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[Liuni Kalthis]

\o/ yay

[Lyn Farel]

No, if it had been only Lucas, there would be no problem with it. It would be a conflict between capsuleers that despise CONCORD secrecy and scream because DRIFTERS ARE COMING, and CONCORD supporters, where CONCORD does his police job.

Now though, it's just painting them in a tyrannical evil light. They are already despicable through the sheer inconsistency of their laws, utter incompetence, and many more things, and there is not much left to love in them... We really have lost what made them great at first before TEA. Now to me they just look like incompetent fools flailing their arms and making hissy fits no better than the capsuleers they are trying to crackdown upon...

How is operating within the confines of the Yulai convention Tyrannical? Draconic and heavy handed sure, but they are essentially using the tools given to them, it's not like they are rewriting any laws on the fly or "Changing the deal" as we go alone here.

If they were doing their police jobs properly, they would launch a warrant against Lucas like they did here, maybe with the same bounty, and ask the others for cooperation and call them to testimony/interrogation.

Wat? This is exactly what they are doing. They are asking for cooperation and all those suspected of collusion are being remanded on warrant. Testimony and cooperation comes after people have turned themselves in. They are issuing what happens if they don't turn themselves in.

This is exactly what happens if you skip bail or fail to appear after a subpoena has been issued for your questioning. Maybe not the bounty part. That's a little wild west, but its still pretty standard judicial practice. Failure to cooperate with a legal investigation is treated as obstruction of justice, a crime in and of itself.

I just don't see how this behavior is anything but very straightforward application of law, draconic sure but pretty standard.

Sorry if that's my feeling on the matter, but I don't like it, much like I didn't like Colelie. I think they got it right when it comes to the themes behind, but completely wrong on how they are doing it. It's a problem I have with the form, not the content. The form basically forces players to despise CONCORD (I can understand with all the stupid laws, it's tied to gamedesign silliness, but this... no).

And no, that's not what they are doing. They are not asking for cooperation, they are putting a huge bounty on their head. They already turned themselves in (cf Schere, that still got bountied no matter what).

I don't see any of this as something a serious organization would do... Well, maybe some do, and good for them I mean... But I don't myself.

tl;dr of everything I tried to say until now, and probably what Esna tried to tell too : please stop making the NPC factions act like idiots without any common sense, so that capsuleers can stroke their hardon on capsuleer emancipation.

[Makkal]

The form basically forces players to despise CONCORD (I can understand with all the stupid laws, it's tied to gamedesign silliness, but this... no), unless they are... I don't know.

'Unless they are...' having different thoughts and opinions than Lyn, something which you encounter constantly yet can only express as 'I don't know.'

I don't hate CONCORD. I don't despise it. 

I'd be surprised if I'm the only player that feels this way.

[Lyn Farel]

Good catch... That's also why I edited it because I noticed it could be heard that way too.

Ah well, a good way to ignore the rest of the content of my post!

I don't mind if players, or characters disagree with me, or my character. I am just voicing my OOC opinion on the matter, and am not the only one to think that way.

Maybe i'm too old and don't see the quality of the story improving to the standards we had in the past...

[Vizage]

I get that Lyn, taste is taste. Like Makkal im basically getting the exact opposite feeling from all this. I used to hate CONCORD, primarily because they were totally impotent and never really "policed" before, at least outside the game mechanics they were designed for. Although I could be wrong about this, but at least in my time here, they've seemed totally sedentary and not this large judicial body that supposedly loomed over us for the greater good.

And yes, you definately have a good point with Schere. It's very confusing why they continue to press on her even though she has agreed to cooperate completely, maybe its because they want to pressure her to pressure her colleagues? Or maybe what I'm more inclined to believe is that the employee working on the NPC actor Schere was in communication with isn't the same person who issued the bounty PDF, and information never get passed.

I dunno tho. I'm basically waiting to see what happens at this point. If they continue to press Schere, then I said the DED is crossing some legal lines, but at this point everything is just so crazy I can't really stop being excited about it.

[Lyn Farel]

Yes, ingame they were... poorly present, except through mechanics, that for some of them makes not much sense lorewise... They had a lot of redeeming qualities to be found in the lore, mostly. Their symbolic value, their incorruptible side, and just overall the space police/justice that used to bring together all the empires... Until TEA happened. That's why I loved seeing Korachi and some other DED actors playing the badasses in most live events, because it was the first times CONCORD came actually to do something.

Personally I'm still excited about the new interactions they promise with players... A lot more even, for what they did in Sarum Prime yesterday, because unlike old live events that turned most of the time into grindfests and a huge mess since they were always advertised in advance, those new ones look totally targeted on a more decent scale, and play on surprise. It may make me start to like live events, when I just stopped bothering in the past.

[Aria Jenneth]

And yes, you definately have a good point with Schere. It's very confusing why they continue to press on her even though she has agreed to cooperate completely, maybe its because they want to pressure her to pressure her colleagues? Or maybe what I'm more inclined to believe is that the employee working on the NPC actor Schere was in communication with isn't the same person who issued the bounty PDF, and information never get passed.

