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[Creep]

I find the spy concept a facisnating one for this game because of the sheer amount of effort, and the potential massive damage the moment of betrayal can do. The hard part is the OOC/IC seperation. You got two options as a spy, which is throw OOC out the window, and trust that the people you spy on won't abuse the knowledge that you are spying. This option is impossible, nobody with any sane investment in their corp can ignore this OOC knowledge or not. So the only way to effectively infiltrate is to lie on both fronts, both IC and OOC. Now your lying boldface to the people you are joining. So now it sucks for them when the truth comes out because on their end it won't be RP, it will be asshattery.

TLDR I don't think it's possible for everyone involved to disregard it as RP with the potential consequences of an infiltration. There will be butthurt and there will be drama. If ya don't give a crap about the fallout then go for it.

Basically this, in terms of "strict" or "full immersion" RP. If you want to play the role of "The Spy" in your corp, complete with high-collared duster and face-concealing hat, while the other people play the traditional roles, and you all RP together in a friendly manner, then no OOC is necessary. In fact, you wouldn't even need to really spy — the information you give to enemies could be pre-arranged OOC with your corp-mates as an acceptable leak, or an opportunity for in-game conflict. If you want to actually damage the corp, OOC is probably going to come into it.

Personally, I have a character whose entire RP is based on serial corp theft, and most everything the char does relates to getting past corp barriers and into those delicious hangers (and wallet/BPOs, if possible). Then again, I'm more "RP-Lite" then 'Immersion'*, and so my in-game actions are merely guided by the RP, rather that the two being enslaved to each other.

Is it bad Role Play? Not inherently. Some people play the game a certain way, and wear the appropriate Role Play as a coat for flavor and personal enjoyment. Others play roles and stick to them in their game-play come hell or high water. If you Role Play your way into the corp, rather than getting in by talking fully OOC to someone on IRC, then I'd say that it's a Role-Played Infiltration.


*Alternatively, it could be argued that it is pure immersion, as both the role play and the reality of the situation are identical.

[Mizhara]

Creep here is pretty much right. Of course, there will be drama and butthurt about it. That's a fact of all successful infiltration, heists and major losses that come about as results of said infiltration. That's not the point, really, at all. I'm not here to argue the morality of infiltration, on an IC or OoC level, but about it being an IC act to begin with.

Almost all RP does have a few OoC interactions. Hell, depending on who you RP with, there's a lot of them. (Oh, awesome. Thanks Backstage for letting me Ctrl-I italics into a post.) Does that mean that you not RPing hugglebuddies with them becomes less RPy? It's less IC? I talk to some of the slavers I've struck in my time in Eve, even gained some OoC trust and understanding, while still hitting them IC on Miz. Does this make said IC actions less IC? I think we can all agree... it doesn't.

Same with corp theft, infiltration and so on. If the character you use has an IC reason to infiltrate and gain the trust of the corporation, it's RP as far as I'm concerned. All the OoC implications are there, of course, but the actions performed in the game itself is still RP. Even on an alt that's paid to do it, or work for your main due to ideological or otherwise relations that makes them loyal.

Miz recently gained access to one Lutinari Syndicate corp hangar. Currently not exactly something major in it, but imagine if it was. If I now picked it all up, hauled it elsewhere while suddenly pointing all Lutinari Syndicate people in a fleet so the hostiles could drop in on us and destroy them all... is it less IC? No. I can't really think of a reason Miz would do it, so chances of something like that happening are zero, but if it did happen, it's still an in-game action and thus an IC event... and when motivated by an IC reason...

How can it be anything but RP?

[Lyn Farel]

I don't think anyone said that this was not to be considered as RP, at the contrary.

The issue at hand is more if I am correct : is IC/OOC infiltration harmfull for the community ? I say, yes, in any case.

Well if it is done purely OOCly by someone of our little RP community to someone else of the same community, it will cause feuds and dramas.

If it is done ICly, same thing., because as much as you can avoid feuds between 2 RP entities around wars, fights, and sensitive stuff like this (just look at the UK/VI war thread and it will be obvious that when people know that they are enemies ICly and what are their positions, they can mutually enjoy the thing), you can hardly avoid feuds between 2 RP entities when one is delusionned and betrayed by the other one.

