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[Victoria Stecker]

So, we were having this discussion last night and I figured I'd bring it up here and see what we can pull together.

Based on the Vitoc Method article on the wiki (which may be considered PF given that the primary contributor is CCP Dropbear) it looks like there are fears regarding a mutation of Vitoxin that could travel between clones, but the general, run-of-the-mill virus isn't going to do so.

Anyways, is there any further PF talking about why a person couldn't be cured of Vitoc infection by cloning?

IMPORTANT NOTE: Vitoc is an important part of several people's RP and I don't want this to get anywhere near UR DOIN IT RONG. It is, after all, a big cluster and an occasionally mutating virus that is probably going to impact people differently.

We simply ran into a blank when trying to explain why you can't just scrap your body, have a new one grown from a clean, uninfected cell, etc. To me, it seems that the cloning issue was player-created for the sake of RP which would otherwise be circumvented by "You're a capsuleer now, just get a new body."

Thoughts? And if possible, PF sources to back them up?

[Desiderya]

Just a quick reply, without deep research. In the way I understood it, Vitoxin does change the victims DNA. While clones are basically blanks created from biomass, there is the part of the brain transfer and customization.

At the time of purchase, the customer undergoes a thorough examination and several tissue samples are taken. This is then used to construct a clone of the customer – a clone that receives the consciousness of the original at the moment of death, granting a new life.
//
The biomass is used to construct a functioning body. This body is complete in every sense, with fully functioning organs and peripheral neural system.[...] The immune system of the donor is crippled and the thymus is removed and replaced with implanted cells from the customer. The clone body will thus not reject any implant – this makes it possible to seed the body with stem cells from the customer. The clone’s body cells divide very slowly, allowing the new cells to take over in time. 

Interesting part includes the bolded and following sentences.
As far as the real transfer goes:

Clones are never bred with an intact brain as this is obviously very much dictated by the client. Once a clone is bought a thorough brain scan is made of the client to determine the shape of the brain and the placement of nerve cell nuclei. Then a three dimensional gel structure that matches the shape of the client's brain is constructed.

The conclusion would be that you can use clones you prepared prior to an infection as well as think about using your brain and a complete new body, although there is (besides the thrice damned broker in a certain novel) no hint in the PF regarding that possibility.

Another thing would be the psychological addiction, if there is any, which would still be relevant with a new body.



Sources:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cloning_%28Chronicle%29
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone

[Kybernetes Moros]

The conclusions I reached when it came up semi-recently were comparable to Desiderya's. Any clone based off post-infection samples would be 'tainted' and subject to the infection; any clone using pre-infection samples would be fine. As an extension, the likelihood of capsuleers having a sample of genetic material taken when they first enter training seems pretty high, as does that said sample would be under some of the heaviest security restrictions in the universe, lest vitoxin or whatever else start messing with their DNA. (If the damage was done prior to becoming a capsuleer, that's a different matter.)

As regards psychological addiction, it's my understanding that the vitoc itself could be injected without any serious adverse affects and still satisfy said addiction without the presence of vitoxin. Could be entirely wrong there, though.

Edit: Erp, as regards sources, take Desiderya's and add in this article.

[Esna Pitoojee]

EDIT: Fuuuu, Kyber and Desi got there while I was writing my post and basically covered what I was saying. Guess I'll put a condensed version up instead...

tl;dr -

- A clone-transmissible version of the Vitoxin exists.
- It is all but unknown "in the wild"; billions of Vitoxin infected slaves have not produced a significant share with this mutation.
- The only reasonable way to get it seems to be deliberate mutation in a lab, and this is more a case of "russian mutation roulette" than a reliable process.
- Once a body is infected by this form of Vitoxin, clones created using genetic stock from this body will be infected at well.
- "Clean" clones can be successfully created using genetic samples taken prior to the infection of a body.
- It is highly, highly unlikely that any of us would encounter this form of the Vitoxin.

[Invelious]

I pressumed the infection and or addiction resided in the consciousness, which is what is transfered during death to the new clone. no?

[Matariki Rain]

I don't read the article above as saying that you must use any cells from the client, only that Cromeaux Inc. commonly does.

I assume that it would perfectly possible to jump into a clean meat-puppet with a clean gel brain matrix and shuck off any genetic maladies, retroviruses, or what-have-you. It's part of what the informorph demi-godhood thing is about.

I'd be reluctant to say anything decisive about this, however, until we get the response we've requested to the questions raised by Elsebeth Rhiannon's compilation on cloning.

[Isobel Mitar]

As regards psychological addiction, it's my understanding that the vitoc itself could be injected without any serious adverse affects and still satisfy said addiction without the presence of vitoxin. Could be entirely wrong there, though.

My understanding from the Vitoc chronicle is that a person needs Vitoxin in their system in order to get the rush from the Vitoc antidote. From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoc_%28Chronicle%29 ( emphasis added by me )

Another new feature is the very pleasurable side-effect created by the antidote: for the first few hours after injection the receiver gets a very powerful euphoric sensation - as long as he is affected by the toxic virus. Both these extra features have helped bind the slaves to the drug, and thus to their slave-masters.

[Matariki Rain]

Edit: Erp, as regards sources, take Desiderya's and add in this article.

As a sideline, I think the Vitoxin article suggests that psychological attachment to the Vitoc high could be managed using a regime including MDMA/Ecstasy.

