Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Oct 2018, 20:03
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Trying to catch up on the goings on for the Blooder crazy-gas and the Kingdom security forces going totally, well, "Khanid Kingdom security forces" on the civilian population.
Looks like a lot of neat goings on, sounds like a cool series of things happening. Yay space folks :)
I wish the Knights of Khanid were still around, we'd have such a ball with this one getting all puffy trying to keep the humanitarian aid out, maybe arguing with PIE to stay out as well :P
Hope yall are having fun :)
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We are indeed.
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Grr Khanids.
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I've learned more about cloaking devices and sneaky warp tricks in one week of this then I've learned in four months of faction warfare.
Grrr Khanids. Grrr Amarr. Grr blooders.
Grrr everybody.
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It's interesting to compare the responses to this, with the things that happened during incursions:
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1454.0
https://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1425167
Back then, the reaction by several of the RP community was a "you are doing it wrong". They did not believe capsuleers had access to "legions of ground troops".
Zoom, nearly 8 years later, and some of those critics are now going whole hog on the idea of deploying ground troops to planets.
So, what, if anything, has changed ? Is it just the level of responsiveness to such assertions by CCP ?
Where, if anywhere, is the limit of plausibility now ?
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Honestly, still not fond of it. I originally just moved some freedom fighters, viral weapons and armaments to Chakaid's home system with the intent of mostly just having it vague and private. Just an in-game representation of Miz occasionally having some influence on the Network, providing them with some funding, logistics etc. This grew a bit out of control when certain CCP folk were told and subsequently news articled that apparently Miz, Samira and freedom fighters in general find it a lovely trade to throw dozens of lives away to successfully sneeze on a clone vat.
This changed the rules. For the worse. They're no longer clear and they've opened up for significant abuse and unequal treatment by CCP/ISD etc. Now we can apparently do things that frankly open up some serious cans of worms, because we have no clear limitations on it nor a way to measure the effect reliably compared to effort/isk put into it, etc etc.
So x amount of Freedom Fighters and y amount of armaments and viral bombs got z result. Now, what happens if I empty a few freighters' worth of the same? It's well within my financial and in-game capabilities to do this. What happens if I do it in Amarr? What happens if someone does it in Pator? Etc etc. The rules have gone out the window and it's now all in the very subjective hands of a particular CCP employee, and there's absolutely no fucking way he is capable of responding equally to different such player initiatives. It'll get biased, it'll get unbalanced, and it'll be massive plotholin' going on.
... but he did change the rules the first time he did it. The precedent has been set. You can't really go back from that, and as I said before when the subject of dumping marines or whatever in cargobays came up: If it was possible, Miz would be dumping millions in Amarr etc. Fortunately, the news articles have kept certain things vague, thank fuck. The numbers, the effects, the actual mechanics of what's going on are somewhat obscure and this allows for limitations to be in place.
Several Minmatar capsuleers, including Mizhara Del'thul and Teinyhr, have publicly claimed responsibility for deploying operatives to the system.
It is unclear just how many ships have made it through. Imperial news outlets are denying that any unauthorized craft have survived, but reports from the surface have suggested several ships of Minmatar and SOE design were successfully able to penetrate aerial defenses.
Here for instance, there's even the deniability built-in. There's not even confirmation that it ever worked in the first place. Just indications. There's even some denying it worked at all. Fantastic. This keeps things where it can be limited or even removed. It still lives in that actually viable headspace of "this is primarily baseliner organizations doing things, and getting some capsuleer support in the limited ways capsuleers CAN support them." rather than "capsuleers can now wage entire baseliner wars with their private ISK Market Armies."
If it wasn't, you'd now have to take for instance Vlad's ridiculous edgelord over the top bullshit post seriously.
I wish they hadn't changed the rules on this. It's too vague, too unclear, too open for abuse and it severely changes things In Character to the point where you have to be doing these things because it'd make no sense at all NOT to since it's apparently entirely possible. I just hope that particular dev pulls back a bit and sets some very conservative rules in place about just how much of an effect capsuleers can have there, because otherwise there's really not much stopping a few wealthy of us from just dumping huge freighterloads of armies around the place.
I'm sure the problems inherent with that should be readily apparent to anyone.
... for now though, as he did change the rules, we just have to play under the ruleset as it now is, or we'll not be 'competitive' as it were. The Queen now has a machinegun in chess. Gotta adapt and hope either that rule gets reversed, or balanced.
Edited to add: Not that I want to shit on his willingness to respond to player activities. This is a step in the right direction and it massively adds to Eve as a whole. It's a great initiative etc. It's just... that step was a REALLY BIG step and it kind of landed in a mire, and now we need to figure out a way to get that boot out of there before it's swallowed up and everything goes horribly wrong.
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I dunno if it's a change to the rules, just a thing that 'only works when a DM (CCP) is in charge'. I mean, there was that bit about 'sending a camera drone through a sansha wormhole', or loading up a freighter with explosives and self-destructing it next to Catiz's Avatar and that being reported in the news articles as having done real damage to the vessel.
It's just, like I said, CCP are the DMs. Only they really get to decide when something is and isn't successful. The rest of us can do a bit between ourselves when there's some consent involved, but there's no way we can really expect anyone else to accept it.
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Well, there's issues with that, though. This isn't a tabletop session between friends. It's not cooperative. This is competitive storytelling, with invested enemies on different sides. Consider that PIE are currently siding with the Khanid, as loyalists are wont to do as long as the Kingdom is of the Empire. When the rules suddenly allow for doing things that aren't mechanically balanced through gameplay mechanics, it shifts the playing field. Suddenly things can become uphill for one side or the other, through no fault of their own.
A DM is a fantastic tool/mechanism to use when you're in a cooperative story, because they can then balance out everything for both the story and player satisfaction to go smoothly ahead. Now imagine two parties (or more!) going up against each other and not relying on set rules but DM judgment? That goes sideways fast, because said DM is going to have biases, no two ways around that, and even if they weren't they're prone to fucking up and making mistakes and one side or the other will be given unfair treatment.
Equal rules and level playing fields are VITAL in any competitive play, even if it's just in RP. Vague rules or some players getting different judgment calls than others... well, that's just a recipe for disaster.
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I haven't been able to 'keep up' so I'm just seeing some of the baseliner references from the DM, it read well and was left ambiguous, I really liked how that was handled.
I think as Samira said, a lot of this "baseliner/rp" stuff works quite well, in small does, with a DM in charge, and no one going over-the-top, and things staying relatively 'small scale.' One planet, one arc, not major NPCs, etc
We indeed used to argue endlessly about 'mutual' RP when it came to unverifiable baseliner stuff, and basically as long as everyone was involved was ok with what was going on and it wasn't too cringe or IP-breaking, sure!
So I'm not up on the play by play but from what I've seen it's been a surprisingly active ISD doing this one.
I mean, shit, we would have -killed- for this level of interaction and news posts with the NPCs for fucking years we spent screaming into the void with little coming back :P
Enjoy it, the spotlight doesn't shine on you or your factions that often, have fun with your time in the sun before it moves on to the other side of the cluster and factions.
But anyway looks like a fun arc, well done to everyone involved spending time and energy on this one.
Incidentally does anyone know who is on Mercury/ISD these days? If they are still doing the NDA 'we don't talk about fight club' and they are reading this, hit me up PM please, wanted to talk about some thangs :P
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It's interesting to compare the responses to this, with the things that happened during incursions:
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1454.0
https://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1425167
Back then, the reaction by several of the RP community was a "you are doing it wrong". They did not believe capsuleers had access to "legions of ground troops".
Zoom, nearly 8 years later, and some of those critics are now going whole hog on the idea of deploying ground troops to planets.
So, what, if anything, has changed ? Is it just the level of responsiveness to such assertions by CCP ?
Where, if anywhere, is the limit of plausibility now ?
Wow that was a trip down memory lane, yay Kingdom loyal Silas. Reading that thread I think I was trying to nudge nudge wink wink people to walk the walk if they were talking the talk. If they were claiming all sorts of ground troops and weapons, then do your best to show this -in game- with commodities and items that can be used towards that point, within reason.
This way you don't get a week old capsuleer saying they landed 10,000 troops, and if a corporation is spending real ISK on 'troops' you can show the receipts as a representation of dedication of in game assets toward the RP. More chances for SHIPS IN SPACE to be moving items, shot at, money changing hands, in game things.
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Incidentally does anyone know who is on Mercury/ISD these days? If they are still doing the NDA 'we don't talk about fight club' and they are reading this, hit me up PM please, wanted to talk about some thangs :P
If you want to talk to someone from ISD, log in and send a mail to ISD Thalack Dalhar.
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Well, there's issues with that, though. This isn't a tabletop session between friends. It's not cooperative. This is competitive storytelling, with invested enemies on different sides.
I'd argue it's collaborative. Antagonistic improv is a viable way to tell a story, just look at pro wrestling. ;)
I mean, shit, we would have -killed- for this level of interaction and news posts with the NPCs for fucking years we spent screaming into the void with little coming back :P
Seriously.
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Pro-wrestling is scripted ahead of time. This is an actual competitive game. There's measurable metrics of success, and just because we RP we can't really get away from that inherent feature of Eve. I honestly feel we shouldn't get away from that, because frankly the RP gets massively better when you have to actually back it up a bit and actually play the game successfully to succeed properly.
... well, theoretically, some people don't have to or so it seems.
Anyway, I'm not complaining about this level of responsiveness from them. It's great. I'm just perpetually wary and leery of things that tilts the playing field, because Eve more than any other MMO and RPG requires investment of time, effort and even money. Success or failure should not come about due to uneven conditions.
Which is what vague rules, fuzzy metrics and inherent biases in Devs will lead to.
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It seems like this arc is pretty low stakes/planet oriented right now, though? I mean we are mostly talking about 'fluff' consequences right? I know it's hard for RPers to not get worked up about 'winning' and 'losing' sometimes but this seems like the right scale of arc to not be a biggie either way?
I mean in comparison old School Mercury/ISD used to actually just set up RP events for a group and not tell the group they spoke with their IC enemies, like hey RPers here's a fun event and then secretly talk to pirates or loyalists and tell them when and where to ambush the RP event. It was fun, people got shot, people got blown up, good times for all.
I think that would be almost impossible now without someone losing their mind about favoritism and the like.
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Well the scales doesn't really matter in that regard. The consequences this time might not be too high, but the precedent has been set. Something is now canonically within capsuleer powers to do. Think it won't be pulled out when the stakes are higher? Worse, what happens when the stakes are higher and then suddenly this capability is suddenly ignored. "But it worked when X and Y did it!" "Yeh but... no, not this time." "Favoritism!" etc.
Is it really this controversial or difficult to simply want to keep the rules clear and playing field level?
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Y'all ought to be getting -10 standing to the Khanid Kingdom and all the Khanid corporations.
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Undoubtedly.
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I think this is something of an experiment to see how far they can go with this. Something bad/unfair may very well happen, but hopefully they will learn where the bounds for future events may be placed and we can keep going down this path. That does mean that there will be winners and losers, and it may not always be fair. But the options are to either accept a bit of that, or not be able to play on this level at all, as we have been for a decade.
I think Silas is right. Let's enjoy it, push the bounds and try to have fun without getting butthurt at any mistakes made unless extremely eggregious. Hopefully the efforts won't get scrapped again and the dark ages of 0 dev acknowledgement returns.
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Thank you all for explaining what has been going on and that there is a modicum of 'official restraint' involved in the storyline. I was beginning to worry that Diana Kim would soon be landing a million mercenaries in Crystal Boulevard.
The story arc is very interesting and thank you all who have been so instrumental in telling it.
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Rules is good and important. I think everyone is enjoying this, and I think everyone understands: Don't stop it, but as we move forward, balance things out to make sure there aren't issues of unfairness.
Yeah?
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Basically, yeah. Like I said, great initiative and all... let's just try and keep the playing field level, and the rules clear.
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https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/republic-and-federation-condemn-kahah-massacres-threaten-sanctions-or-worse/
"also noting long-standing "indications" of Khanid-Blood Raider ties."
MY WORK HERE IS DONE
:D :D :D :D
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Incidentally does anyone know who is on Mercury/ISD these days? If they are still doing the NDA 'we don't talk about fight club' and they are reading this, hit me up PM please, wanted to talk about some thangs :P
If you want to talk to someone from ISD, log in and send a mail to ISD Thalack Dalhar.
