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Author Topic: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)  (Read 3604 times)

Kiro Kathora

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #15 on: 06 Jan 2013, 04:43 »

Besides, I prefer to keep things as 'historically realistic' as possible. Latin is a dead language, therefore making it, but that is just my humble opinion, unfit as a steppingstone for any future language in the first place, excépt as a source for loanwords and neologisms.

Well, Hebrew was a 'dead' language until in in the late 20th century Ivrit was developed as a continuation of biblical and mishnaic Hebrew. Also, how big a language community is might have little influence on whether it will be spoken on colonies, due to a founder effect. I think, though, that French just fits the Gallentean picture far better than ancient Greek.
Good point. However, I do think that the revival of old languages will not occur randomly with every possible speech. That this Hebrew intiative was succesful has partly to do with profound religious reasons, along with of course social ones. It is not unconceivable that things like this will happen in the distant future again with e.g. (Classic) Arab. Religion as a life-support system for dead languages aren't uncommon: Sanscrit, Summerian, Hebrew, Arab, Latin... This principle is particularly interesting for Amar(rad?)

On the other hand, languages are revived for reasons of cultural identity, like Cornish. Only time will tell whether this will be succesful, but I think succes at least for some part depends on: 1) having a territory, like a state or province with language borders, 2) having media, 3) having education and from there textual production. These infrastructures provide a stable ground for further develpment, and when lacking, I do wonder whether learning the language is still worth while.

The consequences of the lack of such a ground can be seen all around the world: Evenki in Russia, Ainu in Japan, Bask in Spain/France, you name it. Even Flemish Dutch in Belgium, although there the required 'infrastructure' has been built in the course of the 20th century (I keep it simple). Anyhow, as a further elaboration on this point: it is estimated that world wide there are about 6000 languages, but most of them are minorities and dying, and certainly will die in the next two centuries. At the same time we see globalization and the spread of liberal capitalistic democracy (or at least the first part) and a movement towards a mono-culture. In this, and this is nothing but a prediction, doesn't allow all those 6000 languages to exist. Think of the substrate effect described earlier. Even if they still exist, they will undergo changes. Speakers will probably 'absord' in the more prestigious language community (unless there are strong nationalistic and religious reasons). Reasoning forward from the mono-culture, the chance that colonies are founded by English, French and Chinese speaking people (which is not the same as actual English, French and Chinese) is quite large. The development of the European Union could allow German to play a large part in it as well.

But colonies aren't founded for no reason. Even if there were some Greek native speakers who founded a colony, then there is still a huge chance that lots of non-Greek migrate to it because of the advantages the colony has to offer (be it economy, living space...). And for reasons mentioned, 1000 Greeks cannot overcome 10.000 English or Chinese, especially not in a global-interstellar society in which English and Chinese are already dominant (because the migrants are thus part of a larger akin community, with schools, political entities etc.). It reminds me of the Afrikaners in Johannesburg after Transvaal became economically interesting: the influx of migrants was so big, that Afrikaans more or less disappeard from the scene, making Johannesburg an anglophone city.

Another reason for believing in just a handful of dominant languages is deliberate assimilation. Johannesburg turned Anglophone, therefore providing the English rulers in Cape Town with an excuse to declare war on the Boer republics and 'help' their fellow anglophones. In the '30's, the Germans occupied Austria, Bohemia and wester Poland partly because these regions were linguistically and culturally related.

Of course this doesn't rule out the possibility of a substrate effect the other way around: minorities may alter the dominant language on a colony too. E.g. Afrikaans has a slight influence on South-African English.

Anyhow, these are some ideas/theories of mine.

As possible substrates for some primordial form of Gallente we could think of German and English. We could also assume a scenario in which many Spanish speakers migrate to the early colonies from South-America for economical reasons, thus creating a Spanish substrate.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #16 on: 06 Jan 2013, 06:25 »

French only fits the Gallente culture due to the ideological revolutionnary aspects of it imo (which is already a good part of it but still).

But otherwise, the liberty/freedom and even ultra libertarianism usually put forward in the Gallente flavor is typically american (and quite opposed to the french culture), while the melting pot is of other inspirations as well. The Federation, for example, is the perfect counter example of what could be a french inspired governement, which has always favored a super strong and centralized power, and not a laissez faire federation of half independant lesser entities.

The french side of the Gallente fits more for the gallente sociocrat party than anything else, I think.

Also, I find that some gallente words sound almost more italian then french, sometimes.

Well, what I basically was trying to point out in my initial post above is that it is pretty much impossible to really find good traces of a real modern language after 18000 years of language change.

100% agreed, but that's not why people use French in the Gallente rp scene.  They use it because the game uses it a bit, because the Gallente are referenced as being descended from French colonists and because it's a convenient stand-in that identifies someone as playing in the Gallente pool.

I also think that's often seen as a fashion thing, much like IRL where french words are used here and there by english speakers. The Gallente have popularly turned into people that like to be dandy and use a lot of fashionable words (here, in french).

However yes, then we have the usual "Mr" turning into "Monsieur", "Yes" into "Oui", "Good day/Morning" into "Bonjour", etc. That's mostly used the same way people use "Saisa" when they want to introduce a bit of caldari napanii.

