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[Ember Vykos]

"History is written by the victors." - W.C.

If you blow me up and stick around to loot my ship I don't see a problem with you saying you captured some of my crew to interrogate, release, read your Vogon poetry to, or whatever else you want to do with them. I don't think you would get them all, but a decent majority of the ones that didn't perish in the actual fight seems perfectly reasonable. Some would probably escape/avoid detection, but I wouldn't fight you over capturing some of the survivors.

While I respect and generally adhere to the game mechanics in most of my RP I'm not going to let it limit me either. Just because there isn't a game mechanic that says I can do something doesn't mean I cant do it.

[Merdaneth]

"History is written by the victors." - W.C.

If you blow me up and stick around to loot my ship I don't see a problem with you saying you captured some of my crew to interrogate, release, read your Vogon poetry to, or whatever else you want to do with them. I don't think you would get them all, but a decent majority of the ones that didn't perish in the actual fight seems perfectly reasonable. Some would probably escape/avoid detection, but I wouldn't fight you over capturing some of the survivors.

Ah, but then you get odd things like:

- Your crew said you are a hateful master that abuses them regularly / they told me your secrets after I tortured them
- But I didn't install any escape pods, and installed explosive devices so that no crew would survive my ship's destruction

The bottom line is: if it is not in-game and independently verifiable in some manner, that it needs to be consentual. I don't care if you got nullsec sov or salvaged some wreck. There are simply situations where its easier to get people to consent with you. I've made a list of this before.

[Merdaneth]

EVE if a fictional game world. It is also a very limited world. Only a very minute part of it is observable through the game interface. There are no houses to be seen on the planets, no odors to be smelled anywhere, you cannot see inside your ship none of your crew that will ever respond to your questions. The fact that those things aren't directly observable doesn't mean they aren't really there. The background story and logic all dictate that the should be there. However, the fact that the game interface doesn't provide any tools for interacting with them means that they only exist in our imagination.

Each player imagines the world his character lives in differently and many of those visions are in conflict. Whenever you make something up that is not available for interaction, and another player disagrees with what you imagine, you risk being called out for Godmoding. In its very basic nature Godmoding is making something up another player disagrees with. The problem is, in normal play is practically impossible not to make things up, so how does one avoid this kind of unwanted attention? If you make something up, pay attention to the following things:

Scope
Scope is about impact what you imagine has on the game world. The greater the impact of your fiction, the greater the odds of it being considered Godmoding. Inventing you are a son of an insignificant NPC farmer on a remote world is perfectly fine. Making up you are the only remaining son of an NPC Emperor ruling one of the largest domains in the Galaxy is not. Imagining you own a small house is fine, imagining you own several planets and are head of one of the Galaxy's biggest megacorps is not. Making up the clothing style of one NPC is fine, deciding the clothing style of an entire culture is not.

Distance
Distance is about how close what you imagine is to your character. The greater the distance between your character's sphere of influence and what you are making up, the greater the odds of it being considered Godmoding. Your own clothes and physical characteristics are fairly safe, as is the decoration of your home and the names and mannerism of your servants or employees. Making up NPCs of your home town is getting more dangerous, making up NPCs living on the worlds your character never visited more dangerous still.

Ownership
Each player has a sphere of influence close connected to their character. The deeper what you are making up is intruding into that sphere of influence, the greater the odds of it being considered Godmoding. Making up the architecture of a world which no other character has any relation too is usually fine. Making up traditions of a culture that another PC is heavily invested in is treading dangerous ground. Controlling the servants of another PC, making up what happens to his property: no. Determining how another PC looks or acts: absolutely NO.

Logic and Appropriateness
If what you imagine it isn't easily grasped by the regular player's brains and sensibilities (which are very-much oriented into our own world) then the odds are greater that your fantasies will be considered Godmoding. We all have concepts of time, space, cause and effect, and of what is proper in an SF setting. If you invent a new plant-like organism that behaves as a tree, you are usually good to go, however, if you invent one that starts big and is gradually grows into a seed, expect a lot of questions and challenges. If you imagine Pokemon into the universe, expect to be ridiculed or ignored.

