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[Kaito Haakkainen]

If you take a peek at the thread I linked you'll find I may have spent a little time doing just that over the last few months.

Well then, how far have you gotten in defining the problem?  If we can't do that, how can we come to a consensus? 

There's a problem? I thought we were having fun.

There is no one specific question being asked. For me it's akin to archaeology in RL: you dig around, find evidence, speculate, compare, and try to pull together ideas that don't contradict the known evidence. There are some thing with enough backing them to be almost certain, like the Sleepers being the ancestors of the Jovians, while others are less certain.

A major part of that is having fresh eyes look at the evidence to find ideas, links, and errors. They also help in adding weight to those things which do seem almost certain which eventually snowballs into a consensus. Remembering that even then a consensus can be wrong and at any moment an idea, possibly a foundation of many others, can be proven wrong by some new or overlooked piece of evidence.

[Amann Karris]

Warning: There be links here, Captain!

Something to consider:

How did the Talocan get to W-space?  The most likely theory is that they used the same means of arriving there that Capsuleers do: through wormholes.  But what if that's not exactly the true process?  Taking all of the other theories aside, the simple answers to how the Sleepers are there, why they are there, and when they arrived there have not been truly asked, nor answered.

Mass displacement is mentioned in more than one site, and seems to be a link between Talocan and Sleeper technology.  However, the real crux of the matter is in how Talocan and Sleeper technologies, combined, could create some interesting interactions.  Let's take this simple, Class 1 Sleeper site;

Phase catalyst node:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(matter)#Crystal_phases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis#Significance_of_catalysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_(physics)#Explanation

Let's assume there are certain paths to follow.  These paths would have a common thread, would they not?  Either in nomenclature or in usage.  If you're looking for sleepers, communications would be a good place to start.  Signals.  The above is just an example of understanding nomenclature, analyzing the clues given in-game, and slowly building a theory based on those observations.

For instance, what is a Phase Catalyst Node?

What if we just stayed out there and never returned to another clone?

What if we could live out there, and build a bright and better world in that space between?

/wild speculation

Now, the only real use for a "Phase Catalyst Node" I can think of would be in a really, really large scale particle accelerator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerators#Circular_or_cyclic_accelerators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerators#Black_hole_production_and_public_safety_concerns

Black holes, ambient radiation, and electron volts (eV); oh my!

Now, let's make a further jump in logic; do we have irrefutable evidence that it was Sleepers and Talocan who used the ruins we see in W-space?  What if the sites were simply transported there, and used for other purposes?  As I said, there is interesting implications for scientific study if you combine Talocan and Sleeper technology with the research done on the EVE Gate and what we know of the Terran technology discovered by Jamyl's lackeys.

What does it all mean?  Well, if you are trying to understand superstring theory, and the underlying structure of the universe, what better way than to "shine a light on it"?  Now, look at the information stored in the Sleeper drones; if you were an astrophysicist, and wanting to prove that, oh, I don't know - there was indeed a big bang, that everything in the universe is moving apart, or that Entropy was taking a greater toll on the universe than previously thought - the types of measurements, and the breadth and depth of those measurements, in Sleeper drones would be invaluable.

There's also some interesting possibilities in regards to a certain uncertainty principle, but well... that's not really important.   Let's take the above as a hypothesis; that the Sleeper drones and Talocan structures, combined, are being used as a huge laboratory.  Who would use such a laboratory, and for what purpose? 

Now, back to science and religion; how would a man of faith and a man of science differ in their interpretations of the consequences of knowing the answer to "life, the universe, and everything"?

[Kaito Haakkainen]

How did the Talocan get to W-space?

Occams razor suggests that the garrison sites containing spatial rifts show the Talocan garrisoning spatial rifts which they entered w-space through and were concerned about other following. This is supported by static gates being present at all known Talocan outposts, if they had mastered wormhole technology they wouldn't have required the gates. Additionally the wormholes we have now represent what appears to be thousands of years of isogen-5 gathering.

As to the presence of the Sleepers it would seem they are there to study the Talocan and work on the Jovian Disease. The two possibly being related given the evidence hinting towards Talocan Jovian connections. It is likely they arrived there through discoveries made in k-space, records from the time of that empire, or via the Yan Jungs Threaded Waypoint Map.

