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That "Perfection ain't all it's cracked up to be" is an Angel Cartel saying? (Region Description)

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Author Topic: Outlaw Lifestyles  (Read 11396 times)

lallara zhuul

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #30 on: 17 Apr 2011, 03:41 »

But the fact remains that sometimes the romantic ideal of taking up armed struggle against one's oppressors becomes strong enough that we want to play it out in a game.
Emphasis added by me.

There is nothing in the reality of the EVE universe that fits into any romantic notion, anywhere.

The outlaw factions gain an edge by exploiting their population even more harshly than the empires do.
The outlaw factions gain an edge by not upholding any kind of social apparatus that takes care of the weak.
The outlaw factions gain an edge because they are not hindered by CONCORD regulations.

Basically, the way I see it, outlaw factions can do all these amazing things because they have no morality whatsoever.

Anything goes.

I do not deny the possibility that there may be a safe haven 'out there' where one can build their own future with your own wits and strength, but outside the empires the dragons lie.
In an empire you are somewhere on the social ladder, in lawless space you are outside of all social ladders making you prey of everyone. Of course here I am only referring to a regular person heading to the great unknown.
It is quite different to the sociopath/psychopath part of the population that have found employment in the empires in the business of killing people, military/mercenary work. They thrive in a place where you make your way by taking everything from those weaker than you.

Senn, Serpentis are a perfectly legitimate corporation that buys its security services from the Angels in 0.0
Sansha opening wormholes on whim? They've spent years applying all of their resources into researching wormhole space.
Guristas? Marriage of Caldari and Gallente tech. Caldari refuse to apply Gallente combat technology out of pride of their missiles while Guristas have no such moral restrictions.
Angels, all PF about the mentality of the faction is that it is divided and their basic mentality does not encourage building a healthy infrastructure. Their tech, scavenged Jovian tech, just like Blooder tech is scavenged Takmahl tech.

One thing that seems to skew the perceptions of the players playing capsuleer characters of their chosen factions is the fact that you are playing capsuleers. In the empires capsuleers can't affect anything, the infrastructure and the social structure sees our kinds of capsuleers as tools that work outside the regular societal paradigm as free agents doing chores that are higher risk than what they would justify using their own resources for. In the 'outlaw' space capsuleers can reap the rewards of their work, instead of being glorified errand boys. I think this skews the whole perception somewhat.

Then lets talk about infrastructure.

To have a scientist, you need a stable infrastructure with a good school system.
To have research, you need those above and a whole lot of excess resources within the infrastructure to be applied to the research.

You can't have either when you levy those living in 'your space' for the supplies for your military.

Only two factions doing real research are Sanshas and Serpentis.
Sanshas have their own 'utopian' infrastructure to create scientists and research.
Serpentis use those of the empires to hire themselves scientists because they are a legitimate company.

Guristas steal their research.
Blooders scavenge theirs.
Angels scavenge theirs and get access to the Serpentis breakthroughs.
Mordus get theirs from Caldary Navy.

Enough of rambling, I need my brekkies.
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Graelyn

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #31 on: 17 Apr 2011, 05:19 »

Lall, please refer to my last post.

Think on it.

I wrote it for a reason.  8)
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #32 on: 17 Apr 2011, 05:43 »

Lallara, there can be considerable camaraderie in the outlaw factions. It's just not built around national pride, civic duty or the like. Also, all those bad things you list the pirate factions doing, the empires also do them with their intelligence agencies, special forces or through various intermediaries.

One thing that's important to the 0.0 groups is the sense of frontier that is out there. Less rules, less people, less everything. Thus more freedom. That is why the Serpentis went there: to go to a place with less regulation. It's a tough existence and thus they cut a deal with the Angels. Though the parties involved in that deal are outlaws, and the laws governing their interaction are nearly non-existent, is it really that much different from any deal between employer and security provider? Sure, when things go to hell, there isn't any bigger authority you can go to for help or resolution like in the empires. You're on your own. And that's precisely what the outlaw mentality being discussed here prefers.

