Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 11 Aug 2010, 04:43
-
I've always wondered what the exact writing systems of each factions were...though I have rough guesses...in Chasing Shadows and the Science of Never Again, French is overtly used, so it's safe to assume that Gallentean dialects thus would be Latin-based...
From the Napaani Primer, I do like those alien characters, which can sort of be seen in the art work for The Mercenaries part 1.
Now, what I was going to propose was to see if anyone who is artistically inclined could redo the Gallentean/Caldari NPC corp logos in their original writing systems...even if Caldari might have foreign, non-Latin characters, a lot of their logos are Latin based, even the Caldari State emblem, which is a backwards C...CBD corporation, Echelon Entertainment, NOH etc. Of course, these might not actually be what they are PF-wise, and maybe the backwards C has nothing to do with the actual English word "Caldari"...
Still though, would be cool to see, say, the Ishukone logo with the Napaani characters. As for others, the Intaki language has been canonized by players as to use Sanskrit and Hindi characters, so perhaps Jin-Mei would be Hanzi based as well?
I'm stumped regarding Amarrian and Minmatar though...and don't take this as another "faction = RL culture"...just talking about writing systems exclusively :P
-
Well, it states that the Amarrians were originally an offshoot of the catholic church, therefore their language may also be Latin based. The Matari... that's tough... I imagine that the different tribes have various sub dialects but perhaps a Germanic/Pacific blend?
-
Taking a look at Minmatar 'culture' and some of the hints and bits we find in-game, there's many references to Obelisks, to Norse mythology, some african-style nomadic concepts and so on. Personally, I consider their culture while knocked out of the skies and re-developing after the Eve Gate thingymakablooey to have largely been a blend of Norse medieval style tribes, clans and such with the runes and all the fun bits that come with that. Toss in some germanic/anglosaxon Ye Olde stuff with obelisks and such, with a bit of african tribal culture and you have a very interesting blend of some of the most dangerous, yet culturally interesting parts of human history.
Now, as a faction, they seem to have managed to retain much of that while rising into their current status as a full-fledged faction. The inherent conflicts between the cultures in question seem to have realistically both bound them tighter while keeping them somewhat apart.
So as for writing styles, I would go ahead and say there's quite a bit of an oral tradition (common to tribal communities), artlike writing/scripture styles through runes and such along with powerful symbolism inherited from their ancestral culture. It would have to be up to each player to decide whether it would be a 'universal' Matari hodgepodge style of writing or some very distinct and separate styles between clans, tribes, bloodlines and so on.
Personally, I'm going with runic style lettering and widespread use of symbols that can have many meanings depending on context. And the same goes for many words, changing definitions depending on context, while retaining one core definition. Take the description of the Loki as an example.
-
Or they are entirely new writing systems and we see the translations/formats as players.
We are talking about civilizations with thousands of years of de-evolution and then evolution and development, there are 8100 years between Gate collapse and the emergence of the civilizations that form the basis of the game civilizations in New Eden.
To suppose that any Terran writing system survives for the next 14,000 years is scary.
-
In Signs of Faith there is writing on the "blackboard" that closely resembles arabic script.
And there is the practically (thankfully) retconned example of greek symbols on the old Bestower model.
-
Or they are entirely new writing systems and we see the translations/formats as players.
We are talking about civilizations with thousands of years of de-evolution and then evolution and development, there are 8100 years between Gate collapse and the emergence of the civilizations that form the basis of the game civilizations in New Eden.
To suppose that any Terran writing system survives for the next 14,000 years is scary.
Consider instead that they're starting with a clean slate, but we do have indications that they had similarities to our own real life historic cultures. While any of the writing systems of our world would most certainly not survive... isn't is feasible that similar ones would be arrived at through their own development?
-
There are only so many practical ways of writing stuff down. Not he symbols themselves, but how you arrange them and how much of a word they represent. I would think it likely that the symbols themselves are different, but the methods in arranging them and the grammar etc. probably have RL analogs to some degree.
It also seems quite possible that each empire is home to multiple languages, at least unless there have been programs to suppress all 'non-official' languages (and maybe even if there have been such programs). I think (barring aforementioned programs) it seems likely the Caldari have the fewest (assuming a global language on Caldari prime pre-diaspora and only a single language for the Achura, which actually seems a bit unlikely).
I couldn't begin to speculate about the Minmatar, as they may have one common language, or they might have a smattering of tribal languages and local Amarr dialects from large concentrations of freed slaves who come from the same areas.
It is interesting - I wonder if ex-slaves would have mostly learned an Amarr alphabet and construction of words, even if they also speak a 'Minmatar' language.
-
It is interesting - I wonder if ex-slaves would have mostly learned an Amarr alphabet and construction of words, even if they also speak a 'Minmatar' language.
