Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Tyzzara]

Rote Kapelle hates Star Fraction, IC and OOC.

Have to say I am a member and frankly you should convo every damn one of use before making OOC statements on our behalf.

MINE anyway....

[Bacchanalian]

So like everyone's saying everyone else is mad at everyone.  Just posting to say I'm not mad, and I don't think anyone in Rote Kapelle is mad (maybe excepting Sak, but he's always mad, comes from sexual frustration [♥ you Sak]). 

So yeah.  I don't think people are that mad.  Soter seemed a little mad.  But who knows.  I just wanna shoot people so I can print out more killmails, post them on the ceiling above my bed and fap to them.

[Jade Constantine]

Well after all the drama and excitement it does seem like a solution is beginning to present itself. As anyone who had a nice cup of tea and read through the complete unabridged chatlog I had with Verone can see the reason I contacted him in the first place was to suggest we put aside the ooc needle and and resolve to fight each other with a little bit of professionalism in space.

So lets do that.

I think perhaps the answer here is probably to cut out the middle man and for us to have a chat directly Bacc and Tyzzara and Cassius etc and see what can be achieved.

The broad sense I get from this thread splitoff is that while most people are pretty happy with the actual war between SF and Moira (and whoever moira brings as support etc) the majority would prefer less actual local/forum crap and a lot less IC/OOC linkages and slipovers (like the binding of an IC Moira ceasefire to the restoration of OOC respectful interactions that Verone proposed - that did (inadvertantly I'm sure) cause much of this angst.

So lets forget that entirely. Verone will have nothing to say about the Moira/Fraction war from this point onwards on any kind of OOC level and we'll say thank you but no thank you to any future involvement with a Verone negotiation role.

In exchange we'll largely ignore Veto in the Moira equation (though will of course note any future involvement should it happen via even-handed campaign reports of the kind we've already posted).

What we'll probably do re - IGS in an a couple of days (or whenever the next significant event occurs in the war) I'll post an IGS SF war report thread and collect the various factual accounts given so far in the Moira thread so people can follow the conflict without wading through the off topic material. Hopefully that can trigger a general improvement in behaviour from all sides.

IC wise - we'll return to the initial position I made clear as SF lead diplomat that Julianus Soter is free to approach us at any time with a request for peace and to ask our terms but any such terms will need to be presented to the council of Free Captains and voted. This must of course be done in a fully IC fashion. And in return we'd ask Julianus to refrain from speaking about matters of "OOC hate" referencing other people and get back to speaking only for his own corp in the future.

Until then the war will continue as it should and we'll all try to get back to fighting in space rather than on forums. It does have a lot of amusing potential and lets not deny ourselves that by getting all twisted out of shape on an OOC forum war.

On the broader point of SF's roll in the "rp community" and seeking to build bridges etc - for the immediate future we'll continue to hold out an olive branch on the OOC level and I'll offer everything I offered to Verone in the late night conversation to anyone prepared to meet us honestly and discuss these things who occupies a neutral position.

I'd still like to resolve issues like the in-game ooc channel ban and would appreciate anyone who could put me in touch with the moderators there for a respectful dialogue on the issue.

So what I think we've all learned here is that trying to bind OOC agreements "to be nice to each other" together with "IC imposed ceasefires" is never a good idea and children really shouldn't play with fireworks!

Lets move on and see what can be achieved OOC respect wise while blowing each other to pieces in-game.

It has to be a sensible move now Right?

[Saede Riordan]

I can respect your position, and your desire to change and move forward and would possibly be willing to help with OOC discussions, I honestly don't know who will be open to reaching out in this regard, but honestly, I think this was handled decently, and Jade, the only thing I could see OOCly that would be considered poor form during these events is:

1. Making the OOC bridge building dependent on the end of the IC conflict, because that means the IC/OOC divide isn't as firm as it needs to be. Veto and RK's involvement or lack their of in this conflict should make absolutely no difference on an OOC level.

