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[Saxon Hawke]

Re-reading the article and response with the explanation provided by Hamish I can see what you were going for. Unfortunately, without that background, it looks like so many of the dismissive "prove it" responses that we see from those who refuse to "play along" with player invented role playing devices.

[Merdaneth]

The first group waits patiently for CCP to dole out any crumb of information, which they collect and debate at length trying to make some a tapestry from the tiniest scraps.

The second group takes those same scraps and supplies the remainder of the fabric from their own imagination.

This completely.

I always have run-ins with the first group (I'm with the second obviously). I see no problem at all with the IGS posts, and I think neither would anyone who looked at it purely from an IC standpoint would have any problem with it too.

[Hamish Grayson]

The first group waits patiently for CCP to dole out any crumb of information, which they collect and debate at length trying to make some a tapestry from the tiniest scraps.

The second group takes those same scraps and supplies the remainder of the fabric from their own imagination.

This completely.

I always have run-ins with the first group (I'm with the second obviously). I see no problem at all with the IGS posts, and I think neither would anyone who looked at it purely from an IC standpoint would have any problem with it too.

While this does happen, its not the case here.

[Isobel Mitar]

The first group waits patiently for CCP to dole out any crumb of information, which they collect and debate at length trying to make some a tapestry from the tiniest scraps.

The second group takes those same scraps and supplies the remainder of the fabric from their own imagination.

I would describe this as more of a continuum, where the two groups are at the opposite ends. In the middle are a lot of players who are comfortable making up certain kinds of stuff, but not other kinds of stuff. As an example, I would guess many players would be comfortable inventing a city their character used to live in, for example, even if they felt inventing population statistics for Gallente Prime was out of the line.

And I agree that if people come from RP cultures very far apart on the continuum, playing together in a shared world can be challenging. The other group may seem like "no fun nitpickers" and the other one "no fun godmoders".

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Hamish's take on things very much fits with my suspicions, I say that meaning I absolutely support the articles.  Subtle, well-executed, and provides that burning ember of tension begging for resolve (which is where we humans screw it up, fighting over how to resolve it).

His refutation was certainly quite in line with what would be expected of his character and keeps the conflict moving.  I'm far more guilty of crossing the line in an objectionable manner recently :9.

[Julianus Soter]

I don't want to derail the thread by responding to Hamish's commentary, which I've stated before as being totally non-sensical from a prime fiction perspective.

Rodj Blake is right, specifically in connection with NPC corporations. There's a threshold of 'imagination' we can apply in the public sphere regarding non-player controlled entities. The main debate raging in the roleplaying 'community' is whether it exists at all, and if it does, where it lies.

[Senn Typhos]

Also, I am not sure you understand what ad hominem means. 

You know what, this is actually a much better way of saying what I wanted to say.

[Seriphyn]

Hamish, nobody likes a "ur doin it wrong", but...well...(and these are links, silly blank theme)

Complicating matters, there have been several violent incidents between the Caldari Navy forces garrisoning the system and Gallentean or neutral industrial ships transiting the area

The rapid Caldari military advance into Gallente space has spread Caldari Navy forces thin, forcing the Navy to outsource patrol duties in less critical systems to the megacorporate security forces

"unless directed as part of strategic Caldari naval operations in the vicinity."

Caldari Navy forces in the occupied territories have been at an elevated state of alert since Tuesday's elections.

Inversely, with regards to the Federation Navy...

Plexing STPRO pilots shoot up Federation Navy

Objective is as follows: To secure space occupancy and clear the way for Federation Navy search and capture teams to locate stolen military equipment.



All FW NPCs carry factional navy tags. They are a "holding force". The capsuleer militia goes in, takes a system, and the faction navy comes in to hold it.

No amount of saying this is incorrect will change this. If it bothers you that much, then can you please just leave related RP threads alone?

[orange]

I don't want to derail the thread by responding to Hamish's commentary, which I've stated before as being totally non-sensical from a prime fiction perspective.

Complicating matters, there have been several violent incidents between the Caldari Navy forces garrisoning the system and Gallentean or neutral industrial ships transiting the area

The rapid Caldari military advance into Gallente space has spread Caldari Navy forces thin, forcing the Navy to outsource patrol duties in less critical systems to the megacorporate security forces

"unless directed as part of strategic Caldari naval operations in the vicinity."

Caldari Navy forces in the occupied territories have been at an elevated state of alert since Tuesday's elections.

...

