Backstage - OOC Forums
Archives => Katacombs => Topic started by: Julianni Avala on 05 May 2017, 23:44
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I had a question for those of you that have been here for a while.
This has been a topic in the Kickstarting Caldari Rp thread, so I figured I'd bring it over here to see what you all feel about it.
I've noticed as of late that there is quite the divide between people who pvp and roleplay, and people who roleplay and do other things (or don't, for that matter).
My question is this: why is it such an issue for either side? EVE has so many ways of playing it. Why should someone who roleplays exclusively look down on someone who goes out and pvps? And vice versa, why do people who pvp look down on those who do not?
I sincerely do not understand what the problem is.
As personal experience, in my time joining the roleplay scene, I am exclusively a role player. I do a bit of exploration here and there, and maybe a bit of FW or pirating on alts. But otherwise, I prefer to engage in the roleplay aspect of this game. I constantly get the feeling that, because of this preference of playing, there are some who disregard my characters simply because they do not have a nice and shiny killboard.
Granted, it doesn't and shouldn't matter what other people think oocly, as the idea is to stay ic and if your character doesn't go out and do these things for X reason, then that's just the way it is. But I have to admit that the ooc discomfort due to this is hard to ignore.
The way I view any roleplay community is that it is a precious thing. That people should try to respect one another and their differences, as we're all different people, of course. We all enjoy different characters, themes, etc. Disagreements are going to happen. Arguments will take place, and there will be some who are just difficult. But really, aren't we all here for the same thing? To have fun and/or get away from the stresses of real life? Have fun with collaborative stories? I get that this is a very naive view, and I'm aware that there will be no 100% happy little family. I know that a perfect place isn't possible.
But speaking as someone new to this community? It feels very divided and uncomfortable.
What can someone who is relatively new do to avoid getting burnt out and discouraged from this? And when it comes to someone who doesn't necessarily pvp all the time, what can be done to get rid of the discomfort I mentioned earlier?
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There are various issues around people claiming to be undefeatable warriors, but then literally never undock.
Eve is a very special game in that anything you chose to build or fly is placed in an environment where other players can interact with it whether you'd like them too or not. Some players avoid this by simply saying what they are doing without ever actually committing to it. Whether this is due to fear of material loss or "interruption" of their RP, the fact is it isolates anyone who might want to get involved in a more practical fashion.
Nobody says "if you don't have a good killboard you can't be a good roleplayer", but if people wish to claim to be good at combat it becomes a lot more believable if they can back it up.
There is another side to this as well. MITG's war against Sanxing and the destruction of the Sanxing astrahus was widely and heavily criticised in the RP community as "Out of Character action", seemingly for no other reason than because it was a PVP act and didn't include page after page of talking.
As someone who was present for both the planning and execution of that war, there most certainly was an IC reason, and also absolutely no reason to go shouting it from the rooftops. If people wanted to know why we were doing it, they could have approached us IC and asked. Instead, many of us received blanket bans from channels because of our "OOC actions" (this has since been dealt with), without even an attempt to find out our reasons.
My personal feeling on the matter are that people who don't pvp should not feel that they must simply relocate their entire RP to inside a station! Space is big, there are lots of amazing places for a great story to be told. It's not nearly as dangerous as you might think either.
At the same time, RP'ers who do engage in pvp should not see themselves somehow as "above" those who do not. Pvp is an incredibly useful tool in RP, and it comes in far more forms than "honourable 1v1 duelling combat". Nauplius' structures are a wonderful example of this. Your killboard does not actually make you a better roleplayer, it just helps back you up if you claim to be a badass pilot. (Due to the way killboards work, it does not actually make you a baddass pilot either).
Be nice to each other and make some stories!
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Since you brought it up...
I don't think you're accurately representing the criticism about Sanxing. I wasn't around, but that drama was one of the first things I heard about when I started reconnecting with my EVE friends.
MITG's stated IC rationale of "defending our buddy's honor" is pretty weak tea compared to the OOC "easy Citadel kill / trolling" narrative from critics. Add to that the fact that Sanxing hardly claimed to be "undefeatable warriors" IC, they were a corp of new players with a non-PVP humanitarian / political RP playstyle. You basically wardecced the Disciples of Ston, and then bragged about winning.
If anything, MITG seems to be the risk averse party, as your organization didn't / doesn't have assets in space subject to retaliation.
So ya, your unasked for and disproportionate PVP response killed what had been interesting RP for both I-RED and Sanxing and drove an active RP participant from the game in disgust. GG.
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That bit said, I do agree in general that in a game like EVE it's not good RP practice to claim an impressive combat background for your character without doing some PVP.
That ought to be fine, because there's plenty of stuff to do in space that isn't PVP combat, and plenty of other stuff for an RP character to be good at. You can be a scientist, and explorer, and industrialist... whatever. I'm of the opinion that the RP community as a whole is benefitted by having a variety of different playstyles / philosophies represented. Nobody wants the EVE RP scene to be nothing but kbstats and epeen measurement contests.