Sometimes you just want to present something large in scope, something distant from your own character, something that is like in conflict with visions of other players. How do you go about it getting it accepted or at least prevent damage to your character? Some tricks:

It is just my opinion!
Presenting your imagings as your character's opinion instead of a proven fact goes a long way to get your imagings accepted. Rather than challenge the fact, they can challenge your credibility, or even just consider you mad or ill-informed.

Get input from other players
If you include input from other players, especially those with very different visions on what you are going to make up, odds are better of getting it accepted.

Someone else told me!
In this instance you let a stand-in (like an unnamed NPC) present your ideas. If it turns out your fictions aren't very much accepted by the community, they can challenge the credibility of your source, rather than attacking you directly, which can help prevent damage to your character.

Baby steps
If you have a potentially dangerous idea, trickle it into public awareness bit by bit. That way you can gauge the reaction better, and perhaps adapt your imaginings based on initial feedback. Announce your news item first, giving just a glimpse and only after judging feedback post the whole thing.

Presentation and documentation
If you present it well and back it up your tale with likely references to more generally accepted material, you'll increase your chances too.

Avoid making people look bad
If your imagings make other characters/groups look bad, odds are that you are going to be called out on it, and maybe asked for proof (which is obviously not there). If you imagine something about an issue that another player holds dear then making him look good is much more likely to get your stuff accepted.

The bottom line: consistency
You can take the factors and tricks above into consideration and reduce the odds of your imagings being opposed by other players. If you have a good sense the other player's vision of EVE and manage to fit your imaginings into that vision, you can get away with a lot.  Many times people won't even notice that you are making stuff up, so natural does it seem to them. Having what you make up being consistent with other visions is the most important consideration of all.

As a beginning player, consistency is an absolute bitch. You likely haven't absorbed every minute detail of the new game world, let alone grapsed the general nature of other player's visions or identified which groups that have invested heavily into a particular aspect of the game world. You literally don't have a clue who the current leader of each Empire is, or if it is a king, Emperor, man or woman. Don't be afraid to make things up nonetheless, but be extra careful! If you apply the principles mentioned above odds are that there won't be a horde of angry RP-ers swooping down on you for disrupting their vision of EVE.

[Ciarente]

The bottom line is: if it is not in-game and independently verifiable in some manner, that it needs to be consensual.

I'll agree that if it's not something you can point to line of code over, consent between players certainly makes things go much more smoothly. Consent works between small numbers of players who can opt out of the group if they're not willing to buy in to a premise.  I'm wary of expecting there ever to be consensus, though, and I've been in too many IRL decision-making processes where fifteen people who agree are held hostage by one power-tripping ego-junkie to want that to be the way I spend my recreational time.

Turning a blind eye works for me, personally, when someone claims something I can't quite fit in to my EVE-view.

Also, pretty much what Merd said in his second post above.

[Matariki Rain]

• our immune systems are too delicate from our pod-time to support regular contact with baseliners and their bugs; and
• we're either limited to or strongly encouraged to remain in certain podder portions of stations when we dock (heck, we might even be isolated in our captain's quarters :) ).

Is there actually any PF examples of this? I am aware of their being capsuleer areas of stations, however I always thought of that more as an area where your money was able to buy you security and a place to get away from the riff-raff and those who would get off on being able to say they shanked an egger rather than any kind of pod-pilot quarantine.

I've heard variants of both given as reasons for podders to be isolated. I've also heard those interpretations argued.

For the areas of stations I'd suggest various interpretations of Jita 4-4:

It's a non-starter for me anyways. If I fall asleep, then they'll see soon enough. They'll notice the sockets at the base of the neck, telltale signs of trouble.

While pleasantly dreaming, I'd be giving them an excuse, a reason, a motivation to look closely enough, and they'd realize quickly what I am. In these situations where we are uncovered, alone and incognito, lurking amongst the masses, they find it easier to just shoot us.

When capsuleers are involved, it's the only path with a predictable end.

