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[Raze Valadeus]

So...

I'm a little late to the conversation (sorry Kita) but here's my thoughts:

If you don't want to play a Republic-minded Matari: Don't.

If you want to play a tribal-minded Matari that's still loyal the Cartel: Go ahead!

Here's the thing, what if you took the "tribe" to a more metaphorical meaning? What if Kita views "tribe" as "family," and that would mean the Cartel is her tribe? She can be completely anti-slavery and still be loyal to the Cartel (Raze is anti-slavery and still serves the Empire...albeit, he's not a shining example of patriotism, but meh).

Perhaps Kita realizes that the Cartel serves the interests of freedom more than the Republic because it doesn't force people to hate the Empire and feed them propaganda to fuel the war? Maybe she doesn't have any beef at all with the Republic but finds that service in the Cartel makes her free to make decisions and take action where the Republic wouldn't allow her to?

There's a lot of reasons why Kita could be loyal to the Cartel, anti-slavery and still be a benevolent person. I've seen a lot of "pirates" who are far more benevolent than any of the Empire-based "good guys."

[Victoria Stecker]

What Raze said, honestly. People and organizations that break the mold tend to end up with a few extra enemies - look at KotMC and the fact that their policies mean that many other Amarr loyalist organizations don't like them, even though they're in the militia.

Also, bear in mind that we don't have a ton of fixed PF saying "this is what true matari are like." If you feel that Nikita can remain true to her heritage as a sebbie while working for the Cartel, come up with an explanation for why that doesn't make her 'not matari,' and enjoy a thoughtful debate when you encounter characters that think she's a traitor. And when you encounter characters with no interest in such a discussion, dismiss them as self-righteous crackpots too mired in their own prejudices to see the good that Nikita is doing (or trying to do).

Personally, I think it'd be pretty easy - Nikita is intensly loyal to the Cartel, it is her family, her tribe. She has recently realized that she can no longer support slavery, but doesn't really have anywhere else to go, so she's determined to work within the Cartel and within Curse to try and fix it. Where a hardline matari would rather see the Cartel wiped out, Kita wants to see it improved. In the end, either result is beneficial to the republic and the matari people.

I think of all the races, the Matari are the hardest to look at and nail down what a 'true matari' is, OOC. In character, people are welcome to believe whatever they want, but I would be hestitant to make any such statements, given that they seem to be the most varied race out there. For example, you have a large contingent of them living in the Federation, you have a huge chunk of them living in the Empire, both slave and free, you have a decent number of them in the Cartel (At least, I think it's dominated by minmatar, even if they don't discriminate), and you have a great deal of variety within the republic itself. You have Matari that want to ignore the Empire and just work on improving their own lives, you have Matari that want to burn the Empire to the ground. When the Sansha invasions first started, tons of Minmatar characters declared quite loudly how happy they were that the Amarr were getting a taste of invasion and enslavement - conveniently forgetting that Matari slaves were among the uplifted.

So yeah. I'd call it a pretty diverse bunch. And definition of 'true matari' is going to exclude 90+% of the population.

[Lyn Farel]

For KotMC there is something to know though : we might have been in a very different IC position if we were not active and one of the most prominent FW corps working for the Empire. What allows us to go head to head with other amarrian loyalist organizations is our deeds. We can backup our positions and mindsets by our actions and results, and that denies to the political enemies the opportunity to call us people speaking out of thin air, blabbering too much and acting too little. Secondarily to this, we have a very decent pvp force, and thus, some military strenght to deal with.

Keep that in mind when you are going to oppose a mainstream while still staying in your native faction. It can be important.

Well let me put it this way:

I don't want to leave eve. Its honestly the only thing that keeps me from being completely miserable and hating myself. Rping is fun, and I don't want to stop.

My issue is this:
I don't want a pure matari character. I don't think I'd have fun with a pure matari character, I feel they'd get boring and stale and stop being fun to RP after a while. I'm having a lot of fun with Nikita, my issue is that playing her in the direction that I have fun in, means that I get a lot of flak IC and don't have many allies. And I get a lot of flak for OOCly as well, for trying to go in too many directions, as if, if I'm not purely one thing or another, I'm trying to do too much at once.

