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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 11 Jun 2018, 15:55

Title: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Louella Dougans on 11 Jun 2018, 15:55
I've not really been involved lately, so I don't have a good overview of things, but:

what direction is the eve storyline going ? because I can't seem to get a grip on things.

Faction warfare is kind of going nowhere, incursions are a dull roar in the background, most pirate factions are seasonal events now, and the Drifters seem to be a bit sidelined by these new Triglavians.

It feels a bit kind of weird. Like, I can't seem to get interested in the whole Drifter thing, and this Triglavian thing doesn't seem to grab my attention either.

And it's like, past couple expansions, have introduced factions that might as well be aliens, and the only interaction possible is to shoot them.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Samira Kernher on 11 Jun 2018, 18:40
EVE seems to be getting taken into a space opera/adventure theme these days instead of its original cyberpunk. It's a shame, and has killed a lot of my interest.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 11 Jun 2018, 21:04
Couldn't tell you. I doze off halfway into the first few paragraphs whenever there's something about the Trilobyte Clans and Derp Jove and so on. There's ways to make "ancient forebears/offshoots of humanity" interesting in a setting, but this isn't it.

There's no feeling of conflict that can be invested in, there's no feeling of "this matters to me and my people". It's just... "welp, New Eden's suddenly inundated with strange new ways for capsuleers to go blow up non-capsuleers for money. Again. And again. It's almost as if the world is entirely static now, occasionally getting an expansion pack with new dungeons and raids OGOD I'M SO SORRY I DIDN'T EVEN SEE THAT FOURTH WALL IT WAS SO THIN AND TRANSPARENT OGOD OGOD I GOT DUCT TAPE I CAN FIX THIS SHIT SHIT SHIT" and so on.

I was all excited when they started killing off the TonyG bullshit, but now I'm regretting that horribly, as it turns out they had nothing to replace it with. Ominous Stock Alien Villain Category #4: Silent Overwhelming Force and Stock Mysterious Ancient Offshoot Variant #12: The Clans do absolutely nothing to keep the main universe alive. It does nothing to advance the story of New Eden. The Tribes. The Federation. The State. The Empire. The Serpentis. The Angels. The Sansh... okay, those got fucked right good and proper even before they got started on TonyG's nonsense. The entire damn setting for a god damned decade has been laid fallow, and all we got to show for it are some new god damn dungeons that are incapable of being interesting even from just a gameplay perspective.

I'm so fucking bored with Eve at the moment. There's nothing left in it that's even remotely interesting to dig into conflict wise, or story wise.

Edit: Someone else put it brilliantly. "EVE is showing what happens when you don't have a story team. It means your game becomes incredibly shallow."
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Louella Dougans on 12 Jun 2018, 12:20
It does nothing to advance the story of New Eden. The Tribes. The Federation. The State. The Empire. The Serpentis. The Angels. The Sansh... okay, those got fucked right good and proper even before they got started on TonyG's nonsense.

I guess that's fairly true. The drifters though, did something to change the Empire, in that it resulted in a new Empress, one of Udorian heritage, which was a fairly profound change in the Amarr establishment. But the drifter incursion things... they kind of fizzled out, didn't they ? Existential threat that the Empire is about to go to war with, turns out not to be existential threat after all. okay.

But the Triglavians, it's like... CONCORD says go shoot them. The SoE says go explore the Abyss. okay but why ? what reason is there to do that, other than fun and profit, which can also be obtained elsewhere ?


Pirate factions - the Angle Cartle, is now the valentines day event, isn't it ? Sansha's Nation is the permanent comic book "I'll get you next time" recursion incursions, Blood raiders are the halloween event, Guristas the easter event, Serpentis are rolled into the cartel for the valentines day event. So... they all get handed the idiot ball regularly.

I find it kind of hard to take the pirate factions (and their player supporters) seriously, when the factions are all a clownshow for at least 1 month of the year. Which kind of saps my attachment to the primary factions - Louella the character tries to work towards religious reform of the Empire, but when the alleged threats to the Empire don't feel like genuine threats, then it's like... why am I doing this ?

I dunno, maybe I'm just at a low point mentally or something ?
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 12 Jun 2018, 12:37
Eve's at a low point, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Korsavius on 12 Jun 2018, 14:51
Hmm what to say that hasn't been said yet already...I will add on that I, too, have no interest in the whole Jove/Drifter/Endhuehueuhe/Triglav story arc CCP seems intent on pushing. My interest in EVE sparked with the grimdark and cyberpunk atmosphere of the main empires and various subfactions.

I try to do what I can with the other peeps in I-RED to promote this original fantasy, but alas, there is only so much we can do to fill in for what CCP has left in the dust. S'all good though, we can still find ways to have our fun :)
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 13 Jun 2018, 13:45
Someone else put it brilliantly. "EVE is showing what happens when you don't have a story team. It means your game becomes incredibly shallow."

Yup.

Incidentally I was recently discussing similar with Revan in another venue, it's a real shame that CCP decided to flush it's IP down the toilet. 

Have you seen the fucking Cyberpunk 2077 videos? Look what they can do with an old IP given proper treatment by people who give a shit.  One must weep when they think of what World of Darkness could have been.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 13 Jun 2018, 13:50
Yeah, that was literally one of my first thoughts on Cyberpunk 2077's E3 trailer. "This is what Eve could be inspiring in the minds of the players." It's basically Eve: Dirtside for me. Gods I can't wait for that game, every article about that 'behind locked doors' 50 minute demo almost got me gibbering with excitement about it.

Eve has such amazing potential as a setting and a game world, but nope. Seasonal ratting events and Derp Jove/Spaceballs Clans. Woohoo.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 13 Jun 2018, 13:54
I think this might be a case of something not knowing it's already dead?

They've kind of found the minimal dev input to keep the plex train / whales going and will farm it out until the point it becomes unprofitable.  Literally every spinoff CCP has tried to do has crashed and they keep doing the same things wrong.

Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 13 Jun 2018, 14:05
Don't even particularly care about the spin-offs. They're fucking the main franchise up by forgetting what the fuck it once was. It was about New Eden and its gloriously "dystopian heaven" setting where you and the rest of the mad gods got to be great and small kings and wastrels in a living cluster, watching it happen around you as time passed.

Four superpowers clashing, skirmishing here, forging peace behind glassy smiles there while the guns were drawn under the table, Insorum bombing someone, heirs invading feds and so on and so forth. The universe lived. Now it's... static. Even nuking the god damned Empress did nothing. It's the exact same status quo.

