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Author Topic: TonyG  (Read 14413 times)

Morwen Lagann

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #45 on: 03 Apr 2011, 03:25 »

Read Aria's post again, Laerise:
That would make for a certain pleasant symmetry, but makes comparatively little sense from a strategic standpoint. The Geddon, Typhoon, and Domi can all serve pretty well as direct combat ships. The Scorpion's primary role is ECM (unless you're talking about the new Navy variant), which makes it very useful but likely not the world's greatest mainstay of the fleet, particularly when the "enemy" loves drones so much.

The Raven, at least, is much with the kaboom.

Also read the ship descriptions:

Quote from: Raven description
The Raven is the powerhouse of the Caldari Navy. With its myriad launcher slots and powerful shields, few ships can rival it in strength or majesty.

Quote from: Scorpion description
The first Scorpion-class battleship was launched only a couple of years ago, and those that have been built are considered to be prototypes. Little is known of its capabilities, but what has been garnered suggests that the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match.

TonyG claims in TEA that the Raven is the new ship that is only a couple years old. The Scorpion's description ingame has not been changed since I started playing EVE in late 2007, and presumably hasn't been changed since it was put in the game in the first place. TEA came out in mid 2008. The math says something's wrong here, and it isn't the ingame description.

[spoiler]It's TonyG's claim that the Raven is the newer ship.[/spoiler]
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Saana

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #46 on: 03 Apr 2011, 04:28 »

The Raven is a new ship, not in TEA, but in Ruthless. (Edit: Actually, if TEA claims somewhere it's new, then it's referring to Ruthless, where only one prototype existed. I wasn't around back then, so no idea if there were any built by capsuleers by that time.)
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KJLLV

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #47 on: 03 Apr 2011, 05:37 »

That's already happening, I think.

Everything Khanid (Bloodline) and Khanid (Kingdom) seems to be getting the retcon merge.

And for those of us who saw the writing on the wall when Bloodlines came out, it'll be a sad vindication of sorts if that retcon goes through.

The Raven is a new ship, not in TEA, but in Ruthless. (Edit: Actually, if TEA claims somewhere it's new, then it's referring to Ruthless, where only one prototype existed. I wasn't around back then, so no idea if there were any built by capsuleers by that time.)

Both Ruthless and TEA are written by TonyG. Regardless of which one says the Raven is new, he is still wrong.
« Last Edit: 03 Apr 2011, 05:46 by KJLLV »
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Casiella

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #48 on: 03 Apr 2011, 08:31 »

How does that disagree with what Aria said?
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #49 on: 04 Apr 2011, 04:35 »

Everything about the Empyrean Age - novel, supporting fiction, game expansion - felt wrong. Like it was written totally backwards. So many opportunities for good, involving stories were utterly ruined by it, in fact, that I see it almost as the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy of EVE. Almost everything felt like it was asspulled.

You take a look at the Gallente-Caldari conflict, and this is an example of what I mean when I say EA is "written backwards". For the five or so years before EA, it looked like elements within the Federation were building up a repertoire of pretexts to invade the State - protein delicacies, border disputes, the Kassigainen incident, etc. - and we were given a distinct impression from prime fiction that the State, given that it's a gestalt entity, was far from monolithic, with its various corps and megacorps quietly squabbling among themselves. State Factionalism implied that the mere existence of factions showed how the State was fraying a little at the edges.

It should have been built up far more slowly, possibly over the course of a year or two, with Foiritan slowly losing his political duel with Blaque, who, as head of the senate, still wields a great deal of clout. Blaque would exaggerate issues with the State or outright invent them and use Foiritan's inability (real or imagined) to deal with them to portray him as weak. He keeps playing this - slowly, carefully - until he's built up enough of a position to call a vote of no confidence and force a new presidential election, which he, of course, wins. He then agitates at the border, carefully and patiently baiting the Caldari Navy into a series of ever more serious indescretions to justify his ever-increasing defence budget. This would also have been an excellent opportunity to increase military presence in the Intaki and Mannar systems (i.e. change them to hi-sec security status) and thus his control over the Federation's member states under the pretext of protecting them from the ever-increasing Caldari threat.

Black Rise appearing out of nowhere was an utter wallbanger as well. The notion that the State would, just after the outbreak of war, having in utter secrecy just colonised a region almost everyone else believed was unreachable, suddenly not only reveal to the world that they've done it, but connect it to the territories of their greatest adversary with high-throughput stargates is utterly preposterous.

Heth... just shouldn't exist. At all. He's a singular unifying force that should not exist within an entity such as the State. He ruins the whole idea of the Caldari State for me.

