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That the DED and the Sisters of EVE cooperate on audits of megacorps? (The Burning Life p 35)

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Author Topic: [Language] Amarrad  (Read 27938 times)

Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #15 on: 29 Sep 2010, 09:24 »

>Amarrish
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1078.msg12471#msg12471

>Amarrad is The Scriptures.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scriptures

"The collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians and include texts that hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians."

CCP has established that the Amarr language is (at least sometimes) called Amarish. CCP has established (as far as I can tell, Ginger edited in the part I quoted above) that The Scriptures - at least the older parts - are written in a language that cannot be Amarish, because Amarish is readable by today's Amarrians. I decided to create the "ancient tongue" mentioned.

I should also point out that the Our Speech Poem is ... poetic, and not meant to be interpreted 100% literally.
« Last Edit: 29 Sep 2010, 09:27 by Horatius Caul »
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Ashar Kor-Azor

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #16 on: 30 Sep 2010, 09:32 »

1) Old English is unreadable to today's English speakers.
2) The developers don't do well with aesthetics. If you play by their rules at all times simply for the sake of it, you're a cute little bunny and I'm going to make a stew out of you. I don't think it's particularly clever that the Caldarians speak Caldanese, or that the Minmatars are hanging around, or that the Amarrs speak Amarrish. And half that shit came in with TonyG anyhow, so.

If it's not to be taken literally, say so in it, please. Words matter. You know why? Because every time I see people have a 'deep theological debate' on the IGS lately, it's this silly shit that revolves around interpreting the snippets of dev-approved scripture again and again rather than thinking on the result of interpolating the available cultural data we have in regards to the Amarr. And that's pitifully surface-level.

Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #17 on: 30 Sep 2010, 13:07 »

If it's not to be taken literally, say so in it, please. Words matter. You know why? Because every time I see people have a 'deep theological debate' on the IGS lately, it's this silly shit that revolves around interpreting the snippets of dev-approved scripture again and again rather than thinking on the result of interpolating the available cultural data we have in regards to the Amarr. And that's pitifully surface-level.
I'm sorry but what?

No, I'm not going to point out in a piece of in-character fiction that the item is not to be taken literally. I leave that to context and insinuation. The structure of Our Speech is poetic, something that should be obvious. Furthermore, it's a poem (presumably) written by an Amarrian (religious) scholar, about a language almost only found in religious texts, religious ceremony and religious education. When he wrote "Amarrad is The Scripture", perhaps he meant it as a way to emphasize in a single simple sentence the close bond between the holy texts of the Amarrian religion and the language they're written in?

He could have written a whole paragraph about it, an essay, a dissertation, a paper... but A) it wouldn't have been poetic enough to last as a foreword in all religious textbooks for so long as to place the initial use so far in the past as to be indeterminable, and B) I couldn't have, because when I wrote Our Speech that was essentially the full extent of the Amarrad vocabulary.

And in-character theological debates being "silly shit that revolves around interpreting the snippets of dev-approved scripture again and again rather than thinking on the result of interpolating the available cultural data we have in regards to the Amarr"? That's exactly what theological debates are in real life, with "God" replacing "dev" and whichever people the relevant religious scripture first appeared among replacing "Amarr." Sure, some theologians can be quite reasonable and scientific in their approach, but they have a luxury of having an absolutely staggering amount of relevant prime fiction to pour over and analyse.

Even if you have every piece of Amarr PF committed to memory, there is very little for you as a player to extrapolate with. The situation is further complicated by the implication that your character has much more of the same material to work with, but you can argue that this applies to all RP.

In addition, CCP has indicated that Amarr is rife with cults that focus intently on limited Scripture passages - in part because it takes half a lifetime to read all Scripture and another half of a lifetime to figure out what it means. I think that is also part of what's driven the very narrow-focus analysis on the already narrow slice of scripture we've been offered to read.

tl;dr: I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

Ashar Kor-Azor

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #18 on: 30 Sep 2010, 14:33 »

Context and insinuation. Oh, dear.

YOU are the creator of this piece of history. You either give it the appropriate context at its creation, or you damn well don't stick in anything about how it was the foreword in all the textbooks. Because you can make shit up about the culture that doesn't box in everyone else, thank you very much. Not everybody likes being boxed in.