Sidenote : take my example, I am not even trying to approach Bach ingame OOCly or ICly for what he has done to AM in the past. It is not grief or anything else related to vengeance, but pragmatism. It shatters the community.

[Mizhara]

I don't see how it's harmful to the community. Any more than it is harmful to the rest of Eve, that is. I really don't get this attitude that RPers should somehow be immune to the exact same tactics, strategies and weapons that everyone else in Eve face. Or better yet, should handicap and cripple ourselves compared to others in Eve. It's a non-consensual game. This applies to RP as well, especially actual in-space RP where you go out and shoot the crap out of your enemies. I think it's for the most part a case of HTFU and smell the ashes. If Bacch for some reason decided to infiltrate and cripple EM somehow... fuck yeah! If he had an IC reason... well, I'd still want to kick his ass for it, but I'd just have to take my hat off and give him a bow for a successful and well played infiltration.

He'd become an enemy and someone I wouldn't trust with 0.02 ISK, but I'd still have OoC respect for him as a good opponent and player.

Eve is a game where this stuff is freakin' encouraged by the Devs.
RPers should HTFU and accept that this game isn't about hugglefucks and consent.

[Louella Dougans]

some consider allowing things to get off the ground before shooting them down to be more sporting.

and as i recall, there was much angry words exchanged when that dude whatsisname effectively disbanded Ushra'khan, and other incidents in the past.

People were outraged that opponents were going to try to take advantage of an incident, or knew about it a day prior, and did nothing about it.

No "well played" and taking off hats there.


anyway, in the end, i think it is just another one of EVE's mechanics, that is very difficult to RP with, and only a handful of people have ever managed to RP it well, the other people trying to RP with it only managing to annoy and confuse others.

[scagga]

In my view, the proponents of infiltration in this thread are answering the questions they want to answer, while the questions that ought be asked and addressed in this discussion remain unanswered.

Questions that have been asked and incompletely answered

Q1- Can infiltration be considered as RP? 

A: Yes, in principle.  I believe that there are no people who have posted in this thread who would disagree with the principle that infiltration is a part of RP and inalienable with current EvE-playing practise. 

However, this answer does not address the issue with alts, and the conflict that this has with RP (it can be stretched to a comparison to 'God-moding').  The proponents of infiltration are skirting round the issue or have so far been answering it with 'matter' that is not relevant.

If you have read the thread you will see where it was avoided.  If you were instead just replying to the OP ('my 2 cents posting') or last post only ('single issue posting'/'snapshot posting'), you run the risk of missing it and not contributing to the full answering of the question, bringing the matter to a false closure.

-------

Q2 Is infiltration and betrayal detrimental towards the recipient player experience?

A:  Mixed replies.  The majority have stated that it reduces enjoyment of their game and in most cases leads to OOC conflict.  There are unfinished core discussions on the principles of playing EvE (i.e. for mutual or solo enjoyment).

-------

[Ciarente]

.

Miz recently gained access to one Lutinari Syndicate corp hangar. Currently not exactly something major in it, but imagine if it was. If I now picked it all up, hauled it elsewhere while suddenly pointing all Lutinari Syndicate people in a fleet so the hostiles could drop in on us and destroy them all... is it less IC? No. I can't really think of a reason Miz would do it, so chances of something like that happening are zero, but if it did happen, it's still an in-game action and thus an IC event... and when motivated by an IC reason...

How can it be anything but RP?

I'm not sure I follow the connection between the initial assertions about using a specifically-rolled infiltration alt and the possibility of a character with a RP history ICly betraying a corp.

[Mizhara]

Different scenario intended to ask the question "If it's RP if I'm on Miz... how is it not RP if I'm on Katashi?"

Edit:

Most characters get specifically rolled for one purpose or another. Falcon alts. Hauling alts. Trader alts. R&D alts. Whatever. Alts are in most cases there to do something the main can't prioritize, for either IC or OoC reasons. Most people manage to incorporate that very easily into their RP. In my own case, I make it fairly public by having my three 'core' mains (Gherena, Derena and Miz) part of the same family. The rest of them are all tied to the main core of characters through either backstory or simply because they enjoy getting paid quite a bit while fearing retribution if they betray them.

