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[Usagi Tsukino]

Reply to Orthic to 'how should this be handled in the future'.

Personally I don't think you should have taken out everything OOC. It's not your job to decide what is IC and what is OOC and quite frankly I don't think you would have the right to decide that for John or for the rest of the community as a whole.

That said, and take this as you will because while I did browse some of it (I admit, I am a drama whore, so I was intrigued, looking for  moments  ) it was irresponsible for you to post everything raw without vetting it for personal information that could identify any player (the actual player).

Whether that actually happened, I don't know I didn't see it, but then again, I didn't read it all; just going by what I saw here. But any responsible organization that even pretends to be even psudo-journalists would do so (ffs even Wikileaks has been sitting on documents because of possible harm to US and allied soldiers).

I'm obviously not talking about Vent passwords, killboard passwords etc. I'm talking about stuff that would give away John's (or anyone in his corp's) RL name, location, job, etc. Even if it's simply deleting a line in a log and replacing it with 'REDACTED', that would be the responsible thing to do in this case.

Again, I will be in disagreement with most people here when I don't think it was wrong for you to have published it, I just think it was wrong for you not to have vetted it; again, not for OOC/IC information - but for as I stated, OOG information.

[Bataav]

Ok, my thoughts on this are heavily laden with hindsight so you'll have to forgive me...

Perhaps a way this could have been managed as a potential for good RP while still revealing the data would have been for ANN to approach I-RED OOC and said.

"Ok, we've been passed a whole load of internal I-RED data, channel logs, vent fleet recordings, screenshots and ANN is going to do a Wikileaks style public release. We've taken a look and there's some OOC personal stuff mixed in there. Can you take a look and point out anything that mustn't be included and what's left is going live in 24 hours."

Let the source know and everyone's comfortable. I-RED get to make sure no personal stuff is in there, ANN get their breaking news (without the shit storm), and the IGS announcement that sent everyone running hoping for something juicy would have been better managed.

Sure, that doesn't change the nature of the majority of the data being of very little IG value (and yes people I have listened to the vent recordings, read a lot (not all) of the logs and checked out the standings screenshots). That said, I agree that the content could be interpreted and referred to IC with a little effort.

But like I said... hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I don't think ANN should be put off from a similar release in the future should someone else come forward with a secret inside information that'll bring down alliance x, y or z. It'd be a shame if they did.

This kind of scenario has so much RP potential, this time it just fell short.

[Z.Sinraali]

^that guy beat me to it.

Allowing I-RED to go through it pre-publishing would have been the most optimal shitstorm-prevention solution I can think of.

[John Revenent]

I-RED would have probably went with it as well. For RP sake, since when was it a bad thing to look bad in the media every once and awhile hmm?

[Cheiftan]

In Responce to Orthic

Well the way i look at this, Infiltration and or Information laundering is a valid tactic, we may not like this but at the end of the day thats the way things go.

And i do see your point on the OOC and IC divide, however...

I do feel these files should have been combed more carfully, things such as an OOC chat about what somone had for dinner isnt really the greatest dump to put on the IGS.

This is how i would have dealt with it if it was me, i would have firstly read all the data and picked relevent infomation such as OOC chats of dealings with shadey friends, this would have let people percive our plans in an IC way.

Just dumping lots of raw infomation on an IC News Feed just felt like a malicious attackon us which is fine if you have an axe to grind with us OOC.

I feel a more tactile aproach would have serverd better purpose.

Weve analized alot of the data at hand anyways and apart from a few hic ups here and there it seems pretty fine.

Ive lost my trail of thought...

Cheif

[Gabriel Darkefyre]

What parts of these OOC logs are viable information IC?

What parts of OOC logs in general are viable IC?

For me, I would say anything that has In Game Relevance is fair game. For example, if you are OOC talking about a Character you have just bought off the Character Bazaar and I'm Physically in Channel when you speak about it, then I've just heard a Rumour from a "Reliable Source" about a potential link between the newly purchased Character and the Main that the Player is representing.

If I'm reading about it second hand through a Chatlog, then it's a Rumour heard from a Third Party Source and so inherently less Reliable.

In both Cases, Verification would be performed IC if I needed to be certain on a fact, however it wouldn't be the first time that someone has gone off Half Cocked on the Basis of an Unverified Rumour that turned out in hindsight to be wrong

------

On the other hand, knowing that, for example, the Player behind John Revenant has a fondness for Hong Kong Action Films isn't really relevant in Game so therefore isn't relevant IC.

[Andreus Ixiris]

Actually, to be perfectly honest the funniest thing about this whole debacle is Damar Rocarion moping about Intaki casting sad eyes at everyone and saying how the I-RED Ventrilo comm logs are "hilarious".

[Jade Constantine]

Another irony is how this whole business actually made me feel quite good about the "rp community"

[Jade Constantine]

+++

I wonder if some good can come out of all this and we could collectively agree with the principle/convention that any OOC material (chatlogs/discussions/vent recordings and such) should not be brought into an IC context without the permission of the person you are talking too.

I find that respecting ooc discussions in this way does make me feel a bit better about myself - I'm intrigued to find out if its something other people agree with?

Again speaking personally (though to a degree referencing our alliance principles) we don't like this whole "chatlogs at dawn" culture that sometimes develops on top of IC conflict and debate.

Is why we (in SF) have an internal convention against ever posting ooc chatlogs / private mails without the permission of the other party (unless of course the other party does it first in a partial or edited fashion and decency requires both sides of the argument is heard).

Could this be something we could collectively agree on ?

[Rodj Blake]

I agree that if you're going to use a leak for RP purposes, you should try to separate the IC stuff from the OOC stuff.

Indeed, I've been saying so for some time - the No.Mercy leak is one incident that springs to mind.

[Chowda]

What are you people upset about?  There's nothing there embarrassing or damaging. 

Corp espionage is part of the game, and this little bit of it seems mostly harmless.

[Cheiftan]

LOL you know Milo if you wanted a better leak you could have just asked me, im more than happy to give you some juicy goings on providing john dosnt shoot me before i do so.

[Jade Constantine]

What are you people upset about?  There's nothing there embarrassing or damaging. 

Corp espionage is part of the game, and this little bit of it seems mostly harmless.

For me its about a little out of character courtesy as much as anything. If people go to the bother of chatting to one another about rl stuff and clearly are on the level of players NOT characters I feel its a bit rude for one side to unilaterally go "chatlogs at dawn" and post up the logs without permission just to try to make the other side look bad.

I guess its unenforceable as conventions go - but I'd like to think there would be some consequence to the reputation of people doing this routinely.

IC revelations - I'm much more comfortable with in general (but ic-wise wouldn't happen in this format from Jade and SF anyway due to our respect for diplomatic nicety)

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

In my opinion it's also about simply keeping the OOC/IC divide intact. If I'm chatting OOCly with someone about how we can set up a conflict between our characters, I don't want to see that chatlog leaked as some sort of "proof" that Shin is colluding with some random enemy.

For what it's worth, Jade's proposal about not leaking OOC materials unless everyone involved agrees is spot on. Hell, I know if ANN came to me some day and said "we have this OOC chatlog, and we want to stir up trouble for you with it", I'd probably help them spin it in the most scandal-producing manner. 

[John Revenent]

Looks like CCP nuked the link going to ANN's site, and all the Logs posted on IGS.