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[scagga]

Interesting thread. May reply when there is time.

[scagga]

Ok, a contribution 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/fashion/15skin.html?ref=fashion

Women and shaving, a cultural matter.

[Vikarion]

I'm not sure that this thread can function as anything but a celebration of "progressive" values and ideals.

The rules of this board prohibit "Racist, ageist, sexist, homophobic (including the use of "gay" as a pejorative) and other slurs". Now, by the European-western meanings of these words, any challenge of the utility of progressive western ideals will be a violation of the rules. An interesting conundrum, by the way.

I suspect that there is now a perception in the minds of some that I would dearly love to advocate racism, sexism, and homophobia. This is not the case.

But I do have to question the purpose of this thread. Is it actually intended to be an intellectually honest consideration of values that, if someone were to advocate here, would result in a ban? Or is it merely a subtle exercise in mental and emotional masturbation regarding how enlightened we are, without any opposition to question our lifestyles and opinions?

[scagga]

But I do have to question the purpose of this thread. Is it actually intended to be an intellectually honest consideration of values that, if someone were to advocate here, would result in a ban? Or is it merely a subtle exercise in mental and emotional masturbation regarding how enlightened we are, without any opposition to question our lifestyles and opinions?

It is safe to surmise that it is an informal discussion about various topics that people come across in their own lives.  I think that the thread serves as a platform for talk, and sometimes a little debate too.

If you are considering challenging a viewpoint, it may require plenty of preamble, given the need I perceive that one needs to set a solid premise before making a point.

[Casiella]

I've been a little concerned about the exclusion of religion as a "protected class," so to speak, but I trust in the language surrounding that about groups and attacks.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Ok, a contribution 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/fashion/15skin.html?ref=fashion

Women and shaving, a cultural matter.

Interestingly:

Hairy armpits are disgusting. Women or men. If your armpits are visible, they shouldn't be hairy.

Hairy legs on the other hand, do not bother me, on women or men.

[Havohej]

Hairy armpits are disgusting. Women or men. If your armpits are visible, they shouldn't be hairy.

You suit yourself.  I've got fetishes, damnit! 

 

This concludes today's episode of TMI with Havobear.

[Seriphyn]

No, damnit, all women must be smooth and clean I say. And men must at least have some hair or otherwise be branded a woman :concretegenderperceptions:

Heh, on a serious note, and something I would like to emphasize and get your opinions on, is activism within the set cultures. For example, in Western culture, we would seek to break down gender barriers and remove the glass ceiling. However, in rural Rajasthan with the example I provided, if the gender barriers are broken down according to Western thought, it threatens the very society as a whole, which is built around very clearly defined gender roles. Instead, we would seek to "work within" that culture to see how women can be empowered and brought to an equal level within their society's own separate ladder for them, no? That includes making sure they are educated to the same level as males (via night schools) while still being able to carry out domestic chores.

Perhaps that's not the best example, but let's take women activists in Iran for example. They are not protesting for women's rights "for the sake of it", which is a Western concept. They are "bargaining with patriachy" and using scripture and religious pretexts as to why they should be equal (for example, the Arabic word for 'soul', is a feminine word, used in the Qur'an). In recent years, as a result, this has become quite successful. After all, it is a theocratic society, so why use points and arguments that they wouldn't listen to in the first place? "We should be equal because the Qur'an says so" is infinitely more convincing in that society than "We should be equal because women in the West are" or "because the West says so".

I do believe that one of the original reasons for the Revolution was a "back-to-basics" with regards to the status of women. Iran was formerly a very progressive nation, bu the status of women was seen as a corrupting influence by the West, hence the setup of the current regime. It is ironic, that the West just seems to set up its own opponents. Bin Laden, and even the Iranian military, which has plenty of NATO equipment that was sold to it in earlier years (I think the Iran-Iraq war or something).

[scagga]

It is important not to confuse or risk interchanging, in my humble view, 'rights' with 'needs' and 'roles'. For certain parameters, difference is better than sameness.

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

You know what strikes me about this discussion?

What I find appalling is that not a one of you goddamn lot has attempted to nail down this nebulous thing you're referring to. I did a keyword search. 'Culture' is mentioned in the above posts over a dozen times, but nobody ever has the guts to define it. Not a single one of the posters in this thread had the capacity to do the intelligent thing in a discussion and commit to explicitly laying out the contours of the topic.

Cia came closest, though, when she began to talk about things like the capacity to progress through certain stages of education or earn a wage with certain proportions to what another demographic of the same society can earn.

Am I to conclude that none of the people who know anything about how culture is defined by those who study it felt the need to contribute seriously enough to this thread to mention it? That all the rest of it is chaff?

Very tempting, that.

[Silver Night]

[admin]I'm locking this thread. I don't see it going anywhere better, and I think most people who want to have broadcast most of their views already. To quote the sticky for this section:

Please tread carefully when it comes to RL religion, politics, and other controversial issues. There are lots of forums for debating that kind of thing, this isn't one of them.

[/admin]