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[Ciarente]

'Verries", "Sebbies", and "Bruce".

[Mizhara]

I never really shortened them IC. I did for the longest time misspell Sebiestor as Sebestior for some reason. I do use the Sinister Ones term relatively often IC, as Miz would have embraced that particular concept.

[Vieve]

I never really shortened them IC. I did for the longest time misspell Sebiestor as Sebestior for some reason. I do use the Sinister Ones term relatively often IC, as Miz would have embraced that particular concept.

My natural (that is OOC) inclination is to call them "Seabeasts".  I try to refrain from doing that ICly.

[Saede Riordan]

The "which languages do you speak" topic got me thinking.

MSM was probably developed using the remnants of the old matari languages that survived, and given that the Thukker's mostly avoided enslavement, a good portion of MSM is probably lifted from the thukker language. So I'm thinking that Old Thukker Matari would probably be mostly understandable by someone speaking Modern Standard Matari, and vice versa, probably not close enough to be considered dialects of the same language, but almost there.

[Matariki Rain]

MSM was probably developed using the remnants of the old matari languages that survived, and given that the Thukker's mostly avoided enslavement, a good portion of MSM is probably lifted from the thukker language. So I'm thinking that Old Thukker Matari would probably be mostly understandable by someone speaking Modern Standard Matari, and vice versa, probably not close enough to be considered dialects of the same language, but almost there.

While on the one hand that sounds plausible, on the other the Thukker weren't involved in the formation of the Republic and were until recently opponents of the Republic.

This is one of the areas where it matters whether there was a continuous living tradition of Matari cultures. If there was, Modern Standard Matari is probably a standardised version of whatever the "Free Matari" ended up speaking. That might itself have been a homogenised tongue.¹

If, on the other hand, the Amarrian occupation was comprehensive and all Matari other than the Thukker were either enslaved or Ammatarised for 800 odd years -- which is what I had for a long time assumed -- the creation of MSM would likely be the development of a synthetic language somewhat based on whatever records remained (perhaps preserved in Amarrian repositories that had been won back), the works of newly-freed Amarrian-trained Matari scholars (they exist) and Gallentean anthropologists ... and a certain amount of wishful thinking.

--------
¹ Detour for pure speculation: Before getting into spaceflight it's said of Matar that "[w]ith the enabling of world-wide communications, a global culture develops, steeped in the Minmatar tribal traditions". I think it's likely, although not certain, that in a global culture there would be one language that would become a widely-shared second language and lingua franca, and that if that did happen on Matar that language would already have been in a strong position when Matari colonies were established. Later, when the Cradle of the Tribes was occupied and many/most of the People of the Tribes taken into captivity, that lingua franca might have developed as the shared language of the resistance. Maybe.

[Saede Riordan]

It seemed prudent to just go ahead and ask about the occupation.

[Matariki Rain]

Clarified the exact time scale of Minmatar subjugation at the hands of Amarr. Canon sources variously claimed the Minmatar were invaded and conquered wholesale in 22480 or that the Amarr were still invading and conquering their planets at the time of the Rebellion in 23216; canon has been modified to fit the latter scenario. This effectively puts current web site timelines out of date; the timelines will be given a full revamp soon.

The clarification and retcon happened two years ago, and isn't in doubt. Many/most of us missed it, becoming aware of it only this year. I'm not aware that the background has been developed to give more of a sense of how things happened and how that affects culture, language, and internal debates about cultural authenticity within the Republic.

I mentioned it mostly because my world-building was done under the "other" set of assumptions. I don't yet have enough information to build something I consider reasonable based on the new history and, to be honest, I'm a bit frustrated and disgruntled about that situation. (You guessed? )

[Saede Riordan]

Clarified the exact time scale of Minmatar subjugation at the hands of Amarr. Canon sources variously claimed the Minmatar were invaded and conquered wholesale in 22480 or that the Amarr were still invading and conquering their planets at the time of the Rebellion in 23216; canon has been modified to fit the latter scenario. This effectively puts current web site timelines out of date; the timelines will be given a full revamp soon.

The clarification and retcon happened two years ago, and isn't in doubt. Many/most of us missed it, becoming aware of it only this year. I'm not aware that the background has been developed to give more of a sense of how things happened and how that affects culture, language, and internal debates about cultural authenticity within the Republic.

I mentioned it mostly because my world-building was done under the "other" set of assumptions. I don't yet have enough information to build something I consider reasonable based on the new history and, to be honest, I'm a bit frustrated and disgruntled about that situation. (You guessed? )

Yeah, if I'd been here for the retcon, I'd have been rather unhappy with it too. I'm still unhappy that it occurred at all.

But we have to work with what we've got, thus:

The Matari had a functional government, military, culture and economy, during the entire time of the occupation.

We can infer things from this:

• There was likely a version of modern standard matari that predated the occupation, and was used in a fashion similar to how english is used on earth currently.
• Each tribe likely had at least one language of its own, possibly more then one, and that the various clans had their own dialects.
• All the tribe languages, save that of the Starkmanir, and possibly the brutor, were likely to survive mostly intact.
• All the tribe languages would likely be sprinkled with loanwords from MSM, and, following the liberation, Amarrish. There may or may not be loanword overlap between MSM and Amarrish, I wouldn't be able to definitively say.

Do we want to suppose that the two pictures Seri showed earlier in the thread are different styles of writing the same language?

[Matariki Rain]

The Matari had a functional government, military, culture and economy, during the entire time of the occupation.

I don't think so. It's specifically mentioned that all Minmatar armed forces were swept away, and that then and over the next millennium the Amarrians were able to conduct slave raids regularly and apparently with impunity.