If they woke me, and let me know that they know, well, who knows what would happen next?
I could be loaded with nanite viruses, armed with invisible spy drones, laced with biological contaminants. Who knows?

Maybe...

...I'm here to take a hit contract on some civilian in the crosshairs of a person with too much money and some serious grudges. Just walk up to them as they amble tiredly towards a shuttle and then boom, spray, bang, zap...who knows, but it's lights out either way and I'm laughing all the way to the nearest clone bank.

I could be here to solve all kinds of problems. Or, I suppose, cause them.

Whatever it is, it's assured by default that whenever a capsuleer is trying to blend with the baseliners (b-lining, they say – rather repugnant if you consider it) it's not because they're here to mingle.

Besides, the mechanics of it all are for them the same as mine. They have the authority to act with lethal force at a moment's notice. Against us, that is.

I think there's also something in The Burning Life, but I don't own a copy.

I know of two passages that usually get trotted out when talking about capsuleer immune systems. One's to do with how clones are made and the other's to with boosters.

The immune system of the donor is crippled and the thymus is removed and replaced with implanted cells from the customer. The clone body will thus not reject any implant – this makes it possible to seed the body with stem cells from the customer. The clone’s body cells divide very slowly, allowing the new cells to take over in time.

I've heard it suggested that this means that any new clone is likely to have a weakened overall immune system. It's conceivable that the customer's immune system might be among the first things to come online. I'd then question what the customer's immune system made of the donor's cells, but that might be a Wonder of Future Science.

The other reference that I know of to immune suppression is with reference to booster use:

The new boosters, the one that are currently available on the black market, are in many ways revolutionary. Even if their effects are the same they’ve been developed considerably. The latest procedures have aimed to minimize the risk of the old side effects. The methods involve performing multiple smaller scale procedures, while suppressing the immune system. With earlier methods there was no option of repeat procedures, as the only virus design available was quickly targeted by the immune system and destroyed. The most obvious advantage of the newer methods is a reduced incidence of encephalitis, but there also seems to be less risk of epilepsy. This can most likely be attributed to the neural riggers all space pilots have, which can be used to suppress or stem epileptic seizures. By suppressing the immune system during the operation for a period of time after each injection, the effects last longer and the therapy is more effective. This also increases the success rate of subsequent therapies, as the viral vectors are not attacked by the immune system as soon as they are introduced.

But the obvious downside to suppressing the immune system is that the body becomes vulnerable to diseases. However, space pilots spend most of their time locked up in their capsule, a completely sterile environment. It makes it more difficult for them to leave their capsule (although not impossible), but on the whole suppressing the immune system is a non-issue for space pilots. But it must be stressed that even if these boosters are relatively harmless for space pilots because of their sterile capsules and neural riggings boosters are still very dangerous to the common people and must at all costs be kept out of the hands of the unwary or we may have an even greater catastrophe on our hands than before. This fact makes it all the more important to apprehend those responsible for the manufacturing and distribution of the new boosters.

Incidentally, I expect that this passage, with its "space pilots spend most of their time locked up in their capsule", is among the reasons some old-time players have assumed that all podder non-combat-or-trade interactions are virtual.


As a personal note, my own questions about the immune systems of clones are among the reasons Mata tends to take her original ("real") body with her when she spends time planetside with her clan. That said, the idea of a podder spending time on a planet with non-podders is something that could be seen, in light of the passages above, as "probably uncanonical". I kind of don't care, because a huge part of what makes playing Matari interesting to me is playing the tensions between being a clan-member and being this strange hybrid ship-mind.

[Matariki Rain]

Necro-ing this thread to add a link to the relevant and more-recent eve-wiki article on baselining. I recommend reading the whole thing, because there are subtleties there, but will quote for the record:

Baselining (or b-lining) is a catch-all term that refers to capsuleers engaging with the non-capsuleer world in some form or another[1]. This may include a relatively simple matter of visiting a bar on a space station, or a pilot owning property on an empire world. The term, derived from the capsuleer term for non-capsuleers (“baseliners”), mostly refers to capsuleers who aren’t directly employed by the empires, independently inhabiting their own class of interstellar society. CONCORD has not addressed baselining at all, instead leaving the matter to local authorities. There can be a great deal of leniency depending on the location, especially for capsuleers who have a positive record with a specific group, but the lack of any universal law on the matter means there is a great deal of variation from place to place. There have never been any numbers as to how many capsuleers baseline, but given the ratio of recorded incidents to the amount of independent capsuleers, it is estimated to be low. As a result, the fact that capsuleers are rarely seen amongst “baseliners” has spurred the term into the contemporary lexicon.