Mass displacement is mentioned in more than one site, and seems to be a link between Talocan and Sleeper technology.

It is "Matter-Displacment" and it mentioned one, the 'Strange Energy Readings' Sleeper site. Teleportation is a science the Jovians attempted to recover. Since the Sleepers are almost definitely the second Jovian empire I don't see how they had this technology. The only other known example of functional teleportation is the mention in Theodicy of The Order's 'signature' tech being non-linear teleportation. On the other hand this example may not represent a deliberate matter-displacement or the Jove may have finally mastered teleportation. Notably the Jovians cloaked Terran wrecks around the EVE Gate and it should be asked why the Talocan vessels are gutted and why the rest of us haven't stumbled upon the Yan Jung relics found there by the Minmatar. It should be noted that Anoikis hints the Jovians still have a presence in w-space.

I don't understand where you are drawing the link between the Phase Catalyst Node and particle acceleration from, could you clarify? To me the name suggests a change of phase based on catalysis. Possibly linked to stars, the Thermodynamic Catalysts, isogen-5, and the large number of stellar anomalies in w-space. Not that I feel this is a solid theory either given the lack of corroborating evidence.

What if the sites were simply transported there, and used for other purposes?

Interesting theory but I find no evidence to support it or warrant further study and so many other lines of examination remain open.

Now, look at the information stored in the Sleeper drones;

We have an Ancient Coordinates Database, which is notably not called a Sleeper Coordinates Database, equipment related to advanced interstellar travel, and the Sleeper Data Library. This hints that the Sleepers were looking for, or found, something out there. Possibly as simple as having to hunt down the other ancient sites given the lack of a functional gate-network, possibly as complex as hunting for Terra or incoming Terrans taking the long route to New Eden. As interesting as this all is my personal method is to look through the evidence for connections (and each look reveals something new) rather than speculate and try to make existing evidence fit.

Let's take the above as a hypothesis; that the Sleeper drones and Talocan structures, combined, are being used as a huge laboratory.

I see evidence of the Sleepers studying the Talocan but no evidence of Talocan scientific structures. Not that I'm saying they aren't there, merely that if they are part of the mystery it would be rather cruel for CCP to state that all the pieces are there and then have it hinge on this essential data. I see labs devoted to studies on many topics, from the Archive Terminal to almost every section of the Mirror nothing suggests research on pure theoretical physics, the closest we have are the practical applications found in the Oruze Enclave.

how would a man of faith and a man of science differ in their interpretations of the consequences of knowing the answer to "life, the universe, and everything"?

The Truth Serum and Book of Emptiness suggest that in both cases knowing the answer would be a bad thing, leading to detachment or the philosophical equivalent of a technological singularity. There is a strong theme in Jovian poetry that there is such a thing as too much Truth.

Please don't take these comments as being confrontational. It appears we have vastly differing styles of investigation. Mine is deliberate but, admittedly, very slow. One might even say cautious. Part of me has a strong sense that you or someone who thinks like you will solve this mystery long before those who think like me are able to 'prove' it.

[DrizzCat]

I have seen Referance to Anoikis a Few times - I don't remember reading a Chronical called that.  Can anyone provide a Link to this article, Document, or story.

[Ken]

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=31-05-10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoikis

[DrizzCat]

Wow, a Chron I apperently missed. 

Good read.  Kinda begs the question - What did they know that we havn't sorted out yet?

[Amann Karris]

Good read.  Kinda begs the question - What did they know that we havn't sorted out yet?

Something worth "obfuscating".

Please don't take these comments as being confrontational.

Heh, don't worry about it.

I don't understand where you are drawing the link between the Phase Catalyst Node and particle acceleration from, could you clarify? To me the name suggests a change of phase based on catalysis. Possibly linked to stars, the Thermodynamic Catalysts, isogen-5, and the large number of stellar anomalies in w-space. Not that I feel this is a solid theory either given the lack of corroborating evidence.

Well, where I get the idea of a particle accelerator is very, very complicated to explain.