2. Responding to Soter's goading here and letting things get somewhat heated between you, Verone and Soter.

[Jade Constantine]

1. Making the OOC bridge building dependent on the end of the IC conflict, because that means the IC/OOC divide isn't as firm as it needs to be. Veto and RK's involvement or lack their of in this conflict should make absolutely no difference on an OOC level.

Yep I agree completely. I think this is where things have gone wrong. Ending the Moira war (or not and just having fun fighting it) should have absolutely nothing to do with resolving OOC issues and I greatly regret my misjudgement in not more firmly rebuffing Verone's suggestion from the moment he mentioned it as a precondition to resolution.

2. Responding to Soter's goading here and letting things get somewhat heated between you, Verone and Soter.

I don't actually think I did respond to goading here really. I know Soter appeared to be upset (as did Verone) but I still don't really understand why they are that angry about what happened I must confess. I think the chatlogs do show there is absolutely no grounds to consider I "betrayed" any element of discussion or negotiation between us and I did precisely what I promised to do in taking that proposal to the alliance to decide on it (which since I explained to Verone we are a democracy rather than a dictatorship - is how it had to be).

[Shae Tiann]

With respect, Jade, people have a tendency to connect your IC mindset with your OOC mindset. Posting emotionally-involved OOC material on Backstage in connection to IGS rage really doesn't help. Everyone else on these forums could do with remembering this, as well. As soon as you get involved emotionally, the game isn't fun anymore.

One cannot approach someone OOC and say, "I want to mend bridges IC, are we good now?" There has to be IC effort involved as well. I find asking for IC help OOC and then claiming no contact was initiated IC to be ridiculous; however, had it been myself in Verone's position, I would have suggested an IC meeting -- starting with a public request for a talk followed by a private office discussion -- to cement things IC. So, Verone, you fucked up there

Verone also shouldn't have brought up any part of that discussion -- apart from mention of being brought in as mediator -- on IGS. Jade should have acknowledged Verone's role as mediator, rather than scoffing and suggesting she never would have asked him for help. Verone was asked to negotiate in a supposedly IC war, Jade would have gone to him IC. End of story there.

No negotiation was ever done on the part of brokering a temporary ceasefire for Veto upon Star Fraction assets; it should therefore have been understood that if SF pilots are nearby, Veto pilots will consider an engagement. It wouldn't be personal: Veto are pirates, ffs! Hitting expensive targets for fun and profit is what pirates DO. That it was in support of Moira. assets was, for Veto, entirely coincidental. The SF pilots might as well have been camping a gate for all the Moira. tower mattered.

Uh. No offense, Jules!

This could have been a simple matter of, "We were attempting to negotiate, but some of our pilots thought to take a shot at your tower anyway and got rolled by a group of outlaws." Which is exactly what it appears to be, from the viewpoint of an outside observer.

Sending angry OOC messages blaming Verone for the actions of his pilots was a bad move, Jade. You hit Verone's "I don't give a fuck"-button squarely. IC rage is understandable and entirely acceptable, but it would have been in your favour to say OOC that there were no hard feelings, and that IC is only IC.

Two misunderstandings have exacerbated the situation with regards to Veto and Star Fraction:
1: Verone's position as negotiator should not be confused with the actions of the pilots under his command -- he is the Glorious Dictator, after all, but if he doesn't say so, they won't know not to, will they?
2: Likewise, Jade's position in requesting mediation should not be confused with the actions of pilots under his(her, IC) command. Particularly if he doesn't tell them he's trying to start a mediation dialogue with the targets, hmm?

If connection between the CEOS and their pilots there was intended, it should have been agreed from the very start that all engagements against each other -- AND Moira assets, until a cease-fire could be negotiated (because let's face it: nothing says "we don't care" like an open attack during negotiation) -- should be avoided until a consensus could be reached.

IC, you all should have known that, too. (I'm looking at all three of you, Verone, Jade, and Jules. Rote Kapelle is a non-issue in this situation, because they were just doing what they do and would have engaged whether Veto and Moira were involved or not.)

I find this entire situation, including the lengthy shit-slinging forumrage, to be FUCKING ridiculous.

It's far too late to call a halt to the trainwreck that is IGS, but swallowing a little pride to admit you goofed and want to make another stab at improving relationships both IC and OOC would go a good way toward making the situation fun again.

