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Author Topic: Firing a salvo  (Read 11482 times)

Saede Riordan

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #60 on: 09 Nov 2010, 11:52 »

Having a bar is different than creating a Senator. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

Soter....where do you draw the line? Its a slippery slope, as soon as you start saying its okay to denounce the existence of one thing, it gets easier and easier to use it as a crutch the next time. Don't like something? Well its not real, it didn't really happen.
It starts a precedent.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #61 on: 09 Nov 2010, 11:56 »

It looks like I'm going to disagree with some points here.

In EVE RP, I don't think blocking is always wrong.

In general, you run with the player inventions which are close to canon or reasonable extensions of it ("Yes, and..."), you play a bit with player inventions where you know CCP could detail the story differently over the top of you ("Really? But that would mean... ooooh...."), and sometimes you just roll your eyes and walk away thinking "gods and spirits, not another reincarnated Jovian princeling: what is it with the wackos who can take the implants?". I think constructive blocking like that can be a way to define and reaffirm the edges of our shared 'world'.

And just one response to the items on Nikita's list:
My character doesn't really work for the angel cartel, there's no game mechanic or dev approval stamp for that.

Yes, there is. It's called faction standings, and it's one of the reasons for doing tedious standings grinds. Actions 'in space' matter in EVE RP, and that includes the (NPC) corporations you choose to work for as well as the other pilots you fight or fleet with.
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #62 on: 09 Nov 2010, 12:52 »

Casiella, these parties were explicitly generated as parties with representation within the Federation Senate. Thus, they create 'Senators' holding positions that the player(s) that created these 'parties' wanted them to hold.

"Salutations from the Senate Bureau"

"Those of you who follow Federation politics closely may have been expecting this, but for the rest let me briefly explain my presence here. Pursuant to the expiration of Federal Legislation 23338-501a and 501b (commonly known as the Insulation Acts) at 0001 hours Eden Standard on 01.11YC112, the organizational committee of the Federal Progressive Party applied for and received sanctioned access to the Intergalactic Summit comms channel.

On behalf of my party, let me extend sincerest greetings to the pilots of New Eden. The modern pod pilot is in many ways the Progressor ideal. As the best of the best, you are truly the leaders who will define the future of the Federation and all the empires. I am honored to have this chance to communicate with you directly and look forward to interacting with you all more closely in the coming weeks and months.

Until then, success on your journeys."

Senate Bureau, implying that they have Senate seats. Additionally, the agent provacateur, Alain Octirant, stated that his party started a petition within the Federation Senate. As far as I know, in accordance with parliamentary procedure throughout human history, simple citizenry can't do that. Only Senators.

« Last Edit: 09 Nov 2010, 12:54 by Julianus Soter »
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #63 on: 09 Nov 2010, 13:20 »

Soter....where do you draw the line? Its a slippery slope, as soon as you start saying its okay to denounce the existence of one thing, it gets easier and easier to use it as a crutch the next time. Don't like something? Well its not real, it didn't really happen.
It starts a precedent.

Mmhm. Which sounds appropriate to me. It's called exercising judgement.

If you're uncomfortable setting limits in ambiguous situations you might decide to avoid ambiguity and go with 'always-yes' or 'always-no'. I have it on good authority, though, that some people do enjoy playing with 'maybe', 'just-a-bit' and 'how-far-can-this-go?'. :)

It's nothing new in the EVE RP world to say "they're delusional" or "that holo was faked". It can be an appropriate response to annoying attempts at god-mod(d)ing, for instance. And this discussion does seem to be largely about that: at what point does cool world-building and co-creation turn into "Argh! You're trying to control my character -- or parts of the 'world' that my character can't consistently ignore -- in ways which I hate!"?
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Seriphyn

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #64 on: 09 Nov 2010, 13:40 »

I think Jade nailed the matter here, which is "undermining the RP", which was then elaborated on as "Blocking" by Matariki in the area of improv (and RP is basically improv theatre).

As for citizens submitting petitions ot the Senate, they certainly can do that.

I'd like to point out what Jade said about how "undermining the RP" becomes more of an OOC player issue.

I use the example of posts 55, 56, 57 and 60 here.