Theological debate is also not worth your low opinion, considering its appropriate role in Amarrian society according to the prime fiction. One which you're seeking to bolster, given that you're creating more material to use in said debates.

And I didn't say extrapolate, I said interpolate. Because there's plenty to interpolate from. Namely, seven years of prime fiction.

I tell you the following having looked over plenty of prime fiction and having my opinion asked damn near constantly on Amarr materials and writing fiction and what should be avoided by players seeking to respect everyone else's capacity for expression: DON'T create restrictive content that seeks to establish how EVERYTHING is for a given faction, it's language, it's history, or whatever else. That serves only your ego, not my creative outlet; being proud and defensive of it is like being happy to have put someone in a cage. Cut it out, don't do it again. There's plenty of other things to build.

You want to make a dialect? Fine.
You want to write some fluff about how things were back in the day, in this corner of the society over here? Fine.
You want to claim that ALL INSTRUCTIONAL TEXTS in a field as crucial to the others among us who like to so much as think about the Amarr had a certain work in them, a work set into the first page, a work whose character speaks to the content and form of the Amarrian scriptures? Well, SURPRISE SURPRISE! Someone's going to object, and lots of people are going to ignore you, because it upsets the concensus. It closes off more probability space than it opens. It seeks to affect the nature of what MUST apply to the group in question.

Don't do that. It cheapens the game for everyone else.

As for what CCP's story team has indicated over the years - again, I've looked at it plenty long. If you're going to take anything away from the material presented, it's that there's plenty of room for you to make shit up that doesn't reduce my capacity to make more shit up.

But thank you for constructing another story I don't want to use to add to the breadth of the game. It had been a while since anyone carried it off quite as well as you had.

Addendum: If we take the rest of the available content into consideration, Ginger and company were wrong about the nature of the scriptures. Because the rest of the content indicates that the Scriptures contain the full sum of published and respected knowledge available to the Empire, not just a few religious volumes.

There are a significant number of references to how scripture encompasses practical knowledge as well as esoteric information, art, literature, and most mainstream cultural product. EVERYTHING goes into that cauldron-pot. If we were to construct a comparison using real-world examples, the set of information that would go into such a collection would include the full range of expression of religious thinkers from now into prehistory, all published academic papers from every source that were judged to have even a modicum of truth, all literature that made it past a publisher, histories of every nation on earth, trade records, tables of data, tabulated scientific observations, and anything else significant. A paper on the production processes of laser weaponry is a scriptural document. In the Kingdom, so is Khanid's propaganda and ideology from the time of secession and the war (think Declaration of Independence). So are the records relating to the capture, administration, and award of all Mandate territory to appropriate vassals (think Louisiana purchase). The 'scriptures' that the theology council stamps 'approved' on are added to hourly; they must be - and it is only the highest source of these documents. There are plenty of others.

Let's not pretend we're talking about there just being enough administrative work here to busy the hands of a single council of theologians. There are dozens of Theology Council stations all over the Empire, and some well outside it. Why? To give a couple dozen people near the capital some folks to lord over? These places must have a function.
« Last Edit: 30 Sep 2010, 15:18 by Ashar Kor-Azor »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #19 on: 03 Oct 2010, 08:25 »

Thank you for actually giving me criticism, other than "Ho-ho, no no." I honestly appreciate it.

It's definitely not my intention to make anybody overly constrained by this, no more than I imagine Napanii (as an old Caldari language or as a state lingua franca) is intended to constrain people. My only intention is to create a basis for an asset that may (however little) help make the roleplay of EVE more immersive.

I don't want this to be a one-person project, because it won't get anywhere if anyone regards it as such. All comments and items of criticism will be valued, as long as they are complete sentences  :D

Addendum: If we take the rest of the available content into consideration, Ginger and company were wrong about the nature of the scriptures. Because the rest of the content indicates that the Scriptures contain the full sum of published and respected knowledge available to the Empire, not just a few religious volumes.
I'm not sure I see how that is mutually exclusive with the texts (originally) being written in a language foreign to the commoners.

Before the Moral Reforms, as far as I can tell, the Empire was a complete theocracy. The Emperor as head of the Council of Apostles might as well have been titled Pope. The church was the bureaucracy, and had the power to interfere in everything with absolute power. It needed the populace to be kept ignorant and subservient, and for the nobles to be completely dependent on the church.