I know this is rosy tinted glasses. Little actually changed in the past either, but it somehow managed to pretend that it could. It kept up the illusion. The powers felt like they could flex muscles and do something. I think it's safe to say that right now, New Eden feels quite simply like a game, not a world.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 13 Jun 2018, 16:32
One of the silly things is that iirc they have a lot of new AI tools for NPCs to do all sorts of dynamic things; I imagine they could script all sorts of neato torpedo npc events in space and background all over the place.    But it really is no reward for them to waste time on this kind of thing with the current playerbase and direction of the game.   Ten years ago maybe.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Vlad Cetes on 13 Jun 2018, 21:46
The question I look at this is: Is there anything out there that does it better that is actually released?
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 14 Jun 2018, 00:38
Only piecemeal or singleplayer, from what I can tell. Ironically, the ancient X3TC feels infinitely more alive than Eve at the moment. Funnily enough, Star Citizen is starting to actually look good. Imagine my surprise when I see they actually make progress with that game. If they don't make the massive mistake E:D did and let you pop in and out of the multiplayer part at will, it could actually be exactly what Eve should have been.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Samira Kernher on 14 Jun 2018, 00:46
Only piecemeal or singleplayer, from what I can tell. Ironically, the ancient X3TC feels infinitely more alive than Eve at the moment. Funnily enough, Star Citizen is starting to actually look good. Imagine my surprise when I see they actually make progress with that game. If they don't make the massive mistake E:D did and let you pop in and out of the multiplayer part at will, it could actually be exactly what Eve should have been.

Unfortunately, unless things have changed, that's exactly what they're going to be doing.

Quote
Yeah, that was literally one of my first thoughts on Cyberpunk 2077's E3 trailer. "This is what Eve could be inspiring in the minds of the players." It's basically Eve: Dirtside for me. Gods I can't wait for that game, every article about that 'behind locked doors' 50 minute demo almost got me gibbering with excitement about it.

How I felt when playing Battletech. "This is basically EVE but the capsuleers use giant stompy robots instead of ships."

EVE's just let all its potential evaporate. Sigh.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: MakotoPriano on 14 Jun 2018, 12:39
So, shockingly, I'm going to disagree a little bit. ;)

Let me first say: god, yes, I want more factional shenanigans going on. I'd *kill* for pre-TEA-style cold war maneuvering, Cyberpunk-y corporate espionage, shady happenings that don't devolve to "GRR HAT <opposing faction>" but instead allow for nuanced positioning and ideological debate within factions.

That said, one of the issues we face is that once plot is written into game mechanics, it becomes a fixed point. After all, changing incursions, FW, etc, would potentially destroy existing and fairly major niches in the game, in addition to soaking up tons of development time and being incredibly risky for CCP. This isn't to say they shouldn't do it; clearly, FW is in need of a massive re-work, and the incursion system needs some major changes also, so on. However, it means that CCP can only move so far away from 'GRR HAT <opposing faction>' before preservation of game mechanics starts to constrain them. Already, we see this happening: the State and Federation have open borders and trade happening, even as GalMil and CalMil pewpew each other. Somehow, FIO's still operating black sites in Black Rise after all these years. Ohai, a Minmatar head of state went to an Amarr coronation thing. That all seems a bit odd in the context of unending border skirmishes.

Of course, CCP has made an effort to try to make space more dynamic, but it runs into a number of issues. The NPC mining fleets were an early trial for adding dynamism, but didn't seem to be well-received as the balance of risk/reward was badly skewed. Part of this is CCP's being overly cautious about payouts, as they want to avoid excessive injection into the economy. Part of this was also CCP not really being sure how players would interact with or fight the NPCs, and wanting to avoid a situation where they'd be easily cheesed/farmed.

That said, for those who don't feel strongly about 'GRR HAT <opposing faction>' stuff, Drifters, Triglavians, Rogue Drones, etc, give us something to play with. For me, Drifter shenanigans were a logical extension of my love for exploration gameplay and lore diving. It's fun! But I do agree that because it's easier, and is tied with CCP's feature expansion, the non-factional lore stuff has forced factional stuff out of view.

In my ideal world, there'd be at least a couple or few news articles a month for factional stuff, on top of the feature-driven lore development. Ideally, the Scope would come back on a monthly or at least seasonal basis, with tickers being used to plant seeds for story ideas, give the illusion of a changing world, and so on.

In the meanwhile, we do what we do. vOv
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 14 Jun 2018, 13:16
That said, one of the issues we face is that once plot is written into game mechanics, it becomes a fixed point. After all, changing incursions, FW, etc, would potentially destroy existing and fairly major niches in the game

Nah, these are no more fixed points than any other development in a world. The only reason they're stuck is because they tried to make games out of these plot development rather than a world, which got the actual story progression equally stuck. The whole Sansha nonsense was so promising early on, then it turns out it was just a fucking excuse for the latest "raid" and they painted themselves into a corner where they couldn't actually finish the storyline without killing the raid. Sansha is thus stuck in herpaderp mode unable to progress or fail. The exact same thing is what we've been seeing with all the story developments since.

This is wholly unnecessary and downright lazy. There's no reason not to make things like these at the very least cyclical. They've got the mechanics and scripts set up, so there's no reason they can't finish the Sansha storyline and kill off Incursions for six months and then with not much effort replace it with a new storyline with another faction etc, utilizing a similar mechanic for the bears to farm for a while before that storyline is concluded etc.

Faction Warfare doesn't at all have to be the way it is. You can shake it up massively with political developments in New Eden. Suddenly the relations sour between former allies and it turns into a four way for a while. Then six months later the politics change and now it's a 3v1, later a 2v2, then 3v1 then free-for-all and so on and so forth as the story demands. Let the world decide what the mechanics need to be, as the world develops. Add in more sov mechanics to make it matter and utilizing lowsec becomes attractive to players, rather than just the pewpew deep end in between highsec and nullsec bearing.

It wouldn't destroy anything. It'd disrupt it. Shake up the sandbox so all the old stale and fucking boring sandcastles that are taking up all the space gets knocked down and players can build new ones and have reason to actually fucking do shit.

Nope. Trilbyhats and Derp Jove, in a stagnant and dead New Eden.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 14 Jun 2018, 13:26
Devs have all the tools they need for boosting NPC and NPC / Player content.

The only real issue is that ccp has been perma-cowed and frightened into not "upsetting" their 0.0 masters or carebear ratting players.

If they were remotely interested in keeping the game interesting they would have to be willing to disrupt both high and null sec, and they won't do it.

-Dynamic security status for systems based on plotstm.  Oh no Jita getting blockaded, oh no Amarr under attack/whatever. Opportunities for both sides and third sides and cunning marketers all over for a million different plots.

-NPC death gangs representing factions and empires to kick over sandcastles and cause headaches.   Like our man zorg says, you gotta smash it all up into little pieces and then look at all the activity that generates.  That they've let null blocks be this static and un-smashed and poisoning the core gameplay for 15 years is beyond stupid. 

Basic choose your own adventure A or B plots to effect game world.  Think the Caldari Titan event but an actual different plot for A or B side winning.  Writers could spend hell, one day plotting out a tree of A/B events and spawn basic NPC fleets to get the ball rolling.  None of these concepts are new in gaming, from escort missions to seek and destroy to defend the castle.  Just add NPCs and players and go from there.

Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Nissui on 14 Jun 2018, 15:17
The only real issue is that ccp has been perma-cowed and frightened into not "upsetting" their 0.0 masters or carebear ratting players.

My suspicion is that, some time ago (maybe during Dust development?), CCP took on a lot of outside investment in order to keep its financials viable. They steered some uncertain waters, took some losses, but reached something approaching a profitable business model with modern monetization. However, in the process they inherited a monkey which is now planted firmly on their back: shareholder ROI.