If I use an alt for infiltrating and breaking a corp/alliance... is it any less RP? The characters are still distinct personalities and with different priorities in life, which means some alts I could never use for certain things, while others I can since it's well within their characterization.

I'm still not going to argue the morality of it, since I really don't feel crippling ourselves and going "I'm an RPer! Stop using the tools the game provides against me!" does anything but severely harm the RP community. HTFUing and accepting that we're all Eve Players whether we RP or not is more likely to provide a stronger and better RP community in general.

[scagga]

I don't see how it's harmful to the community. Any more than it is harmful to the rest of Eve, that is. I really don't get this attitude that RPers should somehow be immune to the exact same tactics, strategies and weapons that everyone else in Eve face. Or better yet, should handicap and cripple ourselves compared to others in Eve....It's a non-consensual game.

Your usage of the term 'community' has undermined your entire post.  I suggest you refer to its definition. 

There is a general abstract notion, which I'm sure you are well aware of and also believe in, that having amicable OOC relations within our community, with resolution of emergent and outstanding acrimonious issues, is a good thing. 

I'm sure you're equally aware of the fact that malicious metagaming behaviour is viewed as poor form in many RP circles, not because it is a dark part of EvE, but that metagaming itself is in stark conflict with RPing within the traditional definition of the term.  The issue is not with infiltration itself, which we have already mentioned several times, but abuse in the form of metagaming whilst trying to maintain a pretence that it occurs under the guise of RP.   Using one character you control in infiltration against a target of another character you control is metagaming.  Any analogy to what RP is in any non-EvE convention shows that it is at variance with the norms and principles.

Eve is a game where this stuff is freakin' encouraged by the Devs.

Thank you for suggesting that 'because of dev' it is a worthy argument to influence our views/choices.  If this 'stuff' had caused significant losses to subscription earnings I would wager that they wouldn't be promoting it.  It is what has made EvE notorious, but none of these points add any strength to the debate that we're having because they are entirely irrelevant.

RPers should HTFU and accept that this game isn't about hugglefucks and consent.

Thank you for trying to define the right way to play an MMORPG, which by definition is an open-ended poly-game to be engaged with according to user preference.  On that basis a group of users with similar interests are within their rights to discuss what their views on good form are.  A strong community rests on shared values, or if that is absent, active respect of value plurality. 

[Mizhara]

I have no idea what you just said. Dumb it down for the derps among us?

[scagga]

I have no idea what you just said. Dumb it down for the derps among us?

I'm sorry if what I've written is unclear.  Please could you point to the area of my post that you would like me to explain further, or ask specific questions, because my time is limited and I would rather not painstakingly explain everything from first principles.

[scagga]

If I use an alt for infiltrating and breaking a corp/alliance... is it any less RP? The characters are still distinct personalities and with different priorities in life, which means some alts I could never use for certain things, while others I can since it's well within their characterization.

I have given reasons for why using alts to infiltrate a target for your main is not good RP.  I invite you to challenge them with a reasoned argument.

I'm still not going to argue the morality of it, since I really don't feel crippling ourselves and going "I'm an RPer! Stop using the tools the game provides against me!" does anything but severely harm the RP community. HTFUing and accepting that we're all Eve Players whether we RP or not is more likely to provide a stronger and better RP community in general.

The issue is not morality, so I don't see any obligation for you to explain it.  If you want to use the HTFU and accept wholesale infiltration escape I suggest you look at the quality of relations in entities that do so (e.g. 0.0. alliances) and see how that helps build a good community.  It's all evidenced, I'm sure you will agree, in their forum-posting behaviour to each other.

[Louella Dougans]

well, for example:

There are currently not many Blood Raider/Sani Sabik type characters around at the moment.

I believe this is detrimental to RP, as it means the factions that would be opposed to them, have no opponents to rp with.

A new BR organisation appears, and invites people to join. As it turns out, a lot of infiltrators do so, which would make a great deal of IC sense (Ministry of Internal Order agents, witchhunters etc.)

However, with the new BR corp full of infiltrators, it collapses in on itself, as the infiltrators work their schemes.

The anti-blood raider RP groups are now in a situation whereby they are back to square 1, in having no opposition to RP with.

So while infiltrating a new cult and destroying them makes sense IC, it can be detrimental to other RP groups OOC, by removing the effectiveness of an opponent.