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Since you brought it up...
I don't think you're accurately representing the criticism about Sanxing. I wasn't around, but that drama was one of the first things I heard about when I started reconnecting with my EVE friends.
MITG's stated IC rationale of "defending our buddy's honor" is pretty weak tea compared to the OOC "easy Citadel kill / trolling" narrative from critics.
Why is it any less valid?
Add to that the fact that Sanxing hardly claimed to be "undefeatable warriors" IC, they were a corp of new players with a non-PVP humanitarian / political RP playstyle. You basically wardecced the Disciples of Ston, and then bragged about winning.
I have never once claimed that they pretended to be "undefeatable warriors". Totally different point from a different part of my post.
We actually took great care not to brag. We had a strict rule of "complete local silence" during the war, and made a single post/thread afterwards detailing what had happened. We had and still have a great deal of respect for Electus Matari's efforts to provide military aid to Sanxing. The destruction of the Citadel was not an inevitability either.
If anything, MITG seems to be the risk averse party, as your organization didn't / doesn't have assets in space subject to retaliation.
Yes we do. Quite a few of them, if people bothered to look.
So ya, your unasked for and disproportionate PVP response killed what had been interesting RP for both I-RED and Sanxing and drove an active RP participant from the game in disgust. GG.
It was not wholly unasked for, although perhaps not from any party you have mentioned.
Why should we use anything other than our full capabilities to complete an objective?
If Xun had got in contact with any of us even once, he would have discovered that we were perfectly open to negotiation, and quitting the game was an unnecessary overreaction.
Obviously, as a group that uses pvp as a means of RP, we're actually just monsters :roll:
I wasn't around
You could have stopped here.
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I don't think you're accurately representing the criticism about Sanxing. I wasn't around, but that drama was one of the first things I heard about when I started reconnecting with my EVE friends.
Get better friends, or at least not ones who fill your ears with a bullshit victim narrative the second you get back.
So ya, your unasked for and disproportionate PVP response killed what had been interesting RP for both I-RED and Sanxing and drove an active RP participant from the game in disgust. GG.
And maybe don't quit the game if you lose a fucking Astrahus.
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The IC reason for the MITG war in a nutshell:
(http://i.imgur.com/TqIEnYB.gif)
If you quit the game over an Astrahus that was a donation then you shouldn't have put it online in the first place. There could've been months of good RP coming out of that, internally and externally, if the OOC blame game wasn't started.
So, back to topic.
Some people write strongly worded letters, other prefer to deal with issues frontier justice style. Both are legitimate ways to interact with other players in an IC context.
Folks have a very strong desire to win. I've met few people who can take a loss and shrug it off in good spirits all the time and I've met fewer people who roleplay their characters to lose. In EVE, Nauplius stands out quite solidly there. The issues happen when this gets tactically discarded to still win. 'Didn't want that System/Ship/Station anyways' is often heard. I'm pretty sure you can think of IC lines that are commonly used to legitimate a fuck up/set back into a win or at least not a disaster. Just think of the childrencrews.
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Skip to the end for the relevant stuff. Turns out I actually have a lot to say about the other thing despite my lack of involvement. This forum still has "smileys" and that's adorable. Not emojis, not even emoticons. Smileys. :cube: this is a companion cube. it's like seeing into the past.
Since you brought it up...
I don't think you're accurately representing the criticism about Sanxing. I wasn't around, but that drama was one of the first things I heard about when I started reconnecting with my EVE friends.
My outside perspective as someone who watched the trainwreck with vague unease, your friends didn't provide the full story.
MITG's stated IC rationale of "defending our buddy's honor" is pretty weak tea compared to the OOC "easy Citadel kill / trolling" narrative from critics. Add to that the fact that Sanxing hardly claimed to be "undefeatable warriors" IC, they were a corp of new players with a non-PVP humanitarian / political RP playstyle. You basically wardecced the Disciples of Ston, and then bragged about winning.
Again, your friends clearly didn't give the full story.
It wasn't an easy citadel kill either, in terms of raw numbers, they were outnumbered by the defenders allies. They could get far easier citadel kills with far less effort(and backlash) from other sources if that's what they wanted.
An Astrahus killmail isn't worth that much effort.
If anything, MITG seems to be the risk averse party, as your organization didn't / doesn't have assets in space subject to retaliation.
Uuh? What?
I did some quick research, forgive me if I'm wrong, MITG live in J172840, a C5 wormhole. They're certainly pretty active in there anyway. Living in a wormhole without any in space assets(POS, Citadel, etc) would be pretty hard. Literally all of their commonly used assets are likely sitting in a citadel without asset safety to protect it. If you blow up their citadel(assuming they don't live in a POS, which is possible but highly unlikely), all of those assets get thrown into space in cans that anyone can loot.
Everything they own is subject to retaliation. And with wormhole citadel mechanics, they could lose all of this in a weekend.
So ya, your unasked for and disproportionate PVP response killed what had been interesting RP for both I-RED and Sanxing and drove an active RP participant from the game in disgust. GG.