[Saede Riordan]

Shae summed it up there faaaar better then I ever could have, props to her.

[Jade Constantine]

With respect, Jade, people have a tendency to connect your IC mindset with your OOC mindset. Posting emotionally-involved OOC material on Backstage in connection to IGS rage really doesn't help. Everyone else on these forums could do with remembering this, as well. As soon as you get involved emotionally, the game isn't fun anymore.

One cannot approach someone OOC and say, "I want to mend bridges IC, are we good now?" There has to be IC effort involved as well. I find asking for IC help OOC and then claiming no contact was initiated IC to be ridiculous; however, had it been myself in Verone's position, I would have suggested an IC meeting -- starting with a public request for a talk followed by a private office discussion -- to cement things IC. So, Verone, you fucked up there

Verone also shouldn't have brought up any part of that discussion -- apart from mention of being brought in as mediator -- on IGS. Jade should have acknowledged Verone's role as mediator, rather than scoffing and suggesting she never would have asked him for help. Verone was asked to negotiate in a supposedly IC war, Jade would have gone to him IC. End of story there.

No negotiation was ever done on the part of brokering a temporary ceasefire for Veto upon Star Fraction assets; it should therefore have been understood that if SF pilots are nearby, Veto pilots will consider an engagement. It wouldn't be personal: Veto are pirates, ffs! Hitting expensive targets for fun and profit is what pirates DO. That it was in support of Moira. assets was, for Veto, entirely coincidental. The SF pilots might as well have been camping a gate for all the Moira. tower mattered.

Uh. No offense, Jules!

This could have been a simple matter of, "We were attempting to negotiate, but some of our pilots thought to take a shot at your tower anyway and got rolled by a group of outlaws." Which is exactly what it appears to be, from the viewpoint of an outside observer.

Sending angry OOC messages blaming Verone for the actions of his pilots was a bad move, Jade. You hit Verone's "I don't give a fuck"-button squarely. IC rage is understandable and entirely acceptable, but it would have been in your favour to say OOC that there were no hard feelings, and that IC is only IC.

Two misunderstandings have exacerbated the situation with regards to Veto and Star Fraction:
1: Verone's position as negotiator should not be confused with the actions of the pilots under his command -- he is the Glorious Dictator, after all, but if he doesn't say so, they won't know not to, will they?
2: Likewise, Jade's position in requesting mediation should not be confused with the actions of pilots under his(her, IC) command. Particularly if he doesn't tell them he's trying to start a mediation dialogue with the targets, hmm?

If connection between the CEOS and their pilots there was intended, it should have been agreed from the very start that all engagements against each other -- AND Moira assets, until a cease-fire could be negotiated (because let's face it: nothing says "we don't care" like an open attack during negotiation) -- should be avoided until a consensus could be reached.

IC, you all should have known that, too. (I'm looking at all three of you, Verone, Jade, and Jules. Rote Kapelle is a non-issue in this situation, because they were just doing what they do and would have engaged whether Veto and Moira were involved or not.)

I find this entire situation, including the lengthy shit-slinging forumrage, to be FUCKING ridiculous.

It's far too late to call a halt to the trainwreck that is IGS, but swallowing a little pride to admit you goofed and want to make another stab at improving relationships both IC and OOC would go a good way toward making the situation fun again.

Its a generally useful summary (But bare in mind there was ZERO intention to approach to mend bridges IC from my side - Veto is an enemy organization in character and likely always will be and I didn't have the faintest intention of including Moira in that discussion until Verone brought them up).

And I do agree that some pretty crazy mistakes were made from everyone but one of the worst of all is to assume too much of the opposite number's state of mind and temper. I've read a couple of times about "jade raging" and posting x,y,z but I can tell you quite bluntly that while decisions were made by our alliance that I relayed ... for example -> veto ships involve in defense of Moira tower hence Verone is invalidated as a negotiator -> these decisions were not made or communicated in any kind of anger and its almost always a mistake to assume you know things about your opponents state of mind.

