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[Laerise [PIE]]

This is the sort of thing that we need to see.

But TonyG doing it makes me worried.

On the other hand, it could mean someone replaced the broken lightbulb in his head.

Glad to see that there's some official PF regarding numbers and survival rates somewhere, and that they'll be released to us soon™.

Could we please stop the c hildish TonyG hatred just right now?  

All of you have way too high standards in regards to a novel written for an audience of... I don't know, less than a million people? Of course CCP won't be able to hire John Grisham (who sucks anyways) or even someone of O'Brians level of yarn spinning.

[Seriphyn]

Could we please stop the c hildish TonyG hatred just right now?  

All of you have way too high standards in regards to a novel written for an audience of... I don't know, less than a million people? Of course CCP won't be able to hire John Grisham (who sucks anyways) or even someone of O'Brians level of yarn spinning.

At least TonyG actually has some content. Abraxas just does some vague, conspiratorial chin-wagging, and sometimes bothers to mention Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar (while completely ignoring the bloodlines). He uses EVE as his personal platform to explore his views on existential/philosopical stuff, not deliver actual canon, PF or content. Does Abraxas even know Minmatar is composed of 7 bloodlines, for example?

[Kazuma Ry]

I actually liked Tony Gonzales and Hjalti Danielsson writing style.

I do agree with Laerise, if you don't like someone's writing, then don't read it, and start submitting your own writing to CCP and get it published in a Short story or Chronical

[Casiella]

Big fan of Hjalti here, and I think he's trying to explore the themes reflected in EVE more than the specific lore.

This probably deserves its own thread.

[Aria Jenneth]

Could we please stop the c hildish TonyG hatred just right now?  

NO. Absolutely not.

You badly mistake our (or, at the very least, my) reasons for hating him.

All of you have way too high standards in regards to a novel written for an audience of... I don't know, less than a million people? Of course CCP won't be able to hire John Grisham (who sucks anyways) or even someone of O'Brians level of yarn spinning.

Bad writing is something I can forgive. Bad writers can become good writers with experience and/or education. Few people are born good writers. I do not detest TonyG for being a bad writer (if he even is one, of which I'm not wholly convinced; he's strikes me as the good-ish side of mediocre).

I'm not the world's greatest writer myself. TonyG's novels are undoubtedly better than mine.

No, what I hate about TonyG is what he does to canon. To wit, he skimps on research, or else ignores it entirely, and the result is a pile of inconsistencies that those of us with a taste for worldbuilding, such as myself, can only avoid the hell out of until CCP gets around to clarifying what is REALLY going on!

He has expressed, I am given to understand, active impatience with people who want canon to be coherent. And I, in turn, have no patience for that. This is not just his world he is playing in-- it is all of ours. His understanding of the setting, or lack thereof, has influence and impact far beyond his own scribblings.

And thus far, the result has been canonical chaos.

TonyG is a goddamn liability, and not only am I worried by the fact that he's the one working on this issue, I'm mildly shocked that he's still employed at CCP. CCP has White Wolf at its beck and call. They therefore have access to much better worldbuilders than TonyG, and I would dearly appreciate it if they would use them instead of him.

Perhaps he's gotten better. Perhaps he'll make it all up to us, and I hope to God that's the case. If he does, I'll forgive him quick as a snap.

But my suspicion is that he'll demonstrate once again that he hasn't learned anything about the importance of a coherent roleplaying universe, and that we can look forward to further muddying of the waters.

In general, I'm quicker than many to give CCP the benefit of the doubt. TonyG is a big screaming exception.

[Ulphus]

Could we please stop the c hildish TonyG hatred just right now?  

NO. Absolutely not.

* Ulphus applauds...

I agree with your reasoning, and you said it better than I could have. Over the last year I've been trying to make myself more familiar with the background in the hopes of becoming more consistent with it, and it's actually brought on a malaise which made me feel like the only way to avoid that malaise is to avoid reading anything by TonyG, or pretending it doesn't exist. There's a lower level depression that comes from thinking it will never be possible to build a coherent picture of the Eve universe, so there's no point trying.