You can't do evemail via web client anymore? Any way around this without reinstalling the client?
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You can't do evemail via web client anymore? Any way around this without reinstalling the client?
CCP had (has?) an Eve mobile app which allows you to login to your account. Unless it's changed, you can send and receive mail through that.
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It exists and works just fine.
For Android anyway.
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Y'all ought to be getting -10 standing to the Khanid Kingdom and all the Khanid corporations.
Well I frelling hope so.
And reading this thread just now and not days ago got me thinking I perhaps got a bit carried away especially with the holoreel thing (it was one of those "felt like a good idea at the time" things), but from the start I tried to keep my stuff fairly vague and let CCP decide how, if in any way, they want to react.
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Uhh is there some trick to the android ap to actually mail people? I keep getting 'please fill in all fields' trying to write people. Is there some trick to listing mail recipients? This is a ridiculous question sorry folks. I miss evegate :(
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Off topic instructions:
[spoiler]Uhh is there some trick to the android ap to actually mail people? I keep getting 'please fill in all fields' trying to write people. Is there some trick to listing mail recipients? This is a ridiculous question sorry folks. I miss evegate :(
In the 'To...' field I would type some portion of Silas Vitalia and then select the search key (bottom right magnifying glass on my kbd). Then I'd get a list of Silas Vitalias to choose from, and clicking one adds their name as a recipient. Repeat process for each recipient and the search isn't uh foolproof either.[/spoiler]
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Where, if anywhere, is the limit of plausibility now ?
Can't comment on the incursion stuff because I think I wasn't too active around then, and the whole topic you linked was all news to me.
Well, I remember getting flak about "just text RP" before, so I took it to heart and actually brought in-game items to where I said I had stuff happen, with "photographic evidence."
So, limit of plausibility, I guess, would be in what you can show in-game. If someone has the game money and the time to gather up 100,000 soldiers and means to ferry them all into a system, then I think they should be given some acknowledgement for that.
In lieu of that, if you really want to wage war, well, you're going to have a hard time if all you have are ground troops, and no in-game items I think exist for example for air-superiority fighters, ground support vehicles etc.
That is what I had in mind when I made my claims, what is plausible? A thousand well trained mercs fighting guerilla warfare across an entire star system (not all of them are in Kahah III) sounded in my mind very feasible. Since the number is also so small, I figured it wouldn't be hard to recruit enough mercs who would also lay down their lives in a suicide mission, which Kahah III pretty much is, for example to pay for a better life for their loved ones.
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Where, if anywhere, is the limit of plausibility now ?
Can't comment on the incursion stuff because I think I wasn't too active around then, and the whole topic you linked was all news to me.
Well, I remember getting flak about "just text RP" before, so I took it to heart and actually brought in-game items to where I said I had stuff happen, with "photographic evidence."
So, limit of plausibility, I guess, would be in what you can show in-game. If someone has the game money and the time to gather up 100,000 soldiers and means to ferry them all into a system, then I think they should be given some acknowledgement for that.
In lieu of that, if you really want to wage war, well, you're going to have a hard time if all you have are ground troops, and no in-game items I think exist for example for air-superiority fighters, ground support vehicles etc.
That is what I had in mind when I made my claims, what is plausible? A thousand well trained mercs fighting guerilla warfare across an entire star system (not all of them are in Kahah III) sounded in my mind very feasible. Since the number is also so small, I figured it wouldn't be hard to recruit enough mercs who would also lay down their lives in a suicide mission, which Kahah III pretty much is, for example to pay for a better life for their loved ones.
Aye, I think you've got the right idea, although I'm not up to speed on the specifics of any of this.
I think plausible is where people get 'iffy' about things, here's been my metrics over the years:
-Are there in-game items that you can spend ISK (effort) on available for this idea? If I'm landing mercenaries let me buy a few on the market along with small arms/whatever and show them in my cargo. This actually means a lot.
-What's the disposition of the area we are non-in-space RP fiddling with? I don't care how many mercenaries you have in your cargo, a capsuleer isn't going to land 1,000 of them on Amarr Prime in 1.0 space, for example. A planet in the middle of nowhere in 0.0? This seems more likely. Do you own the planet? Does your organization? Is there a war on? What seems plausible based on your relative strengths and weaknesses and realistic power projection in the area you are screwing with?
-Your character's relationship, credibility, and experience related to the arc. I think we'd all do well to generally give a bit of leeway to the characters who would reasonably know their way around and the ins and outs of the politics and mores of a thing if they are knee-deep in it. I don't care how much money Silas has, I highly doubt a lowsec Amarr Sabik is capable of influencing much of anything in Republic High Sec that even smells related to her, make sense? Lowsec Kindom? All over it. Tribal politics NPC storyline? Very unlikely to be doing much fuzzy influence RP in that arena. Soft influence giving money or items to the RPers who can? Sure. If your character doesn't know the ins and outs of an area and their politics, maybe they should work with someone who does, etc. I'm just a big fan of characters 'staying in their lanes' when it comes to the fuzzy things, out of respect for everyone's focus and history, if that makes sense?
Kahah is a 0.7, which is high sec, which means RKN all over anything that sneezes funny. 100% not saying YDIW, I think this is a great discussion. I'd probably have gone way lower than 1,000 but I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the premise at all. It's a warzone all of the sudden right? So you can argue that that means things are more confusing and it's easier to land a few teams here and there, or you can argue that it's less likely because the system is swarming with RKN and ground troops now.
-Immersion-breaking. There's enough ISK and things are priced a certain way that just because you can do a thing in game doesn't mean it's not facepalming for everyone else. I don't know what 'mercenaries' cost now but most could afford to buy legions and legions of them and show them in your cargo and say you are parking a freighter full of them in orbit to rain death on the populace/whatever. Not a good look.
Hows the arc going anyway?
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If your character doesn't know the ins and outs of an area and their politics, maybe they should work with someone who does, etc. I'm just a big fan of characters 'staying in their lanes' when it comes to the fuzzy things, out of respect for everyone's focus and history, if that makes sense?
Hmm. While yes this does make sense, I think the Kahah situation is such, that one does not need to know the ins and outs of everything there to want to be involved. If all characters just waited for Kithrus to gain an audience with King Khanid, well, I'd guess evreyone would already be dead Dave. Or maybe not, but who knows.
Kahah is a 0.7, which is high sec, which means RKN all over anything that sneezes funny. 100% not saying YDIW, I think this is a great discussion. I'd probably have gone way lower than 1,000 but I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the premise at all. It's a warzone all of the sudden right? So you can argue that that means things are more confusing and it's easier to land a few teams here and there, or you can argue that it's less likely because the system is swarming with RKN and ground troops now.
Yeah, pretty much my idea was that, the 1,000 for one is spread all over the system, so that makes a few hundred+ in Kahah III (originally 500 but many died before making to the surface because of AA) and rest everywhere else - not sure how many of the planets are actually inhabited, we know that at least 3 are. The 1,000 felt to me rational in a way that just a handful operatives could not drive much of wedge into the RK merry men, but any more units and it'd be more of an actual insurgent army and not just a group of people coming to cause trouble for the Khanid forces as well as help the rebels organize better.
-Immersion-breaking. There's enough ISK and things are priced a certain way that just because you can do a thing in game doesn't mean it's not facepalming for everyone else. I don't know what 'mercenaries' cost now but most could afford to buy legions and legions of them and show them in your cargo and say you are parking a freighter full of them in orbit to rain death on the populace/whatever. Not a good look.
Hows the arc going anyway?
Depends on where you buy the marines, or freedom fighters. Marines I think are more plentiful because 20 or so always get left over from certain missions. For example in Domain 500 marines cost you almost 400 million ISK. But other areas like Jita they're way cheaper, of course. Usually spread around multiple star systems though, which is what I meant with if someone has the time and patience and the means to park them on the lawn, I think it should be at least acknowledged.
And as I brought up, you can't fight much of a war with just infantry, which is the only thing we really have access to at least in any signifigant quantities, if we keep the "in-game items only" measuring stick in play.
Even if you dropped 100k or 1 million marines to a planet, they'd be massacred by any capable planetary militia with access to artillery, bombers, etc. Sure they might have some MANPADs and indirect fire capabilities, but most likely nowhere enough or with good enough range.
Oh, and the arc is.. I dunno. Stalled, though I guess they're considering and maybe even monitoring what the players are doing and if they'll assimilate or further acknowledge it. No new news since monday, though that might change at any time.
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Quite possibly waiting for the end of the Crimson Harvest event, which, iirc, is this Sunday?
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I wouldn't be expecting any shifts in the status quo. That's a bit above and beyond anything CCP has ever done. They've engaged a bit with the players, there'll be a news article or something 'resolving' that situation and we're going back to what was.
Maybe I'm wrong...
... rarely happens though. There's a reason the Prophet of New Eden tends to be right: Bet on the meh. Always bet on the meh.
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For example in Domain 500 marines cost you almost 400 million ISK. But other areas like Jita they're way cheaper, of course.
Well that's a rip off, its ~100mil isk for 5k in Rens.
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All good, Teinyhr!
I think what I meant about 'staying in lanes' was more about, I dunno, organizational capability or experience of the character if that makes sense?
I wasn't saying that there's not room for most everyone to at least tangentially be involved with events, more that I like to see when people who would seem suited for the things going on are doing the things they've established they are good at, if that makes sense? Everyone is not good at all things all the time.
If my character is a high sec mining and manufacturing character, it might look silly to others if I'm suddenly solo piloting a cloaked warship past blockades into enemy territory and running an insurgent planetside campaign with a bunch of militants, right? Maybe this mining character would seem more fleshed out to others if they are working with another capsuleer who does this kind of thing, or we establish that they have little experience with this stuff but are just throwing money at baseliners to see what they can get done, etc.
If this character is a pew-pew character and is running around low/null all day shooting people or doing facwar or whatever, maybe it makes more sense.
RE the initial incursion events, this was mostly a lot of fun for a lot of people with the usual nitpicking and edgelording all over :) The Sansha loyalists got a lot of love and most of us were pretty happy for them.
I think one reason some people tended to go overboard on the planetside fluff was that this was sort of a 'big' dev event with 'large' stakes.
I mean you had dev actors invading entire systems spawning battleship fleets above planets and abducting millions of people, huge amounts of people in system blowing up hundreds of NPCs in a big fking laser show. The sort of 'scale' of the thing tended to inflate capsuleer involvement, not to mention we were literally deciding how things would play out in real time, either we blew up the fleets or they abducted the populations, there were real/immediate RP consequences for in space performances.
It was quite messy at times but it was pretty fking fun, too.
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All good, Teinyhr!
I think what I meant about 'staying in lanes' was more about, I dunno, organizational capability or experience of the character if that makes sense?
I wasn't saying that there's not room for most everyone to at least tangentially be involved with events, more that I like to see when people who would seem suited for the things going on are doing the things they've established they are good at, if that makes sense? Everyone is not good at all things all the time.
If my character is a high sec mining and manufacturing character, it might look silly to others if I'm suddenly solo piloting a cloaked warship past blockades into enemy territory and running an insurgent planetside campaign with a bunch of militants, right? Maybe this mining character would seem more fleshed out to others if they are working with another capsuleer who does this kind of thing, or we establish that they have little experience with this stuff but are just throwing money at baseliners to see what they can get done, etc.
If this character is a pew-pew character and is running around low/null all day shooting people or doing facwar or whatever, maybe it makes more sense.
Oh yeah I gotchu, EVE's typically about not letting ones mouth write checks their skills or amount of friends can't cash. And I do agree with you on your points.
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Re: status quo, to a certain degree CCP can't massively change the universe without a significant input of time and energy to change mission texts, backstory sites, etc. CCPers comment on it a lot with, for instance, their good fortune that Cash-Money took the throne instead of a male heir, as they didn't have to change all the gender references about the current empress; or their mixed feelings about Khanid's chances at that, which would've been hilarious for a lot of reasons, but would've taken so much work to pan out. In this case, it's not like Kahah's going to switch from Kingdom sovereignty to Republic, so-- what's the threshold for 'meaningful change'?
That said, as to the comment on lanes and such. Yeah, that's a reason why some of us haven't gotten in on these shenanigans. :x It's easy to stock up a giant pile of marines, but would it make sense for IKAME to drop an army group on the planet? :x
Still, having fun watching from the outside!