Overview

For the most part, independent capsuleers are confined to their own isolated areas of publicly-listed stations, which fall under the administration and authority of CONCORD[2]. These are often one of the most, if not the most, secure areas of station, with only a select group of outsiders having access, mostly security, maintenance and services orientated towards capsuleers. Everything a capsuleer requires is provided for here, but there are many pilots who decide to baseline for countless different reasons, from seeking to increase their influence amongst station inhabitants or simply because they prefer the ‘real world’ over the capsuleer one.

Outside of these controlled areas, whether in stations or on planets, CONCORD has no real authority, and a capsuleer will find themselves subject to whatever laws and regulations the locals have established. This may result in a pilot being harassed or persecuted, particularly in areas which do not rely on capsuleers, such as remote deadspace colonies and generally disconnected pockets of civilization. However, many authorities, especially at the higher levels of interstellar society, realize that there is little wisdom in antagonizing capsuleers, who often act as key actors in trade and employment.

In areas where there is little distinction between empire and independent capsuleers, pilots can enjoy many of the same freedoms as regular citizens. An example is on stations operated by empire navies, who employ many of their own capsuleers in their military forces, or wealthy areas on corporate stations, where many of the highest executives are capsuleers themselves. Major cities are also a relatively easy place for a capsuleer to baseline, as they are often just another face in the sea of bodies. Discretionary capsuleers can use skin patches to cover their implant sockets[3], should they wish to remain completely anonymous.

There's then a breakdown by jurisdiction which is a must-read for anyone who does this. Baselining sounds controlled, limited, and potentially dangerous for Caldari, for instance, but among Matari it depends--like most other things--on your social networks, and is apparently dangerous if you're a non-Matari.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Worthy necro; the article on baselining is one of CCP's greatest contributions to the RP community in recent times.


Offtopic addendum: I'm increasingly of the opinion that Merd's post several lines up should be required reading for all RPers.

[Matariki Rain]

Agreed about Merd's post. Also that from there on belongs in a reference place like the Library.

[Lyn Farel]

Connections save the day !

Little tl;dr for people that are lazy to read :


Baselining in the Amarr Empire

- Amarrian capsuleers are considered like Holders due to their wealth, although capsuleers of commoner's origin - Holders relations often get convoluted when the former are often richer than the latter.

- Non Amarrian capsuleers are strictly watched by the MIO, though it is possible to evade them.

Baselining in the Caldari State

- Heavily bureaucratic, restricting capsuleers in their areas. However it is possible to baseline by remaining totally anonymous and being granted by a temporary ID. Cover blown or failure to remain anonymous can result in being shot on sight by authorities (Jita 4-4 chronicle).

Baselining in the Gallente Federation

- Capsuleers are often viewed and revered like celebrities, and a lot of subcultures and venues are dedicated to them.

- In remote areas, the usual anti capsuleer feelings can be prevalent.

Baselining in the Minmatar Republic

- Can be chaotic considering power is usually held by experience and seniority rather than wealth, can go from indifference to chaotic.

- Can be dangerous for outsiders, depanding on the amount of xenophobia shown by local authorities.

[hellgremlin]

I've always tried my best to underpower myself in fiction. Commit a 30b heist? Write a story about stealing 200m. Wipe out an alliance? Call yourself a "power-broker," don't refer to specific incident. The only described incident of PVP in my stories ends in my far superior ship (Impoc) getting beat up by a Tempest, which reflects how shit I am at PVP and the reasons why I prefer subtlety over scrapping.