Part of that is I think that the lack of concrete information about so much has meant that I've had to fill in the gaps from my imagination in plausible ways, and when CCP then contradicts my plausible imaginings with their own imaginings that seem inconsistent, and less plausible, it just makes me want to tear my hair out.

It also makes me less motivated to bother with getting involved in their universe.

Ohnoez. Am I turning into a bittervet?

[Casiella]

[mod]Split from the Crews thread. Please keep in mind the rules and guidelines when posting in this thread, as expressing your opinions with respect is a requirement in all discussions.[/mod]

[Ken]

it will never be possible to build a coherent picture of the Eve universe, so there's no point trying

While I'd not call myself a fan of TonyG in any way, I am inclined to disagree.

when CCP then contradicts my plausible imaginings with their own imaginings that seem inconsistent, and less plausible, it just makes me want to tear my hair out

I just pretend their contradictions don't count or try to think up plausible imaginings that incorporate PF inconsistencies into my views and thus render them at least consistent enough not to tear my appreciation of the continuity apart.

[Silver Night]

As far as the nuts and bolts writing part - questionable sentence construction, rampant typos, etc. - that is something that better professional editing could help with.

On the level above that, you might say - constructing plots and whatnot - I think that stories can be told with a great deal less contrivance, and I think an important part of being an author is doing your research. I would also suggest that if you are wading into an established setting, it might be a better idea to appear to respect the setting, rather than seemly rearranging it to fit your 'dramatic vision' at a whim. Perhaps he does, and perhaps all the changes he makes are well considered and fit within some overall vision of the setting that he has. I don't know, perhaps if I ever go to Fanfest I could ask.

On a broader level, I think where my idea of what constitutes good Eve fiction diverges from TonyG's is that he seems to write things that are dramatic and large-scale, but not particularly plausible. Things which, at least for me, don't fit the feeling of Eve. I understand that putting one big, noticeable, polarizing face on each faction is easier to market, but I find it far less interesting. Blowing up planets and using superweapons and having a wide variety of secret groups pulling strings may allow for the use of many exciting adjectives, but I feel like it also prevents Eve from feeling like a real place, where real people do things for real, believable reasons.

I don't see Eve as space opera. I see it as a place of high intrigue, political maneuvering and vicious infighting. I see it as a place where there are thousands and millions of competing interests of every scale, and where people don't do stupidly evil things because they are evil, but because they are ambitious, or doing the best they know how, or because they believe it is worth it to further their own interests.

I don't find exploding planets and telepathic empresses interesting. I find corporate maneuvering and palace intrigue and inter-tribal horse-trading interesting. I find stories that don't lean on super-humans and space-illuminati compelling. I like my humans believable, if not always relatable, and my organizations less secret and more subtle.

Anyway. I like me Eve gritty and real-feeling. I'm less worried about bigger, and more worried about people acting in ways that make sense.

[Casiella]

Is TonyG based in Atlanta or Reykjavik? Does anyone here know?

[Hamish Grayson]

My first reaction to Laerise's post was to say something incredibly snotty, because a causal dismissal followed by what is basically a STFU almost doesn't deserve an intelligent response.    

My dislike for TonyG has nothing to do with his writing ability.  It has to do with the fact that he completely retconned the history and nature of the Caldari in his book.    At that time CAIN had nearly 100 hardcore RPers in it and after TEA most of them quit Eve completely and the rest quit RPing.    

You  might notice during the interview with CCP Steve SG after the Fanfest tournaments that Svet didn't say "we are Caldari Role-players" when asked what CAIN has been doing over the last seven years. Her answer was "we PvP."

Here is some stuff from the CAIN forum's right after the release of TEA.

I have a feeling no matter which direction we jump, someone is going to feel that resignation is their only option.

CCP has totally painted us into a corner, with no viable way out where we can keep our identity.

I'd offer we drink the kool-aid.

1)  New players are not going to know the history of how or why the State has completed it's fascist evolution, only that it has.  New Caldari pilots are going to be here because of, not in spite of, this evolution.