I want to play eve, I want to play Nikita, but I can't play Nikita and have fun playing her the way I want, if it means I have no friends and a huge pile of enemies.

Well, getting flak ICly, its normal, you will always get IC flak whatever political side you choose.

Getting flak OOCly ? Wtf ? Are the people you are talking about still worth to be friends if they behave like that ? Or maybe the word was too strong ? Maybe they are just annoyed because they do not understand or see clearly your line and new mindset ? You look like not to see it clearly yourself (thus, this thread), so once you will get decent and solid justifications for your new mindset (Raze brought some good examples too), you will be fine. If people continue to screw up OOCly with this, uh...

[Merdaneth]

I glad you made clear what this 'change' was about. I don't know you as a player, and Merdaneth knows very little about your character. However, his 'hypocrisy' radar immediately detected something was amiss in your declaration, and he does dislike it a lot. In fact, Merdaneth mentioned your OOC reason as your real IC reason for posting it (being able to RP with friends).

I agree with the others. Basically there are three options:

1. Convince sufficient others to play with you in the way you want them too (this has apparently failed)
2. Change your style of play
3. Leave Nikita for what she is and start a new character (maybe return to her later)

I would really suggest you just change your character. When you talk about not wanting to be reduced to a stereotypical Matari, I don't think you really fear that, I think you are afraid of giving up your well-developed character who's sotry design you treasure.

Perhaps you could even weave your actually reasons into your story, that way it makes it easier for you to play it convincingly. Make being ostracized a primary motivator for your change. Try to breed understanding for the Angel point of view from a position of weakness and dependency rather than one of strength. It could make for a nice story arc: a woman of strength who finally breaks down under all the pressure and expectations and seeks comfort with the Matari.

[Saikoyu]

My views, and keep in mind I'm a theory crafting RPer these days, so salt to taste.

Looking at the IC points, I don't see much problem with your direction, like you said, its a valid one.  If I may restate, your goal is to change the Angel Cartel to be more of a new tribe that would take in outsiders that are shunned by the Republic.  The elimination of slavery more or less follows from that as slavery is the creating of more outsiders I suppose you could say.  I think a problem you might be having is you don't know how you are going to do this, beyond the general work inside the Angels angle.  I think that once you have a path laid out to your goals things will become easier, even if your path can never be accomplished in game. 

As for other RPer's, one options is that you don't need to change your character, you need to change their perception of your character.  To the Matari, you must seem like someone they would back.  After all, are you actually shooting at any Matari ships, harming any Matari citizens?  You're even offering to help take care of that dirty problem that no Matari wants to talk about, the outcasts.  And to the Angels, you have to be the same thing.  Are you really working against them, aren't you bringing in more manpower, better PR, increasing the possibility of the Angels actually being invited into the Republic instead of taking over a single system like last time?  As long as the two sides don't talk to each other, and why should they, it could work.  Of course, it could all blow up in your face, but that might be fun as well.

Anyway, my two isk.

[Myyona]

Perhaps Nikita is simply a visionary Angel that is arguing that slavery is not in the best interest of the Cartel due to some logical reasons. Thinking about it makes me suspicious about if Angels actually keep slaves for personally use or only dabble in the trade due to the money involved.

I might need some help here to come up with really good arguments that are bound in practical and not humanitarian reasons as that seems to be Angels way of priority.

[Mizhara]

The practicality is simple. Remove slavery for profit from the equation, and the flak they get from the Tribes would be immensely reduced. The clans prey on each other as it is. A little piracy thrown in from the Cartel (especially if 'justified' by 'it's what's best for our people' and so on) is criminal and making an enemy out of them, sure, but it's not something that can't be worked with. The Tribes worked with the Angels once, before they got rabid and performed slavery for money. Removing slavery from the equation would lend itself heavily towards far less Republic activity aimed against the Angels, and we should all know the horrendous amount of Angel ships are 'sploded on a daily basis. Reducing those costs would alone be more worth than the profit from slaveraids which only fuels the fires burning away Angel ships from Republic space on any given day.

