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[Ghost Hunter]

Raise your hand if you remember the old "Reach 100 million SP and become a Jovian" thing CCP touted at the launch of EVE.

[Amann Karris]

Raise your hand if you remember the old "Reach 100 million SP and become a Jovian" thing CCP touted at the launch of EVE.

[Graelyn]

Yes, that is a part of my theory, but only in hindsight.

The idea came first, and afterward the realization that it fit all the holes, including that one.

[lallara zhuul]

With increased awareness of the present, more peaceful existance is achieved.

If awareness is increased thousandfold, millionfold, would we perceive such existance to be anything else than sleep?

[Amann Karris]

I hate you all.

<3

[hellgremlin]

With increased awareness of the present, more peaceful existance is achieved.

If awareness is increased thousandfold, millionfold, would we perceive such existance to be anything else than sleep?

In what universe? The more I learn about our world, the less sleep I get :p

[Myyona]

The most fascinating thing for me?  I wonder if there's a link between "Ametat and Avetat", Udorians, the Jove and the Takmahl.  Cybernetics, bio-engineering, worshiping other Gods... ::cough::Taloc::cough::

Great posts, Amann, they have made me thinking. While I do not like the need draw on real world knowledge to solve the puzzle, as no character in EVE can be expected to possess such knowledge, I am now quite convinced you are on to something right when you speak about the Talocan being involved in sacrifice of people. Not just based on the the lines you draw but also on ingame sources.

First of all there is the description of two Talocan structures found in w-space; the Talocan Exchange Depot and the Talocan Extraction Silo.

Amidst the ruins of this Talocan outpost, the exchange depot looms, its presence foreboding. Judging from the wreckage inside, the depot was either used for imprisonment or cultural exchange; eerily, there seems to be very little difference between the two. Whatever its purpose, this structure is rather prevalent among the outposts, displaying its importance in Talocan society.

This towering structure contains all the basic elements of a regular silo: cavernous storage areas, thick walls, extensive ventilation, etc. Based on the scans of this silo, however, the silo’s previous contents are unknown. The residue from inside reveals nothing known in modern times, or even odd genetic combinations. Whatever its contents, the silo emits an unfamiliar – and uneasy – presence.

But  not only this; when the wormholes first opened up, the entity in New Eden most prone to sacrificing humans, the Blood Raiders, claimed to have seen their "Red God" in there (I cannot seem to find the news source for this... strange). Another bit of clue, while poor in source, was the mention of Equilibrium of Mankind to have been the original entity behind Incursions. They too have a habit of sacrificing humans.

Now to some more speculative thoughts; If there is some kind of god/technology hidden in w-space that is driven by sacrificing humans one could think the Talocans would set up a way to be supplied with such. Like slaves... Why not encourage a less technological advanced civilization to do the dirty work of rounding up the people and then collect the harvest later?* I already touched on that subject here. And it is still my strong belief the Talocan and the Enheduanni are one and the same. Just take the strong similarity in design between Talocan and Amarr structures, the first thing that struck me when seeing them in w-space.

This put questions to the Takmahls role in this. Likely, the Takmahl were a splinter group of the Talocan. Perhaps the group left behind to supervise the collection of slaves, but something went wrong and the Amarr exterminated them. Or perhaps there was a disagreement. Still, the Blood Raiders seems to be on the path of the Talocan and they have some positive connection with the Takmahl.

And on the topic of rounding up people; is that not Mr. Kuvakei has been doing recently? Will think about that later.

A big open question is why the Talocans were sacrificing people; simple religious beliefs or for science purpose? (it is science-fiction after all).

I am not speculating on Sleepers or on the apparent disease that killed off life in w-space at this stage. I have to focus to get anywhere.

*: I cannot remember/find any source that talks about the Amarr shipping of slaves to satisfy their god. But it is possible that slaves were slowly picked here and there with little to no notice or the Sani Sabik took care of it.

[Kaito Haakkainen]

Perhaps take a glance into the similarities between Tlaloc and Enki and contemplate that even now the Jovians are not a united group.

[Amann Karris]

Interesting theory, and I actually had looked at those connections before.  Then again, I absorbed everything I could regarding Enheduana, Inanna, Gilgamesh, the whole flood myth etc. when I was in high school.  That's why when I first saw EVE, and the Amarr, I fell in love with the setting.  It was a kind of odd anachronistic mix of modern social commentary and ancient myth on some weird psychedelic Sci-Fi acid trip that just blew my mind.

Now, I doubt the guys who originally came up with the EVE backstory had much in the way of formal literary training of any kind.  As I told a friend a few years ago, it's like a computer programmer who played a bit of DnD, a couple elective mythology classes and some political science on the way to realizing his true calling decided to make a new and improved version of Battletech.  Not a bad thing, but if you stick to that formula someone's going to connect the dots.  Not to mention the fact that much of EVE seems to have been written with a copy of Orson Scott Card's "Guide to Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy" at their computer (and misinterpreted some of the examples as "This is how you do it" instead of "This is how not to do it", but I digress).

So, what does this have to do with the Sleeper mystery?

Simple; forget the names.  Forget the symbols.  Forget the similarities and correlations.  They're honestly meaningless in the end, because they don't answer any of the questions.  What does the evidence say?

For me, the story is simple, at least in relation to the Sleepers.  The Sleepers were smart.  Very smart.  If they were indeed a download society, then they would be very smart.  They would want to preserve themselves, their society, their way of life.  But as a download society, how do they do that?  Regardless of whether or not they were a download society, the next point is unchanged; they had the means, motive, and opportunity to set up the following:

A database, with multiple redundancies.  A mirror.  Not just one mirror, but a network of mirrors.  Designed to slowly dismantle their outlying infrastructure, and transfer it deeper and deeper towards the mirrors.  They are going to conserve energy.  They are, above all, going to want to keep what systems they can activated, with one purpose; continuing to solve whatever problem forced them into their current state, and to defend their legacy.