So... to use Miz's term, disrupting the playerbase with content that is perceived as world-changing is likely looked on by the holders of the purse strings as provocative in the face of a niche playerbase that is prone to revolt. I think they, not players, are the ultimate source of CCP trepidation.

With stuff like IP lore and world news now an afterthought, all I can say with regard to the OP is that personal storylines and science-based fanfic are the last bastions of interest for yours truly. There are still organizations and players who can make those things accessible and fun.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Louella Dougans on 15 Jun 2018, 10:47
That said, for those who don't feel strongly about 'GRR HAT <opposing faction>' stuff, Drifters, Triglavians, Rogue Drones, etc, give us something to play with.

Yeah, but, I guess my feelings are more like...

Okay, the Drifters - they shot Empress Jamyl, and attacked the Empire, okay there's a reason to engage them and interact with the content there - Retribution and all that. Which is fair enough.

The Triglavians, it's like... if they're at war with the Drifters, they might be an ally to the Empire. Maybe. But, in any case, there's not been much official word from the Imperial authorities on whether they are friend or foe.

And a lot of stuff recently seems to be behind impenetrable deep conspiracies that are only hinted at in chronicles and stuff - the SoE, CONCORD, the Drifters, the Drones, the Triglavians, they're all Up To Something™, and whatever it is, it's wrapped in a lot of enigmas and mysteries.

I think I'm not smart enough to make any sense of it, it all turns to mush that I don't understand. I'm too dumb to follow people's lines of thought on the conspiracies, even when it's explained several times over.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 15 Jun 2018, 11:08
That's because there's nothing to really build a conspiracy around. At this point, I'm reasonably sure CCP doesn't have it anywhere near locked down, because they're giving too little to even make it interesting and mysterious. Thus, any 'conspiracy theory', no matter how Charlie, will inevitably fall somewhere on the infinitely long spectrum of "wholly believable" to "batfuck insane" and be perfectly fucking valid for all we know.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/images/600x600/15956180/charlie-day-conspiracy.jpg)

This is something that's tricky to do in games, granted, but there have been vastly better examples elsewhere. For a 'mystery' to be engaging in games like these, they need to be fed a little here and there, and eventually resolved. Otherwise, it's more like a rash than a caress, in terms of how it deals with players. Worse yet, it has to have a commensurate pay-off, or it will just serve to generate disappointed backlash.

Now drink your Ovaltine.

Hahaaah, what am I saying? It's already in the chemtrails, suckas.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: MakotoPriano on 15 Jun 2018, 14:52
Certainly agreed that there could be more done to provide in-world knowledge of what the Triglavian Collective is, and why the empires went into, "BURN IT ALL DOWN!" mode over it. The relative lack of in-world news the recent past doesn't help.

Really, almost all we have is from the tickers in the extra-long Scope they did a while back.

Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 17 Jun 2018, 11:22
The latest little IGS conversation with Aria reminded me of something else, and I confirmed it with someone else to confirm it's not just me having too skewed an outlook.

This kind of "grand outsider threat" storyline is never going to properly work. It's just not doable, sans unfathomable advances in AI and so on, because they're represented by NPCs. If there's one thing an NPC is never going to truly be in this game, it's a viable threat. Yeah, add some weird-ass limitations (you can only fight this in a frigate! You can only enter here in a X Class Ship etc) and it means you'll have to be slightly past the level of 'concussed marmot' in order to take it on, but quite literally the only threat NPCs will ever realistically pose to a player is numbers or ridiculous plot armor. So these grand terrible threats get wiped out in droves by suicide dessies, or slaughtered by the dozen in HACs and whatever else at a ratio of omfgsomanydead to one. The fairly sizable Sansha fleets are on farm with nary a casualty, the Drifters have been 'solved' and Abyssal Space is spelunked thoroughly by solo pilots within a bunch of already imposed limitations.

These aren't believable threats. They never will be.

"Original Eve" dealt with this fact by setting into lore that capsuleers are the pinnacle of combat capability. This worked, because the 'threat' if any was other nations/factions with capsuleers of their own. In any combat scenario versus the Empire, Miz herself would be on the lookout for PIE etc because they're the believable threats that make the enemy something to worry about. In a combat scenario where the Republic was up against the Driftglavisanshas, Miz'd barely bother paying attention. They're not capsuleers, they're cannon fodder.

Basically, this explains to me why I never was able to ever take these storylines seriously at all. There's no believable threat or conflict to be had, when a single capsuleer is vastly more dangerous than anything an NPC can ever be. This is why I feel these woOooOooOoo spoopy Derp Jove/Trilobyte storylines are massive mistakes as far as Eve's direction goes. Not only is it departing heavily from the kind of Cyberpunk but in Space feel Eve once had, it's vastly less believable, immersive and interesting than continuing the progress in the storylines of the New Eden factions themselves.

Quite simply because all of those can be actual threats, while the NPCs never will simply because anything we'll eventually put on farm is demonstrably toothless compared to even a single enemy egger with a scram.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 17 Jun 2018, 11:46
Won't lie: you lot are making it real hard to want to even poke my head back in.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 17 Jun 2018, 11:49
Yeah, you might as well wait for Star Citizen. They got Ventures now.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 17 Jun 2018, 12:16
I heard about that one, and it definitely did not endear RSI or Scam Citizen to me at all.

I'm good where I am. At least I didn't go full retard and dump money into Bless.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Korsavius on 17 Jun 2018, 12:49
Don't let all these sad and grr thoughts get to you morlags, come visit us soon  :cube:

EVE still has certain gems in it in terms of RP, although most of those gems are player-made or player-led (which I'm totally fine with).
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 17 Jun 2018, 17:32
Minor point to contest about above; the entire playerbase represents -independent- capsuleers who have gotten their pilot's licenses and who may go back and work for empires (loyalists, mission runners, etc), but aren't necessarily in the empire navies proper. 

The NPC navies have thousands of capsuleers we don't ever interact with, and that's not who you are pew pewing for missions or belt rats or whatever, usually just the dev actors who are actual other capsuleers.  It's why you can kill hundreds of baseliner ships without breaking a sweat, you are going up against baseliner ships and crews.   

Limitations in the dev toolkits and mission scripting from the beginning of the game probably have more to do with this than plotting, etc.  Gotta make your player feel big and strong pew pewing lots of ships and blowing them up.

The way the lore USED to be, and I'm not up on things lately, was that the entire eve playerbase and all the 0.0 power blocs represented a tiny fraction of actual empire navies and their capabilities.  IE if the Caldari State wants to go shit on Cloud Ring or Querious or whatever, whatever player bloc goonbearhoneyswarmwhatever would be easily brushed aside (according to old lore).  I think they've retconned this a bit over the years like the null blocs are now suddenly scurry and strong enough to scare the empires?

That never made any sense to me, none of the 4 empires would train a bunch of capsuleers and say 'hey go have fun and multiply and challenge our rule.'

I always reasoned that by signing the Yulai accords, the empires all agreed to 'release' a tiny portion of their capsuleer graduates as independents. 

It's like if you today got trained by the US AirForce for years and they spend millions of dollars on you to fly jets they dont let you graduate and then hop on the first flight to mercenary life and fly for the Taliban or whatever.