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That said, as to the comment on lanes and such. Yeah, that's a reason why some of us haven't gotten in on these shenanigans. :x It's easy to stock up a giant pile of marines, but would it make sense for IKAME to drop an army group on the planet? :x
Still, having fun watching from the outside!
Right, this is why an active fiction team with enough resources to 'spread the plot' is crucial! It's all Kingdom stuff this week or whatever, but the next one should be over in the State, etc.
Don't even get me started on a Tash Murkon on the throne :P I would have given several important parts of my anatomy to see G. Khanid II on that throne and the endless, endless RP mirth that would have resulted from the consternation from the legions of Imperial loyalists who had spent the last 5 or 6 years poo pooing on the Kingdom folks :)
Re: Meaningful change, this is why I really wish they had a 'dynamic' security and sovereignty rating for highsec NPC to reflect plots. How much more insane would this Kahah arc be if the system was temporarily .4 during the 'crisis' with spawns of RKN fleets, etc. Or if some big new plot had x nation annex y system, let's see it in game, so everyone's standings matter and NPCs act accordingly, etc etc.
I have no idea how the under the hood things would work, but imagine if the devs had more dials to adjust for storylines, and they had managed to rework/update missions to make them adaptable or generic, etc.
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Absolutely agreed on the mechanical components! I'm hoping FW's on CCP's radar, because it'd be bloody amazing if they managed to integrate a more generalized system that'd make that sort of thing more viable. As I understand it, the current system would require a lot of work to properly recognizing changing world states.
That said, CCP Burger's musings, while certainly fanciful, gave me hope for the sort of thing the recently-promoted people want to see. And given that Burger was responsible for the new NPC AI in some capacity and also has a love of story-telling shenanigans, I'm (very guardedly!) hopeful. A bit. A tiny bit. But hopeful.
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When asked by the (previous?) CSM to rate a series of potential jobs and fixes from "very small" (balance an underperforming ship) to " very large" (POS -> Upwell) amounts of work, FW was rated "large". It was expected it would take multiple teams at least 6 months to create a system CCP were happy to publish to the game. In that time period, other releases would limited to "little things" and quick ship balance passes.
Unfortunately CCP have not yet felt they have the time allocation to actually sit down and do it. :(
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Well, I kind of called it. You can't leave things this vague without players hurrdurring it up. First we had Vlad "I don't know how to not wildly overdo everything grimderp edgy style" drop dusters with nukes onto the planet, and now we have a literal freighter full of troops apparently establishing entire fucking fortresses planetside and having 'escort fleets' that can apparently take on the entire Khanid Navy, according to the IGS.
This is why you keep clear rules and level playing fields. This is why you need clear limitations. I already said it, I can very easily drop entire freighterloads of forces all across New Eden, it's easily within my financial and piloting capability to do so. Yet, it's obviously something you can't do as a capsuleer or things go retarded rather sharpish.
... and yet here we are.
This is why we can't have nice things and why we need clear rules for what we can and can't do. This fuzzy vague shit? It just opens up for this kind of nonsense.
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Oof. Yeah. Well, it's now CCP's headache.
I'm on the verge of going in to bracket mode in that thread and remind people that you know, roleplaying is not a competition but a collaboration, and typically roleplaying for others is considered very bad form. And saying "we will land a gazillion troops and save ALL the slaves and nothing can stop us" is very much godmodding when you are not the god here, CCP is.
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For what it's worth, they're being inclusive by making it an in-space RP event. That's not a bad thing, IMO. Something can be doomed from the start but still be good for RP. I just think no one should be under any expectations that this will actually result in the landing of a whole army on the planet. Maybe a few escape/assault pods make it, and maybe there's some aftermath from debris and stuff, but no army is getting down there.
And it would be ideal, of course, for clearer rules on just what is and is not doable to be established for the future.
tl;dr: Content creation good. Actually successfully landing army on planet bad, because that opens up a massive can of worms if it works.
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tl;dr: Content creation good. Actually successfully landing army on planet bad, because that opens up a massive can of worms if it works.
Yep, I don't think anyone disagrees on that.
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No one really minds content creation, but this is one of those situations where actually responding to it is a very finicky thing. CCP aren't going to sit there monitoring the system the whole day ready to spawn Navy to turn the freighter into a few light-seconds long smear in space. Having enough players sit around in Tornados to do the same is also a bit of an unlikely thing to see, etc etc.
This is just several things coming together making it a bit hurrdurr. The scale of it is just... no, we can't do this. It'd unhinge the entire universe and setting. So thus it has to fail, which means either CCP or others making sure it does, which is frankly a bit much to ask. It's sufficiently specific that it'd have to be countered in specific ways, rather than be open to more varied counter-play, etc.
tl;dr, it's going too far in a way that's just not very engageable for neither friends, enemies or NPCs unless the freakin' stars align in some cosmic coincidence of unfathomably low odds.
Content creation is great. Stick to the rules, and when CCP breaks the rules, play conservatively. Honestly, only way I see out of this one is if the player decides to write their own staggering failure into it all and play it out themselves, unless AmarrBloc manages to get decs and sizable fleets in play, which is not exactly something I've seen much of the last year.
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One would hope CCP steps in and dictated that "no a freightor can't breach a planetary surface" (a different tangant: isn't trit not stable enough to enter an atmosphere thus their lore explaination for why we couldn't enter planets' atmosphere? Thought it said that somewhere) or better yet they get popped by rkn forces on the way there. Realistically this would be the same as me deciding to invade Amarr for the hell of it and the Imperial navy ignoring thousands of soldiers who they are at war with land unimpeeded, it makes little logical sense.
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The frieghter's pilot is in FW which immediately makes him an active target for a lot of the Amarr bloc, and he's timed and dated the attempt which gives plenty of prep time for anyone outside of FW to get a dec in.
It feels to me that he's really hoping to have people come oppose him; this would be the best opportunity for Amarr/Min conflict over an actual storyline for years. I get the impression that he doesn't expect to actually make it to the planet, and is instead hoping to get a nice fight out of it between Amarr defenders and his escort.
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Kala and a few others are getting the point of all this. Many folks are just sitting and acting like the heart of the RP community while doing everything they can to shoot this down. Shoot the freighter down instead, it's going to be a free target, you've time to batphone in who ever or hire mercs like some of you like to do.
This is content, both in-game and RP-wise. It's more than most folks dare to attempt and it's NOT a far stretch to say that a freighter can sit in orbit to act as a command location for the entire operation when it is to be guarded by a fleet of militia ships. We're not expecting that if we manage to hold the ground for a full hour or so that we'll have saved every single slave on Kahah III, or even a majority. 90% of the points and accusations I've read so far against this being feasible are nothing more than a lazy excuse to avoid having to do anything to prevent this from happening.
If you consider yourself a supporter of the RP community in EvE then you'd be supporting this rather than shooting it down, it's been well thought out and there is no part of it that is "god modding" the scene to go how we want. We're setting a grounds for RP and content, that is all we're doing with this.
Quit shitposting on the forums, pick a side and fight. Even find some other way to get involved. Though really, a lot of you need to get off your high horses and support the community rather than acting like you're above it. None of you speak for CCP and so far they have not commented on this, so all you can do is theory craft right now about what is feasible and not.
Like I said, all we're aiming for is content. If the freighter survives and manages to get out alive then we will NOT be claiming that we have saved every single slave on the planet, merely a sizable and believable number of them. If we are blown to bits and fail miserably? Then it was a great fun event regardless and a worthwhile effort from the true freedom fighters of Matar, those who chose to take action and support their character's morals rather than OOCly sit around and nit pick reasons as to why they think this is dumb.
Support it and help out, or go huff and puff in your little circles.
PS- It's nice to see so many defending this too, you've got our thanks. A lot of thought, planning and ISK has went into making this happen.
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If the freighter survives and manages to get out alive then we will NOT be claiming that we have saved every single slave on the planet, merely a sizable and believable number of them.
This is the issue. The only thing victory in space demonstrates is victory in space. Whether or not the army actually gets to the surface or rescues anyone is up to CCP, as it has been for every other player action that has been done with regards to this event since it started.
No matter how much effort and money has gone into an RP event, ultimately a CCP arc is a CCP arc. They're the DMs, as it were.
90% of the points and accusations I've read so far against this being feasible are nothing more than a lazy excuse to avoid having to do anything to prevent this from happening.
The majority of people complaining about it aren't people that would act against it. Many are people that have already been participating in efforts to help the slaves already. The accusations are legitimate worries about the threat of opening the proverbial floodgates. The moment something like this works, is the moment EVE becomes a game where we are all apparently able to land armies on planets. I hope you can understand why people feel we need to be careful with things like this: It's a slippery slope.
I'll repeat that I do think the idea behind this event is good. I think content generation is good, especially when it's in space! I'm just saying, if/when you succeed, what counts as op success should probably be something to the effect of, "We successfully broke through capsuleer loyalist forces and have launched landing craft from the freighter." From there, the final results are determined by CCP.
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I get your points Samira, really. I agree that the final outcome should be down to CCP to decide should we win the space fight and succeed with the general idea behind the plan. My main issue is simply how sick I am of the "inner circle" of the RP community, honestly. Lost count of how many RPers have been chased away by the elitist attitudes and immediate criticism for trying to create content and such, it's largely why I stick to comfortable groups for RP in EvE, not because I break lore or have ideas too crazy or dumb in the eyes of the majority of RPers, but because of the attitudes. Unless it's a "ball/social gathering" or a political debate in the IGS channel, I never see nor hear of real RP/IG-content being driven like this, it's a shame.
PIE/SFRIM and UK seem to be the only ones that properly seem to push a parallel line matching IC and IG.
EDIT: and a couple other groups of course, generalizing a bit.
People could be a lot more constructive - like your response there was to me, which is much appreciated considering my tone and attitude in the post. :P
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You do realize that some characters would take a situation where they feel their people are needlessly being brought to die would oppose that right? Some shit posting maybe but alot of it seems like rational responses to basically "I'm going to send thousands of your kin to die to make a statement with very little possible positive outcome." Consider whatever I say shit posting all ya want, but it's definitely the response I'd imagine her making.
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You do realize that some characters would take a situation where they feel their people are needlessly being brought to die would oppose that right? Some shit posting maybe but alot of it seems like rational responses to basically "I'm going to send thousands of your kin to die to make a statement with very little possible positive outcome." Consider whatever I say shit posting all ya want, but it's definitely the response I'd imagine her making.
Honestly I've never had a problem with that, it's true. Though it's not what Ferra believes. That argument is not what I'm getting at in these OOC posts really. We wouldn't be attempting this if we didn't think that there could be success from it. :)
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As far as
I deploy 500 troops
Well I deploy 10,000 troops!
competitiveness goes, I think it needs to be handled much like the "agreed upon rules" for hand-to-hand combat RP, or any competitive RP that takes place outside the theatre of space.
Players stop RPing in the form of "I do this" and start using "I attempt to do this". In combat RP this would usually look like "X swings a punch at Y" and it's up to Y to decide if it hits or not. Obviously this requires both sides to be willing to (literally) take a few punches, which (imo) is why this form of RP is so rarely done.
However in this case there is a third party choosing which punches do and don't connect, and as CCP are so deeply aware of wanting to avoid favoritism, I imagine it's a reasonably fair umpire.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that as long as players are saying "I attempt to do something" and allowing CCP to confirm whether or not it actually takes place rather than speaking in absolutes, there really isn't a problem.
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It would be fairly obvious that anti air and such would be present as modern day countries have it, thousands of years in the future that practice would disappear? That's where half my "ugh the RMS is slacking" comments are coming from. People are definitely throwing ooc stuff in which ya they should try to be more creative in explaining those thoughts I guess. More less alot of the flak your getting is justified, seems like people aren't taking creative license to explain it for whatever reason.
Added:
The idea is great, it does seem polarizing in the minmatar camp which should be expected.
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Well fuck, that's the first time I've been called "RP Inner Circle." Dunno if I should be happy or ashamed. Probably ashamed since I've never wanted to drive anyone away from the roleplaying side of the game, quite the opposite.
Thank the Amarr Lord you're here Samira, because you said exactly what I wanted to say and quite likely with lot less cursing. I acknowledge that my first reaction and how I worded it was not the best one. I'm not against creating content, but I was really worried on how it was apparently going to play out, as elsewhere discussed, I was worried it was going to be "/me does thing" instead of "/me attempts to do thing".
