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[Senn Typhos]

rabble rabble

If I hadn't read the thread, I wouldn't be posting. And I think when pointing out when someone is too hellbent on being right to the point of ignoring the talking points of others, it's highly constructive to point out how nonconstructive the argument has become. Which, right now, is exactly where we are.

[Faraelle Brightman]

So a couple days ago, I wrote up a blog entry on this subject and stuck it on Gamasutra, meant as a sort of explanation for people on the outside of Eve.  (The editors featured it on the front page, yay.)  One of the major points I made was that if CCP had communicated clearly and unambiguously that they were upholding the earlier commitment to do vanity items only, much of the furor would have been calmed.  Instead they left the door open to interpretation and the mob ran with it.

So now the report of the CSM has come out and one of the acknowledgements from that is that they screwed up in the communication department.  I like to think that validates my reading of the situation a bit.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

So, crisis resolved (mostly). WW3, a cataclysmic thermonuclear war was averted, and thousands rest comfortably in their beds with active EVE accounts. Perhaps we can be content that multitudes that may have considered departing have chosen to reconsider, hm?

[Louella Dougans]

Lots of issues combined to make some players annoyed.

The underwhelmingness of the whole CQ thing itself. It's 1 style out of 4 promised ones. There's only 1 object that the avatar interacts with (the sofa). The lighting on it seems a bit funny. Spend 10 minutes, and you've seen everything that it offers.

The performance of CQ. It makes graphics cards sweat. Even when it doesn't, it adds to docking time, which if you're in and out all the time (doing in-space activities) is inconvenient.

The interface differences. Harder to tell which ship it is that you have active now.

Removal of the looking at ship view while docked, if not using CQ for performance reasons.

These things mean that the release is not very inspiring. Ordinarily, people would say "worst expansion ever" and keep playing regardless.

The prices of the NeX items aren't even a real issue. Claiming that was the key issue is rather misleading, I'd think.



Then there were these newsletters and emails that were brought out. They created the impression that CCP were ignoring the problems EVE has, in favour of trying to get players to pay more. This is poking a disgruntled bear with a stick. It didn't help.

And so "worst expansion ever" turned into "outrageous, I'm out of here" and so on.


Now, this statement by CCP/CSM looks to have addressed things, but only time will tell.


As for why people began seeing CCP as "the enemy", then it is previous PR disasters such as alleged dev favouritism, ingame event rigging, the whole "18 months" debacle, and various other things, such as saying one thing and doing another, that have helped create this situation.

Constant drip, drip, drip of things, rather than a single event.

They've lost some trust, and will need to do a lot better to regain it.

[lallara zhuul]

To me, these past few weeks have been very illuminating.

I'm perfectly aware that EVE, in its completely and utterly broken form, is the best MMO out there.

Since I resubbed, I have not paid a single cent to CCP for my time in EVE, its all been PLEX and if I play EVE in the future I will make sure that CCP will not get any money from me. Of course it is debatable that by playing by PLEX gives cash to CCP or not, for me personally its a moot point.

No money has been transferred from me to CCP and for me that suffices.

The reason why I will let my sub run out?

In the first two years or so, what I wanted from EVE and what I got from EVE was pretty much the same.
During that time I started to see what I wanted from EVE and what CCP wanted from EVE started to go into two different directions.
The next two years I was happy toying around with the PF, playing with the broken toys that CCP had provided, listening to the empty promises they made about fixing all that is broken.
Then TEA came around and broke my lovely little bubble where I believed that New Eden was a living and breathing universe where things happened by following laws of causality.
So I did the only thing a subscriber can do to show CCP what they were doing was something that I did not approve with.

I let my subscription run out.

Two(or so) years later Incursions were coming out, I got the five days and started burning ISK for the sub. Incarna was coming out soon so I could keep burning ISK, so I could check it out.

Incursions are what they are.

CQ is what it is.

The vision that CCP has for the future of EVE is something that I do not want to give my money or time for.

I will keep my toe in the community because the bastard in me will love the constant drama that ensues.
The constant state of shock that the community is in.
The innocent statements of surprise when the community gets buggered by CCP.
Which only happens because they empower CCP by burying their heads in the sand time and again.

Been there, done that.