[Gottii]

Edit: Erp, as regards sources, take Desiderya's and add in this article.

As a sideline, I think the Vitoxin article suggests that psychological attachment to the Vitoc high could be managed using a regime including MDMA/Ecstasy.

<Corners the market on glowsticks in the Republic, waits for massive profit>

[Casiella]

Let's get some Sebiestor DJs up in here for a party, then.

[Saede Riordan]

Alright, so we've established that if you're infected prior to becoming a capsuleer, your original body is tainted, and you can't clone into a new body since the DNA used to make the new body is tainted.

However, why does your own DNA need to be used. We know clonejacks are a thing. Why can't non-identical DNA be used and just have the body sculpted to look like your old one? (which is what I thought was done anyway)

[Matariki Rain]

Part the first: speculation

Alright, so we've established that if you're infected prior to becoming a capsuleer, your original body is tainted, and you can't clone into a new body since the DNA used to make the new body is tainted.

I'm not sure that we have, especially given your following paragraph. (And technically, even if true, you could do it, but the new body would also have the addiction.)

Also, "Future Science" and genetech: even if you can't clean a "natural" sample well enough to use it reliably, what about building one from scratch? Get yourself gene-sequenced, have the sequence analysed for changes brought about by the Vitoxin, fix those changes in the genemap, and then build that sequence from scratch.

However, why does your own DNA need to be used. We know clonejacks are a thing. Why can't non-identical DNA be used and just have the body sculpted to look like your old one? (which is what I thought was done anyway)

I'm not aware of anything saying that a clone must carry your DNA. We know that one clone company usually does that, but even their description doesn't seem to say it's necessary.

Part the second: fact

In October 2010, Elsebeth Rhiannon did a literature search and compilation of all PF relating to cloning.

CCP Dropbear responded to that.

I'm going to quote Elsebeth's response to Dropbear's response, because it still seems to be the most rational approach:

Current CCP stance

CCP Dropbear was awesome enough to take a look at this and comment on his chronicle thread. Current CCP stance is that they do not know how cloning works exactly and what things are possible. They are working on deciding and clarifying.

Until then, I personally recommend against making explicit RP that relies on specifics of cloning. When the clarification arrives, someone will have to retcon, and the less we have to, the better. Everyone can do what they like, obviously.

(Please note that you cannot rationalize this advice away with "surely they will not change it", because they do not currently think it works the way you have played it, regardless of your current take. They simply do not have a definite opinion. Similarly, kindly do not try and convince me you have figured it out and know the truth. If a CCP storydev tells me they don't know, then no, you don't know either. Yes, this paragraph is based on actual events.)

So, with regret, I'm pretty much going to ignore vitoc-addicted podder clone plotlines. OOC, I think they're arbitrary -- we don't know enough that independent groups could extrapolate the same basic things -- and doomed to retconning. IC, Mata thinks the addicts have made the choice to retain their ancestral lines and pay the price in addiction, rather than building uncontaminated flesh but clearly severing their contact with their kin. Or they just don't have good enough genetechs.

[Borza]

Alright, so we've established that if you're infected prior to becoming a capsuleer, your original body is tainted, and you can't clone into a new body since the DNA used to make the new body is tainted.

Only with that specific incredibly rare strain of vitoxin.

An interesting thread, I have been having similar musings lately w.r.t. capsuleer-sponsored/controlled cloning of freed slaves... it seems to me this should work for both vitoxin and TCMCs at least if the group control cloning facilities such as in a Titan, Rorqual, or nullsec outpost. Obviously it's not practicable for non-capsuleer groups who can't match our resources.

[Rok-Yuni]

iirc, in the broker's case it was that the 'digital copy' of his clone data and DNA was taken after infection, so all clones made from said data were infected. not sure why each one was expiring faster, but as dropbear says, cloning tech is a bit wtf? still...

not sure if it would be transferrable to anyone who was not infected pre-clone.. as they could theoretically jump to a clean one and incinerate the infected body.

though that has been said a lot.

[Desiderya]

However, why does your own DNA need to be used. We know clonejacks are a thing. Why can't non-identical DNA be used and just have the body sculpted to look like your old one? (which is what I thought was done anyway)

The cloning article states the way Cromeux Inc. handles their clone manufacturing. I wouldn't go so far and limit it to "only they do it that way" since it is a rather convincing argument why they need customer DNA, although it is, of course, possible that there are solutions so far in the future we can't think but only dream of.
Their clones come without an immune system as a necessity of the process. It is generated on the basis of the customers stem cells, a process which should* be necessary, since the new grown brain is a 1:1 copy of the old one, which means that they have the same surface cell epitopes fitting to the old immune system. The alternative seems ditching the idea of any sort of immune system, which would suck and provide a nice idea for rp or the usual "we gots nanites!" approach which will, of course, fix the whole problem.
I'd prefer the 'pre-infection clone works" approach, since it gives plenty of creative opportunities to deal with the situation in any of the two (Cure, no cure) ways. Although the idea of a severe psychological addiction is interesting, since it is not too far fetched, that someone will get a relapse once he's in a new, clean body.


*I'm neither a physician nor a full blown biologist, so maybe there's someone around with a more profound understanding of the matter at hand ( immune system <-> cell surface epitopes <-> autoimmune reaction )