2)  Since CCP has decided to go this way, it's sure awkward to be "anti-State, pro-Caldari".  That's been said, done, and done by people like Omerta.  Let's not go down that well-trodden path.

In the end, I don't see us doing ourselves any favors without following the main path.

Hurs, that doesn't address Karl's concern.

If you go with an anti-Heth stance, and Heth essentially becomes the leader of the State, then two months from now, you'll have a tough time convincing new Caldari RPers that you're on the same side. New players won't know what the State was like "before". They'll roll a Caldari and all they'll know is being under Heth.

It could cause recruiting problems.

Concerning some of the choices here.  

If we go with 4 that means that we would operate in Black Rise as an independent anti-heth pro-state group that would target not only Gallente FWers but also Caldari FWers.

Let me make this clear, as Karl has pointed out, we can sugar coat it all we like but if we declare ourselves violently opposed to Heth's government and people and go outside the course of the State to do that - that is the same as the Rabbits, O-SYN, APEX and all that.  Once we start to attack pro-hethdari people, we won't be seen attacking Heth we will be attacking the State.  Once crossed, that isn't a line you say oops, sorry, just kidding.

That would be like PIE attacking Amarrian assets because they didn't like the Emperor that was picked.

You don't have to start killing until things go way drastic.  If we go Caldari Independent Navy Reserve who kills Navy ships we mind as well fold up the corporation because it's such a drastic turn around that what CAIN is and was will be no more.

If I want to be seen as similar to Star Fraction, I'll just go ask Cosmopolite for an invite.  So not really interested in playing the rogue Caldari rebel type.

If I want to be a pirate, there's plenty of opportunity.  SniggWaffe, Veto, Rabbits, etc.  Not really interested in that either.

The situation for us is pretty much bust.  I don't see any rational way out of this, short of saying "Ok, if Heth is the boss, we follow the boss".  Anything else invalidates our previous positions of "Do your duty, don't ask questions".

I find the situation absolutely abysmal in terms of RP rationale, and I'm pretty disgusted that this is the best they could come up with, but I believe I will either become a Provist, or an ex-patriate.  I don't see any way of finessing the RP of the situation and getting away with it.

I don't particularly want to see us reduced to a pretenious  version of Black Rabbits, camping low sec gates night after night.

Well, we did not choose the direction. CCP screwed us, big time, and I am still very angry about it. They also leaving us with very few choices, none of them good. Again, I find the inspiration in the story of 47 ronin, especially Oishi Kuranosuke. I guess history will have to judge us, whether we lived up to a true ideal of a warrior.

There is no way in hell we can rationalize option 4. The legality argument doesn't work. It just plain doesn't. I know it's popular with some people here, but you're never going to get it to fly. We'll be plucking at thin air in the same manner that people cry "human rights"!

I'm with Karl. No matter how disgusting this story is, I find it completely unacceptable to play the rogue Caldari, fighting the machine, just like O-SYN, APEX, etc. Just because we are using "legality" (a broken argument) as our excuse won't make us any different from them.

Abel, I'm afraid "making sense" went out the window with the start of the Heth storyline.  None of the options available to us, with the possible exceptions of remaining in Pure Blind and "Other," offer any kind of consistency.  The question isn't one of choosing a sensible option, it's one of choosing which brand of nonsense we find the least disagreeable.

Option 2 may well be the "most sensible" on its face, but it also means that we're obligated to embrace whatever crazy news item, chronicle, or other piece of PF CCP decides to lob at us next, and a lot of us just aren't comfortable with that.  Some of us are uncomfortable with the general direction they want to take the State, and others are uncomfortable with the manner in which CCP has chosen to pursue that direction.  Why should we insist on consistency ourselves when we can't count on consistency in the game world?

I personally came to CAIN because the Caldari seemed more complex and interesting than the one-dimensional Amarr/Minmatar conflict, or the "rah rah democracy and porn lolz" Federation.  If they're determined to make us into one-dimensional villains, then that holds very little interest to me, and to lots of other people.  So yes, for the sake of keeping the largest possible chunk of us happy, and trying to inject a little variety and freshness into the storyline, I'm prepared to embrace a little nonsense, if there's solid support for it.

