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Author Topic: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.  (Read 5152 times)

Matariki Rain

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #30 on: 05 Apr 2011, 13:30 »

Ah, but see Matariki, you keep your 'audience' very small, confined to you and your friends. If you didn't believe the roleplay was for the benefit of those other than yourself, then your character needn't communicate with anyone, talk with anyone, and you wouldn't make an effort to participate in greater world-building excercises. You could merrily construct such concepts in an introverted manner, hoarding the results of your efforts like a pile of dragon's gold.

But the real wonders of RP, and where personal enjoyment is derived from it, for most people anyway, comes from sharing that treasure and effort with other people. Having other actors in the cast, breaking the fourth wall and interacting with the larger audience, that's what makes RP fun.

For you.

I wonder if one of the differences here is that my world-building and aspects of my RP can happen by turning to the person next to me for a chat about our clan. Also that in what feels like the whimsical and retcon-able world of EVE, I like to have a fair bit of my attention focused on a small portion of the world that doesn't directly affect other things and won't attract the attention of the powerful but whimsical world-changing gods. I'm good with ambiguity and different viewpoints (loved Glorantha, for instance) but I find the contradictions, changes and uncertainties about some fundamental things in EVE canon frustrating and distressing. It's hard to extrapolate and world-build when the foundations are so unstable. So I have my clan, my corp, and the alliance we share, and enough people to enjoy those with.

And, er, Casiella did ask if I'd post more background about those. I'm just not sure how much it would be generalisable because I tend to play strongly "this is how Atamahara does it: there are lots of different types of clans since the Rebellion and Foundation, and the clan over there may be very different". Still thinking about that.
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BloodBird

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #31 on: 05 Apr 2011, 14:14 »


Interesting topic. My gut reaction was to agree with Mizhara. But reading the response from Bloodbird/Jesmine about his openness to allow narrative involvement/messing with - his plotline (+in space wars with his corp) is intriguing.

Quick question to Blood/Jesmine ...

If SF wardecced your outfit for 24 hours and brought a bunch of industrials + escort to the planet and established some PI settlements and maintained a couple of hours of space superiority would you be prepared to write-in the establishment of a well-armed anarchist cell in your city that was going to start agitating for the overthrow of your Amarrian ruling class?


@ Jade:

I posted the IGS tread for two reasons; it made sense IC to do so and I was hoping there might be some kind of reaction. I was just not sure what exactly the reaction might be, or who it might come from, or how that might affect Jesmine as a toon and so forth.

So no, I would not mind some collaborative work with SF/you at all, even if I try to stay clear of you IC and OOC, normally.

However, before we do anything it would be nice to know we are both on the same page; kindly explain to me (here or in mail or what, all the same for me) what exactly you think the situation on this planet is, and how it all work, because from the way you asked the questions I get the feeling you may have miss-understood a few things.

No point having two people working together while seeing two different pictures, after all.

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Ulphus

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #32 on: 05 Apr 2011, 14:57 »

Ah, but see Matariki, you keep your 'audience' very small, confined to you and your friends. If you didn't believe the roleplay was for the benefit of those other than yourself, then your character needn't communicate with anyone, talk with anyone, and you wouldn't make an effort to participate in greater world-building excercises. You could merrily construct such concepts in an introverted manner, hoarding the results of your efforts like a pile of dragon's gold.

I get the impression that you think the people doing RP are like actors and everyone else is the audience, and the actors should publish it so that everyone else can appreciate their story; and that Matariki (and indeed myself, and quite a few other people in GRD, and perhaps the wider EM) think that the people doing the RP are the audience, so that if nobody other than the people directly involved finds out, that's not a downside. And if people outside the ones that were there find out, they're likely to do so via rumour and personal recountings which are prone to error and misunderstandings1.

If it would make sense for Matariki or Ulf to go and talk to some other person we've met, then they will, and that person too becomes both actor and audience. The bits of the universe we create are gradually exposed like it would be in the real world. If you have contact with people from Atamahara, you'll find out about bits of Atamahara as it would make sense. You don't have anything to do with Atamahara? you don't need to know.2.

It also seems that you are (or perhaps it's just I am) conflating two things; the discussion about things in the world which anyone could find out (see for example the Voluvala thread http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1373.0 ) and discussion about what people are doing in that world, or about their private affairs which are more difficult for people to find out about.

It does not make sense to me to post stuff on IGS which Ulf wouldn't want public. I have actually posted on IGS, but only when it made sense to do so IC.


1, 2 I consider these features, not bugs.
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Rodj Blake

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #33 on: 06 Apr 2011, 02:26 »


Quick question to Blood/Jesmine ...

