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[GoGo Yubari]

I don't think anyone is saying that the Guristas, for example, aren't the bad guys in a general sense. I think that's a given as per the setting, but this discussion is more about shades of grey and understanding the bad guys. If we take a realistic approach, we also have to think what being a bad guy really means. Very few people sit at the shitter and think "I'm evil" after all. If we'd take Eve as a cartoon setting, maybe we wouldn't have to.

Also, personally, I will debate the objective truth of subjects which I consider "hard", such as which Drake fitting has more DPS or how much delta-v is required to take a spaceship from earth orbit to mars orbit. In these cases if I think someone is wrong, I will try to change their mind. But for topics I consider "soft", such as who are the bad guys, I'll often have my own opinion and I won't sell it as the objective truth to anyone else. Especially in relation to storytelling/roleplay, I think diversity of opinion is key. I will oppose someone trying to make their personal viewpoint into a hard fact, though.

Back to the topic at hand, though. People are complex and often contradictory. You can be a criminal and think of yourself as a good guy. You can do good deeds, while doing bad things. You can have different interpretations of Al Capone as well. At the time many did as well. I don't personally really condone killing people for profit, so he'd be more in the bad guy camp for me for sure though. However, at that time and that place, I'd still buy his booze. That's me being complex and contradictory in action, I guess.

Discussions of Eve's pirate factions don't really benefit from such diverse groups being lumped into one category. They're all pretty different from each other. So discussing the moralities of the groups in question will probably reveal pretty different motivators.

I'd also consider capsuleer pirates to be a pretty unique case. These are generally not uneducated poor people forced into violent means to sustain themselves. So, the question of what drives them to piracy is very much interesting and important.

[Ken]

what life is like in lawless space

But is it fair to compare the "lawless space" of New Eden to the failed states of modern Earth?  I think there is a difference between a uncontrolled frontier and an uncontrolled Third World nation.  Perhaps half, if not more, of what we "know" from PF about the pirate factions is in a sense empire/CONCORD propaganda intended to cast doubt and suspicion on much younger but rather competitive centers of political and economic power.  This is why I prefer to draw inspiration on the topic from the American West of the 19th century or even the New World of the 16th rather than Somalia or northern Mexico in the 21st.  I'd add that the former examples had their own share of violence and atrocity in not small amounts.

[Casiella]

How about comparing the NPC sov areas to rogue or failed states? Stain as North Korea?

[Lyn Farel]

I'm not trying to give you a lesson in morality or prove that the pirate factions are evil via videos.  I'm showing you what life is like in lawless space.   RPing a slightly more dark and edgy Robin Hood character affiliated with a pirate group is perfectly acceptable, but the general character of the pirate factions isn't a band of merry men fighting against tyranny and providing a dream of hope for the outcasts of society.

You wouldn’t say Al Capone was providing a dream of hope for the outcasts of American society  in the 1920’s would you?

I agree with that. I am not blaming any pirate RPer for that but we definitly lack of very mean outlaws without ethics, living like real outlaws because they are fucking criminals and not robin hoods. Playing pirates with revolutionnary ethics or whatever is totally ok, and is very romantic, thus why a lot of RPers chose that, but I am a little sad because this is not representative of what you would expect of most of the outlaws. Raxip is a good example of that. I love that character, even if I have not played a lot with him.

Recently I have been to the gallente gala and it was filled with Angels blabbering all around. That was weird, though, why not. After that I was reading what was said in the Skyhook and the same angels were saying "omg, this was very boring". It was confusing.

[Casiella]

I would suggest that the "evil outlaws" generally manifest themselves as part of the environment without explicitly RPing in the sense most of us here mean it.

Griefers, gate campers, etc. all exist in EVE and will happily cut your throat for a pod ransom or a chance at some decent loot drops. They've no pretensions toward a revolutionary philosophy or anything other than big explosions and tears.

This is made of good and win, in the context of EVE, and they fill a similar niche.

[Orthic]

I agree with that. I am not blaming any pirate RPer for that but we definitly lack of very mean outlaws without ethics, living like real outlaws because they are fucking criminals and not robin hoods. Playing pirates with revolutionnary ethics or whatever is totally ok, and is very romantic, thus why a lot of RPers chose that, but I am a little sad because this is not representative of what you would expect of most of the outlaws. Raxip is a good example of that. I love that character, even if I have not played a lot with him.

Recently I have been to the gallente gala and it was filled with Angels blabbering all around. That was weird, though, why not. After that I was reading what was said in the Skyhook and the same angels were saying "omg, this was very boring". It was confusing.

I think part of the issue is the difference between criminal culture as we think of it in RL, and the culture for capsuleers, the biggest difference being: Trust, and how it is enforced.

In a real life criminal organization, you trust people not to screw up because there can be nasty consequences – for the sake of example, we’ll say that if you screw up, or try to screw one of your companions, steal from the boss, etc, the group will kill you. So you don’t.