But  :psyccp:  gotta goose the null egos



Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Vlad Cetes on 17 Jun 2018, 20:06
Minor point to contest about above; the entire playerbase represents -independent- capsuleers who have gotten their pilot's licenses and who may go back and work for empires (loyalists, mission runners, etc), but aren't necessarily in the empire navies proper. 

The NPC navies have thousands of capsuleers we don't ever interact with, and that's not who you are pew pewing for missions or belt rats or whatever, usually just the dev actors who are actual other capsuleers.  It's why you can kill hundreds of baseliner ships without breaking a sweat, you are going up against baseliner ships and crews.   

Limitations in the dev toolkits and mission scripting from the beginning of the game probably have more to do with this than plotting, etc.  Gotta make your player feel big and strong pew pewing lots of ships and blowing them up.

The way the lore USED to be, and I'm not up on things lately, was that the entire eve playerbase and all the 0.0 power blocs represented a tiny fraction of actual empire navies and their capabilities.  IE if the Caldari State wants to go shit on Cloud Ring or Querious or whatever, whatever player bloc goonbearhoneyswarmwhatever would be easily brushed aside (according to old lore).  I think they've retconned this a bit over the years like the null blocs are now suddenly scurry and strong enough to scare the empires?

That never made any sense to me, none of the 4 empires would train a bunch of capsuleers and say 'hey go have fun and multiply and challenge our rule.'

I always reasoned that by signing the Yulai accords, the empires all agreed to 'release' a tiny portion of their capsuleer graduates as independents. 

It's like if you today got trained by the US AirForce for years and they spend millions of dollars on you to fly jets they dont let you graduate and then hop on the first flight to mercenary life and fly for the Taliban or whatever.

But  :psyccp:  gotta goose the null egos

Definitely true back in the old school days. I wish they would release some Civilization esque lore (what the empires expenditures are (broken down), how much they produce, where/how they do most of their mining).
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 18 Jun 2018, 00:16
I think they've retconned this a bit over the years like the null blocs are now suddenly scurry and strong enough to scare the empires?

It's the natural evolution of things. The Empires are largely at peace. Have a few decades of the Military eggers getting to sit in their sims and follow rote doctrine, while the outer regions and lowsec are downright churning with perpetual warfare, development and you'll end up with decades of experience and innovation versus the stagnant and undeveloped military capsuleers. They acknowledged this in the fluff text of Force Auxiliaries, that they were created as a result of the experience and combat developments in null overshadowing the Empires in warfare skill and experience.

Freelance capsuleers basically having a never-ending amount of ships to lose or kill, an ingrained love for warfare and a perpetual and never-ending firestorm to forge themselves further in would of course end up with the outer region capsuleers quite simply just being that much better at it than the Empires. You'll have experts with ten thousand+ hours of actual logistics and supply line experience, combat experience, fitting experience, and tactics/strategy that is constantly iterated upon and sharpened as they continuously clash with others having the exact same.

When do you think an Empire egger last saw a capital brawl? When do you think they saw a clash of hundreds of capsuleers on each side with combined arms fleets split into multiple wings of bombers, magic wands, mainline battleships and so on and so forth? When did they last have to punch way above their weightclass in a small-gang scenario? When it comes to war... well, the ones that have been at war for ages will be the ones that are best at it. So again, we end up with the situation that the freelancer capsuleers remain the pinnacle of this stuff. Especially since independent capsuleers aren't restricted by "milspec" (read: Lowest bidder that manage to scrape by the "don't explode from the stresses of undocking" standard) gear, or the military bureaucracy governing doctrines and standards.

An independent capsuleer at their peak will have one to one vastly more wealth and resources behind them than any military egger, far more combat experience and they'll be so much more adaptable than someone limited by military standards.

The only real threat there is potentially sheer numbers, or CONCORD flipping the switch, not the combat prowess of the enemy.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: MakotoPriano on 18 Jun 2018, 11:42
Silas;

There's been some ebb-and-flow on the 'strength of the empires vs. independents' thing. I think CCP realized that giving hard numbers would never work, as suddenly 'billionaire!' is a thing many capsuleers are, and a dozen titans are no longer a thing of monumental power. So, instead, it's a loose concept of 'control.' Of course, even the lore on that is a bit haphazard, but-- well, when you've got a world written over two decades by a dozen different authors, things can be uneven.

Louella; on the original topic, I think we can all agree that more empire-y lore would be awesome.

I suspect some of us will have to agree to disagree on whether non-empire lore is interesting, given that the matter is a subjective one.

I will, however, say that suspension of disbelief is necessary either way, because we're engaging with a world where action is necessarily mediated by game mechanics, and sometimes reconciling lore and the client gets a bit funky. Like-- ship rebalances and remodels? Huhwha?
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 18 Jun 2018, 12:15
To be fair, as much as I’ve used it as a weapon in RP argumentation, I’m finding it ever harder go suspend my disbelief that pirate forces would send the sheer amount of ships and personel at us as they currently do. Millions upon millions of ships destroyed in a single year by a single egger against pirates just doesn’t add up, so given that again it’s not a simple thing to impose hard numbers and stats and stuff to make the Empires seem more scawwy to us. We’ve collectively just got too good at the game for that.

That said we do need a shake up somewhere with how the Empires interact because honestly no one really takes inter factional rivalry too seriously if we’re all still maxing, relaxing all cool in the same channels discussing niceties, or drinking in the same venues. We all know each other too well, the conflicts when they do occur are too binary and there’s just not much left unexplored or expanded upon so instead it fets left to new blood (like myself some 2 odd years ago) to walk the same paths. Seriously, I’ll take even peaceful sheenanigans to keyboard warrior over to the stagnation we have.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 18 Jun 2018, 19:12
Yea this used to be a topic quite a bit 'back in the day' but as with most IP, you just can't look too closely under the hood or inspect too deeply before it all falls apart.   Game designers thought it would be more fun to blow up a bunch of different ships each mission than kill one ship, etc.

One of you nerds ;) did some of the math a few years ago and the independent capsuleer death toll upon baseliners per year wiped out the population of the cluster pretty quickly if we were actually chewing through that many thousands of ships with thousands of crews each, each and every day.  Your average level 4 mission spammer in high sec is Hitler on the daily basically if we take those numbers literally.

Part of the kung-fu of RP with all of the mostly silly eve IP was figuring out a tasteful/quasi realistic way to weave in and out of the nonsense parts of the lore and try (and often fail) to make something workable out of it.

My main 'lore' issue was never being able to quite logically get around the basics of the CONCORD/Empire/Independent capsuleer shit show of trying to make all that not sound ridiculous and implausible, especially with security status, docking, all of that stuff.

The problem with the non-rp playerbase as 'lore' is that although some of the events are interesting, the general shitposting and wanker nature of ooc eve players mean turning those things into IC lore is ice skating uphill.  It's a damned antimatter explosion whenever you have to railroad the IC empires into some null bear's new 0.0 station called 'penis mansion' or whatever.   Our RP nerds, while most of us not doing so many big 'in game' things, at least tried to work within the game world for our doings.

Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 20 Jun 2018, 09:45
Yeah I did some back-of-a-napkin calculations based on average ship crew sizes by hull and went with Havens as a general average site. Arrendis then came in with what a real full on player could achieve when not half arsing it like me.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 20 Jun 2018, 10:40
I don't think anyone's arguing that the sheer numbers of sites run by the turbobears are 'canon'. The power disparity however is pretty well set in stone as far as I'm concerned. What that turbobear can do in terms of horrible murder in a single site, and how fast and destructive it is, remains 'true'.

I don't know how we got over onto the subject of just how much a bear can grind any given day, and I don't really see the relevance either.

Outside of CONCORD's killswitches and system overrides, independent capsuleers remain the top of the foodchain in space, as far as one to one murderpower goes.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 20 Jun 2018, 19:51
Couple of points we'd need to establish to determine 'relative' strengths, but the way they are setting up the table with CONCORD rules and their wtfbbqgodpower in the lore it makes no sense for the empires to lose even a tiny grip to the playerbase (at least old lore wise): 

What % of empire capsuleer school graduates are released to 'independent' concord status (IE all eve human players)? How many of their graduating classes are they letting go and why would they let any go at all?

I'd argue there's probably some language in the Yulai accords that mandates all 4 empires send a small % of their trainees out into the cluster as independents, for uh, 'reasons' let's say.  It would have to be a low number; the empires aren't going to spend billions on training what is already a tiny % of their population that even qualifies for the training and then let them go.  They'll let concord get their token capsuleers and they will keep the lion's share, probably their best, to themselves running their navies.  The independents, the null blocs, just don't have the numbers or manpower if this is how they operate the system.   

So what would make it believable that the 'independents' are gaining the upper hand? A few simple lore tweaks could do it:

CONCORD doesn't have as tight a grip on capsuleers as we have always understood? maybe there's all sorts of capsuleers reproducing their tech and training others on their own, outside of concord watch? This would mean some retconning but it's the only way to explain the nul groups being able to start matching the empires.  It wouldn't represent any of the playerbase as currently structured or character created so it'd be 'lore only' so to speak but i could see it.

Now CCP never really fixed power creep or inflation and what were supposed to be rare and game changing ships or tech are now being printed on assembly lines and nothing means anything with the broken $$ system.  So much of the old events or plots or lore revolving around a few big ships fighting are just plain silly when any small null group can field dozens of titans without really breaking a sweat.  The whole battle for Caldari prime or even the Elder invasion look damned silly now when you look at the current hundreds of titans and supercarriers fielded on the larger null battles.

So either it's all 'true' as seen and concord and the empires allow the independent capsuleers to outpace them in every category and yet keep sending them graduates, or we need a bit of handwavium applied to the poor caldari navy and empire, etc to keep them remotely relevant.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 00:39
I don't think there's much point in trying to finagle any specifics out of it. The one thing that needs to be pretty iron-clad in Eve RP is "What you see in this moment is very much what is going on" when you're undocked. It's the only way to keep the playing field level. If we can just start making shit up as we go, it goes from that level playing field to kids going "I shot you!!"   "Nuh uh! You missed!"   "Okay fine, I shoot a nuke bazooka!"   "I dodged." levels of herpaderp. Starting to make shit up that is demonstrably not within our capabilities, or almost worse, making up limitations we demonstrably don't have will eventually make it nigh impossible to interact with each other reasonably.

If something happens in space, it happens by the mechanics and game logs, because that's the only common and equal playing field we've got when undocked. If it happens outside of the game-mechanics and rather in fiction, it can't overrule or affect the actual game-mechanics we are limited by, because that just opens up the most horrific cans of worms. "I board your station, unload a bunch of marines and they do X and Y and Z to Insert Facility Here."   "Wait, shit. That's an option? I mean if it was, I'd have been dropping countless thousands of Marines in every enemy citadel and station in New Eden a thousand times over. When did we become able to do this?" as an example. And we didn't. Actual game mechanics trumps all, because they're the only commonality between all players. The closest we can reasonably get to doing otherwise is having our characters disbelieve something. Which is a bit of a stroke of good luck Miz being too old for the NPE, because having to acknowledge that fucking retarded shit show would completely break any semblance of reason in New Eden, heh. But I digress.

So, to return to your subject, are the outer region groups mightier than the Empires? Well, in my opinion, hell no. They're not numerous enough, don't have the baseliner industry/economy required and still need to sustain themselves on Empire populations in order to feed the sheer baseliner requirements of their infrastructure as far as I'm concerned. Military wise, it'd probably take the entirety of null working together to be a match for one highsec nation. It'd be a mistake to consider the Elder Fleet as 'the bulk of Minmatar strength' and any of the other shows of force over the years as respective such. Look at the videos of Jamyls coronation as an example. Start counting Titans and capitals. For a local parade/ceremony. Think the Empire which is supposedly beset on all sides by internal and external enemies would weaken its defenses across its realm for that shit? That was their freakin' reserves/ceremonial guard. The Elder Fleet? Surgical Strike. Successful only through surprise and speed, and paying the price when that is turned on them and so on and so forth. The Empires in all likelihood have unfathomable military strength we never get to see.

However... none of this matters. It doesn't matter, at all, what we think IC or OOC about the relative strengths of Empires and Freelancers. Characters (and even players) can believe whatever the hell they wish about their relative strengths, because it's completely fucking irrelevant thanks to a few simple things: Freelancer capsuleers are neutered entirely by CONCORD and sec mechanics run by CONCORD. They can killswitch any one of us if they so choose, and even if all they could do was maintain our current status quo, that would be more than enough to keep us neutered. As long as this "lol no" forcefield of invulnerability exists, the relative strengths of outer region groups, freelancer capsuleers, Empires etc are all moot and irrelevant.

Gameplay trumps fiction and fantasy. The Empires win by walk over and default.

Anyway, I'm reasonably sure we've been talking about different things here. I have been talking about the strengths of the individual. I am saying the individual freelancer capsuleer is the strongest combat entity in New Eden, since it's both supported by the gameplay of Eve Online and because it simply makes sense. They will be the ones with the most resources behind them on an individual level, with the most combat experience on an individual level, the ones riding the bleeding edge of strategy and tactics, perpetually iterating upon what we can call the 'meta' OOC and 'doctrine/fitting theory/tactics/whatever' IC. Knowledge and capability gained with every win and every loss, multi-billionaires who can fill every hangar from here to Cobalt Edge with reships, and so on and so forth. This is supported by the gameplay, simply because CCP are absolutely never going to be able to create NPCs that can't be beaten unless using "omfg bullshit!" mechanics that are tantamount to cheating (CONCORD and their system overrides, ridiculous limitations in ship choices and so on) and it quite simply makes sense as I mentioned before.

That's why 'outsider' threats will never feel like actual relevant threats, whether you subscribe to Empires' Superiority or the hurfblurf "gewnz are the new Empire!" nonsense. Either way, weird 'aliens', trilbyhats and doriftos are never a believable threat. The Capsuleer remains the Apex Predator, and if the "enemy" isn't bolstered by other players then they will always be one-to-one weaker than you. Imagine that moment when there's an actual fucking existential threat from any of these enemies. Insert any one of them into a "Oh shit, New Eden! We're fuckered! Plz, players, halp!" from whoever is the questgiver dejour. "Yeh, cool. How many Titans you want? Actually, we'll just bring all of them. We've all got Fax alts anyway."