If SF wardecced your outfit for 24 hours and brought a bunch of industrials + escort to the planet and established some PI settlements and maintained a couple of hours of space superiority would you be prepared to write-in the establishment of a well-armed anarchist cell in your city that was going to start agitating for the overthrow of your Amarrian ruling class?



I know that the question wasn't aimed at me, but I'm going to answer it anyway  :)

In the above example all that would have been acheived is the construction of some industrial facilities on a planet.  

If the planet was in an Amarrian system, then it stands to reason that the planet is governed by an Amarrian administration.   Since the administration is happy for anyone to drop PI stuff onto the planet, then I think that we can safely assume that either:

* They would have some say over who get to works to work at the facilites, ie only the locals get jobs there
* If off-worlders are allowed, then they would either be segregated from the native population or be closely monitored and have to abide by local laws regarding firearms etc.

Indeed, in the latter case the authorities could use the presence of SF personnel to root out potential trouble-makers!

All this assumes that PI facilities actually have a workforce and aren't completely mechanised of course.
« Last Edit: 06 Apr 2011, 02:28 by Rodj Blake »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #34 on: 06 Apr 2011, 13:41 »

Always an interesting topic.

Regarding unassailable fiction/story threads:

We can write IC circles around each other all day and night, and unless story/plots are agreed ahead of time between conflicting parties, it quickly becomes extremely silly and generally uninteresting he said/she said ad infinitum. It also removes any chance for unconsentual involvement from those who may be interested but are not fans of OOC involvement behind the scenes for the sake of a good story.

The only neutral arbitrator we have in this game to effect these sorts of things are actions in space.  We are limited in our toolsets to have results that can not be disputed/argued, and actions in space are often the best tools.  Actions in space don't solve every issue or circumstance, but in my eyes and I know a lot of yours, it does add credibility and a chance to effect the outcomes. No I can't destroy your planetary colony (yet), but I can as Jade suggested send ships in, industrials, and blockade the space around the colony, adding credibility to my side of the story, etc. 

Wardecs are also limited tools in this regard but we generally seem to accept results of combat as determining quite a few things RP wise, as it is an unbiased and indisputable arbitrator of results.   




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Lyn Farel

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #35 on: 07 Apr 2011, 05:46 »

Well as much as I agree, I don't know how many of you have RPed on other MMOs when you constantly have to resort to such things because the game system just does not support them ? Bar brawls to a faction military base setting up in the enemy's territory ? We always have to use OOC communication behind, it is the very basis of any roleplay event.

And this is an event we are talking about.
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Bureeiku

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #36 on: 07 Apr 2011, 08:15 »

TBH, this: (unless its is a poetry contest or something equally removed from realpolitik)
...well anyway, no wonder why everyone is like that on the IGS, the goal of most people always seems to be "PUNCH HIM DOWN, PUNCH HIM DOWN". I can understand that from radicals of course, but it always sounds like a testosterone contest.

But that's a digression.  On topic: What we are talking about is essentially out-of-game roleplay.  It is in-character, and set within the EVE universe.  And it has no in-game mechanics, though it can have in-game results, if for example your character got mad and made war in-game.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - sounds fun in fact - but just be aware of it's limitations and how it requires either great flexibility to whatever unpredictable contribution someone may inject, or lots of ooc talk to set the rules straight before/during.  And this does happen a lot on IGS already.

Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.

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Kaleigh Doyle

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #37 on: 07 Apr 2011, 12:52 »

I guess the real question is: could a scenario have been re-arranged to better allow interaction in-game with opportunities for opposition to prevent the antagonist from succeeding? Perhaps. Was this their goal and should it be?
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Ulphus

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #38 on: 07 Apr 2011, 14:19 »

Well as much as I agree, I don't know how many of you have RPed on other MMOs when you constantly have to resort to such things because the game system just does not support them ?

I've never played another MMO before eve (and only a week or so of LoTRO as a trial), so I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around this.

It seems to me that one of the attractions of Eve for many people is the genuine striving between people/corps/alliances/factions, and that it is difficult to reconcile arranging a conclusion before hand through OOC channels with that striving for dominance.

When I hear stories about the ancient history of EM where there were OOC agreements with our enemies regarding when to fight and how many ships to bring, I just shake my head and think it was a different age. I have difficulty imagining that happening now. That's probably because the immersionists in EM have ascendency at the moment, and they'd rather negotiate and choose actions from the point of view of their characters, not the point of view of their players.

I think the stories are probably different in character, but I don't know that either is inherently better or worse.

Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.

I agree. Further, I think if you have been fighting as hard as you can in your games-rules interactions, it's difficult to compromise enough for non-rules interactions to be satisfying for both sides.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #39 on: 07 Apr 2011, 14:31 »

Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.

I agree. Further, I think if you have been fighting as hard as you can in your games-rules interactions, it's difficult to compromise enough for non-rules interactions to be satisfying for both sides.

For better and for worse, this.
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #40 on: 07 Apr 2011, 21:00 »

Ah, but see Matariki, you keep your 'audience' very small, confined to you and your friends. If you didn't believe the roleplay was for the benefit of those other than yourself, then your character needn't communicate with anyone, talk with anyone, and you wouldn't make an effort to participate in greater world-building excercises. You could merrily construct such concepts in an introverted manner, hoarding the results of your efforts like a pile of dragon's gold.

I get the impression that you think the people doing RP are like actors and everyone else is the audience, and the actors should publish it so that everyone else can appreciate their story; and that Matariki (and indeed myself, and quite a few other people in GRD, and perhaps the wider EM) think that the people doing the RP are the audience, so that if nobody other than the people directly involved finds out, that's not a downside. And if people outside the ones that were there find out, they're likely to do so via rumour and personal recountings which are prone to error and misunderstandings1.

If it would make sense for Matariki or Ulf to go and talk to some other person we've met, then they will, and that person too becomes both actor and audience. The bits of the universe we create are gradually exposed like it would be in the real world. If you have contact with people from Atamahara, you'll find out about bits of Atamahara as it would make sense. You don't have anything to do with Atamahara? you don't need to know.2.

It also seems that you are (or perhaps it's just I am) conflating two things; the discussion about things in the world which anyone could find out (see for example the Voluvala thread http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1373.0 ) and discussion about what people are doing in that world, or about their private affairs which are more difficult for people to find out about.

It does not make sense to me to post stuff on IGS which Ulf wouldn't want public. I have actually posted on IGS, but only when it made sense to do so IC.


1, 2 I consider these features, not bugs.


Perhaps I wasn't quite clear, I don't think you came away with the perspective I intended, in any case.

Clearly, the participants in a given roleplaying situation, are, indeed, actors, by definition. Those not directly impacted by that event are the 'audience'. In roleplay the actors and the audience are defined and redefined dynamically. Silent readers of a forum or blog may put their ships and pilots on the line and participate in a war, for instance, because they were motivated by the roleplaying going on. That's called breaking the fourth wall.

I draw the distinction between actors and audience, because, in some case, not everybody is involved in everything always. Sometimes, people just want only actors. But the audience doesn't need to exist right now at this instant. Some future audience, people reading forum archives, for instance, will come across it an appreciate the roleplay that occurred.

Electus Matari and Gradient are well-known for having highly insulated roleplaying environments, and that isn't a bad thing at all, really. But I believe, still, that you're not roleplaying for your own selfish reasons. I doubt very much any of this is treated with same as a random day dream about 'how great would it be if there was a society or civilization like this". Eve online roleplay is about interaction with other players, primarily because the game is about interactions with other players. And thus the dynamic of actors/audience  is introduced.

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Lyn Farel

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Re: Fictional endeavors and imbalance.
« Reply #41 on: 08 Apr 2011, 03:21 »

Well as much as I agree, I don't know how many of you have RPed on other MMOs when you constantly have to resort to such things because the game system just does not support them ?

I've never played another MMO before eve (and only a week or so of LoTRO as a trial), so I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around this.

It seems to me that one of the attractions of Eve for many people is the genuine striving between people/corps/alliances/factions, and that it is difficult to reconcile arranging a conclusion before hand through OOC channels with that striving for dominance.

When I hear stories about the ancient history of EM where there were OOC agreements with our enemies regarding when to fight and how many ships to bring, I just shake my head and think it was a different age. I have difficulty imagining that happening now. That's probably because the immersionists in EM have ascendency at the moment, and they'd rather negotiate and choose actions from the point of view of their characters, not the point of view of their players.

I think the stories are probably different in character, but I don't know that either is inherently better or worse.

Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.

I agree. Further, I think if you have been fighting as hard as you can in your games-rules interactions, it's difficult to compromise enough for non-rules interactions to be satisfying for both sides.



Bureeiku said it better than I did. I was mentionning all the RP that can't be taken in account by the game mechanisms. Eve is awesome for this, a lot of things are included and can be decided by the gameplay itself (1000 times more than in any other MMO, because its a damn good sandbox). But whatever we can try, there will always be some situations where we have to resort to the old OOC mediation between players because the gameplay does not support it. The most common examples being in a RP bar channel when you have a brawl, or even when the admin is kicking you out because you breached a purely RP fictionnal rule. All of this is not part of the game mechanic.
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