This is because if I ever chose to write down everything I actually did, I'd put the Broker and the Jovians out of a job 

[Aria Jenneth]

Merdaneth's list is excellent. There is just one thing I might add to it:


AWESOME!

Eve is more Blade Runner than Bubble Gum Crisis. In general, any trait or quality that causes you to imagine stylized Anime-style fight scenes, particularly ones in which your character holds her/his own, or, more dangerously, wins (the more unambiguously, the worse), is worth taking a second and third look at before including them. This is not to say that all pilots must be physically-feeble wusses, but it IS to say that most should tend more towards that than the opposite.

If you are going to go for in-person physical dangerousness at all, it's good to keep "Jita 4-4" in mind: most capsuleers would be more assassin than soldier, and will fall quickly (not to say instantaneously) in the face of properly outfitted, trained opposition.

My own character can be seen as marginal in this respect: Aria is a practicing Achur monk, and has trained in martial arts from a young age. She's tiny, she's quick, she keeps herself in good condition, she specializes in a particular style of short blade, and she has no lack of killer instinct. This, in and of itself, is a combination that risks "AWESOME!" status, if I let my ego fuel any encounters she has.

That last bit is the real risk here, and the primary bullet to dodge. If your character greets a drawn gun with a wince instead of a sneer, you're probably good. If not ... you may want to carefully consider whether and how to "depower" the character a bit.

[Jev North]

Since most combat pilots would essentially be at the head of an unholy union between a middling-to-large corporate bureaucracy and a paramilitary force, capsuleers personally being involved in combat, spy games, assassination or even a bar brawl makes absolutely zero sense to me. It would be like parachuting Norman Schwarzkopf into Bhaghdad to assassinate Saddam Husayn in the '91 Gulf War.

[Ulphus]

Since most combat pilots would essentially be at the head of an unholy union between a middling-to-large corporate bureaucracy and a paramilitary force, capsuleers personally being involved in combat, spy games, assassination or even a bar brawl makes absolutely zero sense to me. It would be like parachuting Norman Schwarzkopf into Bhaghdad to assassinate Saddam Husayn in the '91 Gulf War.

While I have some sympathy for your position, we're also looking at hundreds of thousands of them. After a while, the title "vice president" gets so over-used that they don't get no respect any more.

And if members of parliament (in Taiwan, Ukraine, Czech, and Venzuela on a quick Youtube search) can have fist-fights with other members of parliament, in parliament, then I see no particular reason pod pilots wouldn't occasionally punch each other in the face for fun and relief of stress, especially if they're silly enough to gather together with people they don't like and apply alcohol as a social lubricant.

[Aria Jenneth]

In addition to what Ulphus said, there's also canonical backing for capsuleers occasionally taking on a little stationside wetwork. See, yet again, "Jita 4-4."

... I'm not sure quite how the cloning works in those circumstances (the quasi-canonical "backup," perhaps?), but I believe the line is ... ah, here it is.

I could be loaded with nanite viruses, armed with invisible spy drones, laced with biological contaminants. Who knows?

Maybe...

...I'm here to take a hit contract on some civilian in the crosshairs of a person with too much money and some serious grudges. Just walk up to them as they amble tiredly towards a shuttle and then boom, spray, bang, zap...who knows, but it's lights out either way and I'm laughing all the way to the nearest clone bank.

There was some indication that this was an "option on the table" for Incarna (see also the capsuleer-assassin in CCP's "A Future Vision" promo vid from a while back). In context, Aria's taste for practicing maneuvers with a couple of long knives looks pretty damned antique (as it should).

By the way, is Dropbear still with us after the CCP purge? Pre-DUST cloning niceties notwithstanding, I still have a hell of a lot more respect for his work than for Tony "I Can't Be Bothered to Keep It All Straight" G's.

[Victoria Stecker]

By the way, is Dropbear still with us after the CCP purge? Pre-DUST cloning niceties notwithstanding, I still have a hell of a lot more respect for his work than for Tony "I Can't Be Bothered to Keep It All Straight" G's.

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3141.0 , and more to the point, http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3141.msg47639#msg47639