"Beyond a critical point in a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive."
 - Frank Herbert -
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #33 on: 17 Apr 2011, 06:40 »

I'm going to go ahead and address your points individually Lall,
The outlaw factions gain an edge by exploiting their population even more harshly than the empires do.
I don't think this is true, I don't think its true because these groups have been around long enough that exploiting their people too much would cause them to collapse. The Blood Raiders Drink Blood, that doesn't mean everyone on their planets are cattle for their blood farms. Nor does it mean that everyone living on a planet in curse is a slave. I do think there is likely to be abuse of power, there always is, but the power structure is much more dynamic then Empire, the lines are constantly shifting.
The outlaw factions gain an edge by not upholding any kind of social apparatus that takes care of the weak.
This I disagree with not, on the idea that they do take care of the weak, I don't believe that. But at the same time, they don't particularly care for the strong either. There is much less cultural and societal pressure keeping the strong strong and the weak weak. The system is much more fluid. Someone whose been a slave all their life might suddenly kill his master and take over his holdings, and there is no culture that's going to tell him he can't have them, he earned it. In the case of the angels, (and I dunno bout the other societies) I see them as being somewhat outside of this, and yet not at the same time. There is a sort of camaraderie among the angels, and there is definitely a sense of duty among them. Duty and loyalty to a faction imply that that faction has done things to earn that loyalty. Pilots are willing to throw their life away to protect the cartel. That says something.

The outlaw factions gain an edge because they are not hindered by CONCORD regulations.

No one is hindered by regulations. The Empires are just slightly quieter about it...slightly.

In an empire you are somewhere on the social ladder, in lawless space you are outside of all social ladders making you prey of everyone. Of course here I am only referring to a regular person heading to the great unknown.
there are people in the empires outside or under the ladder too, for them, (and they are the primary recruiting pool for these groups) anything is better then what they had before. As I said, you are the prey of everyone, but everyone is the prey of you. There are no enforced classes or rules keeping you down, it all comes down to power and cleverness.

Angels, all PF about the mentality of the faction is that it is divided and their basic mentality does not encourage building a healthy infrastructure. Their tech, scavenged Jovian tech, just like Blooder tech is scavenged Takmahl tech.
I disagree with that, read the section of Black Mountain that talks about life on an Angel station. Also, the Angels aren't divided so much as broken up by structure, like the US military is. Its not factionalism, its a well oiled machine, and it works well at getting what it does done. That's why the Angels are the largest faction, with more area then the Empires, and have their fingers everywhere/

Angels scavenge theirs and get access to the Serpentis breakthroughs.

Actually the Serpentis ships were built using angel tech. the tech flow is two ways. The angels discover Jovian tech, figure out how it works, and apply it, then give it to the serpentis, and iterate upon it, and improve it, and feed it back to the angels. The angels aren't just strapping Jovian components onto their ships, they know what they're doing with that technology, they know how it works and how to duplicate it, which is likely more then the Empires can say about the T3 ships

tl;dr: The pirate factions are as much empires as highsec.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #34 on: 17 Apr 2011, 08:10 »

This is life in with the pirate cartels.  Becareful, it will upset you.

[spoiler]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Mwji9NGKo[/spoiler]

I guess having dealt with simolian pirates* in person skews my view of what life is like for people who live in a 'society' were the only law is 'he who has the gun is right.'

*Thirteen year old boys high out of their minds and armed with AKs and RPGS to doing the bidding of warlords on shore.

The ship's photographer gave me a copy of these, but they are just some distance shots he was allowed to share with the crew.  The white men on the freighter are russian hostages.

http://johnnygeeksheek.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=scraps#/d1q2hj2
http://johnnygeeksheek.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=scraps#/d1q2ib9
http://johnnygeeksheek.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=scraps#/d1q2h88

Quote
Seems there's a lack of understanding of the "pirate" mentality in this thread.

Yea, there really really is.  

« Last Edit: 17 Apr 2011, 08:26 by Hamish Grayson »
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #35 on: 17 Apr 2011, 16:55 »

Quote
Seems there's a lack of understanding of the "pirate" mentality in this thread.

Yea, there really really is.  