First, let's look at why a Node would be important.  Instead of going step-by-step, I'll start by linking the relevant articles in relation to Nodes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_(networking)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_topology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_network

Now, if you are working within a network, why would you need a phase catalyst?  Let's look at the following:

We have Magnetic sites, and Radar sites:
Look at the progression.  Jowen's documents on eve-files helped me a LOT here.  Electronic interference.  The Mirror?  Electronic signals.  All in deadspace pockets.

So, what could this mean?  Well, from the Hyperbole Nexus, we know that in New Eden there exists areas that echo in other, distant areas in New Eden.  This was discovered, initially, by the Amarrians.  What if they were not the first to stumble upon this?  We also know that the Sleepers used fluid routers; would they need to use such a site?

They wouldn't, in my opinion, unless the fluid routers are used by the security system alone.  It wouldn't be used for navigation, or would it? 

http://www.ion.org/search/view_abstract.cfm?jp=p&idno=6514
http://www.ion.org/search/view_abstract.cfm?jp=j&idno=826

7.0 Modulation Navigation Network

We do have knowledge of one race that could potentially understand the underlying mechanics and uses of such sites:  The Talocan.  Now, this is where I theorize the link between Sleepers and Talocan begins.

Ancient Acceleration Gates.
Talocan Static Gates.

The Polestars could be one part of the navigation network.  The Static Gates, signal repeaters.  Trinary Hub... a navigation beacon (Trinary Star) used for establishing navigational constants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_system#Triple

Now, I normally wouldn't have touched upon this, aside from something I watched on Star Trek way back when Enterprise was still on; using Pulsar emissions as stellar constants for navigation.   So, why would an Astrophysicist be needed to go into a new, unexplored star system, hmm?  Simple:

"The password, the one she entered. The incorrect string?"

"I will put aside any questions I have about how you would have access to such a thing and ask you to come to the point."

"It's a locus."

Now, positional data in New Eden is (as far as I have determined) partially determined by in-system transmissions from stargates.  As there are no stargates in W-space, the logical choice for determining location would be an Astrophysicist.   The little (subtle) jab is that there are few Astrophysicists that are Capsuleers (heh, all Astrophysicists on the forums hold your hand up, please).

So, why would the Sleeper drones need up-to-date star charts, and memorized star locations?    If they have these, wouldn't it be easy to jump to different star systems?

Particle Accelerators?  Why do you... Oh, good of you to ask!  What do particle accelerators have to do with signals and nodes?  Why are you asking... I brought it up?  Well of course I brought it up!
/Prof. Farnsworth moment

What do you do with energy sent along a communications line when it reaches the end of the line?  If you want to conserve energy, you store it; but how do you store energy like that?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/11014084t5511385/

Now, if Jamyl's weapon had an effect on the EVE Gate, and an explosion of the same material used to fuel said weapon caused wormholes...

...could it not be conjectured that the source of the energy used in Jamyl's weapon could be stored somewhere?  Could that storage area be the EVE Gate itself?

1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies

So, going on the "particle accelerator" theorem, what does an Acceleration Gate do?  By it's very nature it breaks some fundamental laws of physics that normally hold for accelerated objects by accelerating a craft past the speed of light.  It also does so by accelerating a ship into a deadspace pocket.

If you want to establish navigational constants in real-time across interstellar distances, how do you do it?  What if your fluid routers are unreliable for such calculations?

Why, I've asked myself that exact same question countless times.  Uh do what?  I just answered that question?  Don't be a fool, man, I just thought of that question right now!
/Farnsworth

On to Particle Accelerators though.

Static Gates, Acceleration Gates, Hypereuclidean Manifolds... It all creates a sort of strange loop.  It's possible to understand the whole, and argue the ends, without fully understanding the means; however, in this particular case, looking at each level of the "problem" brings up more questions.  With the "clues" being spread out across New Eden, it tells a wider story.  You can answer the questions, but they are not all related to Sleepers.  they aren't all related to Talocan.  They relate to both in an odd way, but not necessarily.

1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies

I mean, it's all there.  Now, what about the Sleepers?

"As an example of why the reductionist approach fails, consider the function of one cell within a multicellular organism. Even if we understand the cell's function, that does not mean we fully understand the organism's physiology. After all, the activity of each cell is affected by the activity of other cells in the tissues, organs, and organ systems within the organism. The cell is thus no longer in isolation, and its integration into a system provides that system with emergent properties (Novikoff, 1945)."

