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[Saede Riordan]

When I see Kuhmbelaa, I can't help but think Chumpawumba

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

This is pretty much the meat of my prior disagreement with Saxon.  Luckily, Simon is from a minority group and he's been interpreting the ILF's continued pushing of 'the' Intaki culture as part of a broader agenda of theirs that he generally opposes.  And, since that phrase was IC, it feeds Simon's viewpoint perfectly, so I have nothing to complain about

Well, yes.

My current IC interpretation of the ILF is that they are pompous asses trying to push their culture as THE Intaki culture because it would suit their political agenda to have a unified culture like that. This is because I know too many Intaki IC who do not share that idea of the Intaki culture, or if they have even heard about it, think it is a minority, so what else am I to think? This poses me no RP problems whatsoever, and the "as most of you know" would have made me just roll my eyes IC, had I actually happened to read it.

The problem is I do not think the players who invent the Intaki cultural stuff actually want this; they would prefer me to interact with them about it rather than dismiss it, and to be honest, I'd sometimes like that better too. It's just these choices of words both IC and OOC that define this as "the" Intaki culture make it difficult - I think Isobel said it well in another thread: this sort of stuff (defining cultural norms for a whole race) should be opt-in,  not opt-out.

[Benjamin Shepherd]

Why is this being overanalyzed? It's a fictitious holiday created to expand the culture and have fun with RP. The wording choices are completely irrelevant. Not to mention it's been almost two weeks since this even commenced.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

If you have a different vision of a culture than what someone spent time and effort putting together, offer your own ideas.  You can't respond to the general question "what are you for" with "not that".  There's no discussion to have at that point, no room for growth, compromise, or collaboration.

Beyond that, it seems like people want to focus more on half of a sentence that really had nothing to do with the event/idea itself at all and just want to twist words into a way to attack the creators as somehow OOCly "forcing" these ideas onto others when, in fact, you were all free to take it or leave it as you pleased.  Acting like the words "as most of you know" somehow robs you of the ability to do that is absurd.  On the one hand you justify your characters not knowing as a result of their anecdotal experiences, yet somehow can't apply the same reasoning that perhaps Mammal's anecdotal experience is that most people he knows do, instead insisting this somehow lends credibility to a narrative of overbearing forcefulness on the part of an entire interest group.

Finally, don't come on here and OOCly state your characters had some kind of problem with this when they never said so IC (or even made supportive IC statements).  Don't hide behind imaginary people who you puppeteer.  If you have a problem with it, say so...plainly.  If your character has a problem with it, have them state so in an RP venue.  But don't do this "my character was offended" crap.  "My IC interpretation" is a direct contradiction.  Are the lines between IC and OOC getting a little too fuzzy for some people?  Is this just a new way of obfuscating the "you're doing it wrong" thing?

You cannot have an IC opinion!  If the meaning you intended was a bit more nuanced and was meant as "my character's IC interpretation", then I guess that just reveals how easy it is to slip into a speech pattern that didn't convey your meaning properly and you might consider cutting Mammal some slack.

What's so wrong with thinking to yourself "hmm, not my cup of tea" and moving on?

Responses to hard work and creative energies like this entirely turn me off to the prospect of sitting down and really fleshing out some ideas I have.  There have been 2 or 3 occasions I've been the first paragraph or two into something and I stop because it just feels like a thankless waste of time.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

(With "my IC interpretation" above I mean "Elsebeth's interpretation". I only play the one character in EVE, so the shorthand actually works pretty well. Sorry to be unclear.)

I am sorry if you guys feel I was offensive or am doing it wrong, somehow. I don't mind you playing it the way you do - coming up with "The Culture" and posting about it. What you are inventing is good stuff. If I am not discussing the feast or event itself is because I have zero problems with it and think it is cool. This thread should probably be split into two - comments on this particular event in itself, and one about general discussion about presenting things you invent as the cultural norms most [insert race here] know about / follow.

So, on the latter, Syylara/Yaansu, I think you miss my point a bit. My point is not that I would want to offer "an alternative" and push my version as the culture. I actually rather like what people are doing with the Intaki stuff, and not playing an Intaki character there's very little chance that it will become problematic for my RP even if I didn't. What I want is a way to share these things that leaves room for everyone's ideas to co-exist in the same universe without us having to even go to treating them as "alternatives", to decide to "take it or leave it", and to "compete" with ideas.

My point is that I think things work better when people who invent cultural stuff carefully make theirs to be "a" Sebiestor (or whatever) culture rather than "the" Sebiestor (or whatever) majority culture. Explanation attempt for why I think so follows. If you think it is overanalysis and not your cup of tea, just skip it and continue playing the way you have so far.