Like, for example, I haven't been part of the FW apparently in about 7 years, neither did I remember that U'K is part of it apparently, so it honestly didn't cross my mind that any attempt going at the freighter without suiciding would be possible (not that it bringing a neutral alt wouldn't still be possible..) As such, my view on the event has changed, indeed, there is great RP conflict potential there, now that you brought that up.
I would however like to raise a point that, even while Mizhara isn't my favourite character or a person by a long shot because believe it or not I've butted heads with her over similar issues in the past... That saying that she doesn't bring her RP IG is just.. Well, only she can really say what it is, but I'll just say patently untrue.
As well, I've spent considerable time around Kahah, Yulai etc. over this event, and uncharacteristical amount of ISK considering I don't have null income and I am a singular person, so that jab felt a bit unfair.
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None of you speak for CCP and so far they have not commented on this, so all you can do is theory craft right now about what is feasible and not.
Or, you know, we have enough experience and knowledge about this setting to be able to say some things with confidence. Let's have a look at Capsuleers vs Navies straight from Falcon:
Even the largest alliances and coalitions of capsuleers in New Eden are tiny in comparison to the armed forces of the Empires.
Ironically, for all the destruction that goes on at the hands of capsuleers, the largest fleets seen in action from independent capsuleers are minuscule in comparison to the size of the faction navies.
Fly to Amarr, and head on over to take a look at the honour guard there.
Now consider that's a single FLIGHT of ships. Not a squadron, or a wing. Just a single flight. That gives a slight sense of scale.
Then for reference, let's look at the Gallente Federation, which relies heavily on automation and has the smallest navy in terms of active service personnel.
FEDCAF - the Federal Combined Armed Forces, or The Combined Armed Forces of the Gallente Federal Union to give them their full name, has roughly 97.9 billion - not million - personnel in total.
The logistics involved are astronomical. Everything from the GFPD to tripwire, Customs, the FIO, the Navy... logistics, maintenance, fleet, administration, everything, all working together. Policing and securing six regions, fifty-four constellations with patrols on every highsec gate and roaming deadspace/tripwire patrols and installations 23/7/365.
These are massive, bloated forces that are so heavily entrenched and technologically advanced that they don't actively see independents as a threat.
The context for this is all of capsuleer nullsec going up against one Empire. Thousands and thousands of capsuleers, with all their hundreds and hundreds of Titans, their super carriers, their capitals and force auxiliaries, their battleships blobs and so on...
... doesn't even register as a threat.
Yeah, the Royal Khanid Navy would take on all of Ushra'Khan, all of Electus Matari, all of all of us and turn it all into a smear in space by sneezing lightly in our general direction. You know, if CCP could dedicate people to sit around and throw Dev Actors with GM commands at us whenever we decide to make an event. Of course, they can't do that, and thus there's limitations to how much they can actually enforce what the actual lore of Capsuleer vs Navy capabilities are.
It really does not make sense to start creating fortresses on hostile planets, dumping freighterfuls of troops and so on. Lorewise, we are so heavily outmatched in such contests that the only way we can possibly actually do things, is staying under the radar. Be effective with small numbers, support the actual baseliner forces that are actually doing things, the slave uprisings and so on. Be force multipliers, drop some armaments, provide intel and so on and so forth. Watch troop movements, help resistance/freedom fighters sabotage them maybe, etc.
All relatively small stuff, can still have an impact, and doesn't open the floodgates giving us crazy power that we really don't have, and isn't lorebreaking. Things that are too big would by any reasonable metric be responded to with force we can't possibly hope to match.
My problem will never be content generation. I've spent basically this entire year at war with all of AmarrBloc, and I've fought and won (and lost) in high, low and null against their smallest to biggest corps and alliances. You want to create content, I'll throw billions your way and fund it if need be. Go for it, I fuckin' love it.
... just don't try to break the game while you're doing it. There's literally nothing that says you need to drop a freighterload of forces onto a planet, in violation of every piece of lore we have on that kind of thing. You've seen what CCP already responds favorably to, and can continue in the same scale and vein without doing any harm at all, and you can create the exact same amount of content bringing in something else in a freighter, or whatever. Hell, go shoot the PIE alts' Astrahus, for that matter. They anchored a content generator too.
Trying to set the precedent that capsuleers can suddenly drop freighterloads of troops planetside is just... unnecessary, opens up all kinds of cans of worms, doesn't actually provide any content but does invite all sorts of problems and...
... well, it's just plain pointless. There's countless ways to create potential content with the exact same ingredients, without breaking the world doing so.
I'll let that 'too lazy to have to do anything to prevent this from happening' thing be, because it's kind of funny.
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I wonder if I'm in the RP Elite Community or something? It'd be kind of funny, given that I'm pretty much never in sync with the various cliques and communities around here.
Edit: Well shit, apparently I am.
You head the Inner Circle
obviously
everyone submits to Mizrule
*bows and worships*
we are not worthy
Why did no one tell me? I'm always the last person to find out this stuff. Fine.
I AM THE SENATE!
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All we're trying to say is that this is an attempt really. CCP gets final say in it's success or failure, but if you want to oppose it IC/IG then get in a ship and come fight the freighter and it's protection contingency. We're trying to create some real IG content here is all, there is no competition intended to "one up" anyone else who's been attempting similar things on Kahah III.
As for my comment about the inner circle, that was left for interpretation I guess, though I most certainly am not pointing the finger at anyone individually as being part of it or involved in what I'm griping about in relation to it. Don't take it to heart Tein, I wasn't pointing at you.
Also, Mizhara, I'm aware of how things are with the faction's navies and armies. They can react if they want, it's Khanid space and TLF/UK aren't shot on sight there, if it were meant to be, it would be. We'll see what happens in terms of this becoming CCP spawned PvE or not, but what ever the case it's going ahead and is happening. CCP will get the final say on the outcome of all this, but the event itself is going ahead. Like it or lump it. Banish us from the heart of the RP community for it if you all want to, or what ever, turn a blind eye, a cold shoulder. We're creating content and chances for RP side-by-side. The ball is in the Amarr players park as far as we're concerned and the outcome in the hands of CCP to determine what comes of it should the Matari effort be successful. It's a legal engagement according to CONCORD too.
I'm done arguing it, we're "attempting" this and it's all in motion now anyway. Just do us a favor and rally up some Amarr Militia or something so we're not sitting around staring at a freighter for an hour or so.
Have a little leniency and open your horizons a bit more than "nuh it can't happen because reereereeasons." Give folks trying to create stuff like this a break, the community could really benefit from things like this and semi-pre-planned engagements like this to really bolster the IG/IC connection for RPers and non-RPers alike. A good narrative like this deserves it.
EDIT: I'm honestly not trying to cause so much conflict in the community with everything I'm trying to stand for here. I know a lot of you might be thinking that and so far I've no ill will against any of the folks who've debated all this with me. I'm just trying to fight for this to have a chance to be accepted as something that is happening, you don't have to agree with it being a smart move, it's likely not. Though it's a move that the characters involved are passionate about and are giving it their all - they're not concerned about looking stupid if they fail, they're only concerned with saving the lives of as many slaves as they can before they're ended by the Khanid regime. We're Ushra'khan and freedom fighters, many of which extremist inclined when it comes to the good fight, what else did you expect? :D
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Well obviously it has to go ahead, it'd be weird if you'd suddenly go "nah, changed our minds" IC.
Edit: and well, I guess I need to get a Tornado or something to shoot at PIE/SFRIM essentially we're on the same side, and maybe I could piggyback my mercs (whats left of them) out of Kahah with this. Maybe not. We'll see. Altough hmm, since you guys are at war with each other nobody is likely going suspect and I'm not at war with anyone so I guess I'll have to sit this one out.
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Teinyhr, we've got a Logi wing who would only go suspect, not criminal for helping in the fight.
Edit: And there's time for a cheap 50m or so wardec against PIE or SFRIM. I'll pay. ;)
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Have a little leniency and open your horizons a bit more than "nuh it can't happen because reereereeasons."
Okay, how about having a little bit of leniency, opening your horizons a bit more than "THIS HAPPENS CUZ WE SAY SO!" and maybe go "Oh, right. Well, we can do the exact same things in space without breaking every piece of lore in existence."? It's not like it's difficult to work with people. You're too focused on the fact that there's criticism and not enough on the fact that it's constructive. When I tell you why something likely doesn't work like this, it's because there's ways things can be done. It'd require nothing but the most minor of adjustments to provide the exact same in-space options without dumping freighterloads of troops on hostile planets.
I'm also rather curious who you're pegging as 'the heart of the community' or who is trying to 'banish' you or anyone else. So far, you're the one who's unilaterally declaring 'Inner Circles' and throwing rather offensive autism insults at people providing criticism.
I mean, you understand why people are leery, right? Imagine opening this can of worms. If we set the precedent that we can do this, it's one hell of a slippery slope. I know people who solo can stuff double digits worth of freighters full of troops and so on, throwing them at any planet in New Eden. Scary precedent to set.
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Yes, well, despite her personal feelings about U'K Tein will not shoot them if they're doing the right thing on K3. Assuming the (Grr)Amarr show up with a logi wing or something, that might be something to shoot at.
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I get it Miz, I do. Despite how this is all being handled on the forums, we ARE taking criticism constructively, I'm just on a personal vendetta against elitism which honestly is a can of worms I regret opening already. Like I said, I'm not pointing the finger at people, more just the attitudes in general that tend to quickly group up and lead to everyone having their "this is dumb" say and input. The community can be quite harsh at times and often seems as if it's merely trying to shoot down the whole thing rather than provide constructive criticism.
Ultimately we are only making an attempt and earlier when I said a victory would entail us saving a number of slaves(not all/majority) was intended only as example, not as a solid fact on what the end result would be from op success. We fully expected a bit of blow back - though not quite to the scale that's developed. We just want to break away from server-wide RP events feeling so locked to ballroom dances or debates and shitfuckery in the IGS/TS channels. The only reason we're announcing the plans is in hopes of rousing PIE/SFRIM and some others in Amarr Militias to bring a little fight our way, otherwise the chances in gaining that would have been extremely grim. It's content for everyone we're trying to provide under a very good narrative and reason to have sparked this action taken by the Matari militia and extremists. Sure Amarr Navy would ruin us with a sneeze, but the will and hearts of those involved is willing to risk it to save these slaves - whether that makes us martyrs or suicidal maniacs, we are taking action into our own hands. Those involved in the strike are all capsuleers anyway, who cares if we're blown up and fail, we tried. The skeleton crews of the capsuleer ships are all militia and signed up for this crazy shit anyway.
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Hey, I recognize, salute and promote all these things. More in-game shit, hurrah. It's exactly what's needed.
Just sayin', you can do all of these things without borking the setting. Bringing the ships, the freighter, etc etc is all fantastic stuff. The only real point of contention is dropping an unreasonable army planetside. It's unnecessary for the content, and it's unreasonable in terms of what it tries to set a precedent for. Even just attempting it is kind of godmodey, since that establishes that we even have the damn hardware for it and that we can launch that from freighters, somehow.
Just having that power is something that'd set characters like Miz up as unfathomable Gods, raining death, destruction and millions of troops down upon Marys.
All I'm saying is, maybe shift things slightly, IC. Shift it from 'dropping troops planetside' to maybe establishing a space-side supply of forces, armaments and supplies for the rebelling slaves and baseliner organizations working with them. This'd justify everything you do in space, ensuring all the content is in place, and yet leaving all the 'troop dropping' etc etc to CCP and IC it'd make perfect sense just having it all ready for those moments of opportunity as the baseliners/rebels/etc briefly shut down shield generators or knock out anti-air briefly enough that small landing craft can bring down a small number of forces/supplies/armaments.
You'd get all the in-space stuff. You'd get to affect the conflict to a greater degree than capsuleers ever have before these events. You'd do all of the things you say you want, without opening any cans of worms there, you know?
As for your personal vendetta against elitism, I'm not entirely sure what you're even referring to in this case. Is 'elitism' adhering to the actual lore? I'm genuinely an elitist jerk (actual member back in the day) and when it comes to RP I'm pretty strict indeed, but this isn't exactly anyone being unreasonable.
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since that establishes that we even have the damn hardware for it and that we can launch that from freighters, somehow.
Tangentially related to all of this, when the "Wrath of Garkeh" Ark appeared, it used the Planetary Customs Office (to my knowledge) to move units. Of course we couldn't establish which way, both pulling out and reinforcing seem plausible, but then again if they were pulling out, I'm sure there'd been news about it already, 2 days in.