Now replace that with Empire nation A threatening all out war against Empire Nation C. "... well shit, this is a problem. Those guys got freelancer loyalist capsuleers too." Suddenly that is a credible threat, because you're no longer up against NancyPCs, but other players too. The only real credible threat to freelancer capsuleers. Other freelancer capsuleers.

By ignoring this facet of Eve Online, not only are CCP telling worse stories and making the universe unimmersive as fuck... they're losing focus on what made Eve such a great fucking setting in the first place. Conflict that can matter. It's not the 'epic scale' and 'omfg hueg scary enemy' that is important. It's credible threats and challenges along the entire spectrum of scale.

Right, that's... at least three different subjects rolled into one. I think I'll leave it at that for now.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: kalaratiri on 21 Jun 2018, 09:13
The one thing that needs to be pretty iron-clad in Eve RP is "What you see in this moment is very much what is going on" when you're undocked. It's the only way to keep the playing field level. If we can just start making shit up as we go, it goes from that level playing field to kids going "I shot you!!"   "Nuh uh! You missed!"   "Okay fine, I shoot a nuke bazooka!"   "I dodged." levels of herpaderp. Starting to make shit up that is demonstrably not within our capabilities, or almost worse, making up limitations we demonstrably don't have will eventually make it nigh impossible to interact with each other reasonably.

If something happens in space, it happens by the mechanics and game logs, because that's the only common and equal playing field we've got when undocked. If it happens outside of the game-mechanics and rather in fiction, it can't overrule or affect the actual game-mechanics we are limited by, because that just opens up the most horrific cans of worms. "I board your station, unload a bunch of marines and they do X and Y and Z to Insert Facility Here."   "Wait, shit. That's an option? I mean if it was, I'd have been dropping countless thousands of Marines in every enemy citadel and station in New Eden a thousand times over. When did we become able to do this?" as an example. And we didn't. Actual game mechanics trumps all, because they're the only commonality between all players. The closest we can reasonably get to doing otherwise is having our characters disbelieve something. Which is a bit of a stroke of good luck Miz being too old for the NPE, because having to acknowledge that fucking retarded shit show would completely break any semblance of reason in New Eden, heh. But I digress.

While I don't immediately disagree with this, I think it doesn't have to be quite so hardline as you make out. If agreed upon beforehand by the parties involved, there's absolutely no reason that people can't RP things like marine boarding operations (to run with your example).
The key factor is obviously that any non-in-space activities are talked about and discussed by the parties involved to stop it being a "he said, she said" of escalating ridiculousness.

An ongoing example of this would be the Mantel/Silver discussion happening on the IGS at the moment. I think your "fanfic" post is actually pushing too hard. Mantel and Silver have discussed the events, and if they want to say that it happened then it is nobody else's place to come in and stamp on their RP by saying "that can't happen so it didn't". Creating an interesting story sometimes requires a bit of suspension of disbelief either IC or OOC (or both), and personally I don't think it's fair to try and deny this for others.

If we push too much into the "only in-space events actually happen or matter" then Eve RP collapses entirely.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Lasairiona on 21 Jun 2018, 09:38
Creating an interesting story sometimes requires a bit of suspension of disbelief either IC or OOC (or both), and personally I don't think it's fair to try and deny this for others.

If we push too much into the "only in-space events actually happen or matter" then Eve RP collapses entirely.

This.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: MakotoPriano on 21 Jun 2018, 09:41
Small addition: whatever one thinks of it, the NPE is canon. Like all mission-style activity, a little bit of squinting may be needed to reconcile it with the world sensibly, but we don't get to pick and choose canon. vOv
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 09:43
The problem there then becomes "If he can, then I can, and everyone else can" and then suddenly I should theoretically be able to crash Amarr Trade Station onto the damn planet by just dumping enough Marines in there. Or take on other people's citadels in ways we really bloody can't. An even playing field is a necessity not just to maintain the immersion etc, but to avoid breaking everyone's RP. Yeah sure I can agree with Samira that we do X and Y with Citadel Z and then what happens when that goes public?

Why wouldn't PIE then be able to do that with my Citadels? Why wouldn't I be able to do it to theirs? Or SFRIMs? Or completely unrelated people having read the IGS?



The problem and blessing of Eve is that it's one shared universe. There isn't just "involved parties", it's everyone. What we do is done within the exact same setting and under the exact same ruleset, and when someone starts pretending it doesn't apply to them and their particular thing, while publicly claiming this is how the universe now works, other characters then either have that exact same capability or you start fragmenting everything into house-ruled camps.

House rules are awesome. House rules which in this kind of game then would have to propagate across every house the game comes onto the table... less awesome.

This is why I am a proponent of 'gameplay trumps all'. That still leaves immense amounts of wiggleroom to do all kinds of shit with your characters, but if it happened in space? Do it in space, under the exact same ruleset everyone else plays by, or it just makes interaction nonsensical in the end.

You can do damn near anything in Eve as it is. If you push for breaking the rules we all play under, RP collapses entirely.

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Small addition: whatever one thinks of it, the NPE is canon. Like all mission-style activity, a little bit of squinting may be needed to reconcile it with the world sensibly, but we don't get to pick and choose canon. vOv

Yup, we can all go kill faxes in shitfit frigates, and practically solo Drifter hives. This also happens regularly in every newbie system we have, with SSoE having supar secrit research stations in all of them, each 'sploding on a daily basis.

I think I'll keep having my character ignore those far-fetched stories. They may be canon OOC, but it's so unfuckingbelievably retarded that accepting it IC would be stupid beyond compare.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 21 Jun 2018, 10:33
[mod]There is no need to launch personal attacks in this discussion. Agree to disagree civilly or have your posting priviledges revoked for a week. Consider this fair warning to everyone involved there[/mod]

Carry on but keep it clean.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 10:36
This is where generally accepted standards and people not intentionally being shit to each other comes in.

"Being able to crash the Emperor Family Station into the planet" is beyond the parameters of what's reasonable or realistic to even try and claim, so nobody is going to try and declare that they've done that.

If you and Samira RP'd the capture of a citadel through marines, then when it went public I'd imagine most people would be happy to accept that as it is reasonable, pre-agreed, and doesn't break anything in the established game world.

... yeah, except that's never been true. People are not that reasonable. When people very publicly does stuff that affects everyone, i.e. demonstrate an ability to seed covert monitoring stations etc, then this is setting a precedent that this is now how the world works. If I could do that stuff, it'd have tremendous impact on Miz's ability in New Eden and damn straight I'd do this all day long if I could. I'd have those fucking everywhere there'd been enemy activity or where locator agents have indicated such. I'd be getting those set up everywhere.

Of course, I can't do that. If I am to find out what other players are up to, I have to go look. If I have to take on a Citadel, I have to get together something eminently shooty and go apply horrific violence, and hope I have enough guns to do it without getting blown out of space. Or hire someone to do it. Or you know... not be able to do it. That's okay too! Miz can't do a lot of things in New Eden and that isn't detracting from the RP. It reinforces and strengthens it. Incapability is just as important as capability in RP.

