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[Morwen Lagann]

Ah. Makes more sense now. Thanks.

Pleas of insanity over here (successful ones anyway) often lead to somewhat lighter sentencing, which is why I was so confused. /o\

[Mizhara]

That is the general idea over here too. If you're insane (we don't use the term insane, our word "utilregnelig" roughly translates to "not liable for your actions") you'll usually face less 'punishment' and more 'treatment for your illness' but you'll still be removed from society until you're no longer a threat to it. In this case, it'll probably end the same way no matter what (his actions aren't in doubt, nor is his guilt), it's just a matter of what the case documents will say when all is said and done.

The one thing we know they'll say is that he's treated exactly as he has a right to.

[Chell Charon]

If he is convicted as sane, the punishment is that of limited freedom.

If he is deemed not liable for his actions, well there goes a lot more rights than just freedom of movement. How it stands in Norway I am not sure but I seriously doubt he will be allowed to run his finances for one?

[Jev North]

If he's found not liable for reasons of insanity, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't institutionalized and quite unable to own anything that's not small and made out of soft cloth for a good, long while.

[BloodBird]

If he is convicted as insane - likely the case as I see it - he won't be allowed to do jack-shit that most citizens do - freedom of movement, personal finances, living in his own home and so on and so forth. He will be under treatment until deemed safe for return to society. That part is likely never to happen. Odds are he will either he in forvaring or under treatment until his natural life ends. By all accounts the latter would be worse for him, for reasons already detailed.

As I see it it's impossible to martyr him in any way based on these two options. Either he's deemed a dangerous criminal and locked up - theoretically forever - or he's deemed to be mentally unable to walk the streets again. Either of these cases pushes him into irrelevance as a jailed criminal or a mental case under strict, civilized care.

It's more than I think he deserves, but I can't have my cake AND eat it too.

[Caellach Marellus]

I haven't misunderstood it at all. A verdict of insanity is more of a defeat to Brevik than a guilty plea.

A guilty plea makes him a political prisoner of far right extremist policies, a man being locked up from the world for what he believes in, and an icon for other people of his way of thinking to hold in reverence. Not that I agree with them in any fucking way possible, but he'd be locked up by the system for his beliefs.


Having him declared insane reduces everything he believes in to just being delusional ramblings of an unhealthy mind that needs help. No one will use that as a symbol to rally behind and the extremist right lose a potential icon, and everything Brevik wants to pass across as a message is ignored as insane delusions. That's a greater defeat for him.

Also as someone who's visited family on mental wards in hospitals (purely because it the best place to recover from the mental health effects of a stroke) spending life in an institute like that will destroy the man in a way prison never can. A verdict of insanity is by far the more harsh and devastating result for Brevik, and he knows it.

That's why he's trying to prove his sanity.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Well, they ended up declaring him sane.  He's got the maximum sentence, of course, but Im already seeing the awful comments starting to crop up on the comment sections of national newspapers here in Canada.  You know, the standard "Ha ha, Liberals just sent him to a resort prison, and we need to start kicking mooselims out of the country" sort of shit.

[Desiderya]

mooselims

You wacky canadian. 

Stupid comments in the comment section? You don't say? It's just the internet being consistent.
Personally I accept the sentence. It's a pickle, though. You declare him insane, he'll stay under lock and key probably much longer. You declare him sane, you fulfill him his wish but also acknowledge that people are indeed capable of such atrocities, and it wasn't 'an unfortunate accident'.
At the end of the day we should deliver judgement based on facts and the law, and not based on what we want to achieve, no?

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Oh, there are good arguments to be made on both sides.  Everyone involved knew Brevik was never going to be free again.  Even with this prison sentence he will serve his 21 years and then continually get Forvaringed.

He wanted to be sent to prison because he felt that it would validate his reasonings.  "No, he wasn't insane.  His methods were uncouth but there is a muslim problem and it is caused by liberals!"

Not that most people are going to see it that way, of course.  This ruling could mean that they have acknowledged "He wasn't insane, and we need to counter this with proper education.  Kill the ignorance, and you kill the reason for the crime to have happened."

The danger is that, in the meantime, there ARE people who agree with him, even if they are not (were not?) the sorts to go shoot up a camp full of liberals.

[Desiderya]

And I don't think that these people are more likely to get radical now, that it was decided that Breivik commited a murder while being legally sane.  If they agree with this ideology they won't sit down and believe that it is true what the 'ideological enemy' decides in court.

Cue the conspiracy shuffle.

In a similar light, I'd hate it if the remants of the NSU would get away with insanity. It doesn't change much for the culprit(s), but it does make it clear that these deeds were bred on extremist right wing territory that is really there, and not out of thin air.

[Natalcya Katla]

I'm personally relieved that he was declared to be liable for his actions, even though that's clearly what he wanted. I'd much rather see him become a martyr figure to a tiny minority of idiots who're going to be socially and politically ostracized for voicing those opinions anyway, than to see any political ideology, no matter how extreme, be treated as a mental disorder in our courts. Because THAT is a slippery slope, and Norway already has a bit of shady history in that regard.

Don't misunderstand me, I feel privileged to be a Norwegian, and I'm proud of a lot of things about my country - but I'm honestly uncomfortable with the fact that we have a court system that has the right to take away people's ownership of their own actions in the first place. Sane or insane, if you don't own your actions, what do you own? Not being held responsible for what I do would feel the same to me as not being acknowledged as a person, but just as a thing. If I were ever tried in court for something, and ended up being declared not liable for my own actions, that would feel like stepping into something imagined by Kafka.

[Vikarion]

I'm still irked that he gets a pleasant place to live. I'm not much of a fan of capital punishment, but mostly because I think it lets some people off too easily. I would really like to see this particular bit of scum rot in a soundproofed isolation cell for the rest of his life.

[lallara zhuul]

The difference between the punitive system in Nordic countries and most of the world is that no matter what the case is the person being punished should be rehabilitated and returned back into the society as a productive member.

In the case of Breivik I doubt that it is possible, but I guess here the exception makes the rule.

If you do not even try with the 'worst' then what is the point anyway.

I think that is the measure of a civilized society and I take my hat off for Norway in that respect.

[Lyn Farel]

I think that is the measure of a civilized society and I take my hat off for Norway in that respect.

Same. Even if we have lifetime punishments here they are always released after 25-35 years.

[Chell Charon]

I like the decision. Well done for Norway.