In short, the Angels would fall quite a bit down on the priority target list compared to the Sansha, Amarr and other aggressors who are slavers.

Hell, the Cartel would probably receive a few cloak and dagger contracts from the Republic itself given enough time as a non-slaver but criminal organization in Republic space.

[Merdaneth]

The practicality is simple. Remove slavery for profit from the equation, and the flak they get from the Tribes would be immensely reduced. The clans prey on each other as it is.

This practicality concerns non-existant NPCs. Their theoretical agreement or disagreement doesn't get Nikita more or less OOC buddies to RP with. The current question concerns getting closer to certain RPers.

[Mizhara]

Well, in that case it's fairly simple. Stay Angel, be 'in' with the Angel crowd. Renounce Angels and Slavery, get 'in' with the Matari crowd. In short, pick a side and show you're serious. It's the easiest way to get 'close' to any particular demographic of RPers.

[Myyona]

The practicality is simple. Remove slavery for profit from the equation, and the flak they get from the Tribes would be immensely reduced. The clans prey on each other as it is.

I am not entirely convinced that the Cartel leadership has any interest in having closer ties with the Republic. They likely enjoy the power and position they have right now and would not like to share it.

I find it the question whether the Cartel keeps slaves for own usage or not essential as it would help get an understanding of motives; do they do it out of necessity or convenience? If the slave trade is simply the best way for the Angels to generate trade outside of the Cartel, the way to reject slavery has to be found in an argument that explains why it would be more profitable not do this business.

For one, Nikita would not need to keep slaves herself; as a capsuleer she has plenty of other ways to generate wealth and slaves are an unnecessary business to venture into. Other arguments could be that the slave trade is too risky as business in general, due to the constant raids by capsuleers, and resources could be better spent elsewhere.  There are a lot of reasons why a business is not a profitable venture. I can come up with them if needed.

[Saede Riordan]

* nikita takes notes

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

Hell, the Cartel would probably receive a few cloak and dagger contracts from the Republic itself given enough time as a non-slaver but criminal organization in Republic space.

It already does, really. One of the routes into the Angel Cartel epic arc is via a Republic Security Services agent:

Hey man. 
 
If you’re out here in a shithole like Egbinger then maybe there’s a chance you can help me out with
something. We just had a bunch of Republic Fleet guys dock up and repair here. They’d been out in
Curse dealing with some Angel Cartel raiders. 
 
They were describing how the Cartel is having trouble right now with some other pirate groups.
Seems there’s a Guristas commander tearing them a new hole down there, as well as some Sansha
meandering about causing problems. From the sounds of it, they’re taking some significant losses. 
 
Anyways, I was hoping you could fly down and check it out. While the Fleet was docked up, I had
my boys go over their comms system. We’ve got ourselves the name of a Cartel agent who is
involved in dealing with the invasion. Abdiel Verat.
 
It may sound strange to hear it, “name”, but if you can find some way to deal with those Guristas
and Sansha, I’d be thankful. The Cartel may give us grief, but they’ve done good things for the
Minmatar people too, even if nobody has a damn clue why, or what’s in it for them.
 
All I know is that I’d prefer Cartel members to Guristas thugs and Sansha freaks. If you can, go and
deal with their problems. Just don’t go helping them too much, got it?

[Mizhara]

I know, hence why someone trying to further butter up the Tribals by going non-slaver (for further profits) would be quite understandable.

[Louella Dougans]

anyone who changes a stance on things, or does things which affect persons outside their own block, has to be prepared for the consequences, especially when previously opposed.

for example, Kybernetes was treated with suspicion when he was in that Electus Matari corporation, because he was an Amarrian. I think Elsebeth in particular was suspicious.
And, well, we saw how that turned out, 

I helped Mizhara and Havohej and Zuzanna retrieve 1M minmatar people from the Empire, but that doesn't mean Mizhara is now going to invite Lou to whatever social things Mizhara does, or vice versa. In addition to this, people on the ultra-conservative Amarr side argued against the whole thing, they still bring it up in conversation sometimes. On the other side, there were several Minmatar who were against it too, and some of them may make comments about it (not sure, not my field).
An amarr character interacting with minmatar ones draws flak from the conservative Amarrians. The minmatar characters will draw flak from conservative Minmatar as well.