PF was cited regarding a certain IC statement, but the followup reply was still an example of "blocking", even with the example of prime fiction. This is when it RP becomes a real issue, but it works both ways...when someone RPs, they can easily (instead of saying there is no PF basis), do the opposite and cite/quote PF to undermine someone's RP. I often do that a lot, since I'm a big PF whore (comes from RPing a faction with the least PF)
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Ken

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #65 on: 09 Nov 2010, 23:43 »

I wasn't going to dip in here again, but this was just a frustratingly strange idea that I had to comment on it.  I'm not trying to dig at you, Jules, just pointing some things out that were obvious to me from the beginning since I never thought these characters were trying to be senators.

Senate Bureau, implying that they have Senate seats.
Not everyone whose address includes the line "Washington, D.C." holds a seat in the US Congress.  Also, political parties have internal leadership structures apart from the heirarchy that exists among the elected officials belonging to a party.  Barack Obama is the senior-most Democrat in the US, but former Virginia governor Tim Kaine functions as the party's leader with the title of Chairman of the DNC.  Kaine's job includes things like organizing his party, engaging with the media, and helping to shape its platform, and that's exactly who I thought of when I read these threads.
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #66 on: 10 Nov 2010, 00:03 »

I think you missed the rest of my post, Ken.

"Additionally, the agent provacateur, Alain Octirant, stated that his party started a petition within the Federation Senate. As far as I know, in accordance with parliamentary procedure throughout human history, simple citizenry can't do that. Only Senators."
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Ken

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #67 on: 10 Nov 2010, 00:15 »

Yea, I didn't think that one held water either, but I wasn't going to pick your whole post apart.  This is what it says on ANN:

Quote from: Arcadia News Network
With regards to Navy being turned away from Intaki Space, Octirant said the Nationalists have been trying for months to push the Senate to issue a formal legislative censure of the Intaki Assembly.
Talking about one's party doesn't mean one is an elected official belonging to that party.  I'll grant only that the line in the article implies Octirant knows some senators, but not that he is one or that the motion actually made it to the senate floor.

EDIT:  Also found this in the 'salutations' thread:
Quote from: Renjith Prabeaux
I would like to clarify that neither myself nor the other representatives here are serving members of the Federation Senate. Likewise, although we work closely with elected officials and directly support our parties through all stages of the democratic process, we are not ourselves candidates for any office.
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2010, 00:18 by Ken »
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #68 on: 10 Nov 2010, 00:32 »

Of course the characters themselves aren't senators. Nor did I claim such a thing.

So, the retroactive view of these groups is that they're lobbyist groups with no effective representation within the Federal halls of power? A political party, by definition, has political candidates for elective office, after all. Either they have people on the inside of the Senate that are championing their political causes, or these are on the same scale as the Green Party in the United States.

Which gives me a suitable weapon in character to use for future debates.

Though, that leaves the question. Why would Saxon Hawke react so passionately to a party like the US Greens for seeking to make such a petition? Why did he issue a challenge, out of character, with the generation of this thread?

Why was this seen as a breakthrough in federal roleplay? Any micro-party without standing to hold any Federal offices shouldn't be thought of as 'parties', anyway.

This brings us back to the Miesian Pastry Patriot Party, I think.
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2010, 00:34 by Julianus Soter »
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Casiella

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #69 on: 10 Nov 2010, 00:44 »

Probably because the participants (outside of the party operatives in question) have enjoyed the RP, and they feel like you're telling them that they're doing it all wrong and should not do things that way. Additionally, I recall that many people, including yours truly, supported your character's run for office when that occurred, despite the similar implications here.

Alternate courses of action might include ignoring the things you dislike and moving onto the things that you do.
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Ken

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #70 on: 10 Nov 2010, 00:45 »

Quote from: Julianus Soter
This brings us back to the Miesian Pastry Patriot Party, I think.

Great, then we've cleared things up.  I understand you meant that these characters imply the existence of senatorial representation of their parties rather than the characters themselves being senators.  I can get back to completely disagreeing with your attitude on this topic.

A: Hey, wanna play cops and robbers?

B: Sure!  I love cops and robbers.

A: Okay.  Bang!  I shot you!

B: Agh!  You scoundrel!  Good thing it was just a grazing shot.  Bang!  Bang!  ::laugher::

C: Nuh-uh, no you didn't!  This is my house and you're not allowed to have guns!
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #71 on: 10 Nov 2010, 01:06 »

Everyone is a participant in public roleplay. It all creates sea-changes in the environment. It's non-consensual.