Gigantic asspull superweapon aside, Jamyl Sarum arriving and taking power uncontested was dreadful. It just did not fit with the picture CCP had painted of the Amarr Empire, in which the Great Houses (besides Sarum, of course) would all have their own very specific reasons not to just let her walk in and take what they all saw as rightfully theirs.

The Elder Fleet appearing out of nowhere was atrocious. At the very least it should have been hinted at beforehand. Fundamentally their attack did nothing measureable besides actually starting the Empyrean wars and provide a suitable exclamation mark for the entire problem with Empyrean Age:

The concept itself.

Empyrean Age as its own entity - expansion, novel, fiction - is so shackled to the concept of implementing something - factional warfare - that it in some cases leaves itself unable to avoid making mistakes. Looking back, we had to ask ourselves - what has factional warfare added to the game, and have those additions been positive or negative? In reality, all it's really done is add a (very, very, very, very, very buggy) mechanic that changes a couple of variables in a system if you orbit something for roughly 6 hours and a free wardec. The changes it's made to PF are overwhelmingly negative, and have destroyed many much better routes the story could have taken. I'll elaborate on those later, but I want to keep mainly on topic here.

In essence, yes, TonyG's writing is subpar, but TonyG's writing is only part of the problem. In the grand scheme of things EVE didn't need factional warfare. We know the empires distrust and hate each other. We know they're working to undermine each other's power. We know that they all have agendas and ulterior motives, even for co-operating with their allies. We don't need either ourselves or the story to be shackled to an endless, unwinnable war to know all of this.

The war is three years old this June and it's destroyed friendships, ruined lives, uprooted perfectly good RP corporations and it's not even any more entertaining or meaningful than the Red vs Blue war.

To me, Incursion, despite having better mechanics, is an example of CCP just making the same mistakes over again.
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Borza

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #50 on: 04 Apr 2011, 05:23 »


The Elder Fleet appearing out of nowhere was atrocious. At the very least it should have been hinted at beforehand. Fundamentally their attack did nothing measureable besides actually starting the Empyrean wars and provide a suitable exclamation mark for the entire problem with Empyrean Age
Well the preparations were secret but in retrospect I think there was some subtle hints of the Thukkers being Up To Something years before, e.g...
[spoiler]
Quote from: Chieftain Einnar Aeboul, 2005
After much deliberation, the Thukker Tribe Council has decided that our resources at this time will allow us to take in all 40,000 of these people, feed them, clothe them and house them - provided that you are willing and able to give them transport to our facilities. We are currently in the midst of a large-scale undertaking, one which I cannot go into greater detail about here, but one which will give these downtrodden souls an opportunity to fashion new lives for themselves among their own people, undertaking meaningful work in the pursuit of new horizons.
[/spoiler]
The invasion did manage to retrieve the Starkmanir tribe...
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Lyn Farel

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #51 on: 04 Apr 2011, 05:41 »

Everything about the Empyrean Age - novel, supporting fiction, game expansion - felt wrong. Like it was written totally backwards. So many opportunities for good, involving stories were utterly ruined by it, in fact, that I see it almost as the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy of EVE. Almost everything felt like it was asspulled.

You take a look at the Gallente-Caldari conflict, and this is an example of what I mean when I say EA is "written backwards". For the five or so years before EA, it looked like elements within the Federation were building up a repertoire of pretexts to invade the State - protein delicacies, border disputes, the Kassigainen incident, etc. - and we were given a distinct impression from prime fiction that the State, given that it's a gestalt entity, was far from monolithic, with its various corps and megacorps quietly squabbling among themselves. State Factionalism implied that the mere existence of factions showed how the State was fraying a little at the edges.

It should have been built up far more slowly, possibly over the course of a year or two, with Foiritan slowly losing his political duel with Blaque, who, as head of the senate, still wields a great deal of clout. Blaque would exaggerate issues with the State or outright invent them and use Foiritan's inability (real or imagined) to deal with them to portray him as weak. He keeps playing this - slowly, carefully - until he's built up enough of a position to call a vote of no confidence and force a new presidential election, which he, of course, wins. He then agitates at the border, carefully and patiently baiting the Caldari Navy into a series of ever more serious indescretions to justify his ever-increasing defence budget. This would also have been an excellent opportunity to increase military presence in the Intaki and Mannar systems (i.e. change them to hi-sec security status) and thus his control over the Federation's member states under the pretext of protecting them from the ever-increasing Caldari threat.

Black Rise appearing out of nowhere was an utter wallbanger as well. The notion that the State would, just after the outbreak of war, having in utter secrecy just colonised a region almost everyone else believed was unreachable, suddenly not only reveal to the world that they've done it, but connect it to the territories of their greatest adversary with high-throughput stargates is utterly preposterous.