In cases where someone presents something as "the Sebiestor way", the problem with thinking "not my cup of tea" is that my character, who is a fairly traditionally-minded Sebiestor, turns away from something that is (presented as) "the traditional thing" for her - so why does she do this? I prefer to not just OOCly ignore it, because other players will decide to play along, and I will with some likelihood play with them in the future, and this might come up. So I need to decide if ICly, I think the OP is mistaken about the customs and I am actually right, or if I belong to a minority of Sebs that do things differently, etc. Whatever I choose has implications for further RP - even if I am not OOCly interested in the thing itself at all. It leads to RP, which is good. But it leads to RP I did not "opt in" for, but that was chosen for me by another player's vision.

And say the more likely thing happens - say this idea actually is my cup of thea, say I find the idea fun, but it does not (bummer!) fit into my pre-existing background story about how my Sebiestor character's customs and ways. I might go "Oh, that sounds interesting, even though my people never did such a celebration" or so IC. This, still, forces a background decision on myself and the OP: does he now treat me as part of a minority of Sebs who do not follow this custom? Do I accept that characterization, for myself, and for everyone else I might meet in the game who cannot fit in that idea? Or do I contest his idea that he represents the majority, and bring in my own majority, and have a publicity contest about whose majority is bestest? And wouldn't both of us actually rather be playing the feast than deciding these things?

On the other hand, if initially, the whole thing was presented as "a Sebiestor way" (yes, just one word of difference!), I could think "not my cup of tea" and simply assume that while some Sebiestor do it, they might be a minority, or from a different region than my character, or whatever. It would also be easier to express interest in the feast even if I do not want to incorporate it into "my" Sebiestor ways. "Oh, that sounds interesting! I never heard of such a custom..." would be neutral, and place neither me nor the OP in the minority, but both as equal individuals discussing cultural ideas.

Like I tried to explain above,
1) I do not think this particular wording is an important issue at all, it is just indicative of a wider cultural clash, and
2) I completely believe that is is not the intent of people who put other people off with phrasings that imply that what you invented is THE way. (If it was their intent, there obviously wouldn't be any problem with this.)

Apologies if my viewpoints were offensive. I did not intend them as such. I was trying to offer my 2 cents about easy things we could all do to play together better - simply try and carefully make room for everyone's inventions.

[Bong-cha Jones]

Guessing some of Syylara's post is addressed at me.  So let's deal with that. I haven't offered a 'not that' response.  My ideas on how Intaki as a government and how Simon's culture are structured and behave are contained in chat logs (both IC and OOC), IGS posts, my blog and in several threads on this board.  I've talked to an ILF member before on how I generate Intaki language terms and have repeatedly tried to refine and present a political point of view I think many Intaki hold.  I'm sorry if you haven't been exposed to it.  If you'd like, I could try do dedicate some time to building a resource on this.  I hadn't thought it would be useful, because I'm not a very active roleplayer, but maybe there is a need after all.


I have stated, plainly, my problems with some of this before.  In a couple of threads.  My character does not have a problem with Khumbelaa itself, as he said in the thread.  I think it's pretty clear, though, from a variety of IC posts, that he has a problem with some of the goals and attitudes of the ILF.  It's possible for him to do both.  And yes, interpretations are often slanted, but for Simon that half a sentence that could be explained away isn't a lone occurrence.  I'm sorry if you don't think my character is being fair to your alliance.

I'd encourage you not to give up on your writing.  Nothing can please everybody, and in a large setting like this there will always be disagreement, but if you and your friends enjoy it, I wouldn't let anybody stop you.  I'm sorry if I contributed to you feeling that way.

[Artabanus]

I'd encourage you not to give up on your writing.  Nothing can please everybody, and in a large setting like this there will always be disagreement, but if you and your friends enjoy it, I wouldn't let anybody stop you.  I'm sorry if I contributed to you feeling that way.

Simon/everyone:

Those clarifying remarks as to Simon's political positions are certainly helpful in understanding his opposition to Kumhbelaa and the ILF. However, I would like to state that even on one planet...an endless variety of cultural, social, political and racial groups exist and co-exist (or don't), and that there certainly must be plenty of room for conscientious objectors to any number of issues present in a culture.

That there are some who celebrate some holiday called "Kumhbelaa" is a very real possibility, and that there are those that don't is too - even when referencing just the Intaki homeworld (Intaki V). When you consider that the Intaki are a diaspora culture and people, this possibility must grow exponentially, for if there are myriad cultures on one planet, this must grow when you speak of multiple planets being inhabited by "Intaki".

I realize that CCP has established roles for the different "races"; however, if we were to think in realistic terms, no one ideology, religion or philosophy can completely sum up an entire people, since, in reality, the "entire people" are typically made up of many peoples.

In short, I really think that there is room for everyone's opinion...in fact, disagreement is part of the discussion and the fabric of, for example, something like Kumhbelaa.

I hope that makes as much sense outside of my head as it did inside.

Rikiaato and Namas,

Art

[Casiella]

I see no reason why one group can't claim, "THIS is what our culture is about" while another group says, "no, you make us all look like fools by association and should stop making everyone think we're all alike."

