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[Jade Constantine]

So on the Sansha issue – one problem to your perception is that we in the Fraction don’t tend to make a distinction between RP and non-RP corporations/alliances when it comes to action in space. Moira is not a significant power in the star cluster I think we can accept this.

There are far more impressive anti sansha corporations that do not consider themselves RP but they are “RP’ing the war against Sansha” in space every day. So there is no real mileage for you to appeal to us on the grounds that Moira is a keystone of the anti Sansha effort. Any carebear incursion-killing corp is doing more than Moira Soter. Its unfortunate perhaps but it is in-game (and thus IC) reality.

Beyond which, had you been fighting Sansha and not shooting Freespacers and baiting and interfering with our patrols against pirates in Placid – this war would never have happened; you do need to take some responsibility for the consequences of your actions – what made Moira shoot us when they should have been concentrating on the threat of Sansha ?

On specific hostility in incursion zones it can be considered another ambiguity really – if Julianus Soter IC really cared that much about Sansha fighting above all wouldn’t he be disgusted at the idea of fighting alongside Rote Kapelle who were quite famous for slaughtering fleets of anti sansha volunteers during the initial scripted events?

Its a bit of a double standard is it not to complain about Fraction chasing war targets into incursions while ignoring the historic role your allies have played in relation to the Sansha plotline?

I reject your conclusion completely that the Fraction is pro-sansha – you may consider that we are anti sansha to the same degree we are anti amarr and anti imperialist. We have not been convinced by your ic rhetoric that all must put aside differences and consider sansha the greatest evil in the star cluster. We consider the fate of a true slave to be no worse than the fate of a vitoc slave and it is foolish to ignore one to exclusion of all.

In this our outlook is quite similar to our allies in the Ushra’khan. We have helped fight incursions where direct massive uplift of planetary populations were involved as you know well – but it is not and never will override our primary roleplay ideology as freespacers in New Eden.

Again I reject your conclusions re “covert sansha” rp and again would suggest your character himself might more easily be tainted in this fashion by your involvement with Rote Kapelle who are as we have seen, active supporters of Sansha when it suits them.

I also repeat, there was no intention whatsoever on our part to remove you from your gaming community. I accept one of our members may have suggested such a thing erroneously in local chat but it would certainly not have been an ooc suggestion and I assure you the council of free captains (our player base) would not expect such an element of surrender from a defeated opponent. It simply makes no sense (and thus would never be required as an element of surrender to go before our member level voting).

As an aside,

A problem here I think is that you have difficulty viewing the ideology of the Star Fraction on an equal footing with prime fiction plotlines and events and as a result tend to see our anarchist ideals and outlooks as an “excuse” for what we do in-game.

That would make you a very purist RP'er who feels that one cannot create background of value in the sandbox and it does place us at odds. Somehow we would need to find some common ground here and mutually appreciate of RP creativity across this divide.

But I do assure you that your role in your gaming community is not at threat from us.
This is an IC war (and from our perspective a relatively minor one at that) that we declared simply to assert our rights of free passage and open commerce in Placid. You would not have to do much at all to make a ceasefire at this point – our point is largely proven.

But on an ooc level I think you will need to move a bit on your approach to Prime Fiction superiority above player-created background. Jericho Fraction has been a part of this game world for eight years now and have influenced politics, history and interacted with many aspects of the background.

Freespacers are a part of Eve lore. It does no good to look at our motivations and struggle to see us as “sansha agents” because we simply do not believe in General Soter’s public propaganda in reaction to the Sansha threat.

In terms of how we see things IC the “sansha-threat” is handled. Its being dealt with, its being answered, its being “farmed”.

It is not our priority.

[Julianus Soter]

Well, when the aggressor entity fails to provide any legitimate rationale for the acts of aggresion, we must -infer- their RP intentions from their actions. That is what I did in my post above.

There are threadnaughts dedicated to providing said rationale, this is (or was) one of them. You're welcome to make IC accusations questioning their motives and claiming they're supporting Papa Sansha, but claiming OOC that there has been no RP involved in this conflict seems absurd to me - it's provoked plenty which I've enjoyed watching, even if it came with a healthy dose of OOC misunderstanding and drama.