All FW NPCs carry factional navy tags. They are a "holding force". The capsuleer militia goes in, takes a system, and the faction navy comes in to hold it.

It appears that that both of you require CCP approved potentially bias news articles to establish the structure of the Caldari Military.  The idea that the bulk of forces involved in garrisoning occupied territory, let alone the bulk of Caldari military forces are megacorporate security forces does seem to agree with your world view.

Different interpretations of the referenced phrases above in combination with chronicles and corp descriptions support the idea that the State's military is far from centralized and any vast undertaking requires the involvement of the megacorporate security forces, auxiliary mercenary forces, all coordinated with the help of the smallish Caldari Navy.

No amount of saying this is incorrect will change this. If it bothers you that much, then can you please just leave related RP threads alone?

Except that it is not incorrect; it is different interpretations of the information presented.

When we (Caldari roleplayers) read Scope generated news and then respond to it In Character, it is read as if it can only portray the Caldari in a bad light since the Scope is not Echelon or NoH.  This lets us write off what we view as inconsistencies in reporting and attribute things we don't like to lack of knowledge concerning how the State functions (because it functions just like the Federation doesn't it?).

The simple fact of the matter is there are two groups of roleplayers in Eve and they can't really play together.

But they will happily shoot at each other.

[Seriphyn]

The NPC ships carry Caldari Navy tags.

While I can understand the whole "militia act designed to prevent direct confrontation", this did not stop the State from auctioning off development rights to the territories, landing troops on the planets, installing new regimes, enforcing a communications blockade etc.

This is war, it's not a case of trying to demonize the State, or the big bad Federation. Federation Navy ships occupy Nisuwa right now, for example. And according to the Caldari epic arc, the Federation Navy maintains a forward presence in Black Rise, detention centers with raped women etc etc.

It's direct conflict that doesn't happen, and that CONCORD doesn't allow. The militias clean out an area of enemy navy presence, and their navy moves in. Take "To Live in Peace" which infers that the Federation and Caldari have continued to be fighting each other even when the first war passed.

[Merdaneth]

Seriphyn,

You are doing it wrong. First, you are using OOC knowledge to establish an objective reality to which all characters are supposed to adhere.

1. I disagree with you using OOC knowledge to make a judgement about an IC position
2. I disagree that this OOC knowledge is neccessarily in conflict with the position taken
3. I disagree that the OOC knowledge provided by CCP should be considered in any form or shape 'unquestionable objective reality'
4. I disagree with your interpretation that everyone should agree on an 'objective reality' and imagine things from that point on

It's not believable because *to you* because the post is too much a mismatch for *your vision* of EVE.

I don't know the official CCP stance on either the Caldari or Federation military, and my character will believe it if it sounds sensible. My character won't believe it if it doesn't sound sensible and the only proof is an OOC CCP thing. When confronted with two news articles, one written by a CCP paid employee, and one written by a fellow player, I won't be judging the former more truthful than the latter for OOC reasons.

[Invelious]

Seriphyn,

You are doing it wrong. First, you are using OOC knowledge to establish an objective reality to which all characters are supposed to adhere.

1. I disagree with you using OOC knowledge to make a judgement about an IC position
2. I disagree that this OOC knowledge is neccessarily in conflict with the position taken
3. I disagree that the OOC knowledge provided by CCP should be considered in any form or shape 'unquestionable objective reality'
4. I disagree with your interpretation that everyone should agree on an 'objective reality' and imagine things from that point on

It's not believable because *to you* because the post is too much a mismatch for *your vision* of EVE.

I don't know the official CCP stance on either the Caldari or Federation military, and my character will believe it if it sounds sensible. My character won't believe it if it doesn't sound sensible and the only proof is an OOC CCP thing. When confronted with two news articles, one written by a CCP paid employee, and one written by a fellow player, I won't be judging the former more truthful than the latter for OOC reasons.

I fully support this statement.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Thread locked. The premise of the thread seems to be that someone is 'doing it wrong'. As per the rules of the board, that's not an appropriate position to open a thread with. It doesn't matter if you think they're doing it really, really wrong or not - it's still a violation of the rules. It's fine to debate different IC positions, but it's not fine to insist that your way is the only right way. Chances are if there is any way that is so strongly supported by the evidence, people will support it without you telling them they have to do it your way. Those who have repeatedly been moderated for similar offenses (you probably know who you are) should know that further offenses are very likely to result in formal warnings.[/mod]