I will check out Incarna with the free time that CCP will provide when it wants more of my money.
I will not give them any, I will just keep burning my ISK if I enjoy the content.
But as far as I can tell, it won't be worth the zeroes and ones that it is made up from.

Don't get me wrong.

I don't hate CCP, I do not hate EVE.

EVE is just something that is not worth my time.

I do love New Eden.

As a setting it is wonderful, but for some reason when CCP gives more information about it the worse it gets.
The same separation that happened with the game has been happening with New Eden in the past few years.
I do like my toys, I do not want to throw them out of the pram.
But once you find out that they all have been painted with lead based paint...
And the rubber wand that you have been taking out for your adventures turns out to be your grandmothers old dildo...

You kind of want to put the toys down and get out of the pram.

PS. If you have billions of ISK in your wallet, do a small calculation in your head on how long you can play EVE without giving CCP any money. It is quite liberating to see your wallet go empty for the time that you spend in game spinning ships. You kind of realize how meaningless the in game stuff is.

Just my 0.02 ISK.

[BloodBird]

Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:

"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."

Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.

are you kidding? I'm pretty sure the reason that this all went through in the way it did at all was because of the noise the players made. CCP wanted to see our actions, and we showed them. I see this as a victory for the community, and its something the gaming world isn't going to forget quickly.

And frankly we will never know if CCP buckled in over the constant whine (cheese included in this case, a full meal) or if they simply ignored that alltogether and listened to the few constructive concerns players made.

And frankly, we will never find out. If CCP admits to buckle in over the childish complaint and rage storm, that sends the message that players can cry over every minor thing and CCP will alter it, if only ot shut the whiners up.

If they ever state that the crying players had no effect on their decition and only the calm but stern complaints were listend to, people will keep raging that CCP don't care and don't listen - even if they prove to have done so, ironically.

Lose-lose situation for them, in that case. I am simply happy this chaming event is over with and hopefully resolved soon, the bad publicity tihs game got is likely more damaging in the long run than some non-vanity item in a store anywhere.

"EVE Online? That game where palyers rage about like imputent children over anything, even a simple vanity-item in a store?" - Most non-players of this game will not understand the context, and most articles I've read about tihs event has miss-interpited the issues players raged over. None of this has helped the game or community at all.

[Revan Neferis]

They addressed my concerns. Why wouldn't I be re-subbing? I haven't yet though, but that's just because I re-evaluate each time I'm re-subbing my subscription anyway.

And as for "much ado about nothing"... lol, I think not. The community reaction no doubt gave CCP something to consider.

I would be careful when using the word " community " without specifications. You certainly dont mean eve community correct? because that would imply at least the majority of around what 40 thousand players who pay subscription and we see logged in eve everynight and who you can't assume that they are or will be put on the same baskin as the 2% who actually bother using forums or around what 2 thousand players who decided to shoot the monument in Jita.
Important to remember that from forum users even you did have those who didnt support this whole " revolt " affair so when you refer to " community reaction " I take that you are describing " the community of the 2% ? playerbase who bothers using eve forums and who are against ccp's new policies.
I would even conduct an interesting statistic work if i bothered to find the time to compare how many players actually composes that huge ragequit megathread and see in % how much of that composes of the 40k around " eve community " players.
Putting things into perspective is a good way to start.

[Revan Neferis]

"EVE Online? That game where palyers rage about like imputent children over anything, even a simple vanity-item in a store?" - Most non-players of this game will not understand the context, and most articles I've read about tihs event has miss-interpited the issues players raged over. None of this has helped the game or community at all.

The generalization was uncalled for, as I pointed above there was no " eve community " tantrum, there was a " eve online forum community " reaction that like everything else on this debacle, got blown out of proportions.
As for the midia, can't blame them: drama makes good news and to make drama look even more dramatic is their job. So I'm sure the event wasnt misinterpreted by the media, it was what was reflected from the poor forum ragequit spammers posters who innundated at least 90% of the eve general forums plus a natural tendency of the media to make things tenfold worse than they are for their own use.