I voted Kool-aid. I just cannot see breaking away from Heth's state ending well for us. Loyalist RP is too deeply ingrained in us, the inevitable outcast-status that we'll have in the Caldari RP scene wouldn't sit well with me.

Not that I'm thinking of anyone in particular, but they do have those snazzy uniforms...

Karl, I really wish you wouldn't. I should be the last one to argue against it, but the way CCP portrayed Heth and provists, they are worse than cartoon characters, they make Colonel Klink and Sargeant Schultz look complex and nuanced. Also, to have pro-Heth and anti-Heth factions within 4th will just make things even more messy from the outside and will just tear the CAIN from the inside.  

Besides, SS had snazzy unifroms. Heth and Provists are more like Ernst Rohm and SA. Those brown shirts were UGLY.

I think we need to suck it up and go with option 2.

As an RP lite person, I'm primarily interested in fun times and action. And I don't think the anti-heth line will provide us with a great deal of fun. It'll be good for those who feel preserving internal character consistency is more important than just having a good time, but I personally just want to be able to zoom around and shoot people.

For many of us, preserving internal character consistency is a major part of the fun. If all we want is to zoom around and shoot people, we should have joined Triumvirate long time ago.

Pro-Heth is a non-starter for me, and it pains me to say that, but if we take option 2, I will resign from CAIN. This is not me being a drama-queen, not a desperate plea for attention, just a sad fact of life.

[Seriphyn]

That sounds rough, Hamish, but as an aside, what's the issue with RPing a Heth loyalist? Sure he could be a fascist, but this is EVE, it's own universe, it's own set of morality. Amarrian loyalists support a nation that condones slavery, for example?

I mean, if the majority of Caldari (at the time) supported Heth, then why was it not an option for the in-universe characters of CAIN? OOC sensibilities or...?

[Saede Riordan]

Hamish while that's a tough position to be wedged in, honestly, your characters would be on just as rocky a ship. Sometimes its good to rock the boat. If CCP came and pulled something really odd out of its hat for the angels, I'd roll with it, because it could make things interesting to be forced into that corner.

Also, I think a lot of the issues with did not do the research and TonyG are being retroactively corrected with the fiction bible. Having to go through all the fiction like that and organize it honestly may be in part because of the fallout from TEA. Because it left so many inconsistencies. CCP might have decided they never wanted to do that again and decided to really push for the fiction bible to get taken care of. Hearing about how in sync the content and design people are gives me a lot of hope for the future.

[Graelyn]

That sounds rough, Hamish, but as an aside, what's the issue with RPing a Heth loyalist? Sure he could be a fascist, but this is EVE, it's own universe, it's own set of morality. Amarrian loyalists support a nation that condones slavery, for example?

Amarr supports slavery because that is what we ARE. We have been such for tens of thousands of years.

Heth's rise was the transformation of a complex society into carbon-copies of the nazis in a matter of days.

[orange]

I mean, if the majority of Caldari (at the time) supported Heth, then why was it not an option for the in-universe characters of CAIN? OOC sensibilities or...?

Because Heth's rise to power represents a very Gallente idea to the old school Caldari.  He is a populist. Heth got his position in a way that goes against the very things Heth advocates.

Generally regarded as the most powerful faction, the Patriots are an alliance of Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi, and the mighty Kaalakiota, who between them and their subsidiaries possess capabilities rivaling those of the other two Caldari political factions combined. They are genuinely patriotic and extremely proud.

However, that rather jingoistic pride has been mortally injured by Heth's politically vicious rise. As a result, they generally refuse to admit, even to each other, that many of the things Heth has done are exactly what they themselves have wanted to do all along. While the wounds are still too fresh for them to feel anything but hatred for him, they realize that to defy him openly would harm the State (and their dominant position within it) immeasurably, so for now they play along with him and pretend (as much to themselves as to anyone else) that they're not immensely enjoying giving the Gallente a black eye.

Most people in CAIN, when I left 6 months prior, fell into two camps - Liberal (Ishukone/Hyasyoda) or Patriot (Wirykomi/Lai Dai/KK).  I doubt it changed much.