However as a native speaker, I also see too much of it from time to time, and that just sounds clunky. It sounds clumsy when people just simply try to translate a word here and there into french. Instead of just using the usual fashionable/dandy french words commonly used into english.

Edit : more on that last paragraph, it is best to keep in mind that the french language is nothing like english when it comes to be flexible and highly adaptable to the different cultures that use it.  Actually, it is quite the contrary for french, which is a super rigid language still under the scrutiny of the Académie Française which keeps a tight grip over the language and translates a lot of new words every year for example. It can also be seen in the accent, where french speaking foreigners are often difficult to understand for the average french due that. This is mostly why, I think, where you can get a lot of leeway when dealing with english in my experience, it is not so easy with french.
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2013, 06:34 by Lyn Farel »
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Kiro Kathora

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #17 on: 06 Jan 2013, 06:53 »

Some additional thoughts for my intial post:

  • To let the language fit in its fictional context properly, I would like to suggest that the vocabulary has a great deal of loanwords from other fictional languages. After all, we are dealing with a federation, and with a media culture.
  • With 1 in mind, I think it is best to keep Gallente phonology fairly simple. That is, the phonemes included should be mainly of the class that is primary (to be found in most languages), like [a], [ o ], [p] and [m]. Phonemes like [ɛi], [ø], [y] and [R] (not [r]) are secondary (or relatively rare). Even if Gallente has some of them, they are still very likely to disappear in Gallente of second-language speakers. It's a bit like Brittish versus American English. The latter is phonologically way easier to pronounce, and when I look around in the Netherlands, most people prefer that pronunciation (and even if they don't, they often still sound like it).
Eventually this point would make the language more accessible and readible for most people too.[/list]

Primary:
1.   [ i ]   5.   [ u ]
2.   [e]   6.   [ o ]
3.   [ɛ]   7.   [ɔ]
4.   [a]   8.   [ɒ]
Secundary:
5.   [y]   9.   [ɯ]
6.   [ø]   10.   [ɣ]
7.   [ɶ]   11.   [ʌ]
8.   [a]   12.   [ɑ]
(Based on typological research.)


French only fits the Gallente culture due to the ideological revolutionnary aspects of it imo (which is already a good part of it but still).

But otherwise, the liberty/freedom and even ultra libertarianism usually put forward in the Gallente flavor is typically american (and quite opposed to the french culture), while the melting pot is of other inspirations as well. The Federation, for example, is the perfect counter example of what could be a french inspired governement, which has always favored a super strong and centralized power, and not a laissez faire federation of half independant lesser entities.
The french side of the Gallente fits more for the gallente sociocrat party than anything else, I think.
I like this thinking. Agreed. Perhaps we can mould a certain amount of ideologies into linguistic shape by introducing certain words and concepts. In some future setting, a French colony may be havily influenced by American ideology, thereby using American loanwords. Just an idea.

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Mithfindel

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #18 on: 06 Jan 2013, 06:56 »

Also, I find that some gallente words sound almost more italian then french, sometimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_language
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #19 on: 06 Jan 2013, 07:24 »

That could be an idea, though keeping just an American flavor would only restrain the lore imho. The Federation is more than that, and the huge "all our different and various cultures are all buddies and living together" is not really american to my eyes. There is something more, maybe EU-like, but not only.

It is in any way difficult to perfectly picture what it would look like since we are speaking about an upper layer that simply does not exist IRL : the layers above planets, the layers of an interstellar entity. It is also where RL parallels stop working, they are good for inspiration, but they do not suffice in themselves.

Also, I find that some gallente words sound almost more italian then french, sometimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_language

Yes, and I may be wrong but I think that Italian is probably the closest national language to french. A lot more than spanish.
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2013, 07:26 by Lyn Farel »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #20 on: 06 Jan 2013, 07:30 »

Yes, and I may be wrong but I think that Italian is probably the closest national language to french. A lot more than spanish.
They have a lexical similarity of 89%, which basically makes them dialects.

Kiro Kathora

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #21 on: 06 Jan 2013, 07:34 »

Naturally. In the end, a language is nothing but a dialect with its own army (I forgot the person's name, who said this). And on a dialectical level there are no borders between related 'languages' at all. There is only a continuum.
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Kiro Kathora

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #22 on: 06 Jan 2013, 07:40 »

The Federation is more than that, and the huge "all our different and various cultures are all buddies and living together" is not really american to my eyes. There is something more, maybe EU-like, but not only.
It's Dutch. Lol, not. No, seriously, actually it's nothing. Not a single nation réálly has that principle. Repressive tolerance and scepticism is everywhere. Even in France, the credo of egalité etc. lead to the repression of other languages within France, because everyone should speak one language, thus creating one entity.
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"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Jev North

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Re: Some Thoughts on Creating a Language (Gallente)
« Reply #23 on: 06 Jan 2013, 07:41 »

Naturally. In the end, a language is nothing but a dialect with its own army (I forgot the person's name, who said this). And on a dialectical level there are no borders between related 'languages' at all. There is only a continuum.

Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy
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