IC discussions proved impossible when OOC discussion showed an inherent lack of good faith from Jade Constantine towards myself and other participants in this conflict.

IC has become a propaganda tool out of character for their particular side, to grant their war a semblance of justification. As I listed above, unequivocally, there is no coherent justification.

Even if there were such 'provocations' in Ostingele, any action on them smacks of rampant opportunism in regards to my participation in several pro/con SF debates on the IGS.

They blew up our control tower, saving us countless hours of repairing and unanchoring modules. In case you didn't know, the tower was in the process of being taken down already, which is why it could be attacked at all. Why let an anchor weigh us down when we had other things going on, specifically Operation Dikaiosyne?

Addendum:

Regarding SF's perception of the Sansha Threat, it is only being handled because people like us were actively stopping it. Moira was instrumental in providing the tactics and leadership to many of the original Anti-Incursion fleets after the Incursion expansion. We were continuing our participation, in character, to reduce civilian casualties, but above all, collect critical intelligence about the transformation of Sansha's Nation from a joke of a pirate faction into a menace that threatens the entire universe.

Moira's focus on this is our primary roleplaying concern, as indicated in Operation Nocturne, conducted just before the wardec was in effect. http://moiracorp.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/operation-nocturne-declassified-report/

The result of this operation, and the publication of its results, led to CCP removing the Sansha found in the Fountain region with a patch.

So, Moira is a roleplaying corporation, its operations are instrumental to investigating Sansha's Nation, and up until the point SF started camping our stations, where we became distracted fighting stealthbomber hordes.

The only question remaining, is why does Star Fraction want to stop us?

[Jade Constantine]

We did not provoke any fights.

Come on that's a bit Silly Soter. You destroyed one of our ships, you prank-locked and bumped other ships while we patrolled in Ostingele, you (meaning your corp) attempted to bar us from Pelille as a direct challenge to our freespacer ideology. Its a bit pointless to deny this stuff ever happened. Else what was the war about?

Jade constantine attempted to provoke fights.
Of course, this is impossible to verify, as no shots were fired!

I chased your Maelstrom about one night in Ostingele when you are set red (from the bomber destruction) hoping to get you off a gate Julianus - you made some snippy comments in local and that was about it.

I fail to see how anything below weapons fire can justify a wardec to destroy a roleplaying corporation and gaming community. The only remainding explanation, as stated before, is OOC antipathy.

I will state (AGAIN) there is no intention to destroy your gaming community (or indeed your corporation). We fought to assert our rights as free-spacers to access commercial markets of placid. You now have a perfect opportunity to end this in a decent IC fashion if you want too.

Only thing that ever made this conflict a bit heavier than it should have been was Verone's heavy handed intercession on your behalf and the Rote Kapelle angle.

You declared (as Julianus Soter) it was your intention to see the Fraction driven from placid. You did that on an IGS thread and you posted IC blogs on the subject. We took that as full and tacit acknowledgement of your involvement in this war on an IC level. If not - why make those posts Soter?

[Jade Constantine]

IC discussions proved impossible when OOC discussion showed an inherent lack of good faith from Jade Constantine towards myself and other participants in this conflict. 

That is simply untrue and I would ask you to avoid making such blatently provocative and factually inaccurate statements in the interests of decent discussion here.

[Julianus Soter]

Once again, Jade Constantine, your justifications are simply not convincing.

Nobody was stopping your access as Free Captains to the 'commercial markets' of Placid. Indeed, I think there's a market for you to set up shop in in Agoze if you were interested. However, since there is no clear economic activity by Star Fraction in the area, indeed, they destroyed our very obviously-designed industrial control tower, which was to benefit the regional market through various processing of materials and research, the economic explanation doesn't hold much water.

So, why did you wardec us, then? What is the real reason, Jade? I think many of us are still waiting for an answer.

[Invelious]

I think this off topic at this point and beyond current events with all this he said she said, he poked her and she poked him garbage. lock it up and trash it.

[Jade Constantine]

Once again, Jade Constantine, your justifications for the conflict fall on their face.

I really don't think they have Soter.

Nobody was stopping your access as Free Captains to the 'commercial markets' of Placid. Indeed, I think there's a market for you to set up shop in in Agoze if you were interested. However, since there is no clear economic activity by Star Fraction in the area, indeed, they destroyed our very obviously-designed industrial control tower, which was to benefit the regional market through various processing of materials and research, the economic explanation doesn't hold much water.