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Yup, it makes some kinds of sense that we can sometimes utilize the Custom's Office logistics path for relatively minor things. Smuggling arms, small units of forces, etc. However, it would in all likelihood be pretty minor in terms of what it can deploy down there. Extraction I'm sure is far more easily done, but the various nations would have insisted on significant security measures when it comes to deployment, I bet.
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To answer the latter part of that post first; I'm just being sour and bitter to put it into a TL;DR, though I still stand that a bit less aggressively defensive stance on giving constructive criticism is something a lot of folks on the forums and community should try sometime. Moving on!
"All I'm saying is, maybe shift things slightly, IC. Shift it from 'dropping troops planetside' to maybe establishing a space-side supply of forces, armaments and supplies for the rebelling slaves and baseliner organizations working with them. This'd justify everything you do in space, ensuring all the content is in place, and yet leaving all the 'troop dropping' etc etc to CCP and IC it'd make perfect sense just having it all ready for those moments of opportunity as the baseliners/rebels/etc briefly shut down shield generators or knock out anti-air briefly enough that small landing craft can bring down a small number of forces/supplies/armaments."
This is pretty much exactly how we're doing it and have always planned on it happening. All the marines, rebels and gear on the freighter is just to attempt this, there is no "it is happening because we have it in our cargo" to this. That's in CCP's hands 100% regardless of the outcome of the space battle(if we get one.) From all the responses the initial forum post got it's clear a lot of people didn't read it properly or simply get that this is all just one big attempt, there's no god modding involved at all in this. What ever the outcome is, is what it is, the only thing we're forcing is a fleet and freighter into orbit to try and achieve the goal of saving slaves. Everyone, the community and CCP are free to do with this as they wish, that's half the point in it all.
It was always aimmed to play out like that since it was planned, even prior to announcing it on the forums. We've just argued it so hard because a lot of folks are getting down our throats about something we already know and are trying to adhere to. Lol.
Regardless of this mess, I'm excited for it and looking forward to seeing if CCP picks it up on their radar to report on it - what ever happens.
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I think this freighter thing is pretty cool, kudos for putting the ISK up to see if it gets shot down. It sounds like you are leaving the results(it it lives) up to CCP which is good. Just be prepared with a lot of very vague statements in case CCP doesn't do anything with the hook at all, which is entirely possible(though I would hope not, they seem to be having fun with this arc so...). I'm kind of jealous of all you that might be able to see this stuff unfold more firsthand. I'm so damn swamped at work I'll probably miss anything juicy.
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I'll probably miss anything juicy.
So will everyone else
(https://i.imgur.com/yrhkpi9.png)
:psyccp: pls
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I'll probably miss anything juicy.
So will everyone else
(https://i.imgur.com/yrhkpi9.png)
:psyccp: pls
try,
removing your account from the launcher, then adding it again.
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That is what I did to receive that error.
The previous error was
(https://i.imgur.com/DzVhFzT.png)
Edit:
Anyway, this is off topic. But thanks CCP.
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I'm not subbed for a long time, so I dont have a dog in this fight, and I'm only reading this thread....but:
Hostile capsuleers aren't publicly advertising and then successfuly landing freighters full of troops in enemy high sec, at least unless there's been a drastic retconning or re-work of the IP?
I know we are lore nerds and all but this isn't like, 10th level lore nerd stuff.
There are nearly unlimited ways to pew pew in space with your RP friends and enemies and bring ships and content to all the land without this approach, I'm not sure why this path was chosen? You can literally do the same event in space and say you are hauling relief supplies or make anything up you like and have the same potential game interaction?
A lighter touch on this sort of thing always goes down better with others and is more palatable to the fiction and setting. It gets cringe real fast with this kind of thing, believe it.
Any NPC faction in the game would shit all over this, at least how they have been written and explained to us over the last 15 years? Am I missing something? RKN specifically managed to hold off several Imperial Navy invasions before and during the 'cold war', and their ground troops are arguably among the best in the cluster, way scarier than their Navy at least.
Maybe work out something similar and interact with a deployed capsuleers structure in orbit?
I just don't see how it passes the smell test.
I mean you all do your thing have fun, it doesn't always have to make sense I guess, but part of communal narrative lasting is keeping it all on the same page before escalation into the imagination stratosphere
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That's a separate criticism that has nothing to do with the effort and isk spent, which are all good things, and it's great you are coming up with ways to get everyone out and shooting.
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I'd also like to add my voice of general support for this. Trying to make things move is a good thing, creating content in space is a great thing (the end goal of any dev doing this) and creating good stories and legends that live on is part of what will keep EVE RP and other parts of the game going. Please do not take the criticism OOC too harshly, and the criticism IC coming from your own side... it's because IC they are afraid of a loss of lives and material for little real gain. If a big, blustery Amarr group were attempting something under similar circumstances, we'd be up in arms as well. But it seems U'K is intent on making a statement, which this definitely will.
I also do agree that some more finesse when it comes to lore plausibility could have been done, but only if you are intending to increase your chances of "winning" and "success" within the IC and game context. Clearly, however, you are prepared to lose, which is an excellent attitude to take to this. In fact, honestly, every part of this plan reeks of U'K's signature style: big, loud, pissed off but not especially bright. Good on you, and there is no shame in trying or in keeping with the flavor of your characters and group. Do something or die trying is very much a valid Minmatar attitude to have.
We may or may not have something (or even a reason to) resist the attempt since opinions are fractured on the Amarr and Caldari side and it's a bit short notice, but we'll see what happens. May our fites be gud and our 'splosions pretty.
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Personally, I always found this entire thing a bit iffy, and find the concept of a fleet assault to be the least iffy part of it.
It always struck me as weird how this escalated. Smuggling the occasional team of mercenaries down to the planet and the occasional frigate or industrial's worth of survivors out through various means felt realistic. Hostile penetrations of air space always felt a bit like walking on the edge of what was acceptable, at least with haulers. That is why I am very happy that some within the Amarr where willing to play inside agent and thus provide a plausible way to save people.
But things soon escalated beyond that and several capsuleers started landing armies by the hundreds or even thousands and even set up staging areas in space, and that to me felt very weird and kind of unrealistic, since when can we invade a planet like that? If we had a fleet in orbit keeping the Khanid at bay, okay, but appearantly Kahah's airspace was just constantly being breached by entire army transports, or so it seemed with all the people claiming to land troops and bioweapons and what have you.
But people seemed happy enough to go with it, so I was happy enough to not make much of a stir, but now that a fleet's involved it's suddenly problematic?
I find the fleet to be the least questionable part, in part because the devs have shown a willingness to deploy NPC's (friggin' Concord!) to handle troublemakers in orbit, so I figured at worst maybe Chakaid will show up and summon a few dozen fleets if this was really deemed to be unrealistic and we'l be pasted the moment we enter system. And if not them, players also have a very big option to field their own fleet and make the operation a failure, there is a lot more forewarning involved here then with most "real" ops, so it seems like there are plenty of tools.
But beyond that, capsuleers seem capable of fielding pretty impressive fleets, so I find a breaching of the blockade with brute force plausible. at least for a short while.
The short while is important. No, we can't beat the Khanid navy, but we can get in, drive them off, and do our thing and get out before reinforcements arrive, hopefully. And that's only if absolutely everything goes according to plan, and is the absolute maximum that can be achieved here.
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Like I said, it seems to me U'K aren't concerned with pulling off a flawless victory with this, but IC to just do something that assuages their need to stick it to the man. Which is fine, it's not smart or strategic, but it's a defiant Minmatar stand, which is in keeping with what they are.
They're trying something. Work with it.
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Wait what? No one's complained about a fleet. People are taking issue with deploying freighterloads of armies planetside. Please don't strawman this shit.
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But things soon escalated beyond that and several capsuleers started landing armies by the hundreds or even thousands and even set up staging areas in space, and that to me felt very weird and kind of unrealistic, since when can we invade a planet like that? If we had a fleet in orbit keeping the Khanid at bay, okay, but appearantly Kahah's airspace was just constantly being breached by entire army transports, or so it seemed with all the people claiming to land troops and bioweapons and what have you.
Agreed, though something to keep in mind is that a few hundred people spread across several several populated planets each comprised of millions-billions of people winds up being quite a small number. Though most people are focused on Kahah III, the uprisings are spread out across the system (including the Khanid space station). I could see how it might feel a bit on the high side, though (but something to keep in mind is that there's a difference between how many you try to land, and how many get through. Same thing will of course be the case with the freighter army. Only CCP can say how many of the attempted number actually gets through).
Bioweapons are a bit iffy. They can have a big effect, but they're realistically something very easy to smuggle in, possibly even easier than smuggling in personal firearms. Even IRL, bioweapons are one of the easiest means of conducting terrorism. Nukes are a different story, though even there IRL there's growing fears of nukes being miniaturized enough to fit in a briefcase. Obviously though, the ability for such things to have an effect, or just how big of an effect that might be, would be entirely up to CCP. No one should be RPing 'lol I just set off a 30 kiloton bomb in this planet's capital city!' or 'I unleashed a deadly plague across the planet!'.
Staging areas in space are a non-issue to me. CONCORD capsuleer policies basically legally allow you to move wherever you please and set up whatever you please in space. However, there's no way those facilities are actually launching shuttle craft back and forth from the surface. I don't think anyone has claimed that, but that should definitely be a no-no. At best they can function as communication hubs. Depots are nice though, for the same reason the UK/VA thing is nice -- it's something in space, that people can hunt down and shoot.
But people seemed happy enough to go with it, so I was happy enough to not make much of a stir, but now that a fleet's involved it's suddenly problematic?
It's more the '100,000 troops' than the fleet. The fleet is the awesome part of all this, and something I commend of you all. But with that number of footsoldiers, it's a moment where you can no longer feasibly hide what you're doing by sneaking aboard normal baseliner transport activity or the occasional blockade runner (as in function, not ship class). That's where you have to start RPing launching fleets of assault craft.
I find the fleet to be the least questionable part, in part because the devs have shown a willingness to deploy NPC's (friggin' Concord!) to handle troublemakers in orbit, so I figured at worst maybe Chakaid will show up and summon a few dozen fleets if this was really deemed to be unrealistic and we'l be pasted the moment we enter system. And if not them, players also have a very big option to field their own fleet and make the operation a failure, there is a lot more forewarning involved here then with most "real" ops, so it seems like there are plenty of tools.
It should be noted CCP has yet to demonstrate any ability to dynamically spawn NPC fleets on people. In the past, for them to put together a fleet, they needed to get everyone in the office to log on individually, which made counters to player activity difficult (though there has been exceptions, like the original sansha incursions and the drifter attack on Jamyl. I assume those were pre-arranged). Actually, one of the reasons why they stopped live events a few years back was because they didn't feel they had enough dev tools to do it justice.
The CONCORD thing was most likely a mistake. They generally set players to suspect, not criminal. Suspect allows for player agency, while CONCORDing doesn't. I don't see them CONCORDing the freighter. What they might do, though, is set everyone in the area suspect, to open it up to people not in FW/not under war decs.
Ultimately it'll be up to players to stop the space side of things.
As for what happens on the ground/air if the space battle is won? That'll be up to news reports.
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Which is why the fleet is awesome, there is no need to hide what you're doing if you can clear the blockading fleet off the system. Air superiority is a wonderful thing, and it would be quite easy to deploy 100 thousand troops then.
Hey, nobody said there'd be no collateral damage.
The point is more, I found it hard to believe that various capsuleers would be able to "hide" what ultimately amounts to armies of mercenaries and footsoldiers over the course of several weeks, particularly when they openly brag about doing so.
The fact that that was okay and this is not is what I find strange, particularly when there is actually a good reason for the landing, for once (I.e, if the op works, there is nothing to stop the landing).
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After 17-18 years or so of RP, I've definitely found that there is no community as anal as the EvE online RP community. Not that it's a bad thing, I just know I won't be helping organize or plan anything like this again. All the folks who agree keep messaging me and other supporters yet are scared to come forth publicly in fear of "the elite" bashing them and making them feel like inferior idiots(y'all good at that.) Those who helped and supported; thank you, very much, truly.