Heth... just shouldn't exist. At all. He's a singular unifying force that should not exist within an entity such as the State. He ruins the whole idea of the Caldari State for me.

Gigantic asspull superweapon aside, Jamyl Sarum arriving and taking power uncontested was dreadful. It just did not fit with the picture CCP had painted of the Amarr Empire, in which the Great Houses (besides Sarum, of course) would all have their own very specific reasons not to just let her walk in and take what they all saw as rightfully theirs.

The Elder Fleet appearing out of nowhere was atrocious. At the very least it should have been hinted at beforehand. Fundamentally their attack did nothing measureable besides actually starting the Empyrean wars and provide a suitable exclamation mark for the entire problem with Empyrean Age:

The concept itself.

Empyrean Age as its own entity - expansion, novel, fiction - is so shackled to the concept of implementing something - factional warfare - that it in some cases leaves itself unable to avoid making mistakes. Looking back, we had to ask ourselves - what has factional warfare added to the game, and have those additions been positive or negative? In reality, all it's really done is add a (very, very, very, very, very buggy) mechanic that changes a couple of variables in a system if you orbit something for roughly 6 hours and a free wardec. The changes it's made to PF are overwhelmingly negative, and have destroyed many much better routes the story could have taken. I'll elaborate on those later, but I want to keep mainly on topic here.

In essence, yes, TonyG's writing is subpar, but TonyG's writing is only part of the problem. In the grand scheme of things EVE didn't need factional warfare. We know the empires distrust and hate each other. We know they're working to undermine each other's power. We know that they all have agendas and ulterior motives, even for co-operating with their allies. We don't need either ourselves or the story to be shackled to an endless, unwinnable war to know all of this.

The war is three years old this June and it's destroyed friendships, ruined lives, uprooted perfectly good RP corporations and it's not even any more entertaining or meaningful than the Red vs Blue war.

To me, Incursion, despite having better mechanics, is an example of CCP just making the same mistakes over again.


^This, definitly.

Except for the end. I quite enjoy myself in FW, still here since almost his beginning just after I left Solitude. There are some good idea in the FW, like the complexes (<- anti blob stuff, skirmish++). It is just broken (but everyone knows that), though the gameplay is cool.

RP wise... it is mostly shaky yes.
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Horatius Caul

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #52 on: 04 Apr 2011, 05:55 »

Never thought I would ever agree completely with Andreus. A sign of the end times, I'm certain.

Mathra Hiede

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #53 on: 04 Apr 2011, 05:55 »


The Elder Fleet appearing out of nowhere was atrocious. At the very least it should have been hinted at beforehand. Fundamentally their attack did nothing measureable besides actually starting the Empyrean wars and provide a suitable exclamation mark for the entire problem with Empyrean Age
Well the preparations were secret but in retrospect I think there was some subtle hints of the Thukkers being Up To Something years before, e.g...
[spoiler]
Quote from: Chieftain Einnar Aeboul, 2005
After much deliberation, the Thukker Tribe Council has decided that our resources at this time will allow us to take in all 40,000 of these people, feed them, clothe them and house them - provided that you are willing and able to give them transport to our facilities. We are currently in the midst of a large-scale undertaking, one which I cannot go into greater detail about here, but one which will give these downtrodden souls an opportunity to fashion new lives for themselves among their own people, undertaking meaningful work in the pursuit of new horizons.
[/spoiler]
The invasion did manage to retrieve the Starkmanir tribe...

Which, by previous PF was a dead tribe and what was left had been absorbed into the Ammatar, but suddenly the Ammatar are the 'good guys' shielding the Starkmanir from the Imperial oversight.

Which somehow happened beneath the gaze of people like "The Speakers of Truth" and the ruthless Theology council.

So, yes - it was a fabricated reason.
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Borza

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #54 on: 04 Apr 2011, 06:04 »


So, yes - it was a fabricated reason.

Maybe, maybe not. Just because it was sprung upon us suddenly doesn't mean CCP didn't plan it all along.


I agree with many U'K members however that FW has been bad for RP and RP conflict.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #55 on: 04 Apr 2011, 07:09 »

Everything about the Empyrean Age - novel, supporting fiction, game expansion - felt wrong. Like it was written totally backwards. So many opportunities for good, involving stories were utterly ruined by it, in fact, that I see it almost as the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy of EVE. Almost everything felt like it was asspulled.

