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[Mizhara]

The thread on the specific matter of webhosting is closed, but I found on Chatsubo that I had some more things to say on the matter, and as it applies across the entire IC/OoC divide debate, I'd like to copypaste it here.

Let's out of the blue take some other examples, completely disconnected from RP. Clear your mind of RP, and think pure Eve Online competitive gameplay:

Phallic Symbol Alliance use a webserver to host their propaganda pictures of what is clearly compensating imagery in their own personal server. They post on CAOD or wherever, and use said links ingame too for that matter. There's overall fun to be had, and they post both their internal plans/documents along with the public propaganda on said server.

Glory Hole Alliance does not. They use tinypic or another public hosting that effectively randomize urls to a point where no connection can be made, except by the one doing the hosting for the alliance. His pictures of Thoraxes flying into jumpgates with humorous subtext are all obviously connected but only by content.

Now, PSA have a dastardly plan. They want to plunge into the Glory Hole Alliance, penetrate their security and wrest victory from the tender nether regions of GHA by using alts. Alts made solely for infiltrating and sabotaging the enemy. The PHA knows that the GHA really likes certain imagery, so they even have the alt make a fabulous picture of a Phobos bumping a mothership, with fantastic subtext, but they screw up. They host it on their own webserver. GHA spots that the picture is hosted on the same private server as PSA's own propaganda.

Le Gasp.

The violation was nipped in the bud.

Now, :opsec: is something we all know. It's something we all use in an Alliance vs Alliance or Eve (Everyone versus Everyone) setting. We keep plans to ourselves, and away from enemy eyes. Getting intel on the enemy is vital. I have personally obtained rather juicy intel on a few corporations I'm considering wardeccing, and I know I have kept my own stuff to myself.

Why should RP be any different? Yes, there's various views on this matter. Yes, different people will decide on different places to draw the line. I will respect that some choose one place, different than where I draw my own, but that also means I will still abide by my line and not one that doesn't make as much sense to me. Just as I expect the others to abide by what they have chosen, regardless of how I may feel about it. I believe the term 'non-consensual RP' is tossed around a lot on this board, or at least it used to be.

I know people won't follow my rules of engagement when it comes to RP. I act accordingly. I secure my 'intel', because even though I may not have acted upon it, someone sure as hell will. Maybe you wouldn't act on finding some kind of intel on me, but maybe I would act on it if I found it on you.

You don't want your webhosting server connecting two separate characters? Don't use the same server for both. You don't want your enemies using this intel against you? Deny them from ever getting it.

RPers don't get special treatment from non-RPers. If you give Non-RPers intel in what you consider OoC fashion, they'll use it against you. I don't see why RPers should do any different. Don't want these negative consequences? Don't give them the option.

Tinypic.

Learn to love it.

The point is... IC and OoC may be separate... but you'll never find a universal agreement on where to draw the line. Never. There will be a thousand people who are far stricter on separating IC/OoC than you are. There will be a thousand people who are far more lax in what they will use and what they won't.

No matter where you are, and where you draw the line... the solution is ridiculously easy. If you don't want the information used by less scrupulous people than you... Don't bloody give them the information. Trust the people you trust... don't trust the general public. Someone there will fuck you over if given the opportunity.

Seriously... why the hell should roleplayers have immunity from that when normal players never did?

[Jade Constantine]

No matter where you are, and where you draw the line... the solution is ridiculously easy. If you don't want the information used by less scrupulous people than you... Don't bloody give them the information. Trust the people you trust... don't trust the general public. Someone there will fuck you over if given the opportunity.

(emphasis mine on the bold/underline)

Okay I'm not sure I am understanding this in context and I apologize in advance if I am. But can you clarify your statement in the context of the recent ooc webserver info as IC RP thread (again I'm not sure if we are allowed to address the subject of a closed thread here but if not please delete these posts by all means.)

Are you saying that you think (in this instance.) that the player of a character who used the ooc website links to make an IC point is less scrupulous than the player who simply presented an IC character as separate from another IC character without going to the bother of using a separate webserver?

I'm really not trying to put words in your mouth. I would like a clarification so I understand what it is you are saying and I fully admit and publicly declare I might well have misunderstood you.

[Mizhara]

My apologies. The one connecting the dots and using information that's not universally recognized as IC information (even if he considers it to be), is of course the one with the least scruples. Least limiting IC/OoC divide choice. Some may say less principled RPer.

The point I was trying to make is that if you want people who may not play by the same rules as you do to not use information trails against you... don't leave said information trails behind.

... that's like a triple negative, isn't it? Screw it, I'm tired. I may fix this trainwreck tomorrow.

[Merdaneth]

If you don't want information you consider confidential about, don't give it away in any shape or form.