"Death to Heretics!" when there are no heretics is a bit... odd.

[Mizhara]

That's actually not really a realistic problem, Louella, just like wardecs and other such things aren't problematic from a realistic standpoint quite simply because they're not worth the effort. Not until they have become an established entity which would make such efforts worthwhile. Besides, infiltration to the point of actually tearing down a corporation/alliance is fairly rare compared to just simple intel infiltration where you get memberlists and tactical information. Once they've reached a level of activity and membership where they can become a worthwhile target to spend time, ISK and effort on... they're no less valid a target (nor easier to infiltrate, harder in fact due to RP angles) than anyone else in Eve.

Scagga: The entire thing made no sense to me. Probably because I start losing sight of the red thread halfway into the post after I've had to reach for the dictionary the fifth time. As for your "alt's reduce the enjoyment of the game" argument, I see no need to challenge what is purely a personal opinion which isn't even remotely applicable to any overall community.

[Inara Subaka]

Long wall-of-text post, TL;DR at bottom.

some consider allowing things to get off the ground before shooting them down to be more sporting.

This has nothing to do with timing of the infiltration, however if it is done early it's a tactical decision to stop a problem before it starts. If Lou(character) knows she can hire someone to get inside a fresh BR coven, surely she's not going to wait till they are going full bore and taking lives left and right?

and as i recall, there was much angry words exchanged when that dude whatsisname effectively disbanded Ushra'khan, and other incidents in the past.

For very different reasons, and that's due to what most would call a faulty mechanic (the one where a single person has too much power to destroy an alliance without interference). Many

People were outraged that opponents were going to try to take advantage of an incident, or knew about it a day prior, and did nothing about it.

That was propaganda spin, nothing more nothing less.

anyway, in the end, i think it is just another one of EVE's mechanics, that is very difficult to RP with, and only a handful of people have ever managed to RP it well, the other people trying to RP with it only managing to annoy and confuse others.

What about people who infiltrate with their mains, with a clearly defined purpose for clearly IC motivations? Another thing to consider is that most infiltration work WILL be very confusing/annoying to those who don't have inside information as to the exact details of what happened, how they happened, and why they happened; even after the fact.

Q1- Can infiltration be considered as RP? 

A: Yes, in principle.  I believe that there are no people who have posted in this thread who would disagree with the principle that infiltration is a part of RP and inalienable with current EvE-playing practise. 

\o/ Exactly my point, not only is it ingrained into EVE but it's also a part of RP. PF if packed full of intelligence games between the various powers, sometimes resulting in sabotage and sometimes not; I see no reason to exclude it from the RP element of the game (actually, I see more reason to include it).

However, this answer does not address the issue with alts, and the conflict that this has with RP (it can be stretched to a comparison to 'God-moding').  The proponents of infiltration are skirting round the issue or have so far been answering it with 'matter' that is not relevant.

Alts, Mains, roommates, friends, complete stranger you're paying ISK, etc... There is no issue with any of them. Sure, there's less of a risk factor of the Alt turncoating (I've seen an alt turncoat on someone due to IC reasons), but it's also easier to detect (especially if it's a direct enemy of your main that you're attempting an infiltration on). I honestly don't see anything 'wrong' here to address.

Q2 Is infiltration and betrayal detrimental towards the recipient player experience?

A:  Mixed replies.  The majority have stated that it reduces enjoyment of their game and in most cases leads to OOC conflict.  There are unfinished core discussions on the principles of playing EvE (i.e. for mutual or solo enjoyment).

I play EVE to have fun, and to make it fun for the people I like if it's within my ability... Everyone else is an opponent in this game, someone that is in direct competition for resources or something for some reason. And I see this as being as much IC as it is OOC.

Ex: I like talking with Lou(player), but Lou(character) is a threat to Inara's(character) in some of her policies that she has. Inara(character) may at some point decide that Lou(character) is a high enough priority that she needs to be dealt with, but for the time being she has more pressing matters to attend to. If she didn't have stuff that was immediately pressing, Inara(character) would be doing what she could to remove Lou(character) as a threat (note: does not mean destruction of Lou's corp; there are various ways to accomplish this goal). If Inara(character) decided to do this, it would be very viable for her to hire someone to be on the inside for various reasons.  NOTE: This is purely hypothetical, I have no immediate intentions of doing anything aggressive in any nature towards Lou or her corp.