There is reason that "u mad" is a trolling meme. Lets not slip into the slightly more intellectual version of that on these forums please.

I mean lets look at the IC reality of Verone's proposal on Moira:

The leader of a set of -10 hostiles (OOC) offers to facilitate an IC meeting with the leader of a war-enemy. Due to time constraints said meeting is never proposed IC and doesn't happen and instead his pilots are seen to take sides on the battlefield (various ooc debates on the role of pirates notwithstanding - it is purely the choice of SF pilots to decide how to read their actions and react as we see fit).

So it is not exactly beyond all characterization and reason that this would be seen as invalidating any potential IC diplomatic credibility but that doesn't mean (and nor should it be taken to mean) that the entirely separate and OOC sought cooling off and repair of PLAYER relations should be impossible.

Basically from the moment Veto ships shared a killmail with Moira it was impossible Verone to play an IC role in negotiating a ceasefire or end to the war. Thats just roleplay really.

Now where I made a mistake is that even though the first evemail I sent to Verone said that I felt the IC ceasefire with Moira was unlikely but I wanted to continue with the OOC improvement of relations. I allowed myself to get a bit dispirited by Verone's own negative reply that suggested that with the Moira settlement off the table - everything else was similarly void, so giving up at that point.

But really so what?

The reality is SF is happy having Rote and Veto and Moira -10 KOS and continuing our war with Moira. Rote and Veto seem happy to have SF -10 KOS.

Moira may or not be happy about it - but if they are not then they still have the option of meeting our pilots in-character and proposing terms to end the fighting - thats Eve.

This is all well and perfectly good and I do not believe it invalidates the intentions I expressed in that long conversation with Verone seeking generally improved OOC relations with his section of the divided RP community.

The single most annoying that Verone has done during this whole business (from my perspective) is referring to an OOC conversation where we discussed our work and talked candidly about obviously ooc subjects - IC on the IGS to make an argument.

And yes, in retrospect perhaps I should have just raised a complaint and tried to end discussion at that point. But in strict IC terms there had been no IC discussion of his role as negotiator and no IC negotiations involving him as a facilitator had been held with Julianus Soter. I was actually trying (though perhaps again unwisely) to keep a firm IC and OOC distinction and continued to make that distinction here yesterday.

But yes ultimately, what a ridiculous storm in a tea-cup. More or less everyone is happy to fight IC in space and doesn't want "peace".

Most people seem to want a resolution of the OOC dispute and better relations between players so we can keep IC IC and avoid the wierd leakage of OOC hatred into IC propaganda and debate on the Summit.

So lets keep the wars and IC fun we want.

Lets resolve the OOC nonsense.

And everyone will be happy?

[Senn Typhos]

The upside is, I have plenty of hilarious stuff to read while I'm waiting to be re-subbed.

[Misan]

So like everyone's saying everyone else is mad at everyone.  Just posting to say I'm not mad, and I don't think anyone in Rote Kapelle is mad (maybe excepting Sak, but he's always mad, comes from sexual frustration [♥ you Sak]). 

I don't have much to add beyond what has already been said, especially due to not being involved in the recent events. That said, confirming myself as another non-mad RK member. That has pretty much been the case for the whole time, including the tower debacle (granted memory of it is a bit hazy at this point...). Frustrated perhaps, but never angry or mad. That stuff has been old history for me for close to a year now. Granted that hasn't been the subject of either of these threads, but figured I'd throw it out there while we were at it.

I will say that RK doesn't have SF set -10, but we're NBSI so no real shocker there. 

[Shae Tiann]

I quite agree, Jade. I wasn't calling for any sort of cessation of in-game action or IC rage Just... keep it civil OOC!

It's quite an entertaining and interesting development, from an IC perspective.

[Jade Constantine]

I quite agree, Jade. I wasn't calling for any sort of cessation of in-game action or IC rage Just... keep it civil OOC!

Which was my precise motivation for contacting Verone and beginning all this fiasco in the first place.

[Andreus Ixiris]

OK, I'm going to be neccessarily frank.