Did it have a good image for eve " playerbase? " no, it didnt. made everyone look like idiots with forks and sticks. Now, what about the game? Not sure and we will only have that answer in a near future. Ever heard that every publicity is good even bad one? Ive seen new players in game saying they came to " check eve ' because the press scandals and they wanted to see what eve was all about.
Yes, bad publicity CAN have good results. It's pseudo logic almost, basic class studies on any marketing University around. Sometimes as good as subliminal itself.
So yes, dont be surprised if we see numbers of subscriptions skyrocking again in the coming weeks. I wouldn't.

[BloodBird]

NeX is still too expensive. Fine, charge a lot of a monocle so it doesn't flood everyone's avatars, but a skirt shouldn't be so damned expensive.

When Establishments come out, how many of us will be wearing those Minmatar vest jackets? We need cheap stuff for the sake of variety when we all go drinking together, or whatever.

I believe they will keep a good balance between exclusive items ( i wouldnt call it overpriced, if they are exclusive they will be above average naturally ) and more accessible items. It's like this in any major MT games around so I suspect the model wont change much. Maybe they will go for limited time exclusive items too, ive seen around some games and they are usually good top sellers while they are offered. ( specially for collectors )

I'd like to believe there will be cheap items. But if a damn monocle is 1.4 billion isk, how much do you think tattoo sleeves, or dresses, or clothes that aren't just generics will cost? No one but the uber-rich will be able to afford anything but the very 'cheapest' items. I know I won't be able to afford anything from the store, so I'm going to have to continue handwaving Nikita's appearance.

That's a bit subjective because it depends of ccp's own market research on the actual playerbase condition x what is perceived as cheap by each one of us.
I can only give my own references on this regard, if you ask me, in terms of isk 1.4 billion is already cheap.  I will not turn this in rl money to not cause such discussion to rise here regarding who can afford or not, this is another matter.
Again in terms of isk, I'd say that something borthering around 10, 20 billions could be considered an exclusive collectors item with a certain public to afford it. More than that, although many could afford it, it would take a bit of more incentive to justify the investment.
For cheap, it also depends if ccp's intention is to make NEX accessible to new players too.  If yes, this is a complicated question because it would have to drag the values of common items down to something a new player with 30 days at space could afford and im sure this value is very minimal and wouldnt justify the development of the items.
So, yes im not sure how the " cheap" part would work, there is a lot to consider on MT behind the obvious.

The major problem here is, 1.4 billion is NOT cheap. Revan, not everyone can smoke a few billion worth of ISK on clothing just like so - even those who do will measure the cost of that shirt vs a faction fitted faction BS, for instance. I know that, for 1.4 billion, I'd have a carrier, fuel and if not all the mods I need, then nearly all of them. THAT is what 1.4 billion is worth to me, for instance.

Also, it's absurd from a RP pow. ISK is worth alot of money in nearly any currency the planet-dwellers use, anywhere. If I am supposedly able to walk the streets of any mega-city on any high-end planet, any clothing shop should sell stuff I can realistically buy. Even the most wealthy planet-dwellers buy clothign that ammounts to a few hundred isk, at most. Yet we capsuleers have to shelve out billions worth for a simple shirt? WTF? Is it made out of platinum, woven with high-grade true-silver and enchanted by the gods to make me uber?

No... It's just a shirt. It's made of cloth. I don't expect it to cost me my soul.

The monocles and other implant grade items? Let them be expensive, I don't care. The monocle is ugly and imho Revan looked ALOT better without it ;D

I just want to be able to buy a small assortment of clothing and stuff to make my toon look even slightly Intaki again, not this generic fella who for all we know, is a young Amarrian living in Stain x.X

Hundreds of isk for basic clothing. Thousands at most. Even then, whoever sold it will make absurd ammounts of money on us poor gullible podders

[Mizhara]

I don't really see it as all that absurd from an RP POV. Our economy is separated from dirtside economies. When there suddenly comes a store that caters only to capsuleers, and get perfect exclusivity on the capsuleer market, why wouldn't they pander to the wealthy? Sure, not everyone will be able to afford it, but go take a walk along the shopping district in your town and ask yourself if everyone can afford those nifty brand-name or designer clothes.

Most of us can't. We wear generic clothes because they're within our price-range. Capsuleers wear generic clothes because it's within their price-range... and some of us can afford to buy massively overpriced bits of cloth because they're made by a certain designer or marketed by a certain store.

You're not paying for the cloth. You're paying for the 'prestige' and status. Just like the ridiculous designer clothes in real life.

I don't see an RP issue with it at all, nor do I see a problem with it being exclusive to wealthy capsuleers. Personally, I'm not going to be shopping at the NeX store because I doubt I'll ever RP with the Incarnavatars, and I consider my in-space ships to be the 'real' clothes of a capsuleer. My own status symbols are my high-priced and expensively fitted combat vessels I plunge into combat with little hesitation. This still doesn't mean I have any problem with NeX store items being exclusive. Hell, I like it.

We're not entitled to free/cheap carriers, faction ships or supercaps in Eve. Why would we be entitled to cheap/free vanity items of an exclusive nature?

Besides... if you've played the game for a year or so, it really isn't that hard to get ahold of the 1.4 billion for a monocle, or less for the rest of the items. Or for that matter, the money for a carrier, or a faction ship or whatever you are after. It's all a matter of what you personally prioritize getting, over what you're willing to forgo to get it, just like with everything else in life.

I am a paramedic with a fairly lousy salary. I have bought a brand spanking new Alienware m17x r3 laptop because I chose to set aside a little money and forgo spending it on fancy clothes or that nifty sound system for the car, or whatever else... because I prioritized, and because I know I'm not entitled to anything for free.

Why should Eve work differently?

[Revan Neferis]

The major problem here is, 1.4 billion is NOT cheap. Revan, not everyone can smoke a few billion worth of ISK on clothing just like so - even those who do will measure the cost of that shirt vs a faction fitted faction BS, for instance. I know that, for 1.4 billion, I'd have a carrier, fuel and if not all the mods I need, then nearly all of them. THAT is what 1.4 billion is worth to me, for instance.

Of course but as I said it's subjective, depends of each player and not only their wallet per se but their priorities as well.
What does 1.4 billion is worth really its the balance between " how easy it is for you to get it x how long it would take ".  Too many variants on each individual to even start debating that.

Also, it's absurd from a RP pow. ISK is worth alot of money in nearly any currency the planet-dwellers use, anywhere. If I am supposedly able to walk the streets of any mega-city on any high-end planet, any clothing shop should sell stuff I can realistically buy. Even the most wealthy planet-dwellers buy clothign that ammounts to a few hundred isk, at most. Yet we capsuleers have to shelve out billions worth for a simple shirt? WTF? Is it made out of platinum, woven with high-grade true-silver and enchanted by the gods to make me uber?

No... It's just a shirt. It's made of cloth. I don't expect it to cost me my soul.

It depends of the cost of your soul I guess lol. But nah, of course it makes sense but it isnt difficult to understand what ccp is looking at. I believe that we could take that NEX " noble exchange " like the most expensive Haute couture out there. ( despite the terrible discrepancy on items fashion and description)

The monocles and other implant grade items? Let them be expensive, I don't care. The monocle is ugly and imho Revan looked ALOT better without it ;D

The monocle is terrible lol. And I dare saying, like any uber expensive fashion item out there, they are ugly and ridiculous expensive so I think ccp at least made that stereotype fit.  ooc, i bought it for collector items, I think it's priceless to have the first most expensive item of the NEX, if nothing else for the mark of its introduction and all controversies around it.  So yes for my own collection.
IC, not much choice there, I doubt that Revan's insanity would let her escape from the monocle's fate. She finds it highly fashionable btw. ( goes to say ). And of course to endorse the rp aspect that Revan is one of the capsuleers supporting NEX, ( will come an ISD interview soon about it ) so it's only logical that she will have to endure the sleepless nights having to be awaken and aware because Jade has engaged on a single quest to shave her other eyebrow for great justice.
The pains of rp!

I just want to be able to buy a small assortment of clothing and stuff to make my toon look even slightly Intaki again, not this generic fella who for all we know, is a young Amarrian living in Stain x.X

Hundreds of isk for basic clothing. Thousands at most. Even then, whoever sold it will make absurd ammounts of money on us poor gullible podders

I would make a bet on basic clothing landing around a few millions, maybe 10, 15 to start but I'm not sure. Until we know if cpp intends to make NEX available to new players as well, will be difficult to understand the pricing policy.
But I guess we will when new items starts to be released.