I mean, if we start setting precedents that you can, again using the marines/citadel example, do certain things my character most definitely would if she could... and then it turns out we can't... that breaks RP. "Oh we TOTALLY can raid other people's citadels with Marines."   "... yeah, I can afford a bajillion marines, but see those SFRIM citadels? Yeah, turns out, this is not a thing we can do."   "Oh but we can!"    "... nope. See? It just shoots at me."   

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Again, I don't disagree with this in essence.

The bit I have a problem with is if two (or more) people get together and agree that "x is going to happen in their arc", and it's not something that the game allows to be played through, it is not up to uninvolved people to jump in and shit on them for it.

It doesn't actually harm anyone if people decide to play something "impossible" as long as they keep the impact of said event within those involved, and the community in general recognise that what might be "allowed" for one person isn't automatically "allowed" for someone else.

A tiny bit of communication literally solves all your issues.

Yeah, the problem is that once the impact goes public, you change the rules of the game. "We can do X, as demonstrated in thread Y on the IGS."   "Awesome, I'm going to do it to Corp Z."    "You can't do that!"    "... oh."

The playing field becomes completely uneven.

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Except I can't go to any of those incredible sci-fi settings because the game won't let me out of my ship.
Sure you can. Same way you go to the Summit, same way you go to bars etc. Of course, you can't squeeze your Machariel or whatever into the bar, but that's what docking is for. I think you got it backwards here: What you can do outside of the game mechanics is damn near unlimited. My problem is that when the game mechanics are in place for something, then the game mechanics trump the fiction. Would you believe me if I said I anchored a few Keepstars solo? Of course not, it'd be ludicrous. Would you believe me if I said I boarded a Titan? Of course not, it's ludicrous. If I'm to anchor cities in space, I damn well better actually do it in space. If I'm to take on one of your ships, I don't get to just say "I launch boarders" in local and wait for you to self-destruct. I'll have to damn well shoot you.

It's really not that difficult. Where the game mechanics are in place, they should trump everything else. They're already staggeringly liberal in terms of what we can do as capsuleers, so there really is never a need to start breaking those limitations. Want to have some space installation for whatever purpose? Drop a cheap EC or Citadel. Voila, problem solved. You can do damn near everything. Add a little communication and cooperation and you can even easily add unintentional stuff like "want to loot something specific from the citadel when you attack it? Okay, asset safety says nope but hey. I can undock a transport and try to get away as you fight me! Try to catch me." etc etc.

We're pretty much the least limited players of an MMO ever, when it comes to what we can do RP wise.

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Thanks for the ad hominem at the end there, but you've missed my point.

The game, as it is, is spaceships. It is entirely spaceships. It is 100% spaceships.

Every single thing I write about Kalaratiri is "outside the game mechanics". Every bar she goes to, every planet she walks on, every cigarette she smokes, is "outside the game".

The setting is not the game. The setting allows for incredible stories.

The game does too, but in a very different way. The game lets me talk about surviving a fight in 1% structure, or that bombing run that killed 130 battleships, or killing my first titan, or mining for a supercapital.

The setting lets me talk about Kala, and it's almost all outside the game.

Now if creating backstories for our characters can be accepted, why not other things that don't directly exist within the game, but do in the setting?

See above. Basically what I'm saying here is "don't break the game." Some things would. If I could have freakin' spy installations dropped around space, it'd make me a fucking God in Eve. It really isn't difficult to have amazing RP without writing in abilities and capabilities that would fucking break the game power wise. It doesn't really matter what game you're playing in, when you start breaking the rules to the point where you're breaking gameplay, it's for all intents and purposes godmoding.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 10:37
Hrm, looks like some of what I quoted got pruned?
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: kalaratiri on 21 Jun 2018, 10:40
Hrm, looks like some of what I quoted got pruned?

Yeah, idk what in my posts counted as personal attacks. Oh well.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 10:42
He might just be snipping the entire thing for review and returning your stuff later. I saw no personal attacks there either.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 21 Jun 2018, 10:42
I felt it better to cut the thread off and move from there given some bits were attacks and some bits had bits quoted to other bits. I’m also on mobile rather the at my PC so rather than locking this thread for hours or days before I can get to pruning it better I decided we can just move on from this point. What you’ve quoted, so long as not moderatable content, is fine but I personally want everyone to take a deep breath and try again with a better frame of mind. It got too heated for a bit there.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 21 Jun 2018, 10:43
And yes, there were some ad hominen and barbs thrown in there by a few folk that didn’t need to be there.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhir on 21 Jun 2018, 10:49
I got a little story of my own: There are no drifter corpses in the game. When you kill a drifter they just leave a wreck behind. So according to the game mechanics there is no ways we can have a drifter in our hands. Yet I and 3 other still got our hands on Apollo Tyrannos and still managed to perform an autopsy and make a report about it. It may be a bold goal but we took great care in making sure that the things we wrote were resonable despite everything was made up of thin air. And in the end it became canon by CCP.

So even if it isn't specificly something that happens ingame it can still be part of a story in the EVE setting. Most of it will be part of personal storylines, some of it will be public as well, and some will become part of the EVE storyline.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 10:53
Do you think any of that would break the gameplay of the game? Lucking out and finding a Drifter corpse might be shady, but it sure as shit doesn't affect the gameplay of others. It's when starting to pretend things that would seriously affect gameplay balance are real that problems come along.

[mod]snip[/mod]
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 21 Jun 2018, 10:56
Fair warning Mizhara, you’re toeing the line again. Your point is fine to air but stop making assertions about other folk and “difficulty” or lack there of to follow your way of thinking. We can all agree to disagree.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Korsavius on 21 Jun 2018, 13:05
Here is another example (https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/2283864/#post2283864), to add on to Mizhir's, of what "generating RP out of thin air" can achieve if done properly.

Also, Mizzy, you ignore things like the Drifter invasions in newbie systems as being ridiculous and implausible but some small unmarked Sansha facility as not? I think we can all do better than that. This type of mentality is not good to have for the RP community.

So long as such RP is executed properly, and agreed upon by parties directly involved, I see no reason why anyone has any right to say otherwise. Stifling RP for limited game mechanics reasons is no bueno. And speaking as an observer of the whole Manty/Silver thread, it has proven very interesting to look at from afar.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Evi Polevhia on 21 Jun 2018, 13:07
Alright after a little bit more thinking on it I believe we agree in principle, Mizhara. There is some ludicrous RP out there that would break or otherwise mutilate gameplay. The thing is where we draw the line.

If someone says tomorrow that they are Triglavian and they wear the suit and they fly a Vedmak and all that good stuff, they are still obviously not Triglavian. I mean at the very least we could look at their employment history. But beyond that yeah it's fairly obvious that there are bounds to this game's RP that as players we are not reasonably able to step over.

But on the other side of that continuum would be RP that also breaks gameplay but I am sure both you and I would agree is perfectly fine. For example in game play, especially after the removal of Captain's Quarters, we are locked in to our pod forever. There is no leaving it. You can put the pod in a ship, but there is absolutely zero way to move the person out of a capsule. Additionally, IC Location channels can't possibly exist. I mean in gameplay those are simply chat channels. That's not a physical beach you're going to. L'Amore in Ballo can't possibly exist because it's just chat channels. But that's fine because we can't leave our capsules anyways. Stuff like that I think you're with me and the overwhelming majority of players in suspending because otherwise RP would be quite different than to how it is today.

