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Author Topic: TonyG  (Read 14403 times)

Borza

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #60 on: 04 Apr 2011, 07:37 »

Maybe, maybe not. Just because it was sprung upon us suddenly doesn't mean CCP didn't plan it all along.

I don't care if they planned this from the very moment they started selling Hættuspil. The way they executed it was still awful.

I neither said nor implied otherwise.
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #61 on: 04 Apr 2011, 10:08 »

A lot of opportunities were missed by the Empyrean Age story, some of which would have genuinely made for a better story.

One example I thought up which Rodj Blake of all people seemed to like was the idea that, during the Elder invasion, no-one turns up to save the day. The Elder Armada is eventually forced back by a concerted, desperate effort by the various Imperial fleets, but for the first time in decades, the Minmatar have actually won. The Empire is in very serious disarray. At this point, two possibilities present themselves, either of which I'd find infinitely more exciting and interesting than the Jamyl Sarum arc:

Option #1: Blaming the Heirs for "creating the strife and disunity that allowed this atrocity to occur", Karsoth uses the confusion to attempt to further consolidate his increasingly illegitimate control over the Empire, working to pervert its people towards the teachings of the Blood Raiders. The Heirs, of course, turn against him, inciting an internal conflict between those loyal to Karsoth (aware or unaware of his true intentions) and those loyal to the Heirs (and the true spirit of the Empire, such as it is).

Option #2: The Heirs pin the blame for the tragedy on Karsoth, and are able to depose him in favour of a new chamberlain. Hasty succession trials are held. From this point, depending on which Heir successfully completes the trials, any number of things could happen. The ascendancy of Catiz Tash-Murkon would be particularly interesting - she would surely strengthen the Empire's industrial and economic bases, but both her ascendancy itself and some of her reforms would likely utterly outrage traditionalists and hardliners like the Ardishapur and Sarum families.

Either way, the Empire would be fighting both an external and an internal war - with the Minmatar, and with dissenting elements within itself.

Also, the Elder Fleet, as ass-pulled as it was, represented an utterly criminal missed opportunity - to rid the world of CONCORD completely, or at least relegate it to a vestigial, mostly-powerless organisation. Have hi-sec rapid-response handled by faction navies instead. Free the Empires from the shackles of CONCORD oversight and have an ACTUAL war.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #62 on: 04 Apr 2011, 10:52 »

Yeah I agree with Andy, the whole thing reeked of pushing a huge feature for the sake of pushing a huge feature. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't mean anything.
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Casiella

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #63 on: 04 Apr 2011, 12:06 »

I actually joined EVE in 2007 largely due to the expectations for FW (also WiS, but that's another story). Before it launched, I formed a corp expressly for Matari FW and we (17TW) joined it Day 1.

Some of you know the ignominious downfall of the corp, its resurgence in new form thanks to Neu and Eran, and later quiet death. I attribute large chunks of that to the fact that CCP has essentially abandoned it, even after all the huge promotion it got in form of the book, lots of IC news, etc.

FW had the potential to turn into one of the cornerstones of EVE: make occupation worth something, allow the loyalist alliances to join in some fashion, link the payoff activity (missions) and the warfare activity (plexing) , etc etc.

So not only do we have a poorly-written book, we have ham-fisted worldbuilding (per Andreus's post) and a broken/abandoned feature that has bitterly disappointed many, many people.

Bleh, I'm reverting to :bittervet: status and I'd rather not. I need to go dig back up my EVE plans for this quarter and re-energize myself.
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Ken

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #64 on: 04 Apr 2011, 12:17 »

EA is "written backwards".
...
To me, Incursion, despite having better mechanics, is an example of CCP just making the same mistakes over again.
Absolutely right, Andreus.  Excellent summation of the failures.  Ultimately, it's not the elements of the story or even the writers (whatever our opinions of their skill or vision) that drive the development of EVE's fictional universe.  It's the video game.
A: "We want to do new low-level PvP content for the next expansion."

B: "What if the empires, like, invaded each other and you could fight for them?  That'd be awesome."

C: "How about having the Thukkers start it all?  They're the least likely faction out there.  That'd be cool."

A: "Sure, sounds good.  Make it happen."

...

A: "We want to do new high-level PvE content for the next expansion."

B: "What if the pirates, like, invaded hi-sec and you could fight against them?  That'd be awesome."