Different PF/Stories/Missions indicate different things there. Some indicates that Matari live in pretty much Matari societies as slaves. Well, Amarr societies, but populated largely by Matari. Or filthy Ammatar traitor scum, depending on your views and the availability of Khuumaks in/near said settlements. I would think they'd retain Matari language and so on, while also learning the Amarr ways and languages. Of course, if the slave society in question is isolated enough and don't get enough 'new blood', chances are there'll be an evolving language with new dialects and such.
Interesting concept really. How much of Matari culture can persist in such a community under Amarr rule?
Can't take any chances. Time to bomb the slavetowns from orbit. Only way to be sure they're freed.
*nodnods*
-
Can't take any chances. Time to bomb the slavetowns from orbit. Only way to be sure they're freed.
*nodnods*
*giggles* Sounds about right. One member of Du'uma used to RP a brutor who spoke Amarrian and would still occasionally slip and use Amarrian idioms because he was a freed slave. He was a very interesting character. I hope he eventually comes back, but real life forced him inactive.
I would argue after this many generations that the slaves in most slavetowns don't know Matari anymore, or only know very few words, like maybe the words for "mom" "dad" and such - what we might learn in a weekend crash course on a second language.
-
I don't quite agree, Zu. There's additions to the slavecamps to consider. Do you think there's not an influx of new slaves in the Empire as well as the ones born and bred there? I think that influx should be enough to retain the language and some of the culture, passed down from generation to generation and reinforced by 'fresh blood' from the outside.
-
It's worth keeping in mind that the Minmatar were far more advanced than any race the Amarr had subdued before. The Ealureans were primitive, and the Ni-Kunni did hardly object to joining the Empire. The Minmatar were a space-faring multi-stellar race, probably with decent education for its populace and widespread knowledge of culture, not to mention a significant size of population.
While the Amarr would certainly have discouraged allowing slaves to communicate in their simple tongues, it would have been incredibly difficult to enforce - especially if large populations of Minmatar weren't split up and kept under limited supervision. The Amarr were used to working with Ealureans and Ni-Kunni slaves, who tended to be easily-led, and colonial ventures in the new regions of the Empire may have allowed Minmatar to keep to their own as a way to ensure peace, as security and slave handlers are expensive things.
This considered however, it's important to note that the Minmatar were enslaved for 700+ years. I can hardly read texts from the 1300's, and none of the languages I read were solely maintained by small cliques of tribal units kept in slavery by an oppressive foreign regime between then and now. The Minmatar language of today, while based and re-based on ancient ancestral tongues, would be so far removed from the original as to be nearly impossible to recognize. It would be saturated with words and quirks of Amarrish for sure, and the long period of isolation would probably have seen the different tribal tongues deviate immensely from each other as well.
Either way, I think you can see some Minmatar lettering at the entrance to the bar in the Walking in Stations demo from 2008. :)
-
Personally, I'm going with runic style lettering and widespread use of symbols that can have many meanings depending on context. And the same goes for many words, changing definitions depending on context, while retaining one core definition. Take the description of the Loki as an example.
Runes are good for carving in stone, or on strips of wood (no really, split a branch lengthwise and carve down the flat bits - that's why there's usually few curves (if any) and few horizontal lines, since horizontal lines disappear into the grain.
And look at the modern scandinavian countries, like say, Iceland. They use roman letters (with additions) and have done since not long after they started using paper a lot. I would be surprised to see Matari using a runic language.
I wouldn't however, be surprised if the current Matari script was based on letters used by the Gallente, even if they are used slightly differently. I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a fair bit of usage of Amarrian script (whatever that is) likewise modified for the Matari languages. It's also possible it's based on some sort of icon-based system that's easily displayed by computer screens - I mean, they've had computers for a thousand years at this point, right?
There's a possibility of survival of Matari script from before the day of darkness, but if it exists, I suspect that's mostly used by the Cultural Reclaimation groups.
-
I think its probably fair to say that their might be many different versions of Matari lettering out there. Each might have survived in various places, and passed through different ways. Some might be descendants of traditional Matari lettering, passed on in secret. Others could be secret marks, taught by slaves to mark secret routes or messages that they didnt want their overseers to read. Each could have developed completely independently of each other, or take widely divergent paths.
-
Simple.
All the Empires have their own official alphabets and official languages.
There is probably an official ones for CONCORD as well.
Dialects according to a locality.
People tend to forget the fact that there has been serious cultural homogenization within each empire before they became space faring. That usually means that there is a standardized language that is taught in the schools of the nation/empire/faction.
School system determines which language is the most dominant one in a nation.
A secret Minnie dialect will survive only in the ranks of the uneducated slaves, while if you have generation upon generation slaves being taught to use a language in their day to day use, then in 20-50 generations the original language will disappear.
