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The Serpentis stole one of the six Soltueur-class Titans from the Gallente Federation?

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Author Topic: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.  (Read 6239 times)

Mizhara

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #15 on: 21 Jun 2011, 20:12 »

I'm with Ulf here. The Matari is an advanced civilization with good understanding of technology, psychology and so on. The Voluval being 'technology indistinguishable from magic' is how I've seen it from the very beginning. While not perfect, it's certainly overwhelmingly accurate enough to keep the practice going even in an 'enlightened' society. I took that idea a bit further with the Gripdjur clan, letting it build it's spirituality and faith on technological and scientific bases, acknowledging that you don't need to truly believe... as long as you accept and understand the effect of rituals and spirituality.

The Voluval marks are 'truth' as far as I'm concerned. I've seen nothing in PF that says otherwise, no matter how much 'bleeding hearts' or 'wrongfully exiled outcast' RPers spin stories that says otherwise.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #16 on: 21 Jun 2011, 20:23 »

I actually interpreted Minmatar technology to be in a different scale of measure in terms of technology. They've "futurized" something that would be seen as ancient and anachronistic. I haven't read "Ray of Matar" or anything, but doesn't sound too farfetched that the Voluval measures off of DNA and all that.
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Casiella

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #17 on: 21 Jun 2011, 20:34 »

But what's it measuring?
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Ulphus

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #18 on: 21 Jun 2011, 20:44 »

If the Voluval is 99.9% valid, that means that you only miss one sociopath per thousand sociopaths, but if you only have one sociopath per 1000 people, then for every sociopath you detect, you probably get a false positive on an innocent person.  (note that these numbers are wild guesses to illustrate the situation, assumes only two options, and that the answer is a yes/no option; and therefore should be taken with a large dose of salt)

So, even with 99.9% valid detectors, half your exiles will be (more or less) innocent.

So sure, there's a level of unfairness on a bunch of the exiles, but I imagine that such a level of accuracy might still be considered acceptable to a lot of people in the tribes.

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Saede Riordan

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #19 on: 21 Jun 2011, 20:49 »

But what's it measuring?

evilness
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Mizhara

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #20 on: 21 Jun 2011, 20:55 »

Brain chemistry. Everything that a person is, mental issues and all, sloshes around in your skull. The voluval analyze this, then marks you accordingly.
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Casiella

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #21 on: 21 Jun 2011, 21:04 »

I don't think everything it supposedly indicates can be measured chemically, certainly not at the ages at which it's administered.
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Mizhara

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #22 on: 21 Jun 2011, 21:10 »

I don't see why it wouldn't.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #23 on: 21 Jun 2011, 21:11 »

For Seri:

Quote from: Chronicle: Tattoos
The Voluval is the sacred coming-of-age ceremony for the Minmatar. It is here that the individual transforms from a child into a fully recognized member of their tribe. At the height of the ceremony the presiding shaman will finalize the ritual by invoking the Voluval mark, where the soul and destiny of a person are said to be revealed through the emergence of a tattoo on the recipient, the secrets of which are closely guarded by the Vherokior mystics who kept it alive during the long centuries of subjugation.

The Voluval is considered the most sacred mark a Minmatar can carry, and in some rare cases can change his life irrevocably. Although the significance attached to the Voluval mark has waned considerably in today’s Republic, certain marks can still see the recipient cast out from his clan and tribe, and conversely certain marks can lend the bearer much acclaim. In nearly all cases, however, the mark falls somewhere between these two extremes and the bearer moves on with little effect.

Quote from: Ray of Matar
    Vormar cleared his throat before replying: “Yes, thank you Eliza for coming right to the point. As you know, if you’ve witnessed a Voluval before, those being tested undergo a special treatment by the spirit conductor overseeing the ceremony. This treatment involves direct injections into the heart and the ventral root area…”
    “What kind of injections?” Eliza interrupted.
    “Well, a large quantity of tyrosine is injected into the heart, which then, through metabolism, is turned into melanin by the body. Frankly, I’m not sure what exactly the mixture injected into the ventral root area consists off; it’s a closely guarded secret of the chemists that prepare it. Only a few of the ingredients are commonly known, among them are acetylcholine, oxytocin, calcitonin, and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide.” The names were clearly just as unfamiliar to Vormar as the rest of them, but at least it was something.
    “And what does it do?” Eliza probed further. Vormar didn’t seem annoyed by Eliza’s discourteous questions; he was probably used to all kinds of weird or silly or rude questions from those he was preparing for the Voluval.
    “Magic!” Vormar said and smiled. “No, seriously speaking, I can’t tell you with certainty. The melanin spreads all over the body through the blood stream, but only the small bit that is affected by the other injection is actually used. The rest flushes out of the body. Now, the real mystery is what the ventral root injection does. We only know what little the chemists that prepare it tell us: that it connects with the sub-consciousness and then uses the free-flowing melanin to form intricate marks on the body. These marks become a permanent feature of the person’s skin, a permanent tan so to speak that alters according to the skin color of the person to be constantly visible. They describe that person’s inner-self; what kind of person he is deep down. I’m afraid that’s all I know, and I guess you’ve heard it many times before.”

I recall entire threads speculating about how the voluval injections might work (possibly on the EM forums). I'm with Ulf: my understanding is that it's a genetic and psycho-chemical test of your proclivities which outputs a reading on your skin, like a much more complicated version of a pregnancy test giving a plus or minus. It says something true about you, and the clans have learnt to act on what the test reveals.

Others will, of course, interpret this completely differently.
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Casiella

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #24 on: 21 Jun 2011, 21:29 »

I don't exactly think that the brain chemistry of a 14yo determines whether she'll be the prime minister someday...
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Acerba

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #25 on: 21 Jun 2011, 21:30 »

I don't see any reason to assume that the Voluval is an accurate measure of a person's innate personality or tendencies.  After all, The Outcast is written from a third person omniscient perspective (how else would the author know about the ritual, the obscure Amarrian law, and the Sisters of EVE's efforts when even the Gallente are unaware?), and there is no reference made to the ritual's efficacy.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it's part of a coming of age ceremony, and most of the people who undergo the ritual would consequentially be adolescents.  This is pretty important when you're talking psychology because the brain wouldn't be fully developed.  This is a very big deal.  It's why the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) has different versions for adolescents and adults.

Of course, even if the ritual is just an example of self-fulfilling prophecy (a phenomena which has been demonstrated to have profound effects), it's still culturally useful.  It provides a nice, tidy way of explaining the way people work, and it gives individuals a path to walk.  Those who undergo the ritual don't have to worry about what they're good at or what they should do with their life, because it's been conveniently laid out for them.
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Casiella

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #26 on: 21 Jun 2011, 21:32 »

Didn't Istvaan write that chron?
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #27 on: 21 Jun 2011, 21:52 »

Didn't Istvaan write that chron?

I believe he wrote the Vo'shun chron. Hadn't heard about him being involved with Ray of Matar or Tattoos.
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Casiella

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #28 on: 21 Jun 2011, 22:02 »

Yes, but doesn't that one refer to folks who get certain marks being outcast?
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
« Reply #29 on: 22 Jun 2011, 00:56 »

Yes, Istvaan did write that chronicle. Here's the text where he says as much, from the Selective Atheism thread.

I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.
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