As capsuleers, if we decide to screw each other, the consequence is… not much. Damaged reputation? Trust is an integral part of any effective combat organization (which most pirate corps are), but cannot be enforced upon capsuleers. As such, we fill our pirate corps with people that we trust, meaning that the morally-bankrupt, ethically-lacking, kill-anything-that-ain’t-me types aren’t generally welcome. In a world which actively encourages screwing people and committing theft because there are no real consequences, we surround ourselves with the few people we trust not to. Because we can’t force him to behave by threatening to kill him, we simply keep the loose cannon out. Capsuleer criminal corps are therefore generally a lot stricter when recruiting than a non-capsuleer criminal organization might be.

As for the gala, the Serps were there as businessmen operating in and around the Federation and were therefore interested. The rest of the Angels were there… for shits and giggles? Well, no, they were there for business reasons too. The event ended up not really addressing anything we were concerned with – which doesn’t mean it was a waste, simply making an appearance has its value, but it was rather dull. OOC I was impressed with everything the organizers put together. It was amusing to all of us, however, that the Angel bloc represented probably half the people in the Gala and the majority of the people on grid in the asteroid belt.

[lallara zhuul]

Simple question.

Why do the outlaw factions rely on piracy?

For fun?

For resources?

If the outlaw factions would have a fully functioning infrastructure with enough excess to educate the population to a such level that they could churn out scientists on top of their forever hungry war machine then they would not have a need for piracy.

[Orthic]

Simple question.

Why do the outlaw factions rely on piracy?

For fun?

For resources?

If the outlaw factions would have a fully functioning infrastructure with enough excess to educate the population to a such level that they could churn out scientists on top of their forever hungry war machine then they would not have a need for piracy.

Do they rely on piracy? Or is it simply supplimental income, a way to test and train crews, gather slaves, blow off steam so they don't kill each other?

Most of the outlaw factions engage in piracy in some form or another, but the extent to which they rely on it doesn't seem as clear. The blooders need fresh bodies, the Sansha and Angels need/want slaves, the Guristas like to be a thorn in the side, the Serps... I don't know, haven't run missions against them to see what they're accused of.

But I don't get the impression that any of the factions completely rely on piracy economically. It's just an added bonus to not being one of the established empires - you can attack people without it being called an act of war - merely piracy.

[Saikoyu]

As I see it, and going by memory, I think that the Angel Cartel most closely matches the pirates of the high seas and such.  The Angels seems to be ruthless, die-hard, and mostly in it for the money and the power.  I think this is where you would have the desperate this is my last chance types and also the pillage and burn types, aka, traditional pirates, and they are out there because its far enough out that no one will bother them.  This would be a pirate group that evolved into a government sort of thing I think.  The other "pirate" groups I would actually lump into a few different catagories as pirating isn't what defines them really.

For instance, Blood Raiders I would actually compare most to Pilgrims.  They were forced out of the Amarrian Empire because of religious differences, and so they went to a new land to practice their faith.  Their faith just happens to require them to raid ships for the blood.  They are more a nation first than a pirate group that grew a government like the Angels.  

For the Gurista, they seem more on the rebel side of things, people who don't fit in Caldari society and so they make one of their own.  Caldari society, as presented in the books and chrons, is very conformist, and so the Gurista seems to be an escape valve if you're too this or too that to fit in.  And you're got to make money somehow, so why not stick it to the Caldari?  I would call them a society first, and a government second.

For the Serps, they seem most like the mob, or a mob-like group.  A lot of their stuff seems to be in things that get pushed, like drugs, so they seem perfect to be the mob or drug lords of Eve.  And since mobs tend to be fairly organized in the first place, I don't see any need for a government with them for people that live in their territory.  More like lots of independant citys and planets and a lot of, "Well, its be a real shame if some of our battleships would fire some rounds off target."  

As to the OP's question, given the number of worlds, you could probably find any kind of city or planet out there, from Firefly like dust bowls to mega cities and everything in between.  As long as the "pirates" are on top, I don't think they would really care.  Even if they did, they would probably make the city/planet to be whatever they wanted, so if some pirate leader what to live as king, I'm sure that he would have the power to do that.  The power of a god via orbital strikes can be a wonderful motivator.  

Anyway, my 2 isk.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

That's the thing, though. I think that all of those pirate factions (Angels, Serpentis, etc) neither rely on piracy nor fit the traditional myth of desperate pirates.

Take the Angels, for instance. We know from the description that they're the largest faction, and that they (used to, at least) see a lot of disillusioned Minmatar joining them. According to TBL, they have planets and stations, with the space-based Cartel being just the smallest tip of the iceberg. People have bandied about numbers in the tens of billions for their population, and I don't think that's unreasonable.

