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[Ghost Hunter]

Could we split the EoM discussion off into a topic that can argue the pros and cons of micro factions in world shaping events? EoM, The Seven, etc. It would seem more appropriate than in a TonyG topic.

[Lyn Farel]

Rogue drones being the incursioners would have definitly made a lot of sense to me. Even more than Sansha. A new kind of infestation, or maybe a renegade hive ?

[Casiella]

[mod]Split as requested.[/mod]

[Alain Colcer]

A lot of folks still believe that the plots of EVE are written down and kept in a vault somewhere. Things like this firmly convince me that they''re mostly made up a week before during week-long whiskey benders.

Sadly i thought the same

[Ghost Hunter]

Onto the topic of incursion factions, pros and cons, etc...

I know I've heard this, but I cannot quite find the source. There have been talks about CCP reusing Incursion mechanics (or its theme) for other factions, yes?

We may see an Incursion theme from every faction at one point or another, not necessarily with wormholes and shenanigans. Sansha incursion, for instance, big promo release, iconic villain, etc, as CCP have talked about in interviews. Sansha incursions end at some point, others step in with more localized incursions. Sansha may retain the unique ability to attack across the galaxy as they please, where as other factions cannot.

Rogue Drone outbreak from the Drone regions, for instance. North eastern frontiers of Empire space (notably Minmatar space) come under Rogue Drone incursions. Or the Drone Hives across the cluster go nuts and start an exponential expansion (a plausible method of a pan-galactic incursion for them). These are the most logical stop point for the Big Bad after Sansha.

Then there are smaller scale incursion methods, such as EoM flipping their shit and going on a rampage in Genesis/where ever. The full system debilitating effects we see with the Sansha wouldn't exist across the region, but EoM's presence would be felt everywhere instead of just one constellation. Conversely, they probably wouldn't show up for a long time afterward due to being a small player in the galactic market.

A flexible Incursion model would, I think, allow the various factions to get their due Incursions (Empires too maybe?), while not completely shattering the suspension of disbelief. Empires may do Incursions to support the efforts of their people in FW, for instance, after a certain number of objectives are met. Alternatively, they do their own counter Incursions in their bordering Nullsec systems to fight the pirate menace, etc... They wouldn't do them in other areas of empire space because of CONCORD.

Or I'm blowing smoke out my ass by hoping about what could be done with these mechanics

[Saede Riordan]

Whats more likely though Ghost, is that CCP won't touch the Incursions storyline with a 10 foot pole and will try to force the story in yet another, completely unrelated direction. Sansha will continue being the odd duck out of the pirate nations, and the other groups will be made to look less awesome as a result >_<

I want to believe CCP won't completely abandon this element of the story...but lets be honest with ourselves here. Do we really think its going to go anywhere?

[Ghost Hunter]

Whats more likely though Ghost, is that CCP won't touch the Incursions storyline with a 10 foot pole and will try to force the story in yet another, completely unrelated direction. Sansha will continue being the odd duck out of the pirate nations, and the other groups will be made to look less awesome as a result >_<

I want to believe CCP won't completely abandon this element of the story...but lets be honest with ourselves here. Do we really think its going to go anywhere?

I STILL BELIEVE ... IN A WORLD WHERE CHANGE CAN HAPPEN.

Well, before the Obama administ-USER WAS CENSORED FOR THIS POST

[spoiler]But no seriously, if cliche story telling is to be expected the Nation will probably get irreparably crippled at the end of their Incursions to pass the torch onto the next big bad. It depends on how off the wall they are willing to get, but I imagine things will change a bit, even if it's just the face of the enemy you're shooting and not the mechanics.[/spoiler]

[Lyn Farel]

I agree with the Sansha above.

Yes I do.

[Senn Typhos]

And this is why sometimes, I'm not pissed that CCP hasn't dealt with the Serpentis faction much.

But I have faith in the toaster loyalists. Despite CCP's plot writing, they've still managed to keep at it for their faction. I'm sure they'll still be doing neato stuff long after the incursion buzz ends.

[Ghost Hunter]

And this is why sometimes, I'm not pissed that CCP hasn't dealt with the Serpentis faction much.

But I have faith in the toaster loyalists. Despite CCP's plot writing, they've still managed to keep at it for their faction. I'm sure they'll still be doing neato stuff long after the incursion buzz ends.

♥


I am hoping they avoid the deadly pit fall this precedent could set up. Of the five major pirate factions, three have world altering ambitions. The Covenant dreams of the Great Harvest, the Nation is currently going under its revenge phase, and the Guristas mostly want to see ordered society (caldari) broken down. The Angels themselves may have world dominations aspirations, but that agenda is as shady as the Nation pre-Incursion stuff.

Serpentis I have no idea about, they seem to be honest to god black market profiteers. Might be on board with the Angels for conquest, if that is the case, though.

In the end, if each of the major outlaw factions receive their own due attention like the Sansha did, I am afraid if they go the "you're big! now you're slapped down again" for the status quo. Beefing up a faction is not necessarily bad, so long as the circumstances that would send them over the edge is never reached. The Nation is a good example right now, because they have two horrifying super weapons.