I've been planning a short break from EvE and was hoping to go out on a fun note, but honestly I just want this fleet over with now. I was looking forward to all the RP surrounding it, but I think I'll pass. Just let me blap Amarr and win EvE already.
o7
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Well, also don't be like that. There will always be naysayers to anything, and you do have plenty of supporters for this. Take the criticism in stride, seek the constructive bits while ignoring the destructive ones, carry on with life and have fun. There's a fair few publicly supporting this OOC. IC is trickier because that's based on how the characters react to the world dynamic, not what's fun, so don't take it too hard there. It's a suicide mission, and people adverse to suicide missions will speak out against it. Just carry on if it's what your people would do, and enjoy the results. Conflict is good.
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To add one point: If the Khanid kingdom is so determined not to let these attempts get by them, then many of the successes reported on my CCP themselves would also not have worked. People have been sneaking out slaves, and LITERALLY setting up infrastructure which has been reported on by CCP proving their willingness for these situations to work and create good arc-continuation of the story at hand.
What we're trying to do with the freighter isn't completely unbelievable, not if you lack a little imagination. It's clearly an extremely risky and likely suicide mission; but what good fucking story came from anything else in this situation? CCP have the imagination required to make this thing work, a lot of you should too. Bloody impossible sometimes, I swear.
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Well, also don't be like that. There will always be naysayers to anything, and you do have plenty of supporters for this. Take the criticism in stride, seek the constructive bits while ignoring the destructive ones, carry on with life and have fun. There's a fair few publicly supporting this OOC. IC is trickier because that's based on how the characters react to the world dynamic, not what's fun, so don't take it too hard there. It's a suicide mission, and people adverse to suicide missions will speak out against it. Just carry on if it's what your people would do, and enjoy the results. Conflict is good.
Thanks, sincerely. I'm just tired of it being the same people who jump to nit pick and shit on things like this, it's like they literally watch the forums 24/7 for someone to post something that's "wrong." #InB4TheRage
Regarding a break, I was planning it anyway. :)
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Agree with this definitely IC being a very U'K solution to things, so good on that front.
The boundaries of plausable capsuleers involvement with baseliner things and interactions/conflicts with NPC factions have always sort of pushed the limits of the IP, right?
It's just sort of where do we pick the lines for what seems to have been boundaries with the fiction previously. We get into funny areas that don't make sense regarding CONCORD and the Yulai Accords and the Nation States all the time. IE Kingdom people working the Stargate into Kahah probably wouldn't let an advertised UK invasion fleet into the system, right? So where does CONCORD "hands off capsuleers" jurisdiction end? After you get in the system? After they are tracked into low orbit? The minute they start trying to land ships? When do the imposed Concord restrictions on RKN blasting them out of the sky end?
Again this is a particular forum for turbo nerds to nerd out about all of this dumb lore stuff, one shouldn't expect this not to be dissected a bit on here of all places.
A bunch of geeks on here disagreeing shouldn't dissuade you from doing whatever you want to do in game at any time for any reason, but they also aren't going to not vocally debate some lore if it's outside of the norm.
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Which is why the fleet is awesome, there is no need to hide what you're doing if you can clear the blockading fleet off the system. Air superiority is a wonderful thing, and it would be quite easy to deploy 100 thousand troops then.
Hey, nobody said there'd be no collateral damage.
The point is more, I found it hard to believe that various capsuleers would be able to "hide" what ultimately amounts to armies of mercenaries and footsoldiers over the course of several weeks, particularly when they openly brag about doing so.
The fact that that was okay and this is not is what I find strange, particularly when there is actually a good reason for the landing, for once (I.e, if the op works, there is nothing to stop the landing).
I don't want to target Teinyhr here but I will agree that 1000 maybe does feel a bit high. But she herself seemed to recognize that though (pulling back from plans of 5000). Just, in that case, I feel I can judge it as mostly ignorable: The intent of keeping things low was there, if maybe the actual numbers could be considered iffy. It's a case where I don't feel the need to 'be the bad guy' and call it out, and I can reason in my headcanon that a good 90% of those people simply don't make it.
Honestly, you claiming to make off with 3000 slaves bugged me more, as the transport you were using can't even fit 3000 slaves (as Slave items are 5m3 each, heh). :P Or the numbers of rescues Thaila and MHE Industries were wanting to claim (in the range of tens or hundreds of thousands before I convinced them to ease up on it a bit). But again, in both these cases as with Teinyhr, I felt these numbers are still ultimately small enough that calling them out would be petty. (well, okay, I did call out Thaila's original numbers, but after she scaled them down to something more reasonable I didn't mind anymore). I can respect the idea of what is being attempted, acknowledge the goal, while handwaving the exact numbers if they don't fit what I personally view as within reasonable limits.
An army of a 100k troops, though, extends a bit beyond that level, to me.
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All the folks who agree keep messaging me and other supporters yet are scared to come forth publicly in fear of "the elite" bashing them and making them feel like inferior idiots(y'all good at that.)
Can confirm I have been receiving a shocking number of these messages as well. I don't personally feel troubled though, people can like or dislike whatever they want, in the end I don't feel anybody's participation is required.
I feel like some of these fears are in reference to the attitudes that some characters exhibit IC. IC/OOC seperation is not as much of a thing on EvE as it is on other MMO's, and not everyone seems to handle the routine derision from some of the ol' bittervets on the forums very well. Nobody's at fault with that one, if you ask me, and I think that's an entirely different topic that probably warrants it's own thread, so I won't go into that here.
With regards to numbers freed, Thaila's at least does number in the tens of thousands, which was not a stretch as I managed to acquire about ten thousand slaves (actual in game items in cargo holds) in the span of an afternoon from Kahah.
How this went unopposed is something we can ask the defenders, but it's certainly plausible. And on that note, large cargo vessels can hold a shocking amount of both slaves and troops.
If there is nothing to stop them landing, yes they are going to land. Is it futile? Probably not, and I don't know about Aldrith's assumption that it will be a guaranteed fail.
I mean naturally nobody is going to conquer all of Kahah III. That's just silly. It is certainly possible to go out with quite a hurrah, however, depending on what exactly happens.
And if people don't like that, well. I don't know. Don't participate? I mean everything in RP is optional, in the end. Nobody should force anybody to acknowledge anything. We're all here just to have fun in the end, and let no one ever forget about that end goal.
The endless debates on what is "realistic" is a very familiar one to me, and I'm afraid we probably won't ever reach a consensus on that. Communities rarely do, that's just how they work. One person says "you can't", another says "you can", and barring developer intervention, the truth will forever remain elusive.
I personally for example find it unrealistic to deploy thousands of troops in multiple runs on a defended planet, but find it very realistic to drop a hundred thousand if you've managed to clear the defense from orbit. Others might disagree.
This is fine, provided everybody is, as Aldrith has said, civil and constructive about it. And so far, it has mostly stayed civil and constructive.
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I think cries of "victimization" at the hand of "bittervets" belies a teeny bit of a brittle spirit. There's a huffiness and puffiness there about taking your ball and going home at the slightest glancing of opposition to something. Good god man, it's internet spaceships and imaginary pew pew let's everyone take a breath.
"I like 3/4 of this but have some issues with 1/4 of this lore wise"
"Do you bite your thumb at us, SIR!"
:yar: :yar: ;) ;) :D :D
This wouldn't be the first or the 500th time some RPers did something that other people scratched their heads at or argued about the feasibility of behind the scenes. The difference here might be that CCP usually didn't interact with us in any official capacity for this sort of thing so the lore 'collateral damage' was minimal for future arguments since there were no 'judges rulings' on any of it.
This entire forum is generally set up to talk about this kind of thing, usually (hopefully) with cooler heads about it :)
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Maybe we could change tack here though back to the 'arc' what is the current plotting on this?
Some Blooders released the aggro gas on multiple planets (not just Kingdom planets, right?). Have they talked much about culprits or larger aims with this stuff? In all of the Matari / Khanid pew pew discussions are the Blooders just giggling and watching or was there a plan to do anything during this?
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I think cries of "victimization" at the hand of "bittervets" belies a teeny bit of a brittle spirit.
Brittle spirit, or they just can't be buggered with being scoffed at most of the hours that they put into roleplay and go somewhere else. Some people think this is a problem, some think the system is working just fine. No opinion on that one here.
RE: The wider plot. I think the blooders are just giggling?
There havnt really been any hooks for us to follow up on, I believe. I heard murmurs of trying to expose Chakaid as a blooder here or there,but as far as I know, there are no threads to follow except the massacre of Kahah.
Maybe this will come, maybe not. I suspect not because the whole thing seems meant to tie in to the halloween event, which is seasonal.
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Maybe we could change tack here though back to the 'arc' what is the current plotting on this?
Some Blooders released the aggro gas on multiple planets (not just Kingdom planets, right?). Have they talked much about culprits or larger aims with this stuff? In all of the Matari / Khanid pew pew discussions are the Blooders just giggling and watching or was there a plan to do anything during this?
Blooders doesn't seem to be doing shit. It seems primarily to be a very hamfisted push by Khanid (in cahoots with blooders obviously) towards heightening tensions and creating military conflicts. The overall goal seems to be instability and chaos, allowing for power grabs and so on.
That's my take on it anyway.
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No offense intended re: brittle, was just being cheeky. Carry on :P
Interesting, guess we'll see if there's any fallout? I hope they wouldn't burn Khanid as having ties with the Sabik on this sort of thing just yet at least :P
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I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for that. Cosmo was never exactly the master of subtle writing, and people are already pretty much counting Khanid/Blooders as dick deep in each other.
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I can reason in my headcanon that a good 90% of those people simply don't make it.
Hmm. I don't think I ever IC stated it anywhere, but I do and did consider a fair few of them (several hundred by now) dead, many didn't even get down on the planets before AA tore their landing ships to pieces. But there was no reason for me to announce that IC. I recognize I maybe also made a mistake in putting a precise number on them, as I originally just said "contingent" which could be any number really.
Also, by the way, and I know this is bit of a copout for me to say this, but honestly, people need to come out and say it if they have a problem with something. Like this "RP elite", it will keep being that "authority" if nobody challenges them. And if, as I've been reading, "startling numbers" of support have been offered, looks to me whomever this vague elite is, is already outnumbered.
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Cosmo
who ?
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Whats the story with this "lords speaker" dude ?
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Shitler alt, Fweddit self-destructing a bunch of freighters, same old edgelord nonsense.
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so, a one-day injected alt, bankrolled by someone else, and they'll fade away again, no long term consequences, except the isk and material expended for "lulz". okay. I don;t know there's any fun rp that can come of that.
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Without getting into the rest of it (cargohold RP, mechanical-vs-out-of-mechanic play, etc.), the UK/GMVA fleet vs. today's sacrifice demonstrate pretty cleanly ways to do engaging fleet RP compared to, well, un-engaging fleet RP.
While there are lots of questions and we can have piles and piles of opinions about it, props to UK for trying to spark a live event!
And, what's more, I still contend this: sometimes, suboptimal play is necessary to set up conflict. Announcing the action, while certainly 'suboptimal' in a real opsec sense, has certainly set off a lot of RP that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
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After 17-18 years or so of RP, I've definitely found that there is no community as anal as the EvE online RP community. Not that it's a bad thing, I just know I won't be helping organize or plan anything like this again. All the folks who agree keep messaging me and other supporters yet are scared to come forth publicly in fear of "the elite" bashing them and making them feel like inferior idiots(y'all good at that.) Those who helped and supported; thank you, very much, truly.
On the danger of starting shit, I felt I had to respond to this too. I think this is pretty unfair lashing out considering how supportive most of the people in this thread have been, and basically everyone sans Mizhara voiced their concern in this in very polite manner after you came in and clarified what the event was about (and even before that, Samira and Kala). I'll echo everything Aldrith said in response (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=7533.msg122675#msg122675) to this message.
And you know, encourage these people afraid of the "elite" to come forward and discuss with us here and wherever they feel like. I don't mean right here and now, if they don't want to, obviously. But I love to see new people in the RP scene and I'll tell anyone who harasses them to go fuck a cactus.
And, what's more, I still contend this: sometimes, suboptimal play is necessary to set up conflict. Announcing the action, while certainly 'suboptimal' in a real opsec sense, has certainly set off a lot of RP that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
Agreed. Imagine how many slaves Nauplius would've sacrificed succesfully if he'd only shut up about it!
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[mod]I've removed some posts, primarily for violating the guidelines about 'ur doing it wrong'. Its not anyone's job to be RP police. I would strongly encourage people to review the faq, in particular, if they are wondering what appropriate interactions here look like. The RP community is small enough as it is, without making it smaller by attacking people who operate with insufficient RP purity for your tastes. That's one of the main reasons we have that rule, actually! [/mod]
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https://imgur.com/a/IVAd2M4
Some screens of the massacre today if folks like good 'splosions.