If a religion wants to control the thoughts of a nation, what better way than to make sure that all scientific and authoritative writing is penned in a language only available through education from the representatives of said religion? The Catholic church controlled Europe from the fall of Rome to the Renaissance by this very technique, keeping knowledge of Latin and literacy in general confined to within monastic walls.

Would it be such a stretch to imagine that the Empire played the same game? That the theocratic state controlled the populace in part through the monopolization of Scriptural language, and ensuring that all scientific texts were written in that same language (ostensibly to ensure that those texts could be elevated to the same level as other Scriptures)?

There are a significant number of references to how scripture encompasses practical knowledge as well as esoteric information, art, literature, and most mainstream cultural product. EVERYTHING goes into that cauldron-pot. If we were to construct a comparison using real-world examples, the set of information that would go into such a collection would include the full range of expression of religious thinkers from now into prehistory, all published academic papers from every source that were judged to have even a modicum of truth, all literature that made it past a publisher, histories of every nation on earth, trade records, tables of data, tabulated scientific observations, and anything else significant. A paper on the production processes of laser weaponry is a scriptural document. In the Kingdom, so is Khanid's propaganda and ideology from the time of secession and the war (think Declaration of Independence). So are the records relating to the capture, administration, and award of all Mandate territory to appropriate vassals (think Louisiana purchase). The 'scriptures' that the theology council stamps 'approved' on are added to hourly; they must be - and it is only the highest source of these documents. There are plenty of others.
I completely agree with this view of the Scriptures. The vast majority of the Empire's scientific literature would be found within the libraries of Scripture, and any dedicated scientist in the Empire would likely need to study those same texts if she wanted to get anywhere in her work. When religious power was absolute, all scientific knowledge would likely have had to been directly approved by the precursor to the Theology Council before it was allowed to be applied to anything. That said, the Moral Reforms was a strong movement away from the theocratic control in Amarr, and this would have also applied to the control of scientific thought.

While the Theology Council - which is described as "the last vestige" of religious control in the Empire - is likely still busy with reviewing research papers for heresies or scriptural qualities, I don't think there are any indications that science in the reformed Empire needs to be expressly approved (though I imagine it can be declared heretical). This change was necessary to keep the Empire from stagnating, and absolutely vital when Amarr started bumping heads with other starfaring nations. Using a Caldari shield emission theory to design a more efficient shield booster would be neither heretical nor held up as Scripture - it would more likely fall in a broad field of "Acceptable" that might not have existed before the Reforms (or if it did, it would have been very narrow).

In addition, I believe most of the Scriptures has been translated from Amarrad to modern Amarrian (they would have had over a millennia - plenty of time, even if there's a lot of work), plus new modern texts being approved as Scripture. This is something I don't think would have happened in the pre-reform society, but has become accepted (and, indeed, the standard) after the theocratic rule was ousted from power.

I hope that explains some of my thoughts on the matter further.
« Last Edit: 04 Jan 2011, 06:21 by Horatius Caul »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #20 on: 01 Dec 2010, 06:28 »

Updated the glossary, moving on to some more modern terms.

Someone may be interested to know that I used Basque to plug some glaring gaps - and the fact that Google has started including transliteration in Translate is a godsend  :D

Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #21 on: 13 Dec 2010, 08:06 »

Slow day at work, so I'm doing some of this...

English:
The Amarr people came into the world and the world came into being.
Our illustrious ancestors freed their souls from the evils of the old world and created a new one.
The great Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.
To do so the enemies of the outside had to be defeated and the enemies of the inside controlled.
The Lord gave our Emperor the power to harness the Good and punish the Evil.
Ever since, the Emperor has lived the lives of his subjects and breathed the air of authority.
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:14

Amarrad:
Haman Amarru foriv Dunija haveret, ta Dunija foriv valorush haveret.
Anle Atan Amarru teynarr ruhan kuchulet en Cotijan fin Dunija Puor, ta nij dunija vashaifet.
vaiach Reshios Amarr ihyn yetistirim Insan Hamanu ejed karalmasit.
Tushman Tisindu hereket ihyn olemth jenilgh, ta Tushman Icinkhu ihyn olemth tesel, et chov ejed ihyn ulesmet
Meza kachiv amarr reshjvaj, vedet Derman ihyn Kuch cosum ta Cotij vekheb.
dentiast soner, Reshjvaj Khaies jarr fhaifen vakhait, ta hav jekhti dechjret.
- e Chorim, Buaran iekh 1:14