I avoid reading blogs. Why? Because people tend to write personal secrets in them. What if a fellow corp member writes on his blog that he is going to betray me. What should I do? I mean, obviously I should ignore this information IC, but my brain simply doesn't work that way, the very knowledge that the character is going to betray me will color his or her IC actions differently from that point on. I can honestly not tell anymore if I would have picked up some hints of betrayal IC without having read the blog, because the OOC info is affecting my vision. Just imagine watching the Sixth Sense for the first time after someone else has told you the clue. No matter how hard you try, your viewing of the movie will be very much affected by that knowledge.

Once you know Rosalund Shaw is a Jade alt, you simply cannot look at her anymore without bias. That means that if you want to keep your alt and connection secret as a player, you should take every effort to avoid having OOC about. Even if I wouldn't use a connection like an image on the same private server as IC evidence, realizing that is the image is on the same server OOC would still spoil my IC interaction with the character.

If you put info into an OOC channel, and that info can be linked to IC actions or motivations, you cannot use the OOC/IC divide as a shield anymore in a nonconsensual game of players with different standards for IC/OOC. You should simply ask yourself, could a non-RP misuse this information and go with that.

[deMangler]

If you don't want information you consider confidential about, don't give it away in any shape or form.

I avoid reading blogs. Why? Because people tend to write personal secrets in them. What if a fellow corp member writes on his blog that he is going to betray me. What should I do? I mean, obviously I should ignore this information IC, but my brain simply doesn't work that way, the very knowledge that the character is going to betray me will color his or her IC actions differently from that point on. I can honestly not tell anymore if I would have picked up some hints of betrayal IC without having read the blog, because the OOC info is affecting my vision. Just imagine watching the Sixth Sense for the first time after someone else has told you the clue. No matter how hard you try, your viewing of the movie will be very much affected by that knowledge.

Once you know Rosalund Shaw is a Jade alt, you simply cannot look at her anymore without bias. That means that if you want to keep your alt and connection secret as a player, you should take every effort to avoid having OOC about. Even if I wouldn't use a connection like an image on the same private server as IC evidence, realizing that is the image is on the same server OOC would still spoil my IC interaction with the character.

If you put info into an OOC channel, and that info can be linked to IC actions or motivations, you cannot use the OOC/IC divide as a shield anymore in a nonconsensual game of players with different standards for IC/OOC. You should simply ask yourself, could a non-RP misuse this information and go with that.

Excellent perspective and advice, I think I will bear this in mind.
For a long time I avoided any kind of RP forum or website related to EVE because I was familiar from my own experience of getting involved in modding communities for single player games, how my immersion was ruined and in the end I stopped enjoying playing the game and just got off on the modding challenges. Maintaining the IC/OOC divide is hard, as you say, even for single player RPG's if you aren't careful.
I was afraid the same thing might happen with EVE, but in the end I just got so bored with the fact that I was finding no RP opportunities I finally joined chatsubo.
But then from lurking there and IGS it seemed that the dangers (from an RP Immersion point of view) of getting involoved OOC, or even IC were just not worth it, even if tht did mean playing a solitary type.
Then I read the mission statement of this forum and thought, what the hell, I may as well say Hi!
More potentially to gain than to lose.
Your advice on the reality of the situation is lucid and helpful.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

An entertaining read at the very least.

All this talk of ic/ooc divides and srs biznss makes me wonder if there's still any room for fun and engaging interaction.   

[Rodj Blake]

If you don't want information you consider confidential about, don't give it away in any shape or form.

I avoid reading blogs. Why? Because people tend to write personal secrets in them. What if a fellow corp member writes on his blog that he is going to betray me. What should I do? I mean, obviously I should ignore this information IC, but my brain simply doesn't work that way, the very knowledge that the character is going to betray me will color his or her IC actions differently from that point on. I can honestly not tell anymore if I would have picked up some hints of betrayal IC without having read the blog, because the OOC info is affecting my vision. Just imagine watching the Sixth Sense for the first time after someone else has told you the clue. No matter how hard you try, your viewing of the movie will be very much affected by that knowledge.

Once you know Rosalund Shaw is a Jade alt, you simply cannot look at her anymore without bias. That means that if you want to keep your alt and connection secret as a player, you should take every effort to avoid having OOC about. Even if I wouldn't use a connection like an image on the same private server as IC evidence, realizing that is the image is on the same server OOC would still spoil my IC interaction with the character.

If you put info into an OOC channel, and that info can be linked to IC actions or motivations, you cannot use the OOC/IC divide as a shield anymore in a nonconsensual game of players with different standards for IC/OOC. You should simply ask yourself, could a non-RP misuse this information and go with that.

Good point, well made.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Off-topic posts removed. If there are posts that are off-topic, please report them rather than responding and saying 'this is off-topic'. This is also not the place for the airing of personal, OOC conflicts. I would suggest PMs, or another venue. [/mod]

[Jekaterine]

[mod]Hostile, flamebait,  strawman[/mod]

[Lillith Blackheart]

[mod]Responding to flamebait, attacking other player's point without constructive suggestion[/mod]

[Ciarente]

[mod]Thread locked, will remain locked. The tone of discussion has gone as far downhill as I'm prepared to let it. [/mod]