Jade, I can't pretend to speak for the entire EVE roleplay community, nor will I try, but fortunately, I don't need to. Certainly, most of the RP circles in which I have an involvement treat you and Star Fraction the way they do because of the way in which you act both IC and OOC. Certainly my infamous lack of respect for you and your corporation, both IC and OOC, stems from this.

I actually had a wall of text that was going to go here, but after I went over it, it seemed like it was superfluous and needlessly accusatory, so I cut all of it out.

Basically, I do not lack respect for you because "it's the done thing". I lack respect for you and Star Fraction because you and Star Fraction lack respect for me, and that is neither a complaint, nor a demand for respect - it's simply a statement. Neither of us afford each other the slightest degree of respect, and I believe - although, again, I can't really speak on behalf of the greater community - that the mutual lack of respect, both IC and OOC, is what keeps you and Star Fraction isolated from the rest of the community.

[Verone]

Fair play, the situation is calming down. This is a good thing.

Regardless of other people's change in stance, my opinion on everything that happened remains set in stone. I think very carefully and very hard before I make a statement or action, and I stand by everything I've said.

I'll also defend myself to the hilt with every shred of fact and concrete evidence available if my morals, personality or intentions are negatively called into question, hence me putting everything forward here so that people knew the full situation from my point of view.

In relation to most of the posts here, it's good to see people cooling off.

That said, there still seems to be a misconception with regards to the ceasefire for Moira, in a sense that people seem to feel that I was trying to help Moira out personally.

This isn't the case. The idea behind the ceasefire was simple. I was intending to take The Star Fraction out of the RP equation all together, to the point of there being nothing to post about on the IGS, nothing for anyone, SF or otherwise to gloat on. My intention was then to assist Jade in rebuilding bridges and trying to take care of past issues and conflicts, before helping to organise things so that SF could bounce back into the RP community full swing and not feel isolated from the rest of us.

In out of character terms, I couldn't give a shit frankly. I'm not one to hold grudges. I tried to help and I'm still of the opinion that it was spat back in my face despite the amount of effort and time I was planning to invest.

That's not my issue though, and there's little I can do about it. I hold a grudge against no one, and day by day if people want to behave in a civil and dignified manner toward me then I'm more than happy to reciprocate. The same goes for the opposite end of the spectrum, if people want to give me shit then they'll receive it back tenfold.

As for in character interaction Ethan doesn't consider the Star Fraction a problem, a threat or a concern. If anything he's mildly frustrated given the fact that he's an anarchist himself, and was once quite good friends with Jade and Revan while engaged to Naphtalia.

His confusion and frustration stems from the fact that Jade inexplicably became hostile with him and branded him an Imperialist sympathiser for no apparent reason. I'll add that this occurred around the time that myself and Jade locked horns out of character over his running of the first CSM, of which I was openly critical.

On an out of character level I've considered this very petty for a long time, and it's something that initially I endeavoured to change before the effort became too much and I got bored with it.

Frankly, after 8 years pretty much everyone I interact with knows that I'm as direct in all of my dealings as a gunshot to the head. I hide no facts and don't beat around the bush. If I have an opinion I'll express it concisely and directly, and this ruffles feathers with certain members of Eve's populace.

Fundamentally, I agree with the concept of what Andreus is saying. Respect demands respect in return, and I think that this is where SF's leadership has fallen flat in most cases.

Everyone who is civil toward me and respects me, gets exactly the same in return from in equal magnitude.

Like I said in private correspondence with Jade, and will say openly here : I hope things change, I hope that he can change, and I hope that perception of The Star Fraction can change. It's going to take time, and it's going to be drawn out, but it needs to happen.

There are too many ridiculous old feuds among the RP community that keep us divided and prevent us from doing much greater things.

[John Revenent]

Like I said in private correspondence with Jade, and will say openly here : I hope things change, I hope that he can change, and I hope that perception of The Star Fraction can change. It's going to take time, and it's going to be drawn out, but it needs to happen.

There are too many ridiculous old feuds among the RP community that keep us divided and prevent us from doing much greater things.

Well said, one of the reasons why they are now neutral to Ishuk-Raata. We were lucky enough to overcome our differences via IC paths as well.