Lit(ish). trans:
The Men of Amarr into The World came, and The World into existence came.
Our Celebrated Ancestors liberated their souls from The Evils of The Old World, and a new world created.
The great Amarr Empire, to the spirit of man cultivate, was established.
The Enemies of the outside needed to be defeated, and the enemies of the inside needed to be in submission, for that to be achieved.
The Lord, unto our Emperor, gave the power to the Good harness and the Evil punish.
Ever since, The Emperor the lives of his subjects has lived, and air of authority breathed.
- The Scripture, Pages One 1:14

Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #22 on: 16 Dec 2010, 08:28 »

Translated the ranks used by the 24th Imperial Crusade:

Sovalji Lejhacla - Paladin Crusader

Techme Tapinachu - Templar Lieutenant

Techme Onemel - Cardinal Lieutenant

Techme Sahu - Arch Lieutenant

Baiach Reshij - Imperial Major

Aresh Onhach - Marshal Commander

Onhach Reshvadim - Imperator Commander

Harahk Elbenij - Tribunus Colonel

Jerec Ogerat - Legatus Commodore

Tetogerat - Divine Commodore
« Last Edit: 17 Dec 2010, 01:32 by Horatius Caul »
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Mitara Newelle

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #23 on: 16 Dec 2010, 11:22 »

Cool stuff, Horatius, keep up the good work!
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Section 3) Shitposting. "The cluster would be a much better place if all Amarrians were set on fire"

Invelious

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #24 on: 16 Dec 2010, 11:54 »

Based on whats happening here. What would our Amarish names be?
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Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #25 on: 16 Dec 2010, 12:34 »

Based on whats happening here. What would our Amarish names be?
I'm not that fond of translating proper names, but I imagine Invelious' title would render as: Reshjvajarr Man - 'The Emperor's Hand' or Man Reshjvaju - 'The Hand of the Emperor'

EDIT: And, of course, there's a world of difference between Amarish (which is much younger than Amarrad and enjoys machine translation) and Amarrad.
« Last Edit: 16 Dec 2010, 12:37 by Horatius Caul »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #26 on: 17 Dec 2010, 04:15 »

Some ship classes, from prior glossary expansion:

Kheber - Punisher

Tafidhas - Executioner

Qutyb - Magnate

Teslevar - Crucifier

Lejhacla - Crusader

Ghfraij - Absolution

Sefarugh - Apocalypse

Heremdakh - Armageddon

Adharat - Redeemer

Danads - Sacrilege

Tejberek - Coercer

Metrechar - Maller

Mateseb - Zealot

Sovalje - Paladin

Of course, Amarr shiptype names have the added benefit of being religious terms and concepts. :)
« Last Edit: 17 Dec 2010, 04:22 by Horatius Caul »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #27 on: 20 Dec 2010, 05:41 »

Trying my hand at some organization names...

Khvaj Muhafezen en Sah - The Alliance of the Guardians of Truth

Merkez Bekzan Reshij vasherrechit - The Center of the Watchmen Imperial, incorporated

I'm sure you can guess who they are.

« Last Edit: 20 Dec 2010, 05:58 by Horatius Caul »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #28 on: 04 Jan 2011, 01:43 »

Here's a list of all the real-life languages Amarrad currently draws from, roughly in order of level of influence (number of words and grammar):

Romani (Ancient Indian, Ancient Persian, Balkan mix, European mix)
Yiddish (Hebrew, German)
Turkish
Hebrew
Arabic
Persian
Basque
Latin
« Last Edit: 04 Jan 2011, 02:35 by Horatius Caul »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: [Language] Amarrad
« Reply #29 on: 08 Jan 2011, 06:16 »



 
 

This thought has been infecting my head for a while, probably since I saw a symbol on the side of my Legion...

This is the word Tet - 'The Divine', rendered in one of the more well-known Amarrad scripts.

A glass of spiced wine to the first person to get where I extrapolated this from. Or, rather, what modern Amarrian symbol this ancient word has become.
« Last Edit: 08 Jan 2011, 06:18 by Horatius Caul »
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