If you want to have private roleplay using some lobbyist groups and such to provide the catalyst for organizational development or character growth, by all means. But attempting to generate Senate-level political parties within the Federation, with no justification for their existance besides tenuous preconceptions on politics in the Fed, is a bit of a stretch on the best of days.

Running for elected office is possible for every Federation citizen. Which my character was, and is.  Of course, you don't get elected.

« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2010, 01:08 by Julianus Soter »
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Syylara/Yaansu

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #72 on: 10 Nov 2010, 02:17 »

Everyone is a participant in public roleplay. It all creates sea-changes in the environment. It's non-consensual.

Oh, I see, you don't personally like the direction it takes things and think that gives you the right to object.  No pun intended, but this isn't the U.S. Senate where unanimous consent is required.  There is no poll to take, you are not guaranteed protections from other people weaving fictitious events in the EULA.

Absolutely nobody has told you that you must swallow all of this as fact and participate wholeheartedly in every thread they appear in once per day.  When RP groups diverge on some point of reality about the universe and (because they innately do/don't enjoy the new twist) each sticks to their interpretation, the best solution is to stop arguing about it, do it the way you like and others like you prefer and meet the others on ground you do find common.

Because the big cognitive disconnect staring you in the face is that it is just as much of an imposition and non-consensual affront for you to demand everyone who enjoys this to stop it as it is for them to demand you conform to it.

Just a humorous note, but...EVE is not really built on the idea of consent, anyways :9.

Quote
If you want to have private roleplay using some lobbyist groups and such to provide the catalyst for organizational development or character growth, by all means. But attempting to generate Senate-level political parties within the Federation, with no justification for their existance besides tenuous preconceptions on politics in the Fed, is a bit of a stretch on the best of days.

This is just another way of saying "ur doin it wrong".

Also, on the subject of different interpretations of what our shared reality is, after the most recent U.S. election cycle, I think it stands as quite obvious that in the real world, people have entirely different sets of facts they believe in.  Fractious and varied opinion on what different political groups stand for is actually more realistic in my mind than widespread cohesive agreement.  To my mind, arguing over whether Mr. Octirant is or isn't truly the party chairman or whatever is more immersion breaking than arguing with him that his statements strike you as out of sync with the overall Nationalist ideology, etc.

Let me circle back around and try this: are there conditions under which you would feel comfortable expanding on Fed RP at all?  How can this be a more inclusive process?  Despite my sharp teeth for debating, I'd prefer to have more friends than enemies, so if there's a way for us all to participate and get enjoyment from it, I'd take that over anything :9.
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2010, 04:11 by Syylara/Yaansu »
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Ulphus

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #73 on: 10 Nov 2010, 03:17 »

But attempting to generate Senate-level political parties within the Federation, with no justification for their existance besides tenuous preconceptions on politics in the Fed, is a bit of a stretch on the best of days.

I'm assuming that you believe there are actual parties in the Federation, even if they're not well outlined in the PF, is that right?

Then if so, it seems reasonable to me that one can expect that there will be a party with a nationalist ideology. Is it really so game breaking when someone says they're part of such a party?

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Seriphyn

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Re: Firing a salvo
« Reply #74 on: 10 Nov 2010, 05:15 »

The Progessors, Sociocrats and Unionists are all political parties according to PF. There are also Populists as well, though they do not have a character (mentioned IC by Alain Octirant as not participating with the capsuleers).

I think you missed the rest of my post, Ken.

"Additionally, the agent provacateur, Alain Octirant, stated that his party started a petition within the Federation Senate. As far as I know, in accordance with parliamentary procedure throughout human history, simple citizenry can't do that. Only Senators."

Again, as I have mentioned if Soter is endeavouring to read my posts...

As for citizens submitting petitions ot the Senate, they certainly can do that.

Running for elected office is possible for every Federation citizen. Which my character was, and is.  Of course, you don't get elected.
This seems inconsistent with your posts regarding how capsuleers are not “tied to their birthlands” and are no longer citizens, or not considered to be.
I would like to repeat what others are saying here; no one is asking you to can it and believe that these characters are as they are described as. They’re simply requesting that you leave the “improv blocking” and let others roleplay with the individuals. It descends to a group of children playing together, before a third party stomps in and says their play is wrong and that they should stop playing with each other.
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