This happens to me IRL every day when "Christians" start spouting off irrationally and in ways that fundamentally contradict what our shared origin document actually says.

So yeah, that means that some characters might well see Saxon Hawke as the Sarah Palin of Intaki...

[Bong-cha Jones]

I am confused, Artabanus.  I agree with your thoughts on Intaki cultural diversity, but you present it as being a counterargument to my position.  I must have done a terrible job at making my point clear; I'll try to be more coherent in the future.

[Artabanus]

I am confused, Artabanus.  I agree with your thoughts on Intaki cultural diversity, but you present it as being a counterargument to my position.  I must have done a terrible job at making my point clear; I'll try to be more coherent in the future.

Sorry Simon ....my point was not posited as a counterpoint...simply an addendum to what you were saying. You were not unclear; I suppose my point is that there is room for disagreement and objections; not everyone has to agree or be agreeable (or their characters for that matter...) in order to "play" together, and I was attempting to explain my reasons for making such an assertion.

Make sense now? Sorry for confusing everyone.

Art

[Z.Sinraali]

So yeah, that means that some characters might well see Saxon Hawke as the Sarah Palin of Intaki...

Saxon's hotter though.

[Bong-cha Jones]

I bet I'm the only confused one, Artabanus.  It's a downside to being me    I'll just say again that I agree with everything you said and I like the cut of your jib, sir.

[Artabanus]

I bet I'm the only confused one, Artabanus.  It's a downside to being me    I'll just say again that I agree with everything you said and I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Lol. Okay, well, I'm basically agreeing with you. I imagine that when I said "However", in my post replying to you, that it may have been misinterpreted as a counterargument, which it most certainly was not. In fact, I believe that this is an important point, for which, I appreciate Simon's objections.

New Eden is not as homogeneous as everyone - and perhaps even the creators of New Eden - imagine. In any country/nation, there are countless sub-groups, minority groups, etc. There are usually always multiple and "alternate" racial, ethnic, social, political, religious, philosophic, ideological, etc., groups and peoples found within the "majority". I am a true believer in that this is the case in New Eden. On a planet such as Intaki V...yes they are all "Intaki"...but within that national Intaki identity - and I'm referring only to one planet - there must be multiple ethnicities, social, religious, philosophic, etc., beliefs. Of course, the Intaki are spread throughout a large number of systems, so this multiplicity can itself be multiplied.

Thus, I believe that Simon's beliefs, convictions and objections to Kumhbelaa (or whatever) are not only possible, but they probably speak to the concerns of other Intaki.

Hope I haven't confused anyone further...just some of my thoughts.

Art

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Casiella, I think everyone in this thread actually agrees that there is enough room in the EVE universe for multiple customs and whatnot for each race. As has been said by several people, even on one planet there's huge variation in this kind of things. We do not disagree on the idea that there can be several "Sebiestor cultures" or "Intaki cultures" or whatever.

What we do disagree on is how distracting it is when someone ICly posts theirs as "THE Sebiestor way" or even the way of the majority, in a case where it is not the player's intention to portray the character as an asshole who wants to push their ways on everyone else (if it is actually the intent, I again think no one here sees a problem with that).

Some people think it is not distracting at all, because, well there's room for everyone, and they never OOCly meant that others can't do their stuff too. Some people, like me, think it is distracting, because instead of it being acknowledged that yes, there indeed is room, and us going on with talking about the various customs, I somehow have to "take the room" it by doing something about the big THE.

[Artabanus]

Casiella, I think everyone in this thread actually agrees that there is enough room in the EVE universe for multiple customs and whatnot for each race. As has been said by several people, even on one planet there's huge variation in this kind of things. We do not disagree on the idea that there can be several "Sebiestor cultures" or "Intaki cultures" or whatever.

What we do disagree on is how distracting it is when someone ICly posts theirs as "THE Sebiestor way" or even the way of the majority, in a case where it is not the player's intention to portray the character as an asshole who wants to push their ways on everyone else (if it is actually the intent, I again think no one here sees a problem with that).

Some people think it is not distracting at all, because, well there's room for everyone, and they never OOCly meant that others can't do their stuff too. Some people, like me, think it is distracting, because instead of it being acknowledged that yes, there indeed is room, and us going on with talking about the various customs, I somehow have to "take the room" it by doing something about the big THE.

Elsebeth:

I speak individually and for no one else when I say that I think that it is okay for someone to say that their way is THE way...what you say or I say is truly irrelevant in the large scheme...CCP says that the Intaki are one thing, yet the actual Intaki pilots are expanding far beyond what the creators have intended. The same can and does happen when someone may say that this is the Intaki way (for example).

I really do think that perhaps more is being made of Mammal's original post, and that semantics are being used - either inadvertently or otherwise - to fuel a debate that betrays a philosophical difference, not only in RP, but in how we all conceive of New Eden.

Art