I have given reasons for why using alts to infiltrate a target for your main is not good RP.  I invite you to challenge them with a reasoned argument.

I'm going to take a stab at this one. I've yet to see a good reason against using alts aside from "ZOMG, THEY WON'T TURN ON YOU." and claims that it's god-modding.

Reasoned argument for it: If you're actually RPing the characters as separate characters instead of two extensions of the same character, they still retain their own 'identity' and the IC defection chance remains in place. You're also allowing for the chance that the infiltrating character can get 'caught'.

The issue is not morality, so I don't see any obligation for you to explain it.  If you want to use the HTFU and accept wholesale infiltration escape I suggest you look at the quality of relations in entities that do so (e.g. 0.0. alliances) and see how that helps build a good community.  It's all evidenced, I'm sure you will agree, in their forum-posting behaviour to each other.

Umm.... WHAT? I hope you're not implying that 0.0 entities are the only ones using infiltration. I can name a minimum of 5 currently active instances of infiltration in lowsec/hisec corps, 3 of which are heavy RP corps. And while it does make things rough for a patch of time, once most people get past the knee-jerk reaction they just shake their head and smile. Forums are part of the knee-jerk reaction, and some people get honestly butt-hurt over things like this, but the average intelligent person will go "well shit, they got me".

Do you get mad if someone out-wits you in chess, causing you to make a bad move and get yourself checked? This is the exact same situation.

There are currently not many Blood Raider/Sani Sabik type characters around at the moment.

I believe this is detrimental to RP, as it means the factions that would be opposed to them, have no opponents to rp with.

I agree with this, but also think that it has no bearing on IC decisions in regards to interactions with upcoming BR/SS corps/characters.

A new BR organisation appears, and invites people to join. As it turns out, a lot of infiltrators do so, which would make a great deal of IC sense (Ministry of Internal Order agents, witchhunters etc.)

Agreeing again. \o/ for agreeing.

However, with the new BR corp full of infiltrators, it collapses in on itself, as the infiltrators work their schemes.

Then someone did something right. The IC threat was neutralized before it became a larger threat to the Characters hiring the infiltrators/doing the infiltration, which was the goal of the situation... Unless I missed something?

I'm guessing that Lou(character) doesn't want Blooders running around willy nilly without someone trying to stop them. I also find it difficult to believe that Lou(character) would be upset about there not being any Blooders to rage about how red is 'so last years color' (being slightly facetious). Lou(player) may want an 'enemy', but we're discussing IC motivations and IC infiltration, and that means Lou(character) is likely doing what she can to counter the existence of Blooders (please, correct me if I'm wrong; I'm working on assumptions).

The anti-blood raider RP groups are now in a situation whereby they are back to square 1, in having no opposition to RP with.

Only one opponent? What EVE are you playing (honest question)? Every character I have is a part of a group of pilots, those pilots are temporary allies (temporary in terms of an immortal's perspective) while everyone else in the cluster is opposition. That nubbin that just graduated... he's either going to join one of the groups surrounding my characters, or he's going to be outside those groups and he's going to be competition for resources/space/market/etc... The way I play (which may be different than most) means that there are no "neutrals" in the grand scheme, only friendlies, hostiles, and future hostiles. Even my peace-loving characters are passive-aggressive against people that aren't in their 'circles'.

So while infiltrating a new cult and destroying them makes sense IC, it can be detrimental to other RP groups OOC, by removing the effectiveness of an opponent.

"Death to Heretics!" when there are no heretics is a bit... odd.

So... if there's no more BRs, you find the next most pressing group that's threatening your characters way of life. To limit yourself to only being opposed to just Blooders seems odd to me when a loyalist, highly religious, Amarrian woman has a wide variety of people that stand against what she's likely to believe.



TL;DR Infiltration doesn't seem to be bothering people, it's the fact alts are being used. I counter that good RP gives room for alts to be imperfect for their goal, or just hire someone to do it (it's actually not hard to find people willing to turncoat inside an organization). There's also OOC concerns about stopping an opponent that could be fun to RP with in the future when IC you'd do what you could while they were weak... This comes down to whether you make your infiltration decisions based on IC perspective or OOC perspective.