Okay, bit of lawyerly tactics, here.

When I see that a client of mine has cooperated with the police, I want to /headdesk. Neither prosecutors nor police are typically very sympathetic. The defendant who cooperates with police early on has no leverage in negotiation and gets hit with a brick.

What's more, a defendant (esp. one who has no leverage) may be used as leverage against co-defendants who care about her.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The problem I have with it, kind'a, is twofold.

In game, I personally see a harsh break between a DED/CONCORD that "were totally impotent and never really 'policed' before, at least outside the game mechanics they were designed for", a CONCORD that didn't lift a finger when they were practically told up front that the Elderfleet will destroy their HQ... etc. pp. and a DED/CONCORD that goes down on cpasuleers for what seems to be a minor transgression with the force of a thermonuklear bomb, continuing even to threaten people who comply to their full ability.

I don't like whole 180° turnarounds in a story. They are simply not believable, they mean a break of suspension of disbelief for me and generally lend themselves easily to cause such. And lastly, it means you can't really know what consequences you can expect, given your actions. It also leads to inconsistencies as the laws on biomass, which have never been enacted by CONCORD, until now where it's quite convenient for them. - It's a deus ex machina of the bad sort, in my opinion.

Out of game, the problem is that the timeframes are so short that they are counterproductive to any RP happening between the involved parties that aims at searching a third solution between just fleeing the DED and simply comlying. While that might be realistic in some sense, it's also frustrationg. But it is worse: I for example had no way to react to the situation within the original 24 hour ultimatum, simply due to the short timeframe, it being under the week and me having a life besides EVE, with work to be done and sleep to be had. Some people centrally involed in this have not been at home for the weekend, I have heared. Others didn't want to make decisions over their heads. And when I wrote to some NPCs it took a full 15 hours for them to respond - which is reasonable as they are merely people as well, but which is an awfully long time given the background of a 24 hour ultimata tact.

And I'm not even getting into the problem of coordinating over various timzones there.

So, while the way the ultimata are placed follows a certain in-game logic, I feel like the people responsible for setting those OOCly failed to take into measure that we and they are actually not spending 24 hours in EVE and that the realities in the game are subject to out of game realities, rather than the other way around.

(Actually, I stayed with EVE rather than WOW, because the raids I have been member of in my late WOW days didn't see it like that, while the corps in EVE I was a member of saw it pretty much like that: RL/OOC > IC/IG. And EVE lent itself to be played like that.)

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Okay, bit of lawyerly tactics, here.

When I see that a client of mine has cooperated with the police, I want to /headdesk. Neither prosecutors nor police are typically very sympathetic. The defendant who cooperates with police early on has no leverage in negotiation and gets hit with a brick.

What's more, a defendant (esp. one who has no leverage) may be used as leverage against co-defendants who care about her.

That's how it works in the US, huh? 

[Aria Jenneth]

Okay, bit of lawyerly tactics, here.

When I see that a client of mine has cooperated with the police, I want to /headdesk. Neither prosecutors nor police are typically very sympathetic. The defendant who cooperates with police early on has no leverage in negotiation and gets hit with a brick.

What's more, a defendant (esp. one who has no leverage) may be used as leverage against co-defendants who care about her.

That's how it works in the US, huh? 

Sometimes maddeningly, yes. I think there might be a cultural ebb and flow to this, though.

At the moment, we've got a rift between the police and the policed, and it often extends to the prosecutors.

[Rok-Yuni]

my only issue with the way people are talking about CONCORD, is that other than the limited number of Dev actors that are about, CONCORD can't actually get involved against the drifters or any other group for that matter.

It's hardcoded into the design of their abilities in game.

using that OOC limitation as an IC barb just doesn't sit well with me, i hated it when it was used during the Nation incursions against both the Navies and CONCORD too...

just my 2 cents.

otherwise.... YAY, CCP - Player interaction again.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Sometimes maddeningly, yes. I think there might be a cultural ebb and flow to this, though.

At the moment, we've got a rift between the police and the policed, and it often extends to the prosecutors.

Did anyone ever tell your police and prosecutors that they're basically teaching your population not to cooperate with them? <,< I mean, that's basic psychology, there. If cooperation is punished and non-cooperation rewarded... Ohmy. I better don't think about that any further.

Let me just say this way of handling things doesn't seem like and example of 'best practice' to me.

[Samira Kernher]

There's a reason why the US tends to breed a culture of anti-establishment.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

And that's why CCP takes them as blueprint for the DED/CONCORD? 

Oh, did I mention earlier that whenever any official from the 4 nations was contacted, all they answered boiled down to "Hand it over to CONCORD.", regardless of whether they were asked to intervene or to recieve the brainslice instead of CONCORD (and then obviously being free to hand it over to CONCORD with a triumphant gesture, showing that they could handle what the DED could not)?

Where's the flexibility there?

[Kyoko Sakoda]

Where's the flexibility there?