The Day of Darkness was properly named. That day saw one of the worst storms ever on the biggest continent on Matar, laying incredible amount of destruction in few short hours. But greater danger loomed, because that same day six giant slave vessels entered the Pator system. From there each ship set out for a different Minmatar planet, escorted by heavily armed military ships. Once in orbit the Amarrians descended onto the surface and started rounding up people. The Minmatars put up a brave resistance, but to no avail, the superior Amarr technology swept all Minmatar armed forces away, then plundered the populace at will. In addition, the Amarrians took great care of destroying every Minmatar space ship and installation they encountered, with the intent of making it very difficult for the Minmatars to gain strong space presence.

The Amarrians enslaved hundreds of millions of Minmatar in that first raid. Over the next millennium they would repeat their slave raids with regularity, capturing hundreds of millions more and throwing the Minmatar nation into a state of confusion, sorrow and insecurity.

In addition, during the Amarrian "occupation", Amarr made edicts controlling the actions of Matari, and those edicts had the effect of suppressing and breaking the continuity of a tradition which was supposedly core to Matariness.

The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.

So I'm not getting the sense from these that there was a continuous cultural tradition -- if so, why didn't it keep tattooing going if that's "an integral part of their culture and customs"? -- or a continuous Matari government.

Perhaps the Pator planets were occupied and used as a renewable source of slaves, while the colonies in Lustrevik and Eystur(?) were left alone and eventually developed their own government-in-exile. In that case, though, why was the tattooing tradition broken?

My sense is that the PF about this is still muddled and in need of clear direction. I hope the current project might provide that. In the meantime, I don't see enough consistency within what we have now to be able to build much. Good on you for optimism and creation-in-the-face-of-the-nihilistic-void, but the current unstable foundations leave me not able to support your inferences.

[Saede Riordan]

Oh lovely PF contradictions...

that really does just leave us awfully boxed into a corner.

[Ulphus]

Oh lovely PF contradictions...

that really does just leave us awfully boxed into a corner.

Yes. It really does.

[Gottii]

I think the best way to view the Amarrian occupation and enslavement of Matari is comparing it to Western Africa when they were raided by European raiders for slaves.  The slaving powers never actually outright conquered all of western Africa, nor all of the people.  What they did to was tear the heart out of a lot of local and tribal leadership, and what society did remain was traumatized and constantly in strife.  They manipulated local customs and trade conventions, and used the African tribes to play off one another.  They never tried to conquer all of them, they knew they couldn't, they simply wanted to secure a steady supply of slaves, and sow enough strife and discord that no effective resistance could be mounted.

I could easily see the Amarrians adopting a similar tactic.  I actually had always written in Gottiis back story that at least some Matari had escaped Amarrian enslavement. It never made sense to me that the Amarrians could find a way to capture every single Matari settlement or spaceship, nor that Matari culture could survive centuries of outright enslavement.  After all, if the Matari had warp drives, it would be nearly impossible to enslave them all, they would constantly be running a system ahead of you. 

Instead, the Amarrians crippled the Matar Empire, enslaved their leadership, beat down most centers of resistance, avoided the few pockets they couldnt outright conquer due to interstellar "terrain" and heavy resistance (think the US army never being able to put down the Seminole tribe in the Everglades, or the British with the Maori in the mountains of New Zealand), and basically made life miserable for the free Matari for untold centuries.  Even without outright enslavement of every living Matari, the economic, political and cultural damage would have been devastating.   

[Lyn Farel]

I agree of course, but this assumes that the Amarr Empire raided the Minmatar only for a labor force like did the europeans in the past. I am not sure if the PF states either if it was for a labor force, or either because they actually totally believed in their "enlightement through slavery" thing. If the second case was the most important of both, they would probably not have raided the Republic like this (european style, like leeches, or like the collectors in Mass Effect), and could have actually invaded it planet by planet or tribe by tribe instead, very methodically, occupying every one of their conquests afterwise, much like the Roman Empire.

Maybe a mix of both.

[Saede Riordan]

Mix of both would be most likely. The Empire itself slowly rolling along claiming worlds, while the less scrupulous holders made slave raids forward into minmatar space, ripping apart their infrastructure and keeping them scattered and disorganized.

[Sophie Starsparrow]

Just want to clarify again, my attempt at a language was meant to be for a tiny tiny group, so I apologize if my gaelic celtic thing threw anyone off

As for the Minmatar under the occupation of the Amarr, I don't think its so much a mix of both as first one, then the other. The timeline says that raids were conducted for 125 years. So, Gotti's analogy with Western Africa. Most likely the Amarrians would destroy any space or military infrastructure it encountered at this time, take the number of people they wanted and leave, wash, rinse, repeat.

Then, in 22480 Matar was conquered, but other Minmatar planets are left alone. This sounds like they are not trying to rip apart any remaining infrastructure, but rather funnel it to their own ends, much like the British Empire in India, or Hong Kong. This analogy also fits well to what the ratio of Minmatar to Amarr would have been on Minmatar worlds at this time. While conquering these people could be done, wiping out the major languages and culture shared across planets would next to impossible.

By 22947 they have occupied Starkman Prime for at least a generation. Whatever planets that are left to be conquered are probably not large ones, and most likely not habitable, being mining colonies, or even just stations. In a context like this, banning certain practises like tattooing might indeed make them come to be forgotten (Since the Nefantar would have given it up freely). It is probably not the only part of their culture that got tweaked, but in the end, its hardly enough to completely destroy a culture of what is likely to be at the bare minimum three or four billions of people, even over the course of hundreds of years.

Any slaves transported back to empire would of course lose touch with their roots and language, and here I think it goes back to Gotti's analogy again, further extended. There would probably be Minmatar patois' local to different Amarrian Holdings.

Think the PF is just fine *shrugs*