The first is their wormhole generator technology, which essentially allows them unrestricted access anywhere they please. The second is the Kyonoke speck, an unspeakably deadly substance that could wipe out all life it comes into contact with. Combine the two and you have a world ending scenario right at your finger tips, pretty much. Understandably, for the sake of story telling, this I Win scenario should probably be removed or locked up.

Super weapons help prevent full war scenarios (or instigate them), but so does Mutually Assured Destruction. I'm pretty ok with the notion of the Kyonoke speck being put out of the way (maybe given off to the next Big Bad as their kicker). The Nation's wormhole technology I'm a bit leery about. Some appropriate plot device could in theory kick them out of highsec, but allow them the use of it else where still. I'm mostly ok with the Nation having it because it's not a world ender weapon on its own: it needs to be combined. Unless you open a wormhole in the middle of a planet to make it implode, or something. I don't think that's possible, though. By far and large, I don't think the Nation's wormhole capabilities has seen its fullest use yet.

That's just the Nation. Then there's the other factions and their own colorful mega weapons. [spoiler=The Burning Life]The Guristas have literally built an entirely artificial planet, CCP only knows what kind of doomsday weapon you could build at that point.[/spoiler] The Covenant has some kind of super viral weapon from way back in the day during the Bleak Lands arc, not sure if they still have that. The Angels have Jovian technology to some extent, they could probably reverse engineer a doom ray out of it. Serpentis have their mastery of narcotics, they could probably make a super poison or something. They definitely have mind control/manipulation drugs, I run into those all the bloody time. This does not even take into account 3 work together, and the other 2 work together as well. If anything, the situation is so heavily slanted against the Empires because they're fighting against each other right now it's not even funny.[spoiler]Jovians to save the day![/spoiler]


tl;dr

I am afraid that in the name of keeping things 'stable', CCP will beef up a faction for Incursions/World events, and then promptly cripple the fuck out of them again. The closest we have gotten to is the Amarr losing Jamyl's superweapon, but they are still a relatively powerful faction without it. Contrast with the Nation, who would lose an enormous military equalizer if their wormhole technology was stricken out. The second closest faction that would face a Nation-esque wipe out is probably the Covenant, since they are quite universally hated. Angels, Serpentis, and Guristas seem to be strictly faction linked.

[spoiler]rabble rabble rabble[/spoiler]

[Orthic]

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. The guristas don’t strike me as having the kind of centralized control necessary to coordinate a clusterwide invasion of any kind… I guess I’m too used to looking at them like a street gang in space rather than the kind of criminal organization that could undertake such shenanigans. I could be wrong.

Don’t know a ton about the Angels, I could see them taking a swing at Republic space but don’t see them going after everyone. Serps sure as hell don’t make sense – just a bunch of scientists and researchers that are only outlaws because the law decided to frown on their work, at least originally. Since them they’ve evolved to take advantage of their position, but I don’t see them having any sort of ambitions for conquest. If CCP decides to change that and doesn’t come up with a very very good reason why, I’ll be more than a little annoyed.

Blooders I guess make some sense – sufficiently insane to consider the attempt at a clusterwide clusterfuck, probably have the resources to pull off something big even if they aren’t Nation, and universally despised.

Rogue drones would be the other faction that makes any sense for the next Big Bad of incursions. They’ve got the numbers, the resources, and the advanced tech to do all those nasty little things that happen to our ships when Papa Sansha farts up a system.

Regardless, any faction that CCP tries to use is going to need some very careful, thoughtful working through to have it make any sense. Otherwise it’s just going to feel like another rectal extraction that makes the RP community facepalm until it bleeds.
 

[Senn Typhos]

I'm sure I'm gonna step on someone's toes here, but, that's half of what I do already, so. Herewuhgo.

I'm wildly opposed to CCP's current representation of the Sansha, among other pirate factions, and I know some people share the sentiment. The problem is that when you basically make a character or faction, raise them up to the status of a superpower with unimaginably powerful weapons, set them against the entirety of the cluster, and openly declare that they're the obvious black-and-white antagonists, what you've made isn't the deep, politically and socially complex, mostly-grey and infinitely interesting world of EVE.

You've made the plot from Harry Potter.

I can't speak for everyone obviously. But the idea of world-killer weapons, superpowerful antagonists, clear-cut discrepancies between good and evil... it's just fucking boring, and childish.

[Julianus Soter]

Is it just me, or do I remember Sansha always wanting to conquer the universe? Evanda Char has more notes on these things than I do, but there were data files, old Aurora live events, various thing indicating a desire for the remnants to make a New Nation and bring Sansha's light to all, etc etc.

Why is it that people get angry that the Sansha are doing what they always claimed they were going to do? It wasn't that much of a secret, was it?

[Casiella]

Jules, I think the issue isn't the motive so much as it is the means, to use the old murder mystery elements.

That said, I think the Sansha roleplayers have done a better than decent job of creating moral ambiguity and shades of gray for that faction. Reasonable people can disagree on whether CCP has done so as well, but Kybernetes and GH have really reduced the contrast there.

[Julianus Soter]

I'm confused. People want the Amarrian Roleplayers to go more GLORIOUS CRUSADE ENSLAVE THE HEATHENS because it makes for a fun counterpoint in roleplay, while the moderate Amarrians are derided. Meanwhile, the menagerie of Sansha players are concerned the mind-slave-conquest race is getting too grimdark.

Is it just me that sees this contradiction?