Of course there will be pockets of the original language somewhere, but even in two or three generations you can do irreversible damage to it via the school system.
Ask the Sami people, or the Irish Gaelic.
-
Ask the Sami people, or the Irish Gaelic.
Can't speak for the Gaelic, but I have intimate knowledge of the Sami. I can say with one hundred percent certainty that the language is thriving. It's in fact so annoyingly thriving that it's almost bloody impossible to be a god damn ambulance worker in those areas, as communication is utterly impossible through half the damned population refusing to learn Norwegian.
Yeah yeah, it's cultural pride and all that crap, but if you want the Norwegian government to provide Norwegian public services, then don't come babbling in that damned monkeylanguage when I'm trying to keep you from dying you ignorant bloody halfwit! Grargh!
Seriously... one tries to be openminded and respectful, but there's cultural pride and then there's stupid, ignorant arrogance.
/derail 0
-
I'm not sure about the source, but as far as I understand, it has been silently retconned that all Minmatar were not caught by the Amarr. The timeline mentioned that on the Day of Darkness the Amarr conquered only Matar and for some unknown reason left other planets and systems alone. It is worth to remember that despite unable to bridge the gap into new systems, the Matari were very advanced before the Amarr came - they even had achieved a global state before the Amarr had conquered the whole of Athra.
I do dislike the current revision of the Day of Darkness, but the spirit makes sense - that the Amarr conquered only the main settlements of the Minmatar, and while they were taking over the rest, the Minmatar managed to capture, reverse engineer or invent a working warp drive. This means that while most were eventually enslaved, some Minmatar managed to struggle on the outskirts of civilization. Where "some" reads "millions", considering the scale of EVE. The Amarr took over them as they went, and the Minmatar were likely pushing deeper and deeper into cosmos - most colonized planets, though this may have also given birth to the Thukker way of life. This is likely made more possible by the fact that, in my opinion, Amarr fleets were likely built mainly to support capturing worlds and supporting ground warfare, not to hold space superiority (and thus, the Minmatar could keep a guerrilla running in hard-to-reach colonies as their blockade runners could outrun the Amarr). The Amarr answer, at first, was cruisers. Only later they started making frigates (with the Impairor being one of the first tries of a "modern" small spaceship).
As a conclusion, while the majority of the Minmatar were ruled either directly by the Amarr or by Nefantar collaborators, some were never slaves. It may be that some "peaceful" worlds with light Amarr presence even had clandestine dealings with the rebels. However, this would have been rare, as while there may have been millions of rebels at any given time, there were billions of enslaved or collaborating Minmatar, and thus the effect of the Minmatar resistance was minimal - until they made contact with the Gallente Federation.
-
I'm not sure about the source, but as far as I understand, it has been silently retconned that all Minmatar were not caught by the Amarr.
Interesting. If anyone knows where that comes from, I'd really appreciate a link.
I've been sort of playing that a lot of the Matari culture stuff is based on corrupted, half-forgotten, much-repeated, changed and recovered, just plain invented stuff that the cultural reclaimers are trying to pretend is part of an unbroken chain, but is mostly about forming a cultural glue to try to make the Matari more of a unified people. I'm not sure that wouldn't still be likely if some Matari had managed to avoid slavery.
Back to script, I wonder what English script will look like after a thousand years of computers... the time scales in Eve, and indeed the population numbers, are much greater than we have examples for in our real world, and yet our world has enormous variety and diversity. I wouldn't be surprised to see each long term settled world having subtly different language and script even if nominally in the same culture/language group of their particular area.
I suspect the biggest influence will be the companies who were making computer displays/word processors in the last few hundred years, and the scripts their graphic designers chose.
I bet the Federation standard script includes emoticons. :D
-
From the EVE timeline:
AD 22480
The Amarr escalate their slave raids into a war of conquest against the Minmatar, invade and conquer Matar, leave other worlds alone for the time being
AD 23180
First contact between Gallente and Amarr
AD 23210
The Gallente and the Amarr reach the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement of 23210.
AD 23216
The Amarr conquer the Eanna planet in the Hror system.
The Amarr-Jove war takes place, in which the Amarr are crushed.
The Minmatar Rebellion takes place
Planet Eanna is mentioned because it's mentioned in Theodicy. I might be jumping wildly into conclusions, but the order of things seems to indicate to me that the scenario I suggested might be possible. (Also, in the Theodicy, Amarr were mentioned taking systems at a pace that was alarming to the Gallente - but that fails to explain what the hell they did with the almost 800 years they had since taking Matar, so that'd likely need to be stretched over a longer time frame, say system a year or so. That'd still be 36 systems taken since Gallente contact, something that would've been very worrying to the early Federation which was not as big as it is now.)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline)