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[Saikoyu]

So, in The Virgins of St. Junip thread, people got started talking about the number of criminals in the Amarrian Empire, which started me wondering about if it was reasonable to expect that such a massive number of people would be enslaved for being criminals.  So, I looked at the ratio of criminals (in prison) to the population in the US.  I know, EVE isn't the real world, should not draw parallels, but I have to start somewhere.  The number I got after a bit of looking was one percent, which is apparently abnormally large compared to other countries. 

So, assuming that people in EvE are reletively the same as people in the US in reguards to criminal acts, I don't think that you could claim a significant part of the slave population were criminal.  However, the Amarrians seem to believe in generational slavery for Minmatar.  If this was also the case for enslaving criminals, then it could be that a significant portion of the slave population would be enslaved for criminal behavior, but of their ancestors (which reminds me of an episode of the old Battlestar Galactica and "Starbucking", but thats away from the point).

So what do you all think?

[Arkady Sadik]

Note: I'm a participant of that thread so I'm likely biased.

Very few of the sources about Amarrian I read talk about slavery for crimes. Instead, the main idea of slavery seems to center around the basic tenet that what others call slavery is in fact one step on a spiritual path towards fully embracing [the Amarrian] faith. Even more so [t]he nations [the Amarr] conquered were enslaved, a practice justified by their religion and [e]ver since, the Amarrians have enslaved every nation and race they have encountered, and today slavery is an essential part of Amarr society - all phrases that seem to indicate that slavery is not primarily a tool for punishment of criminals, but a tool for sbjugation of conquered enemies. It would be weird if slavery was not also a punishment for crime in the Empire, but I don't think current PF supports that the majority of slaves - or even anything close to that - would be criminals.

All quotes from here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr

[Arkady Sadik]

And because it came up in that thread:

I have no effing clue what CCP was thinking with the 9th generation thing.

It's a pretty nice storyline and it puts the Minmatar under some pressure to explain their continued actions - but considering it had no effect whatsoever on the remaining PF and in-game actions, it just does not make any sense.

The numbers we have for the freed people ("several hundred million", "600 to 700 million") do not sound like it would be a majority of the slave population at all (earth has more people than that, and I doubt planets in EVE are all much less populated than earth). There has been no major impact on the Empire's economy, the Empire's backstory, or the Republic's politics. So I don't see how this could have been a majority of the slave population. Sadly, there has also been no explanation on how this came to pass.

Basically, it doesn't make sense, and whatever we claim ICly could be wrong - and it's something that our characters likely should be able to just look up, at least for a few rough estimated. :-(

[Lyn Farel]

Definitly not the majority. Just a part of it.

Enslavement for crimes is definitly not the main objet of slavery. But we know that Holders and other people are enslaved along with their families (or executed while their families enslaved, or other variations of that), so it exists. Especially when you know that everything in Amarr is centered around the enslavement for "the atonement and enlightement", which fits perfectly well with criminals.

[Arkady Sadik]

Enslavement for crimes is definitly not the main objet of slavery. But we know that Holders and other people are enslaved along with their families (or executed while their families enslaved, or other variations of that), so it exists.

Oh, right! The few that retreated would later be executed for cowardice, their families enslaved and their Houses disbanded, source The Battle of Vak'Atioth Chronicle. Thanks.

I'll start a thread on the general confused state of the Amarr PF not to derail this one.

[Esna Pitoojee]

When discussing criminals in the context of the Amarr Empire, one must remember that not just the convicted and their immediate family would be enslaved, but also a large portion of the extended family; a conviction of a commoner might add five to ten slaves, while the dissolution of a Holder's family could potentially add up to hundreds of slaves. Furthermore, their definition of a "crime" is far, far wider than any modern definition, and it's been more than once hinted that the justice system is quite heavily wrapped up in the political system as well.

[Jekaterine]

I'd think the Amarr would be loathe to make a slave of other Amarr unless it's the most grievous of crimes.

I base this on the belief that the Amarr are Gods chosen people and slavery is intended to lead to enlightenment.
Amarrians are thus by virtue of blood already blessed and then to revoke Gods own blessing by stripping the individual of it can't be an easy thing to undertake.
Add to this that the crime will lead to repercussions for the family due to the way Amarr society is built up.

I think that the stigma of being a criminal is less than being spiritually corrupt and that a family would rather have someone locked behind bars than stripped of their birthright as a chosen of God.
In many cases I'm sure there are scapegoats handed up due to realpolitik accused of witchery and all sorts that have corrupted the Amarrian leading to the crime, this in order to protect the status quo and also keep up the facade of Amarrians being infallible due to their race.

This is an interesting question and I'll give it some more thought.

[Mithfindel]

Fait Accompli (chron) has a former Holder who is a slave of one of his former rivals. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fait_accompli_%28Chronicle%29) Also Holders being cloned.

[lallara zhuul]

The Book of Names.

Basically if your name is not there, it's roughly the same as being excommunicated by the Church in the Dark Ages.
You cannot own anything, anything that you have owned can be taken without repercussions by anyone that still has their name in the Book of Names.

Including you.