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If only there were a space/atmospheric flight combat game, and a FPS squad-based shooter game, and maybe even a tower-defence type mobile game, that were set in the EVE universe, and could be linked in an event connecting player successes/failures with storyline development.
That would go a long way to resolving the questions about orbital/atmospheric mechanics, and ground combat, and what is feasible for capsuleers to do in these kind of scenarios.
Man, that'd be great.
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https://imgur.com/a/IVAd2M4
Some screens of the massacre today if folks like good 'splosions.
Well at least my stupid attempt to destroy Lord Speaker by getting CONCORDed gave a pretty awesome screenshot (https://i.imgur.com/I6Y9szi.png).
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Seriously though, it would be pretty cool, if you could spend PLEX or something, and order up a custom scenario mission for Valkyrie and/or DUST/Nova.
So, like, you want to deploy an army onto the planet, you're going to need space-to-surface missions, and ground forces.
So, you spend a little PLEX, and you can submit a themed scenario to the Valkyrie/Nova mission pool for X days. Convoy Attack/Defence for Valkyrie, say, and Valk players can sign up on whichever side, and do battle.
Like, you'd submit the MISSION, PLANET, OBJECTIVE, ATTACKER, DEFENDER, fields in the submission form, which would provide the Valkyrie and Nova players with context for what they are actually doing, and would set the terrain type and whatnot, which corporations they are acting for the benefit of, and so on.
And then after the X days, the results of the scenario are viewable, and provide some kind of thing to objectively determine what happened.
And this could even tie in somehow with Faction Warfare and/or Sov warfare, and planetary control in that.
Could even work in the industrial side of EVE somehow, producing equipment for all these goings on - like, you'd need to supply X amount of hardware to begin a scenario or something.
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Hell they should release a little 'dice roll' in-game RP tool :P
You know how in some games you can craft or whatever, you put all the items in a blender and you get x out of it?
You could do that, have two opposing players/corps put in 'marines' or 'small arms' or whatever items and set a scenario and have the RP BLENDER roll some dice on a few outcomes you ask for. Boom!
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https://imgur.com/a/IVAd2M4
Some screens of the massacre today if folks like good 'splosions.
Well at least my stupid attempt to destroy Lord Speaker by getting CONCORDed gave a pretty awesome screenshot (https://i.imgur.com/I6Y9szi.png).
I particularly liked that moment! Honestly I was just gutted we didn't have another couple of Khans or Militia in system/nearby or we could have saved the second load of freighters properly. :(
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Congrats to Teinyhr on getting the DED killmail! A nifty feather for your cap. If -10 Sec is in the cards for U'K et cie, it's certainly well earned.
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Congrats to Teinyhr on getting the DED killmail! A nifty feather for your cap. If -10 Sec is in the cards for U'K et cie, it's certainly well earned.
Yeah, wondering if there will be repercussions for that. By all accounts there should be for shooting the popo.
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[21:16:51] Elsebeth Rhiannon > Kala, you freaking race-traitor bastard of a collaborator
Day made tbh.
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Sounds like good times had by all!
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Big thanks to everyone who came! Had an absolute blast. Apologies for my angst in the run up to the event, ultimately it went really well and we all had a lot of fun.
BR: https://br.inyour.space/?s=3873&b=8334420&e=90&t=uveurf
Screenshots I took: https://imgur.com/a/KYjty3c
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Would someone be kind enough to let us lame non-subbers know what happened? Also is that my most favorite Khanid Navy Commodore Arraz Nomarya in an Aeon on the BR? Do tell!
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Also congrats certainly due for getting a bunch of people out to shoot each other and what looks like some actor involvement as well! Well done
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3njTflGMuo
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3njTflGMuo
What is that?! Is that player-created? Or the new SCOPE?
If that's made by players I really want to give them some kudos, what a wonderful, fantastic thing. We used to feel really good about ourselves if we could barely photoshop a single still image of a newscast, this is just really, really nice work. Also I guess they upgraded the graphics of the game? Those missiles and pew pew looked much more dynamic. Neato!
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Yep! That's player-done. :D We've honestly had the stars align over here. Between Jaret Victorian's production work, Cyrillian Voth's and Elinari Rhodan's voice acting and sound work, and camera work from Nomistrav, it's a really amazing thing that's come together.
Today's episode was by a smaller crew, Jaret Victorian on camera and production, and Cyrillian Voth alone on voice and sound, with yours truly doing scripting and a half-dozen people making my bashing-at-a-keyboard something actually usable as a production.
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Also looks like UK came out in force and if not for the RKN supercap overkill probably would have held the field from other players? Well done to them, too.
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Yep! That's player-done. :D We've honestly had the stars align over here. Between Jaret Victorian's production work, Cyrillian Voth's and Elinari Rhodan's voice acting and sound work, and camera work from Nomistrav, it's a really amazing thing that's come together.
Today's episode was by a smaller crew, Jaret Victorian on camera and production, and Cyrillian Voth alone on voice and sound, with yours truly doing scripting and a half-dozen people making my bashing-at-a-keyboard something actually usable as a production.
Not to blow too much smoke up your asses, but that's really just great work, all around.
It takes.... so much time and effort and just willpower to get that kind of thing done for this kind of nerd stuff and it's really nice to see it turn out well.
I hope the players shower you with plex and shinies for spending time on that stuff. Nice work!
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Eh, praise is enough. I've relayed your compliments to the crew. :3
That said, re: the event, honestly the Aeon is about the right scale. Properly, CCP would need to be able to spawn fleets that do the pew as NPCs to do something 'realistic,' so the 'fully armed and operational battlestation supercarrier' angle was about on the mark. After all, as folks indicated here, Capsuleers landing troops en mass is a bit outside the scope of what can really be made to work. But with seventy in local in the arse end of Khanid space, and multiple fleets in field, it worked.
As it stands, the Aeon destroyed the freighter, but the Matari cleared the Amarr and the Aeon withdrew from the field.
The only thing that would've been better is if the Aeon would've been a viable target, because it would've been so bloody delicious if MinMil would've gotten a supercap kill.
Still, given the limitations CCP has, this was a damned good event and props to all that made it happen. :D
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Eh, praise is enough. I've relayed your compliments to the crew. :3
That said, re: the event, honestly the Aeon is about the right scale. Properly, CCP would need to be able to spawn fleets that do the pew as NPCs to do something 'realistic,' so the 'fully armed and operational battlestation supercarrier' angle was about on the mark. After all, as folks indicated here, Capsuleers landing troops en mass is a bit outside the scope of what can really be made to work. But with seventy in local in the arse end of Khanid space, and multiple fleets in field, it worked.
As it stands, the Aeon destroyed the freighter, but the Matari cleared the Amarr and the Aeon withdrew from the field.
The only thing that would've been better is if the Aeon would've been a viable target, because it would've been so bloody delicious if MinMil would've gotten a supercap kill.
Still, given the limitations CCP has, this was a damned good event and props to all that made it happen. :D
Point of confusion here, are they not letting the dev actors have access to the spawn tools like during the Incursion arcs? I really don't know how it works under the hood if it's just the actor jumping in a pre-spawned Aeon or if they can bring in more ships?
For 'lore' reasons I think the Freighter had to die no matter what, but I like UK could hold the field and beat up on the Amarr because they brought more to the fight. That looked like a good sized op turnout from UK.
If I were scripting the event I would have had no RKN there at all to start, just let the capsuleer proxies fight it out. If it were any other scenario the freighter wins and they accomplish their mission, but in this particular lore case I think they have the fight with PIE and friends, and then RKN has to show up, maybe give them a chance to leave so they don't lose ships they don't want to, and then pew pew time.
Now, then again, I would totally run this arc into a larger 'escalation' scenario to give some other loyalists things to do. Say the RKN spawns its ships to kill UK after they hold the field. RKN starts blapping UK ships.
That is precisely the time for some over-eager Federation or Republic forces to ninja their way into the system and start an actual shooting conflict with the Kingdom to try and rescue civilians. It's just far enough removed from Empire proper that it wouldn't be an actual larger war, so many opportunities for politicking from the other factions. You can play it so many different ways, a limited incursion to rescue civilians and then ninja out, or they all get blapped when the rescue goes south and then the Kingdom is howling for war and the Empire has to be realistic and cool it down, lots of fun splinters of plot there.
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So, mechanics-wise, I'm not sure if the old Incursion-era tools just don't work any more, or are very specific to the Sansha ships, orr.... something. Suffice it to say that right now, while we know CCP can spawn NPCs, they're the NPCs elsewhere in the game, and the type and circumstance may be limited. In this case, CCP could spawn customs NPCs, but those basically just sit there.
Notably, the new NPC AI might be a little more versatile, but I don't know if there are plans to allow hooks for live commands of the NPCs. My thought is probably yes, but it might not be anywhere near the front of the line for developer hours. I know CCP spawned what we called deathballs of Drifter battleships in an event series in this last winter/spring, but in k-space they defaulted to their normal k-space AI of, "don't kill things unless it aggresses or is within X distance of Y or Z class of beacon." Of course, that was a fair thing, because even a handful of Drifter battleships will eat unprepared subcapitals for breakfast, and a few dozen Drifter battleships will start eating prepared ships of any type. (1280 DPS per BS, so at 50 you're looking at ~64k DPS, volleying 320k EHP raw every five seconds. So, a brick-tanked apoc every five seconds.)
Naturally, we threw shit-fit Coercers at them in waves.
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I will have some :words: to write about how this all went down later today when I'm free to use my pc. It was a lot of fun and I'm thankful to both sides for showing up.
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If I were scripting the event I would have had no RKN there at all to start, just let the capsuleer proxies fight it out. If it were any other scenario the freighter wins and they accomplish their mission, but in this particular lore case I think they have the fight with PIE and friends, and then RKN has to show up, maybe give them a chance to leave so they don't lose ships they don't want to, and then pew pew time.
This is originally what happened, but because the Amarr fleet was outnumbered they held off for awhile. RKN started landing forces, including the Aeon, and eventually the Aeon started firing on the freighter. That was the opportunity the Amarr fleet used to try and even the odds, and they warped in and engaged at that time.
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Also looks like UK came out in force and if not for the RKN supercap overkill probably would have held the field from other players? Well done to them, too.
So basically I knew the Amarr side were going to really struggle with numbers from the start. The 11 combat ships we ended up with was about 6 more than I expected :D
Pre-match conversation with Armast suggested U'K were expecting somewhere in the ~10 people range, so the 28 (13 combat BS, 3 Nestors, 5 Exeqs + 2 neutral leshaks) they arrived with was also a considerably larger form than anticipated. And, frankly, way too much for the Amarr side to contest. Especially with 3 Nestors as logi. So full props to them for an impressive form up.
So with us formed up on the neutral freeport Raitaru and Minmil on their own citadel, things were ready to go. They warped their fleet including the freighter off to an on-grid ping, and began parading it around. The Khanid event actors and Oveg Drust showed up as well, and set the minmatar fleet suspect, as well as spawning the first wave of NPCs, a group of Omens (Zealots?). However at this point I still had no intention of engaging.
(https://i.imgur.com/vq0qIls.png)
This was followed shortly by a group of NPC Armageddons, and then finally the Khanid Aeon.
(https://i.imgur.com/qppWzim.png)
At this point we decide to engage with the Amarr fleet, warping ourselves to a Typhoon that had separated itself from the main Minmatar fleet. What follows is a rather hectic brawl where the Minmatar Nestors attempt to keep the freighter alive against the Aeon's heavy fighters, while the Exequrors rep the Typhoons brawling with our Abaddons. We burn through a few Typhoons and Exeqs, as well as a Navy Cane and a Firetail (a Minmil Astarte is also Concorded here, possibly to even the numbers to 1 link ship per side?), while losing a Navy Harbinger and Armageddon of our own.
Things begin to turn against us, as first Diana's Abaddon drops after tanking almost a quarter of a million damage, followed quickly by the destruction of the Minmatar freighter. This frees up the Nestors, and they warp down to the main body of the brawl. Minmil's second Astarte is also Concorded here. I call to extract, knowing from this point on we absolutely can't break anything. Another Abaddon and 3/4 Guardians are tackled and killed. An Abaddon, an Apoc Navy, a Geddon, a Guardian, and a Damnation all escape. The Apoc and Abaddon would then go back in on their own, to their deaths :P
Minmil hold the field, and now somehow actually have more than they started with (now 14 combat BS, 3 Nestors, 7 Exequrors). The Khanid Aeon warps down to the neutral freeport and tethers. Minmil then gank Oveg Drust's Marshal.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/r3hlxpp2i0llh2e/2018-11-05_20-13-05.mp4
Things are called on our part, and the fleet is over. Talking happens in local.
