basically, "just" because of their RP?

It quickly becomes easier for me to just ignore the IC story than to try to interact with it and risk OOC upset.

[Julianus Soter]

My reply to the IGS thread was specifically to demonstrate my character's incredulity to the story of the OP. None of it was meant as a "Your doin it wrong", because that sort of accusation is by default, an out of character accusation that breaks immersion.

Indeed, claiming that Julianus Soter's comment was invalid or 'wrong', in an out of character format, better fits the definition of the "your doin it wrong" accusation than what you reference, Ava.

Regarding the matters of prime fiction, there exists utterly no example in any news article, CCP-approved book, chronicle, or other Source that I'm aware of that references a planetary or faction police force arresting and permanently or otherwise detaining a capsuleer. CONCORD provides a carte blanche to capsuleer activities in Empire space, outside of actions towards or against other capsuleers, or that endanger the larger security of the Empires, which fund CONCORD, by supporting NPC pirate groups.

Faction police can fire on capsuleers directly at war with their respective factions, and can fine capsuleers vis-a-vis isk penalties for smuggling. That is all. They can't even touch the clone vats.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Jita 4-4 states that this happens.  Actually they dont arrest Capsuleers, they execute them. 

Our characters "immortality" is based on a machine.  Its not actually impossible to turn off a machine.

I specified going down to a planet, where CONCORD has very little authority. On stations (located in space, mind you), CONCORD still has authority.

Besides, I wasn't talking about being killed. I was talking about being arrested.

[Verone]

I see it pretty simply.

CONCORD polices as regulates capsuleer activity.

DED - deals with criminal and civil law.
SCC - deals with financial and business law along with taxation.

The sovereign navies respond against capsuleers based on their own standings and the standings that the DED set, also known as your security status (if an egger has -5 to the Federation, DED guidelines say he's free to be fired on by the Federation Navy, SDII et cetera, they're also fired on if their overall DED security standing is low enough).

To me, Capsuleers are above territorial law, which is why they're so feared or revered by most. Outside the capsule, they're pretty much untouchable by the sovereign powers. The DED are responsible for the apprehension and processing of capsuleer criminals, hence the DED bounty system and the sec status system, and are sometimes assisted with the information from the relevant sovereign law enforcement agencies that may have intelligence on a given capsuleer. The DED do all the heavy work, and the actual physical work.

Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.

I also never really understood the whole Capsuleer slave thing... it makes NO sense at all to me whatsoever. I fail to see logically how any capsuleer can be enslaved.