You know perfectly well that your corporations demand that Free Captains leave Pelille is the only "justification" we'd ever need for war. Nobody the Eve Star Cluster gets to command Free Captains Soter. You should read up on your history there. As for economic activity - our staging tower in pelille has been making capsuleer combat drugs since we put it up. We're happily seeking improved relations and commercial partnerships with many Intaki resident corporations and alliances and as noted by your own corpmates we moved about 30 billion isk worth of equipment and stocks into Ostingele in the first weeks of the war!

So, why did you wardec us, then? What is the real reason, Jade? I think many of us are still waiting for an answer.

You are roleplaying regressive imperialists who tried to tell free captains where they could and couldn't go. I don't understand why this is complicated for you.

[Julianus Soter]

Did we know that? Hardly. Nor was there any communication whatsoever regarding that 'provocation' was sufficient for a declaration of war. Bam, there was a wardec. And it's gone on for what, two and a half months?

We said you weren't welcome, but you hardly have to be welcome in a star system to be able to travel there.

So, simply because we didn't like you, you can wardec us? Fascinating, I'll have to put that one to use in the future.

Furthermore, this still doesn't explain why you didn't wardec the pirates in Ostingele, who were opening fire on you on a daily basis. You do realize they used freighters in highsec within the same alliance, right?

If you were serious about your stated objectives and ideology in character, you'd have declared war on them from the start. Instead, Star Fraction was more than happy to lean on the crutch of CONCORD security status and sentry gun fire to help even the odds.

Instead, you declared war on a smaller, 'less troublesome' entity. One that had fought you to a standstill for 2.5 months. And now you crow victory at the end over us.

[Jade Constantine]

Addendum:

Regarding SF's perception of the Sansha Threat, it is only being handled because people like us were actively stopping it. Moira was instrumental in providing the tactics and leadership to many of the original Anti-Incursion fleets after the Incursion expansion. We were continuing our participation, in character, to reduce civilian casualties, but above all, collect critical intelligence about the transformation of Sansha's Nation from a joke of a pirate faction into a menace that threatens the entire universe.

Moira's focus on this is our primary roleplaying concern, as indicated in Operation Nocturne, conducted just before the wardec was in effect. http://moiracorp.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/operation-nocturne-declassified-report/

The result of this operation, and the publication of its results, led to CCP removing the Sansha found in the Fountain region with a patch.

So, Moira is a roleplaying corporation, its operations are instrumental to investigating Sansha's Nation, and up until the point SF started camping our stations, where we became distracted fighting stealthbomber hordes.

The only question remaining, is why does Star Fraction want to stop us?

One might as easily ask the question why does General Julianus Soter consider his personal pride is more important than his mission to fight sansha at this point?

Come and ask for peace, offer an apology for the wrongful destruction of our ship in nullsec, recognize the progressive commercial impact of the Fraction on lowsec Placid and make a post to that effect and the chances are you can go back to shooting sansha without any interference from us.

Or is General Soter's pride more important than the millions of abductees after all?

This kind of RP question does cut both ways old chap.

[Julianus Soter]

You seem to forget an olive branch was offered, Jade Constantine.

And summarily rejected, IC and OOC. You claimed that the "free captains" of Star Fraction weren't interested in peace.

And then you publicly declared that there would be no peace, following our successful defense of our control tower.

Additionally, two weeks into the hostilities, I forwarded a peace offer to Cosmopolite regarding the current situation. He never responded.

[Jade Constantine]

Did we know that? Hardly. Nor was there any communication whatsoever regarding that 'provocation' was sufficient for a declaration of war. Bam, there was a wardec. And it's gone on for what, two and a half months? 

There are many reasons for a wardec Julianus. In the past we've wardecced people because they were prone to using logistics alts to aid our enemies, we've wardecced people because they fired on our infrastructure hub, because they sent intel to our war enemies - hell, in one famous case because we got scammed out of 30m isk. Wardecs are an engagement tool. In your case the major tactical advantage to wardeccing moira was it stopped you prank locking and playing silly buggers around the gates when we were fighting pirates. The war has continued for 45 days so far because you opted to escalate by involving Rote and Veto - I felt it could have ended on the 2 week mark when it was clear we were getting the better of you in space and your membership was making noises of wanting to talk terms.