Taken singularly, the sites in Sleeper space do not show any particular emergent behavior.  Add in other elements -Sleeper ships, turrets, environment- emergent properties appear.  A story unfolds, a story that other pieces of the puzzle can further explain.

TL;DR: Sleeper sites, Talocan sites, and W-space in general were (in my opinion) designed with a Top-down, bottom-up construction in mind; why not approach the problem from that perspective?  It's a lot easier and does not require outside information (aside from determining nomenclature).

Now, what is this about Particle Accelerators?  This idea intrigues me.
/Unrelated

 

[Mathra Hiede]

:EDIT:

I am slow and tired, Lectures are mind numbing..

[Amann Karris]

:EDIT:

I am slow and tired, Lectures are mind numbing..

Don't worry:

It may not make sense at first.

[Kenpachi]

Don't worry:

It may not make sense at first.

I enjoy reading about your ideas/theories/thoughts on the W-space, Sleepers, and the Talocon;
But when you do this, it makes my head hurt even more then your wall-of-text.
 

[Graelyn]

I'm pretty much waiting for a summary myself. 

[Amann Karris]

In short:

Archive Enclave: Directory
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies

Who would have the information to make use of this?  It wouldn't be a single person.  It would be a group of people.  A group of people with a common interest in keeping things secret.  People that were intelligent, well educated, and experienced in keeping secrets.

Like, say, graduates of a certain type of school.

Keep in mind that Labron and his kind probably aren't the kind to gloat, either, meaning he could just as easily lament the "only rational conclusion." He is a teacher too, of wildly successful people, right? The sorts you see leading research projects and running around the Senate, one might imagine...

Maybe that is a thought Labron imparts to his students, before they head out into the world and go about their success and profit. A lesson about why some illusions need to be maintained. I leave you with that thought.

..and this vague suggestion: If the idea of the wildly successful graduate piqued your interest, consider why someone is concerned that someone else was chosen for a task, and what that means.

So, going back to something said a long, long time ago by our dear Dropbear:  It would either take a genius, or the collected effort of a group of players in order to solve the "mystery", a mystery "as old as EVE itself".

Archive Enclave: Directory
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies

The answer is kind of uh...

...in plain sight.

 

Now, if you know the answer, what is the question? 

[Kaito Haakkainen]

The answer is kind of uh...

...in plain sight.

It is? Perhaps my patience is low due to the huge amount of effort I've put into decrypting CCPs puzzles lately but I really would rather have a simple, direct, answer. Preferably one that doesn't require me to spend hours wading through links. Links are good to support statements as truth if their validity is likely to be questioned but it's very beneficial to the reader if the author makes the actual statement and then gives a citation.

Your (obvious now it's been pointed out to me /teh dumb) idea that the Talocan Polestar is related to navigation is potentially useful but, without trawling through all of your linked data, that was the only useful, evidence based, idea I managed to get from all this.

[Graelyn]

I gave my theory on the entire Jove/Capsuleer arc in a couple of sentences.

I understand that these other ideas may not be as simple, but I wish they could be condensed somewhat. Reading for 20 minutes about something that may be a worthless theory would be tiring, and I preemptively avoid it nowadays (*bittervet*).

[Amann Karris]

It is? Perhaps my patience is low due to the huge amount of effort I've put into decrypting CCPs puzzles lately but I really would rather have a simple, direct, answer. Preferably one that doesn't require me to spend hours wading through links. Links are good to support statements as truth if their validity is likely to be questioned but it's very beneficial to the reader if the author makes the actual statement and then gives a citation.

Point taken.

Your (obvious now it's been pointed out to me /teh dumb) idea that the Talocan Polestar is related to navigation is potentially useful but, without trawling through all of your linked data, that was the only useful, evidence based, idea I managed to get from all this.

1.

Polestars for navigation, Sleeper drones for coordination/surveillance/security.  Deadspace pockets are created by neutrino...

...naw, that one's too scientific.  I'd hate to have to do another lecture that no one would read.    It would explain the "particle accelerator" theory, but I don't think anyone cares.

EDIT: As well as Jamyl's Superweapon, but yeah... not the right time. 