I think the issue is a lot of people compare Eve pirates to the romanticized privateers during the days of the European Empires. That's incorrect. But at the same time we can't compare them to modern pirates either, because that's also incorrect. We're dealing with something that doesn't exist on earth. Its the idea of a rogue empire it would be like if the Old Soviet Union was based on hyper-capitalism, individual power, and mob rule, and sent raiding parties of battle groups to raid the united states and western Europe. And that's a rough analogy at best. The truth is we're trying to compare new eden with something that just cannot exist on earth.
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #36 on: 17 Apr 2011, 18:29 »

I could link to videos showing the US or other "civilized countries" doing equally degrading shit. Actually, I could easily show much worse. Also, comparing the Somalian pirates to the rather well off and advanced pirate factions of Eve may be rather off the mark. Nevertheless, the point is well made. An oppressed population will turn to piracy to support itself and terrorism to make itself felt. And who did the oppressing, I ask?
« Last Edit: 17 Apr 2011, 18:32 by GoGo Yubari »
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #37 on: 17 Apr 2011, 18:36 »

Are you saying that places like Somalia are they way they are because they are oppresed by the UN?
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #38 on: 17 Apr 2011, 18:44 »

I'm not going to say that, because that's straying too far from the topic at hand. I'm just saying that the kind of atrocities you linked the "bad guys" doing, I can outdo by showing videos that show the "good guys" doing equal or worse things. I don't think a video is going to prove anything either way, though.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #39 on: 17 Apr 2011, 22:41 »

Hamish, I really don't think anyone here is saying that pirates are "good people." We're fully aware that in the actual world, piracy and all manner of cartel work will inevitably bring suffering on innocent people. We don't need a lesson on morality.

This is a game.

And in this game, the fact is that there's no such thing as a bloodless hand. The Matari work with terrorism, the Caldari are brutally strict, the Gallenteans massacred a planet, and the Amarrians... well, they're Amarrians.

As for Zhuul:

"The outlaw factions gain an edge by exploiting their population even more harshly than the empires do."

If we're going to throw around moralist rhetoric, then I don't think its worth bringing up that outlaws exploit "worse than" anyone. They steal and extort their way to the top, but they're still at the top, they still own huge reaches of space, and still accomplish great feats when they put their mind to it. You don't have to like the outlaws, or their player characters. But you can't deride them with no attention paid to their accomplishments.
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Ken

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #40 on: 17 Apr 2011, 22:54 »

the Gallenteans massacred a planet
Propaganda.

Federation society is close to Utopia.   (Page 174, of The Empyrean Age.)

For what it's worth, uh... as the OP, I think my opinion on the topic lies closest to Nikita's.  I see the "pirates" as being rogue states with varying degrees of centralization and varying levels of cohesion that are grossly mislabeled by the central powers.  Pirate just isn't the right term, but it provides immediate understanding of the "good guy/bad buy" relationship between the frontier states and the core empires, so that's what CCP decided to call them.

As for the life out there in the wild black, I like the American West analogy.  People go out there to get away from something they feel that they must escape or to find something they hope will change their lives for the better.  When they get there, of course, they're likely to discover things are not at all as they expected.  In this I am reminded of the character and story dynamics in the HBO drama "Deadwood".
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #41 on: 17 Apr 2011, 23:04 »

I wouldn't call it propaganda, as much as exaggeration to prove a point. Everyone thinks everyone else is the worst scum to drift through the cluster. I'm sure not every Amarrian is a slave-beating maniac, but that's the general view to their enemies.

Just like every Serpent is a crash-snorting extortionist, every Gurista is a bloodthirsty psychopath, etc.
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Ken

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #42 on: 17 Apr 2011, 23:07 »

I wouldn't call it propaganda, as much as exaggeration to prove a point. Everyone thinks everyone else is the worst scum to drift through the cluster. I'm sure not every Amarrian is a slave-beating maniac, but that's the general view to their enemies.

Just like every Serpent is a crash-snorting extortionist, every Gurista is a bloodthirsty psychopath, etc.
I know, Senn... I was just kidding with you.  ;)

[spoiler]Also, please stop snorting crash and extorting people.[/spoiler]
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #43 on: 17 Apr 2011, 23:18 »

I'll stop when they start paying me the extortion money they owe me so I can buy more crash! >:C
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An important reminder for Placid RPers

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It's such a shame the same
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Outlaw Lifestyles
« Reply #44 on: 18 Apr 2011, 06:17 »

I'm not trying to give you a lesson in morality or prove that the pirate factions are evil via videos.  I'm showing you what life is like in lawless space.   RPing a slightly more dark and edgy Robin Hood character affiliated with a pirate group is perfectly acceptable, but the general character of the pirate factions isn't a band of merry men fighting against tyranny and providing a dream of hope for the outcasts of society.

You wouldn’t say Al Capone was providing a dream of hope for the outcasts of American society  in the 1920’s would you?
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