A simple apology and recognition of our role in Placid at that point would probably have solved it.

We said you weren't welcome, but you hardly have to be welcome in a star system to be able to travel there. So, simply because we didn't like you, you can wardec us? Fascinating, I'll have to put that one to use in the future.

One needs casus beli as well obviously. The fact you had previously destroyed one of our ships in nullsec provided that - and the need was clear to keep you guys off the gates prank-locking and baiting. The RP of you telling us we were "not welcome" was simply the icing on the cake and provided the provocation for war.

[Julianus Soter]

Now I'm really confused. Because we destroyed your ship in nullsec, because we believed we were still mutual red, we were wardecced? I thought you said on Page 4 that the Stealth Bomber wasn't the cause of the war?

Good time to point out that 0.0 NRDS policy for SF indicates that we were under the assumption the stealth bomber was hostile. Indeed, according to the killmail, it was fit with a warp disruptor, and operating next to our Syndicate base of operations.

[Jade Constantine]

You seem to forget an olive branch was offered, Jade Constantine. And summarily rejected, IC and OOC. You claimed that the "free captains" of Star Fraction weren't interested in peace.

On your terms at that point no we were not. The mistake (we both made) was in involving Verone who tried to bind IC and OOC terms together in an appalling manner. That led you to believe you could get Moira out of the war on the terms you proposed that I put before the Free Captains (our membership) and were summarility rejected. I do not believe they'd have accepted anyway (as writ) but the involvement of Rote and Veto on your side in the first part of the pos siege killed those chances stone dead because the Fraction will never bend to threats and bullying.

If Veto/Rote hadn't come that night and we'd have rejected your initial terms there would have been chances to renegotiate/discuss/bargain etc perhaps. But your terms as written initially were unacceptable because they didn't include any element of apology for your wrongful attack on our vessel. Its a small thing, but it is an important principle. Made more complicated admittedly by the fact that I cannot accept terms unilaterally (as Jade) I can only advise what might be acceptable and put said terms before the free captains for popular vote.

And then you publicly declared that there would be no peace, following our successful defense of our control tower.

Of course, at that point we needed to obliterate the control tower or largely accept we'd failed in the war against Rote/Veto reinforcing your efforts. It had become a matter of pride from our side as well. These are factors in any war.

Additionally, two weeks into the hostilities, I forwarded a peace offer to Cosmopolite regarding the current situation. He never responded.

You should always contact multiple alliance directors because some are on holiday or inactive for whatever reasons. In SF our directors are simply a conduit for putting matters of policy before the membership to decide on. Whoever you wrote to the result would be the same - your proposal would go before a common vote and must stand as reasonable and practical and fair to the Free Captains.

[Jade Constantine]

Now I'm really confused. Because we destroyed your ship in nullsec, because we believed we were still mutual red, we were wardecced? I thought you said on Page 4 that the Stealth Bomber wasn't the cause of the war?

The destruction of the bomber meant you were set red and could be summarily wardecced when appropriate. Had you not have destroyed the bomber and had merely gotten involved in bumping and prank locking while neutral the chances are diplomacy would have been done and you'd have been asked to declare your intentions (or otherwise) adjust your behaviour for mutual confidence in lowsec placid. You can best understand this as a combination of events leading up to a formal wardec - it took a combination of casus beli with continuing provocation.

Good time to point out that 0.0 NRDS policy for SF indicates that we were under the assumption the stealth bomber was hostile. Indeed, according to the killmail, it was fit with a warp disruptor, and operating next to our Syndicate base of operations.

Most of our bombers are fit with warp disruptors. That is the default Fedaykin fit. And on assumptions - well, they can lead one to make mistakes and from your perspective this could be an unfortunate failing of diplomacy on your behalf. Or alternatively maybe it was because (as your corp member pointed out on the public IGS thread) its because you operate NBSI in 0.0 and it was bound to happen?

[Morwen Lagann]

[mod]This thread appears to be heading towards the pear-shaped end of the spectrum. Please keep it civil and within the guidelines, or take it to PMs (or another forum) if you can't.[/mod]