[BloodBird]

That's true. I'm guessing what I'm really asking for is what many others want too; simply a greater collection of possible clothing/dodads hair-cuts etc.

Ultimately, I don't care if vanity itemsare only for the really really rich - let them be, they are after all vanity items.

Guess if I had made this clearer at first it would not have conflicted with the 'I want cheap vanity items' line I basically delivered earlier.

I wan't a better range of options for toon custumization, not for avatar-RP (dear gods no, did that in WoW, not impressed) but to make my 2D poirtrait look more defined. I'd love to be able to see from someone's avatar what race, bloodline and gender they are. Sometimes, on some toons, tihs is near impossible on a first glance. That might be a good thing from genetic viewpoints, but clothing and hair-cuts and tatoo's etc. are depended on culture, not genetics.

Meeh, in the end, I'll just wait and see. If they ever implement it, I'll be more happy than I am.

[GoGo Yubari]

They addressed my concerns. Why wouldn't I be re-subbing? I haven't yet though, but that's just because I re-evaluate each time I'm re-subbing my subscription anyway.

And as for "much ado about nothing"... lol, I think not. The community reaction no doubt gave CCP something to consider.

I would be careful when using the word " community " without specifications. You certainly dont mean eve community correct? because that would imply at least the majority of around what 40 thousand players who pay subscription and we see logged in eve everynight and who you can't assume that they are or will be put on the same baskin as the 2% who actually bother using forums or around what 2 thousand players who decided to shoot the monument in Jita.
Important to remember that from forum users even you did have those who didnt support this whole " revolt " affair so when you refer to " community reaction " I take that you are describing " the community of the 2% ? playerbase who bothers using eve forums and who are against ccp's new policies.
I would even conduct an interesting statistic work if i bothered to find the time to compare how many players actually composes that huge ragequit megathread and see in % how much of that composes of the 40k around " eve community " players.
Putting things into perspective is a good way to start.

Well, I think we could debate the exact meaning of community in depth in a thread all its own, but that's kind of beside the point. I mean community in the casual manner. The percentages of people involved are pretty difficult to discuss, but when a lot of the community's opinion-leaders take up the cause, I think I can say "the community reaction" with confidence.

On a tangent, I think it's actually pretty brilliant for CCP to have formalized a mechanic for the community to reveal it's opinion-leaders. That's exactly what the CSM is. On the other hand, I think that what elections and politics are too, heh.

[Revan Neferis]

Well, I think we could debate the exact meaning of community in depth in a thread all its own, but that's kind of beside the point. I mean community in the casual manner. The percentages of people involved are pretty difficult to discuss, but when a lot of the community's opinion-leaders take up the cause, I think I can say "the community reaction" with confidence.

On a tangent, I think it's actually pretty brilliant for CCP to have formalized a mechanic for the community to reveal it's opinion-leaders. That's exactly what the CSM is. On the other hand, I think that what elections and politics are too, heh.

Let's remember that CSM was elected with what, 8, 95 of playerbase vote? Somenthing like that, so I wouldn't call them even closer to be community leaders despite whatever labels and titles they do have on that regard. It's fashionable, it's a great PR stund by CCP, it works to direct the media around but it's a farse. Although I admit I have a highly biased opinion about CSM because i hate it since its inception, so take my words with a grain of salt.

And yes, about community its a delicate term and I particularly dont like it when people generalize it. I see it tossed around very often around here, community this, community that without actually accounting for what they really are. It's a poor term that can be easily misplaced to use as propaganda for opinions that arent really reflecting the reality of a situation.
It gives the impression of a much larger consensus about something that isnt really there.

[Merahl]

(well made point)

Mizhara's post is the most compelling explanation I've seen yet for the cost of items in the NeX store. Personally, I'd still feel things would be overpriced if they halved the costs, but I'm a poor newbie saving up for my first cruiser. I've been given to understand that they're planning to release more items with a broader price range over time.

But Miz is right: If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy, why shouldn't our trademarked, brand named jackets cost as much as a small city? Would someone like that ever want to be seen wearing something off a rack in Wal-Mart?