So. Where do we draw the line? Where do we draw the line between 'I'm half wolf, half Drifter and my other ship is an Iapetan' and someone emoting sitting at their desk? Before you laugh, know that I'm dead serious here. There has to be some point between those two extremes where we say we're not comfortable with stretching the RP/Gameplay boundary.

Yeah. The stuff with Mantel/Silver/Tress does involve stuff that breaks gameplay. But so does L'Amore. And so as long as, at least I think, the majority of people seem to be ok with it why do you have to attack it as delusion? Just leave them be.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 13:38
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Kor's stuff

Mmmh, and them dictating to the entire game world that this is something we can do is something that we have the right to do? So if I proclaim we can do Ridiculous Thing #451: Blatantly Not In Our Power, this is something other characters don't have the right to scoff at? I can do this entirely without criticism? Come the fuck on.

Stifling RP my entire arse, as if there's ever been any kind of rule anywhere that says our characters have to go along with pure fantasy that would quite literally be gamebreaking in terms of player ability. It's far worse for an "RP Community" to just start throwing common even ground out the window. It's a very short distance between this and 'vampire biting' people in Goldshire.

Characters can publicly and loudly disbelieve exactly whatever the hell they want, especially if it goes blatantly against what is demonstrably possible. Especially when they are directly involved by being part of the ruleset that's being thrown out the window. I wholly and entirely expect huge swathes of the characters of New Eden to completely disbelieve Miz's involvement in the Network and even claim Sarz'namarr isn't real or it's somehow propaganda'd into existence or whatever. This is perfectly fine. Miz could have made all that stuff up for all anyone who isn't very close to her would know. It does no harm disbelieving it, and more importantly: The existence of these things does nothing to negate or direct other people's RP. They're solely fluff completely and utterly disconnected from gameplay. (Except that I've actually set up Citadels to be part of the Network, but no one seems to bother with them, heh.)

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There has to be some point between those two extremes where we say we're not comfortable with stretching the RP/Gameplay boundary.

Of course, we do venture far outside of gameplay in RP. This isn't something I've ever denied. Where I draw the line though, is where we're rewriting the common rules everyone labor under, within the actual gameplay of Eve Online. I've given examples already, but the short version is that whenever it's something any other capsuleer would be able to interact with or do (set up infrastructure, shoot other people, haul around, whatever) it needs to remain under the same gameplay rules as for everyone else. In this case, I most certainly can't set up listening posts and so on, short of dropping citadels and parking alts in them permanently. If I could, holy fucking shit I so would. Everywhere.

And from there it snowballs. If it's there, can I go shoot it and get me a killmail? No? Oh, it doesn't actually exist. I am thus not only unable to do this thing that is being done, I can't negate it or counteract it. I am in fact utterly incapable of interacting with it, outside of being told in no uncertain terms that yes it's there and it can shoot things and this is a thing we can do.

The solution to this problem is very simple: Set up actual listening posts. Arsehouses and whatever the weenie EC is are cheap as hell and better yet: They are content generators. You can actually do shit in space with these things, as friendlies and enemies both. Silver sure as shit isn't too poor to drop a few for a story's sake.

It's very easy to maintain gameplay integrity, while weaving any story you'd like. There are some limitations that can pop up like Asset Safety ensuring you can't get a single slave out of Napkins' citadels without his say so, but there are workarounds to all those things. Camp the entry gate and blow up his haulers. If necessary, work with him to set up other scenarios where you can do stuff in space.

I guess I'm rambling at this point, but the tl;dr to your question is: When there's established gameplay, it trumps the fiction. This not only avoids the problem of rewriting the rules of New Eden and the game we play, it if anything strengthens roleplay by forcing actual actions to be undertaken and actual interaction can take place. On an even playing field. Where there isn't gameplay relevant to what's being done (self-propelled flight in a low-grav 'roid's shower of purple crystal slivers, cave-diving into the Spirit Caves that have inlaid ores that for all intents and purposes mimic a basic nervous system (some kind of ancient art?), hell do a freakin' Shadowrun with some friends as an old baseliner lover desperately needs your help after getting a subsidiary of KK after them), fuckin' go nuts. Go for it all. It has no impact on anyone else, what they could possibly do and so on.

Both in terms of gameplay and RP, no game comes anywhere close to the levels of freedom we have to create the most amazing interactive stories and arcs. That's why I feel it's so very important to maintain the limitations we do have, because they ensure that there's a structure and ruleset common to us all, protecting each other from wrecking the very world we do our stuff in. When we do, there's jagged edges and cracks in the veneer all over the place, and it lessens the RP tremendously.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Evi Polevhia on 21 Jun 2018, 13:49
Nevermind I suppose. Good luck.
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2018, 13:51
Was your question not answered enough? Did I miss something?
Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 21 Jun 2018, 14:09
Good stuff, all.

I think for minor consentual RP there's a whole world of 'that sound fine' worldbuilding outside of game mechanics no one bats an eye at.

Where RPers tend to always butt heads is how out of the average some people tend to go with their own things. 


We are often left with the crude metrics of group consent and gameplay metrics to guide us.

One thing I've found that helps a bit with this sort of thing is to in general try to use the in game assets and 'street cred' and other metrics to guide me.  This only applies of course to RP that can be game related. If you want to be a barkeep in a merc bar on some backwater planet, you don't need in-game anything to support this.

If you claim to be an ace solo pilot better than god and have 5% effectiveness on your actual killboard, nope and nope. That sort of thing needs to be supported.

If you claim to be an industrial mover and shaker and you show us your manufacturing que and some of your bank account readouts, we can all get behind that and your gameplay supports your RP.

This goes the same for some folks I've seen over the years trying to be grand space tyrants or heroes mostly forum/chat warring.  You can I guess RP that you abuse your baseliner crew or have tons of worshipfull followers around the cluster but it's always harder to believe that stuff if you come across as none of those things in-game. 

This was my attempted rule 100% for all my time here; my in game fortunes rose and fell with in-game performance.  When I was running some orgs and owning some small corners of null or low space and our own player stations my RP and non-gameplay RP reflected those good fortunes. When it crashes and burns and you get your ass kicked and lose it all, the same rules apply.  I certainly couldn't -prove- some of the things that were claimed for Silas during the "good" or "bad" times but it seemed a reasonable extrapolation for things that were currently reflected -in game-. 

I guess my only advice would be to yea, temper some of your out of gameplay content towards how well you are doing in-game perhaps.   

If you are a carebear running missions in high sec I don't want to hear about your vast network of null sec planetside assets, for example, it doesn't fit.

Title: Re: direction of eve storyline ?
Post by: Silver Night on 21 Jun 2018, 23:15
Locking this, particularly as there seem to be snipped parts that didn't make it anywhere, so I don't really have the full context for the thread to take any other mod action, but there's also discussion of moderation etc, and it seems like people have been pushing over the 'you're doing it wrong' line as well. I know we haven't had a ton of activity lately, but pleased as I am that people still log in here occasionally the rules and FAQ continue to apply.