Everyone was very sporting, U'K delaying their start time by almost an hour allowing a few more Amarr to arrive. Good fun was had by all (I think), and it was very much worth the isk invested.
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Thanks so much for the writeup! Good work for all participants. I had to look up what a Nestor was, neato. Also the devs did spawn npc attack ships, that's -very cool -
Makes me sad not to be there....to shoot at -everyone-
By the by, there does seem to be an awfully low amount of uh, blood raiders for a blood raider plot? Terror bombings usually have a goal in mind?
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Minmil hold the field, and now somehow actually have more than they started with (now 14 combat BS, 3 Nestors, 7 Exequrors).
Arrived late. I was literally rebuilding the computer as things were going on after having waited a week and a half for the new motherboard to arrive. Only arrived in time to tackle and kill Kithrus (SFRIM/ARC not being at war with most on grid), then snag/whore the Aldrith Killmail.
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By the by, there does seem to be an awfully low amount of uh, blood raiders for a blood raider plot? Terror bombings usually have a goal in mind?
Omir has been awfully silent this year. Probably for the best, makes him actually feel like a serious villain.
Also the goal is probably to create chaos in Amarr. Which they're doing a very good job of.
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Gotta say this whole Kahah thing has been phenomenal really, altough might entirely coincidental, you guys roused Graelyn from his slumber, people have been all over this bit of news happening, and the Operation Starfall by all accounts seems to have been a success with both sides fielding more pilots than they expected.
Additionally backstage has been more active than it has been in months if not in a couple of years. All in all, my thanks to CCP and all the players who've been involved in this so far.
The Kahah situation is not entirely over I think, but looks like CCP is wrapping it up by their latest newsposts mentioning that only Kahah III still has some active rebel cells active and most interlopers have been killed off.
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Now the Crimson Harvest and the Deathglow event is over I imagine it will be wrapped up fairly soon, yep.
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https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/kahah-situation-escalates-to-mass-violence-in-space-khanid-forces-and-concord-respond/
Extremely interesting!
It would seem our news writers share the general opinion about landing craft / planetary assault, etc but I think this was handled well by everyone on all fronts.
Also interesting that they spoke to the slave / freighter suiciding?
I'm personally happy that Kingdom stuff was getting this much attention, but this is the most active I've seen them on the RP front for a long time? And backstage in general, to boot.
Did we even get any Omir mustache-twirling at the end of 'crimson harvest' *eyeroll*
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Honestly, I'm with Sami on the Omir thing: having Blood Raiders set off a crisis and then creep into the background, watching gleefully as the Empire tears at its own faults...? Much creepier than Omir striding around, laughing with cartoon villainy.
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Honestly, I'm with Sami on the Omir thing: having Blood Raiders set off a crisis and then creep into the background, watching gleefully as the Empire tears at its own faults...? Much creepier than Omir striding around, laughing with cartoon villainy.
Were they hinting that one of the Khanid npcs had blooder ties or something as well?
I'm always generally happy the less we see and/or hear from Omir, as well.
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It's long been implied that the Khanid might have ties with blooders (Cruor police ships). Specifically with regards to the Khanid NPC, Alar Chakaid was the guy who picked Khanid's succession trial candidates for champion, and one of those was an out-and-out blooder character. This was pointed out, and it became a big scandal, but he stood behind the decision (and the Imperial succession trial coordinator backed him up, which raised red flags).
Furthermore, when that scandal was brought up a few weeks ago, he responded with threats and within a few days both of the people that had been accusing him had had their families bombed with Deathglow attacks.
Either he's aligned with the blooders, or they used the opportunity to make it look like he had in order to create chaos between the Empire, Kingdom, and Mandate (and also between the Amarr bloc and the Republic and Federation blocs).
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Well, it does look like the Amarr Empire and the Khanid Kingdom got played pretty hard.
I mean at the end of the day a hell of a lot of damage was done. Diplomatically, everything has gone to hell, bridges between Minmatar and Amarr capsuleers got quite thoroughly burned, and materially several planets got massacred, causing God knows (pun intended) how much material damage to the settlements and resulting in God knows how many Khanid deaths who got caught in the crossfire, many many Amarr ships got wrecked, especially in the final battle, along with some Khanid navy vessels (including a general, hahah!) and an ungodly (pun intended again) number of civilian vessels who where trying to help.
There is also considerable damage to the Minmatar, but far less, to be sure, as most capsuleers employ mercenaries and the Rens attack ultimately cost "only" twenty-three or so lives. There was that fleet lost. But that, along with the freighter and troops, wasn't even paid for by Minmatar forces, but was bankrolled by an -Ammatar-, an Amarr vassal. It also took a ton of Amarr assets down with it along with-...
..Oh yeah. The very authority of CONCORD itself got defied with the loss of a CONCORD battleship.
As far as sowing chaos goes, it literally could not have gone any better. It's bound to have ripple effects for a long time to come in the form of retaliatory strikes by both sides and an ever decreasing respect for the laws governing capsuleers in the first place.
And on that note I am convinced that the party responsible for the Deathglow IS chakaid, because the Khanid danced so thoroughly to a Blooder Tune, it seems inconceivable that they would have if the person directing them was not in on the conspiracy from the start.
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A lot of the Amarr ships weren't paid for by the Amarr either :D
Total Amarr losses in the fight over the freighter were less than 1b.
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If "who paid x for y ships" is a metric, then battle reports go entirely out the window to begin with. The name of the wallet is quite a bit less important than the tags on the ships in space. Minmatar vs Amarr in this particular case. I haven't seen any real breakdowns on isk efficiency so far, but when both sides seem to feel the need to pad their numbers or throw goalposts around, something's not entirely on the up and up.
There's only two real metrics of this event: The Freighter died and the operation failed, so strategic victory for the Amarr. On the flip side, the Amarr capsuleer fleet might as well not have been there as it had exactly zero impact on the outcome of events and primarily existed to be blown up and sent packing off the field by the vastly superior Minmatar numbers/strength.
There's really no need for either side to start massaging the chain of events in any way, but apparently there's a LOT of it happening both IC and OOC from what I can tell.
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The Khanid Customs NPCs might have reacted if the Minmatar ships had been carrying Small Arms in their cargoholds, as that's one of the relatively few items that's illegal in Khanid space, but also readily available and cheap.
Might even have been something that would have worked IC quite well - the NPCs would issue the "hand over your cargo or be fired on" warning as usual, and everyone goes "no, lol", and then the ships start opening fire.
Although I'm not sure if the Khanid Customs battleships scan ships for illegal cargo, or if that's the smaller Khanid Customs ships - the cruor hull ones.
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Eve battle reports and after action smacktalk are the United States political spin of gaming. You can have one clearly demonstrable set of facts where one sided kills 100% of the enemy ships and you'll still get 45 different spins on what -actually- happened and why the losing side -really- won if you think about it right. No one ever loses, there's always 'circumstances' that caused a temporary setback, rather than a straight-up ass kicking like we all get once and a while and have to learn how to deal with :)
War never changes :)
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I would just like to again give kudos to everyone involved in making this work out so well, and bitch and moan because I had the shot on that damned Aeon after his fighters shot me, but he ran away and tethered when I started spooling up the damage, then despawned when I began bumping him. GRR.
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Greetings!
The person to thank is mainly Armast Darkar as he came up with the idea and provided everything we needed. We just showed up and got into the ships. And then of course nothing would have realy happend without all the players from both sides taking part.
Our ppl realy enjoyed the whole event and many are somewhat hyped about rp content right now. I´ll try to follow up with a few things from our side in the near future and be active here. It seems I have an account here since 2015... so time to use it I guess.
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[Harkon Thorson is online]
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I really enjoyed reading this arc and watching the drama unfold. I think you should all be very proud of what you have achieved, and the heightened interest in RP events.
Sadly, my new time zone (grr) made it difficult to engage with any of the events, but I really enjoyed what you all accomplished.
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As I am the mastermind behind Operation Starfall (and therefore responsible for a lot of the headaches and controversy, here), I thought it might be a good idea for me to step in and take responsibility.
First, I would like to thank everyone who participated. The event would have been a failure if not for many things coming together in less than 96 hours. As Harkon said above, but to put a different spin on it, I was the one who provided the ships and staging, but without pilots for those assets, the event would have basically just been me solo piloting a freighter and dying. A bunch of hulls sitting in a hangar don't tell a very compelling story (or make for impressive screenshots) so, really, none of this could have gotten off the ground without Ferra, Harkon, Ushra'Khan, and those Minmatar roleplayers who decided to take a chance with us—and conversely, the Amarr loyalist roleplayers who decided to fight us despite being outnumbered. And of course, CCP, for being amazing and deploying three NPC actors, two of whom were in ships that could be attacked and destroyed (maybe we could have snagged the Aeon with another 100 Typhoons).
Secondly, and getting to the heart of the controversy, from the beginning, I was always operating with the assumption that the IC impact of the operation would be very small. Before putting everything into motion, I sent a message to ISD about what I was trying to achieve, which was basically instigate a space battle and try to create an inclusive stage for people who might be intimidated by IGS posting or channel roleplay. The best idea I could come up with under the time constraints (this was around four days before the official end of the "Crimson Harvest") was a freighter-in-militia.
However, the freighter, initially, was not supposed to survive. The concept was that: If Minmatar militia held the grid, Armast would declare that the Khanid air defenses were too strong and would initiate a self-destruct on the freighter, the debris from which might allow some small shuttles and atmospheric-capable SOE craft (as was hinted to in an earlier article) to smuggle slaves, rebels, prisoners of war, or refugees from the surface of the planet for a short period of time. And if Amarr militia held the grid, the freighter would have been destroyed and thus no "landings" could ever really take place.
Admittedly, after Ushra'Khan and GMVA got on board, I got a little full of myself and did an upward revision in a second message to ISD but they only replied to my first proposal and did so with only 24 hours left before Operation Starfall was scheduled to commence.
At the end of the day, based on my initial idea, the concept of capsuleer-backed armies landing on a sovereign planet wasn't really going to be tested. I chose not to reveal this to anyone (sorry Ferra and Harkon :( ) because I wanted the story to feel open-ended even if in reality it wasn't going to be. I hope that no one thinks that was manipulative of me to employ that touch of misdirection and if they do I apologize. I just felt that revealing the possible low-impact outcomes would have cheapened the stakes, reduced responses, and compromised the story—all to the detriment of what ended up being a fun event. I wanted to maintain the spontaneity of EVE pilots as much as I possibly could until the very last moment before I needed to initiate a self-destruct. Fun fact: I was just about to have Armast type that the aerial defenses were too strong (as our fleet was pretty large and it looked unlikely the Amarr fleet would engage us on their own volition when so heavily outnumbered) when the Ushra'Khan pilots called that an Aeon was on grid. As it stands, CCP and those Amarr loyalists who warped to grid saved the day but it was a really big gamble and I recognize that.
As an aside, I believe that IC a character can make exaggerated, grandiose, and overambitious claims. Further, I do not believe that storylines or ideas should require OOC submission for vetting, approval, or feedback outside of contact to ISD or CCP when a story begins to skirt what is lore-acceptable. That all said, while I do believe that it was possible for some sort of landing to take place if in a weakened state, I did not expect that the landing would be very successful if it at all occurred. And certainly nowhere near the extent that Armast was claiming in the "Operation Starfall" thread. Nonetheless, Armast, in-character, could make the claim and lay out his entire plan, no matter how outrageous or unlikely.
Thankfully, CCP answered the question of the landing for us.
Armast is a businessman, not a soldier. There were many flaws in his plan and he is coming to terms with that. I hope that you can be patient with me as I develop him through his flaws, failures, and (hopefully) successes as I continue to explore his story.
Anyway, any animosity or heated exchanges that occurred in this thread and elsewhere are because of my idea. I take full responsibility for my idea and own it, and again, apologize if there was any appearance that my goal was to shatter the lore of Empire navies and ground forces.
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From what I have read on various forums and in game channels I would say your event was a great success.
Kind of sorry I stayed out of it to be honest.
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10/10 would welp again.