C: "How about having Sansha come through w-space?  They're the scariest faction out there.  That'd be cool."

A: "Sure, sounds good.  Make it happen."
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #65 on: 04 Apr 2011, 19:54 »

I mean, once they add a story-based mechanic - factional warfare, Incursions - they are either going to have to keep it that way forever or at some point they're going to have to remove or change them. Are the empires really going to be fighting the same war over the same territory forever, until CCP finally shuts the game down? Are the Sansha going to be invading hi-sec and low-sec using precisely the same strategies forever, until CCP finally shuts the game down?

And there's always the danger that Incursions will become as stale and broken as FW. My god, CCP, what the fuck have you done?
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Casiella

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #66 on: 04 Apr 2011, 20:08 »

FWIW, in the case of the Incursions, I seem to recall hearing in some Fanfest session that the Sansha incursion would eventually end in some way, to be "replaced" by another. Not to say they'll ever, you know, do it.
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Crucifire

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #67 on: 05 Apr 2011, 01:46 »

FWIW, in the case of the Incursions, I seem to recall hearing in some Fanfest session that the Sansha incursion would eventually end in some way, to be "replaced" by another. Not to say they'll ever, you know, do it.
Oh thank God. If this is true then it's the best news I've read all day.
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #68 on: 05 Apr 2011, 09:19 »

Okay...no one is going to be more surprised than me about what I'm about to post here, but the amount of bile I'm seeing spewed is really starting to be a little excessive, even to me.

I'm certainly no fan of TEA -- I still get people coming up to me at FanFest to talk to me about my review of the book, and I still stand by most of the criticism I put in that blog post, despite the fact that I have mellowed somewhat on the vitriol that permeates much of the review. I am still not particularly happy with what that book did to the Caldari, nor do I particularly like the simplification of the factions that it did overall. Tony saying "who remembered anything about tube children?" in his presentation in 2008 is still something that causes me to grind my teeth into dust to this day.

However, that very same presentation shed a lot of light on a great many of the problems with that book which were technical and process-oriented, which I suspect severely impacted the quality of that book overall. The problems Tony talked about with the publisher -- having to edit his own work and do it on a very short timetable, to start with -- as well as the fact that it sounds like CCP did not really have any sort of storyline planning process at that point, with much of the events being dictated by other departments within the company, whether it was content, or game design, or marketing, or whoever, is not conducive to the creation of a great work of literature.

That does not excuse some of the creative decisions, but I think people would be surprised what a good editor can do to your writing. Having someone who can say to you "hey, don't you think this is a little over the top" or "I don't know, what if instead of X you had Y happen, because I think that would make character Z stronger", especially someone who has done this with many other writers, makes a huge difference. A good editor does a lot more than correct typos. When you don't have that editor there, and when you're doing everything on a very tight schedule, especially for a first time author (of a novel at least), you are bound to get something that feels very rough and uneven. And that's compounded when you don't have as much flexibility as you'd like because of external demands. I have talked to Tony a number of times at FanFest and elsewhere, when I've been lucky enough to get a few minutes of his time, and frankly, the first time I did so it was extremely embarrassing for me, personally and professionally, because I was thinking of the book purely as a creative endeavor and made the same mistake most of you seem to be -- TEA was, in large part, a marketing tool more than anything else, and I suspect, considering what CCP has said about the sales and a lot of the responses I heard at FanFest 2008, it was largely successful in that respect. I ended up berating him in a way that he did not particularly deserve and I still regret that -- well, I suppose loosely it could be called a conversation -- to this day.

For his part, whatever you may think of TEA or his other work, I have found Tony to be extremely willing to listen and respond to criticism when it is presented cogently and not with the insane hysterics of a wounded fangirl. Frankly, no one is more surprised than I am that he has actually been willing to talk to me after that first encounter and engage me on a topic that clearly I am very passionate about, and has been one of the most gracious people I've met when it comes to taking criticism without getting defensive, which I think it is fair to say is something I could work on myself.

I understand how many of you (especially on the Caldari side) may feel about what he's written. However, I would caution you against making this some sort of personal beef with Tony himself, because a great deal of what you probably have a problem with is not entirely his fault, and I don't think he is particularly deserving of the kind of bile I've seen some people throw around. Three years ago at FanFest, Tony was also the person who told me they really needed to do something like what the "immersion project" the content panel this year talked about seems to be doing (and is definitely necessary) -- there's no real central repository for most of that Eve canon right now, and when you are just one person that does make it hard to keep track of some of those more esoteric details. I know the Caldari like the back of my hand, but there's still some stuff with them that escapes me at times, and when it comes to the other factions I definitely have holes in my knowledge -- can anyone else here say differently? That another reason why a good editor or a researcher might have been good when TEA was written, but that just wasn't there at the time.

I've not really had the chance to talk to Abraxas (and after what I subjected Tony to, maybe that's for the best), and I admit I don't really like the style of his chrons at all, but I suspect the same pressures Tony had when he wrote his novel are there when Abraxas is doing his writing, so try to keep that in mind before you start throwing stones. You guys can be as upset as you want about what they've written, but it is a little painful to me to see people personalizing the problem so much because I made the same mistake all those years ago, and I don't like reliving that memory. If you really want to encourage the storyline of Eve to be better, you need to encourage CCP to make the storyline a bigger part of what goes into Eve's development -- personally, that's what I've been most disappointed by the last year or two, that the storyline seems to have slowly been pushed more and more to the wayside. That may be a business decision, but I'd like to think that an encompassing storyline that evolves over the course of months and years is one of the things that really makes Eve different from other MMOs, and is something else that is only possible because of CCP's unique commitment to the single-shard nature of the game. If you want storyline to be an important and integral part of the game, rather than an afterthought, the people who feel that way at CCP -- which I think Tony, Abraxas, and all the other writers at CCP are included in -- are your best advocates. However, you need to help them show that there is a business case for making storyline a strong aspect of Eve, and making it seem like nothing they do will ever be right or enough for you is not a good way to make the case.

CCP is a business, and they have to make business decisions, and hiring writers, editors, and people to fact check stuff, like I think we all want to see, all takes money. That's also money they could spend on game designers, programmers, and marketing guys. All of those things are stuff CCP thinks will help them make money. If you really want to help make Eve's storyline better, you should try to come up with ways it can be used to strengthen the rest of the game and show CCP that it helps get and retain customers. And quite frankly, from what I understand, that is exactly what Tony's job description is.

I haven't read Abraxas' book yet (though the CAIN crew at FanFest bought it for me this year, in the hopes that I would review it -- which I will after I finish the second Song of Ice and Fire novel) but I can tell you that when I do it will be with a much different eye than I read TEA, and I am actually very curious to read Tony's new book -- I know that I may not like it, but I also want to see how he has developed as a writer and (hopefully) what a better process for writing has done to his work.

I also want to say that the storyline CCP has had over the course of the last few years since TEA, despite maybe not being paced the best, has been pretty good, and it's clear that a lot of the nuance some people may think was lost in TEA is not completely gone.

</soapbox>
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #69 on: 05 Apr 2011, 09:39 »

Sooo... Svetlana for CSM7!  Sersiously, you should run.   You'll need three to four thousand votes to make it on which I'm certain you could get on a RP platform.   

After CSM6, I have a sliver of hope that CCP might care what the players have to say again.   
« Last Edit: 05 Apr 2011, 09:46 by Hamish Grayson »
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #70 on: 05 Apr 2011, 10:18 »

Sooo... Svetlana for CSM7!  Sersiously, you should run.   You'll need three to four thousand votes to make it on which I'm certain you could get on a RP platform.   

After CSM6, I have a sliver of hope that CCP might care what the players have to say again.

I don't think so, not right now. Maybe I'll change my mind in a year, but right now, I can't see myself doing that. Despite what some people on the forums seem to think, I'm sure it's a heck of a lot of work, and to be quite honest my Eve time has been nonexistent for the most part this last year.

I just wanted to post because Tony and the other folks who really do care about the storyline at CCP don't deserve the kind of bile I was seeing thrown at them here. After meeting them in real life and acting the way I did, I feel like I owe it to them to make sure people give them a fair shake. Honestly, I feel pretty grateful to Tony in particular for being willing to talk to me, despite knowing how I felt about his book, and for the insight he gave me into the business end of storyline development, such as it is. I was really disappointed to miss both the content panel and his presentation on Friday at FanFest, even if the reason I did was because we were on our way to winning the tournament.

It's really easy to hurl invectives at some amorphous boogeyman -- it's a lot harder when you've met the guy in person and he's still willing to talk to you about the same sorts of things year after year.
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Casiella

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #71 on: 05 Apr 2011, 10:43 »

I'm glad you posted that and I'll have a more substantial response later...

...after lunch. ;)
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #72 on: 05 Apr 2011, 12:25 »

I will also say that I have issues with the way factional warfare was done from a game design/worldbuilding standpoint -- I am certainly disappointed with the way it turned out, and while I don't know if I'd go as far as Andreus and say it wasn't necessary at all, I do think the wrong approach might have been taken. Were I in charge, I would have kept the state of war much quieter and simply made players able to sign up as privateers for the various empires, and slowly worked in the capture mechanics in a contained "disputed territory." I think that would have been a simpler engineering task and a better storyline choice. However, the problem with that is that from a marketing point of view, it's much harder to sell slowly evolving mechanics than entirely new systems straight out of the box.

When I reviewed TEA, I was reviewing it in a vacuum, however, and trying to judge it like I would a piece of tie-in fiction I might read for a pen and paper RPG, where the book really doesn't necessarily tie in to some huge new part of the game -- marketing for a pen and paper game tends to focus on broadening the world of the game, not the depth of the game system itself (because generally, people can only handle so much complexity -- less of an issue when it comes to a multi-faceted massively multiplayer computer game). And, if I understand right, that's where most people here are going with their criticism -- TEA is a failure to them because it wasn't up to the standards they set for a standalone work of fiction.

Tony has said in his presentations that he wishes he had been given more time and that there's a lot he wishes he had done better with TEA. However, you have to understand that for CCP, TEA seems to have been a success from a sales and marketing standpoint, at least from what I understand. And quite honestly, when I was at FanFest that first year, there were a lot of people who were saying they really liked the book. That doesn't make it a great book (lots of people like lots of really crappy books, after all) but it does mean that for CCP, it probably achieved the goals they set out for it.

That is a good thing. Why? Because if the storyline can be used to help get people interested in Eve, and keep them interested, that's a business reason to devote resources to the storyline. If even a book that you might think was a mediocre read did that much for the game, then there's that much more reason to make sure the next one is even better. So, instead of condemning Tony for writing TEA, you should be trying to suggest ways to improve the way the storyline is used in the game and ways to make sure the kinds of elaborate, nuanced stories I think we all want to see are possible. You should be trying to show that the storyline is something that you and your friends -- your valuable paying customer friends -- consider to be a strength of the game as much as the market or 0.0 warfare. You need to show that the a good storyline gives CCP as much good press as the Mittani's machinations. If Tony or whoever can sit down at some executive meeting and say "hey, we really want to hire two more writers to do this kind of fiction stuff" and then they can pull out Kyoko's movies or Istvaan's stories and say "look, these got X number of views and we can correlate this to this jump in subscribers, and we got this for free just because we had this strong a story that inspired players to make these things," that's evidence even someone who thinks story in Eve is about as valuable as story in Battleship will find hard to dismiss.

That doesn't mean you have to grovel and thank CCP for tossing you whatever scraps of a story they are willing to give you, and you can certainly criticize them, but telling them that stuff that worked out well for the company is a bunch of shit and they should fire all their writers is not going to get you taken seriously -- it just means that when you do make a good suggestion, you're likely to just be ignored as a crazy RP nerd.
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #73 on: 09 Apr 2011, 01:36 »

I will also say that I have issues with the way factional warfare was done from a game design/worldbuilding standpoint -- I am certainly disappointed with the way it turned out, and while I don't know if I'd go as far as Andreus and say it wasn't necessary at all

Why not? What has it really added to the story or the game?
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Lyn Farel

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #74 on: 09 Apr 2011, 03:44 »

I will also say that I have issues with the way factional warfare was done from a game design/worldbuilding standpoint -- I am certainly disappointed with the way it turned out, and while I don't know if I'd go as far as Andreus and say it wasn't necessary at all

Why not? What has it really added to the story or the game?

Not a lot. It was just a good (broken) addition to the gameplay. :/

Though there is something I have been thinking recently : it looks like to me we had in the past a lot more conservatives and radicals very close to the original litteral understanding of every race, and now we have more liberals. Maybe it is tied to it, maybe it is not, but I feel that passing from a state of peace to a state of war has changed the mentalities. I mean, people tended to push to the conflict before, now they are more enclined to try to cover the gap (not all, mind you, fortunately).
« Last Edit: 09 Apr 2011, 03:46 by Lyn Farel »
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