You take a look at the Gallente-Caldari conflict, and this is an example of what I mean when I say EA is "written backwards". For the five or so years before EA, it looked like elements within the Federation were building up a repertoire of pretexts to invade the State - protein delicacies, border disputes, the Kassigainen incident, etc. - and we were given a distinct impression from prime fiction that the State, given that it's a gestalt entity, was far from monolithic, with its various corps and megacorps quietly squabbling among themselves. State Factionalism implied that the mere existence of factions showed how the State was fraying a little at the edges.

It should have been built up far more slowly, possibly over the course of a year or two, with Foiritan slowly losing his political duel with Blaque, who, as head of the senate, still wields a great deal of clout. Blaque would exaggerate issues with the State or outright invent them and use Foiritan's inability (real or imagined) to deal with them to portray him as weak. He keeps playing this - slowly, carefully - until he's built up enough of a position to call a vote of no confidence and force a new presidential election, which he, of course, wins. He then agitates at the border, carefully and patiently baiting the Caldari Navy into a series of ever more serious indescretions to justify his ever-increasing defence budget. This would also have been an excellent opportunity to increase military presence in the Intaki and Mannar systems (i.e. change them to hi-sec security status) and thus his control over the Federation's member states under the pretext of protecting them from the ever-increasing Caldari threat.

Black Rise appearing out of nowhere was an utter wallbanger as well. The notion that the State would, just after the outbreak of war, having in utter secrecy just colonised a region almost everyone else believed was unreachable, suddenly not only reveal to the world that they've done it, but connect it to the territories of their greatest adversary with high-throughput stargates is utterly preposterous.

Heth... just shouldn't exist. At all. He's a singular unifying force that should not exist within an entity such as the State. He ruins the whole idea of the Caldari State for me.

Gigantic asspull superweapon aside, Jamyl Sarum arriving and taking power uncontested was dreadful. It just did not fit with the picture CCP had painted of the Amarr Empire, in which the Great Houses (besides Sarum, of course) would all have their own very specific reasons not to just let her walk in and take what they all saw as rightfully theirs.

The Elder Fleet appearing out of nowhere was atrocious. At the very least it should have been hinted at beforehand. Fundamentally their attack did nothing measureable besides actually starting the Empyrean wars and provide a suitable exclamation mark for the entire problem with Empyrean Age:

The concept itself.

Empyrean Age as its own entity - expansion, novel, fiction - is so shackled to the concept of implementing something - factional warfare - that it in some cases leaves itself unable to avoid making mistakes. Looking back, we had to ask ourselves - what has factional warfare added to the game, and have those additions been positive or negative? In reality, all it's really done is add a (very, very, very, very, very buggy) mechanic that changes a couple of variables in a system if you orbit something for roughly 6 hours and a free wardec. The changes it's made to PF are overwhelmingly negative, and have destroyed many much better routes the story could have taken. I'll elaborate on those later, but I want to keep mainly on topic here.

In essence, yes, TonyG's writing is subpar, but TonyG's writing is only part of the problem. In the grand scheme of things EVE didn't need factional warfare. We know the empires distrust and hate each other. We know they're working to undermine each other's power. We know that they all have agendas and ulterior motives, even for co-operating with their allies. We don't need either ourselves or the story to be shackled to an endless, unwinnable war to know all of this.

The war is three years old this June and it's destroyed friendships, ruined lives, uprooted perfectly good RP corporations and it's not even any more entertaining or meaningful than the Red vs Blue war.

To me, Incursion, despite having better mechanics, is an example of CCP just making the same mistakes over again.

damn, that summed it up perfectly. I may quote you on my blog for that.
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #56 on: 04 Apr 2011, 07:19 »

Casiella quoted me on her blog, but she gave it the title "Andreus Ixiris on TonyG", which I think, with due respect, is missing the point slightly.

TonyG is not the problem, Empyrean Age is the problem.

Sure, his writing wasn't the best but I think we judge him way, way too harshly given that he had to write a story explaining how events that should at the very least have been spread over two or more years occured in the single month before a major expansion came out.
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #57 on: 04 Apr 2011, 07:27 »

Maybe, maybe not. Just because it was sprung upon us suddenly doesn't mean CCP didn't plan it all along.

I don't care if they planned this from the very moment they started selling Hættuspil. The way they executed it was still awful.
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Casiella

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #58 on: 04 Apr 2011, 07:32 »

Actually, I just linked your post on my tumblelog (casiella.tumblr.com, not eclipticrift.com).

That said, I think the worldbuilding is at fault here more than the game design, though I agree with your assessment otherwise.

And that still doesn't excuse the other problems with the writing. As I frequently note, Gonzales never met a breathless superlative he didn't like.
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orange

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Re: TonyG
« Reply #59 on: 04 Apr 2011, 07:37 »

Well said Andreus Ixiris.
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