Now, the funny thing?  The Rogue Drones; they operate on similar (though admittedly only at face value) concepts.  Is this coincidence, a convergence in the evolutionary process they are following, or is it that they are based on similar technological principles?

That's the story of the Sleepers.  Everything else should be noted; everything.  The similarities, the crazy theories, absolutely everything.

Why?

Because, silly, this is a journey.  Go into sleeper space, walk the path, and find out an old mystery.  Find new ones.  Explore and evolve.

Now, what I really want to know is this; did they save their "best and brightest"?  Is there a user's manual?  Are the Jove really connected, or are they as clueless as everyone else?

For that matter, what happened to the "Ten Year Plan" that the Devs touted so long ago, and how much more time do they have in that plan? 

Going back to Orson Scott Card, he also says something in the above mentioned book: some writers wrongly believe that withholding information is the best way to build up tension (tension being the thing you can't get have enough of in a story), but that the key is to only keep one piece of information back: what is going to happen next.  Everything else, and I mean everything put out there, must be relevant to the plot or affect the story in some meaningful way.  This is why some of the recent "revelations" of the behind-the-scenes happenings in the storyline department at CCP worry me, but at the same time it gives me hope that things are going to progress in a more fluid and dynamic way in the future (though I won't be around to reap the benefits of this as an EVE player).

So, you tell me; in regards to the Sleepers is there too much innuendo and too little information?  Is too much being held back of the story?  Or is just enough being withheld to keep everyone from guessing the next beat?

Oh, and one more note:

Nietzsche and Kierkegaard: mentioned by Dropbear.  Kierkegaard had some interesting ideas on truth, and faith.  How does this compare and contrast with Nietzsche and Descartes?  What are the implications of these insights on the writings of Ior Labron?

There will (not) be a quiz later. 

Also, to CCP Dropbear: if you're reading this...

Hahaha, I get the joke now!  Intentional or not, quite hilarious. 

[Kaito Haakkainen]

The solid evidence from the Mirror and other sources suggest the Sleepers developed pod-like technology which is just about the only evidence I've found of them being an upload society. Further a faction making an organized transfer from organic to infomorphs that doesn't welcome vistors wouldn't leave the lights on and the life-support running.  The Sleeper network itself seems far more focused on developing an emergent AI capable of working out a solution to the Jovian Disease using Talocan DNA.

While I do strongly 'feel' that they became infomorphs and left it all behind there isn't much evidence to support it. There is enough to suggest that they didn't actually stay in w-space either way. The drones operate independently, the facilities are falling apart, the network itself is starting to degrade, and then there's the evacuation centres.

It is possible that the sleepers suffered the same fate as the second Jovian empire over in Heaven merely sooner (at least according to the mess that is CCPs dates, it may well be the same time). That they evacuated due to the disease, leaving those showing signs of the disease in stasis. The medical enclave supports the idea of the infected being placed in stasis. Perhaps, being the "humane" creatures the Jove appear to have become after the fall of the first empire (possibly caused by immense guilt and the secret they, the sleepers, and their drones are keeping, but that's another story) they left the diseases victims with a VR playground. Perhaps, since "No one said the Jove were nice" they wire wired into the system designed to find a cure. Either way we might then have a large population of people, most of whom are inflicted with the disease, wired up in pod-like interfaces.

That they didn't stay put seems further reinforced by the presence met by Liandra at the Mirror. This entities emotionless response, lifeless appearance, message, and lack of original representation suggests an encounter with an AI rather than an infomorph. Perhaps those left behind got what they wanted from the network and left. Perhaps this wasn't so much a cure as it was a mutation, or rather virtual mutation, which leads on to speculation regarding the Enheduanni or full on ascension but again this is heading off-course.

Suffice to say if the sleepers became infomorphs I find no evidence to suggest that they remained in w-space. I do however see vast connections to the Jovians beyond the contents of w-space itself from the mission Mysterious Sightings stating that some say the Sleepers are the ancestors of the Jovians to the huge number of technologies they have in common and more.

[Sources available on request, more rambling found here.

[Amann Karris]

The only universal message in science fiction: There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently.

 

[Kaito Haakkainen]

The only universal message in science fiction: There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently.

 

Could you be more precise with your meaning? We're all dealing with enough cryptic guessing already. 

[Amann Karris]

Well, as they say, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  Could a user of sufficiently advanced technology be indistinguishable from a god?

I mean, we can focus on the fact that the symbol for Inanna/Ishtar (the Goddess to whom Enheduanna wrote all those poems), is an eight pointed star; or the fact that she wrote about a personal relationship with her deity....

Or we could look at the Sleeper ruins and see a certain pattern.  This pattern could lead us to a chain of events, or multiple interpretations of these events.  It would however, point us in some interesting directions.  Like, for instance, Enclave Cohort 27.  Why is 27 important?  Is this information self-referential? 

If you're looking at the "Sleeper Mystery", perhaps it is best to start there; to identify the dilemma, and work backwards from there.  What's the best way to do that?  Look at the patterns that exist, and look at anything that does not fit that pattern.  There's more than Cohort 27 that do not fit the pattern.

Like Oruze Osobnyk.

 

I guess it depends on if you're a man of faith, or a man of science.

[Kaito Haakkainen]

If you take a peek at the thread I linked you'll find I may have spent a little time doing just that over the last few months.

[Amann Karris]

If you take a peek at the thread I linked you'll find I may have spent a little time doing just that over the last few months.

Well then, how far have you gotten in defining the problem?  If we can't do that, how can we come to a consensus?