People who change a stance on a topic , are going to be looked at most critically. There will be some who will say "How can they be trusted?" and they will be very hard to convince, and some will never be convinced, and will instead look for any opportunity to say "I told you so", and they would be justified in acting like that, as you can see with Kybernetes there. Some people may have thought they were just being paranoid, but then their suspicions were confirmed.

This would be particularly magnified, I think, with Minmatar groups, and an individual who is basically not one of them, who was part of a slaver group. Sansha, Amarr, Angel, miscellaneous, it would happen to all. Some will say "they cannot be trusted, they are not Minmatar (meaning a full-blooded minmatar raised in Minmatar space)", others will say "they cannot be trusted, once a slaver, always a slaver", and others will have more opinions. The individual concerned, who is saying "Look, I renounce all that" will be held to a much, much higher standard, and any slip ups, however minor, will be pounced upon by some, who will say "I told you so!".
Possibly order of suspicion from most to least might be: Amarr, other foreigner, part-minmatar, Ammatar, Minmatar. Amarrians would be regarded with most suspicion, for obvious reasons, whereas Minmatar would be regarded with least suspicion, being members of one of the Tribes and things of that nature.

By taking a stance on a controversial topic, it is inevitable that some will be alienated, and some will be permanently so. It is the Rubicon. Once crossed, there is no way back.

Also, rollercoasters, swings and roundabouts.



There are several exit strategies, some have been used by other characters in the past, that doesn't mean they're particularly good though.

Clonesplosion - backup does not have memory of past X months. Revert to previous behaviour.

Clonesplosion with amnesia - blank slate, choose to proceed in new direction, abandon all previous associations. Random returning memories can derail things.

Deep Cover Confession - Say it was all an act to help Your_choice intelligence service.

Imprisoned by Android Impersonator/Evil Twin - self explanatory. The Evil Twin did it (whatever it was)

Jovians - Jovians

I am Just Stepping Outside, I may be gone for some time - vanishing act.  roll new character.



Not everyone gets to go to the ball. But those that don't are often more interesting, as they have strong opinions about things.

[Ava Starfire]

Hey Kita.

I think a large problem with RP in Eve is that everyone assumes every player of a certain faction fits cleanly into some "mold". For example, the notion that all Matari RPers are "pro republic and anti slavery". Well, that second one kind of makes sense; find me neo-Nazi Jews or Gypsies, please. Kind of stands to reason most Matari would have deep issues with slavery.

Many, however, are not "die Amarr die" or "pro-Republic". Ava is neither; she hates slavery, certainly, but maintains open channels with a good number of Amarrians, many of whom are in FW corps or alliances known to be "proslavery" simply because she seeks a peaceful end to slavery, not the destruction of the Empire. Some reason Nikita couldnt follow a similar angle? Try to strengthen the Cartel, or whoever, via methods that maybe dont invole attack, but trying to arrive at some understanding?

As far as following Matari beliefs while not being loyal to the Republic... no problem. Do it. Ava dosent particularly care for the Republic, has openly stated this to her superiors, and likewise, distrusts the Federation. One can want to maintain the Minmatar culture outside of the republic, or even an organized tribe. Heh, I do this IRL every day, and have for 34 years. Pssst. A good portion of the things Ava has said to Kita IC regarding "being Matari" have very little to do with her political affiliations.

The IC issue, the ONLY IC issue I could see, has to do with Kita's actions being contradictory to one another; IE, Matari and Slaver, Promotes peace yet engages  in piracy, etc. Pick either or.

Not all Matari are "pro republic". It is OK to be for, or against. I am sure not all Angels are pro-crime; you can be for, or against, or for this and against that. Make choices and run with them.