A population that big is going to require some sort of government. It's going to require services. You could say "oh, those planets are hell-holes, people living there are slaves, picture Somalia", but that doesn't explain why so many people leave the empire to join them. One of the characters in TBL calls it "a prime destination for anyone looking for safe, lucrative work". That doesn't sound like a hell-hole. People don't voluntarily move to Somalia, after all.

As far as the "why do they rely on piracy" question, I've never really seen a claim that they do. The NPC descriptions of their ships focus on how they "guard their faction's interests", and "will attack anything they perceive as a threat". That makes them sound more like border guards and military forces than pirates.

[Lyn Farel]

I would suggest that the "evil outlaws" generally manifest themselves as part of the environment without explicitly RPing in the sense most of us here mean it.

Griefers, gate campers, etc. all exist in EVE and will happily cut your throat for a pod ransom or a chance at some decent loot drops. They've no pretensions toward a revolutionary philosophy or anything other than big explosions and tears.

This is made of good and win, in the context of EVE, and they fill a similar niche.

Yes, but Im refering to the RP community. Most of the pirates I see are very civil and friendly with almost everyone. Be they deadly enemies. Note that I might look like a hypocrite saying that because im playing a liberal in a keep open to almost everyone for civilities, but when I see other loyalist organisations and how they treat with pirate factions... well.

[Saede Riordan]

I would suggest that the "evil outlaws" generally manifest themselves as part of the environment without explicitly RPing in the sense most of us here mean it.

Griefers, gate campers, etc. all exist in EVE and will happily cut your throat for a pod ransom or a chance at some decent loot drops. They've no pretensions toward a revolutionary philosophy or anything other than big explosions and tears.

This is made of good and win, in the context of EVE, and they fill a similar niche.

Yes, but Im refering to the RP community. Most of the pirates I see are very civil and friendly with almost everyone. Be they deadly enemies. Note that I might look like a hypocrite saying that because im playing a liberal in a keep open to almost everyone for civilities, but when I see other loyalist organisations and how they treat with pirate factions... well.

Well if people act like total sociopaths, they won't get much RP. Like, Nikita might torture, murder, and enslave people, and is very open about that, but if I play her like nothing but a monster, then no ones going to want to interact with her except through the barrel of a gun. So she's amiably evil, and has no problem conversing with her enemies. If she sees a shot, she'll take it, but otherwise...she gains nothing, and I gain nothing, by being monsterous and evil for the sake of it.

[Ulphus]

Well if people act like total sociopaths, they won't get much RP. Like, Nikita might torture, murder, and enslave people, and is very open about that, but if I play her like nothing but a monster, then no ones going to want to interact with her except through the barrel of a gun. So she's amiably evil, and has no problem conversing with her enemies. If she sees a shot, she'll take it, but otherwise...she gains nothing, and I gain nothing, by being monsterous and evil for the sake of it.

Whereas Ulf feels that playing nice with the amiable sociopaths is just silly, and so avoids them where possible; if anything the nice ones are worse, since they're obviously trying to worm their way into polite society in order to screw it over. :p

[Saede Riordan]

Well if people act like total sociopaths, they won't get much RP. Like, Nikita might torture, murder, and enslave people, and is very open about that, but if I play her like nothing but a monster, then no ones going to want to interact with her except through the barrel of a gun. So she's amiably evil, and has no problem conversing with her enemies. If she sees a shot, she'll take it, but otherwise...she gains nothing, and I gain nothing, by being monsterous and evil for the sake of it.

Whereas Ulf feels that playing nice with the amiable sociopaths is just silly, and so avoids them where possible; if anything the nice ones are worse, since they're obviously trying to worm their way into polite society in order to screw it over. :p

While I don't disagree with this statement, I think we might be looking at it slantways. Its like...would you rather have enemies who are crafty, and clever and evil, or have enemies that are just monsters and don't think past causing as much damage as possible? I'm playing a villain, not an axe murderer.

[Ulphus]

Its like...would you rather have enemies who are crafty, and clever and evil, or have enemies that are just monsters and don't think past causing as much damage as possible? I'm playing a villain, not an axe murderer.

IC? Ulf would like them to stay out of the republic and places he has to go. He doesn't care whether they're nice people. If he thinks they're salvageable, then he might put some work into them, but if they're not, then they're not worth spending time socialising with. He doesn't care whether they're clever and evil. He stops caring once he gets to the evil part.

OOC? I think it's good that there are people playing on different sides in the great struggles, great even. But I prefer not to to twist my character's IC responses in order to have everyone RPing in the same room.

A couple of weeks ago, Ulf was in the Last gate for the first time in a year or more. Kybernetes was there, and Kyber and Ulf haven't spoken since shortly after Kyber left ReAw. Ulf carefully ignored Kyber and Kyber's only acknowledgement was a double take when he noticed Ulf.

There was so much hidden backstory in that one physical reaction, with no words uttered. I thought that was great. Even if I only got to really enjoy it OOC.