2.

"Extremely successful students".  Students of what?  SoCT schools.  Like Dagan, from The Blood-Stained Stars.  He was a tutor, with access to sensitive information.

From there, we have the real implication of what is in The Mirror; archived information on the EVE Gate, Terran Artifacts, Talocan Technology... everything that one would need to take full advantage of Sleeper and Talocan sites in W-space.


3.

This leads to why "someone" would be concerned with another "someone" being chosen for a task.  Now, if we make the jump in logic that the SoCT is the "someone concerned", and someone who has links to the Sisters of EVE as the "chosen one", things start to make clearer sense.  There are possible considerations beyond this, but they aren't important to the main idea I'm trying to express.

Now, we have the implication at the end of TEA that the EVE Gate is "not what people think it is".  At one point it was a wormhole; it is no longer "open", yet energy still courses through it.  Energy that, in one chronicle, is linked to Jamyl's Superweapon, via the strange substance that fueled it; Isogen-5.

4.

This is where we get the odd conundrum.  Information on the weapon led to the discovery of Isogen-5 caches.  It was the Sisters of EVE that made the discovery, but it was the SoCT that knew how to control the keepers of the cache; the Rogue Drones.

Here's where things get fishy; how did the SoCT know how to reset the drones, unless they had a hand in creating them?    As others have pointed out countless times, it was multiple corporations doing different research that let the "demon out of the box".  Now, if this is true, how could the SoCT do this, unless they had a hand in it?

"Students that would be in charge of research projects"

5.

As "Hellgremlin" (I think?) said somewhere, the Oruze Construct looks a lot like a certain design by the SoCT.  They know how to affect drones.  Someone knew that there would need to be a quarantine on technology brought back, and someone knew how to integrate said technology into New Eden ships.  It would have to be someone who knew a lot about engineering, a lot about fullerenes, and a lot about Sleeper systems and New Eden systems in general.

Now, it is not likely that this someone is a single individual.  It is most likely a collection of individuals.  Individuals with common backgrounds, yet diverse skills.  Individuals trained to recognize particular situations and be able to act according to certain protocols.

The only logical conclusion would be students of the SoCT.  More accurately, individuals well placed within corporations and governments that could easily be manipulated by the right people at the right place at the right time.  I'm not talking about a conspiracy per se; simply individuals who are talented, intelligent, and have influence in their chosen profession, and are conditioned to do what is in the best interest of all.

So, what could they be conditioned to hide?  What could they be conditioned to train individuals to cover up?  What is the "only rational conclusion"?

Well now, we get back to the heart of the matter: Descartes.  The only rational conclusion, if there is no great "deceiver", is that we are the ones who are imprisoning ourselves.  Metaphorically, literally, figuratively... existentially.

 

Finally, is this all misdirection?  Possibly.  It may not be an organized conspiracy, it could just be an emergent pattern.  Enough people knowing just enough to try and keep chaos from engulfing humanity once again, and taking whatever means necessary to make certain they don't fail.

Not if we intervene and provide for them what convincingly appears to be the most promising final applications of any potential studies. This hints at precisely the point we must illuminate. When framed as a concern for the balance of power between the empires and the capsuleers, our interests will appear far more congruent with theirs, and our actions will remain understandable. The empires can be made to quickly appreciate how little control over these new areas they will have, and from there, it will be simple to assist each of them in coordinating access to components we identify as key. They will recognize it as the only opportunity any of them have for strategic equality. None will refuse.

In Summary:

The EVE Gate is important.  What is in W-space is important.  Sleepers and Talocan structures are part of a single puzzle.  The puzzle is linked to the EVE Gate.  The EVE Gate is not what it seems to be.  The SoCT and the Sisters of EVE know the big secret; we are the "great deceivers".  We are our greatest enemy.  If this is true, how do they know this?

Archive Enclave: Directory
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies

It's all there, man!  I could go into potential Jove connections, Enheduanni, and the meaning of Virtual Kinetics... but in the end, it all comes down to what mystery you're talking about, and whether or not there really is a consistent vision as to what is going on in EVE's storyline.

Final Note:
SSoE and SCT = bickering siblings.

P.S.: Questions, comments, revelations?