If losing an Astrahus made someone quit "in disgust", they wouldn't have lasted anyway. Those are the people that pack everything they own into a T1 hauler fit with nothing but cargo expanders and lose it all to a ganker on the Jita undock, go rant on the forums about how unfair eve is and how horrible the community is and then quit, leaving no impact other than a good return on investment for a catalyst.
The person in question made no attempt to even contact them. He just threw his hands up and left. Leaving behind a shitstorm of victim narratives and drama bullshit that's going to last ages and make the community even more hostile for newcomers.
As for unasked for, you should really ask your friends for the full story.
The original topic:
People like to form groups. People who pvp and people who don't, in this case. It's not just RP, mission runners, ratters, industrialists, traders. Everyone tends toward a group identity based on what gameplay interests them and well-- anyone that doesn't share that is just misguided.
"How can I rat with these pvpers moving around? It's just griefing and shouldn't be allowed!".
"Market trading is just full of botters who 0.01 isk every 5 minutes. No one can actually do that.".
"Mining is for noobs. You'll either quit in a week or grow up and join a null alliance and start pvping.".
I'm fairly new to Eve as well. I only started playing(for realsies anyway, I've tried to play before but didn't get into it) about a year ago. That sounds longer now that I say it but it hasn't really felt that long. There's lots of old and very silly drama that I at one point tried to understand but rapidly gave up on and really can't bring myself to care about anymore. X person(or group) doesn't like Y person(or autonomous collective) because of Z. Or E. Or R. Or maybe even P, who can say for sure.
I want to add more to this because I want the actual relevant discussion stuff to feel more meaningful than the before explained and surprisingly long opinion on the earlier drama, but really that's all I have. People tend toward groups. This causes issues with smaller groups, and the eve rp community is small.
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I had a question for those of you that have been here for a while.
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I constantly get the feeling that, because of this preference of playing, there are some who disregard my characters simply because they do not have a nice and shiny killboard.
[...]
To answer this question: I only judge people by their KB if they claim to be the hottest space warrior - regardless if they're RPers or not.
Having said that, amidst a lot of PvP players casually checking someone's kill records is pretty standard to see when, where and how people leave marks in the game. This may explain why this comes up more often than it should.
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My question is this: why is it such an issue for either side?
[..]
But I have to admit that the ooc discomfort due to this is hard to ignore.
[..]
What can someone who is relatively new do to avoid getting burnt out and discouraged from this? And when it comes to someone who doesn't necessarily pvp all the time, what can be done to get rid of the discomfort I mentioned earlier?
I was not aware it's such an issue. I'm not sure what channels you frequent where this...discomfort arises, but it seems that I avoid getting discouraged by most OOC Drama by being blissfully unaware of it all.
:cowbell:
:cube:
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I had been thinking about this as well. Thanks for bringing the topic up becaues it is super important. It really saddens me to see that it feels very divided and uncomfortable for you. If we want the RP community to thrive we really need all the people we can get whether they pvp or not. Everyone should be welcome and everyone can contribute with each of their own things. One of my favourite RP people is Lasairiona Raske. I don't think she does much OOC stuff or undocks much but the effort she puts into arranging stuff and connecting people is vital. I have been enjoying her events so much. Please don't let a few elitists get you down.
I am a pvper myself and it is my main thing in the game (although I am doing more and more RP). I prefer to keep the two things seperated. When pvping I pretty much engage anything that isn't my fleetmates. But IC Miz is a much more peaceful person. It would really suck for me if I had to hold back on OOC pvp because some people got upset IC so I very much prefer keeping a line between the two things. Likewise it would be wrong to judge you for not being a pvper.
The only reason I can see where KB stats and stuff matters is if people claim they are the best. This could also apply to other activities like Market stuff or Industry. So unless people make some really bold claims or do pvp actions in the name of RP I don't see why the ways you enjoy the game should influence what you do IC. I don't know much about your character or how she is IC, but Mizhir would see her as equal (unless you give IC reasons for her to not to) and she will respect her and her choices.
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To answer this question: I only judge people by their KB if they claim to be the hottest space warrior - regardless if they're RPers or not.
Having said that, amidst a lot of PvP players casually checking someone's kill records is pretty standard to see when, where and how people leave marks in the game. This may explain why this comes up more often than it should.
This, pretty much. I have never felt there is a divide between the PvP'ers and none PvP'ers in this game. Only between people can back up any claims they make and those who can't. This is just more apparent when they say they are an A-grade Pilot and have an empty or negative kb.
I don't think you're accurately representing the criticism about Sanxing. I wasn't around, but that drama was one of the first things I heard about when I started reconnecting with my EVE friends.
MITG's stated IC rationale of "defending our buddy's honor" is pretty weak tea compared to the OOC "easy Citadel kill / trolling" narrative from critics. Add to that the fact that Sanxing hardly claimed to be "undefeatable warriors" IC, they were a corp of new players with a non-PVP humanitarian / political RP playstyle. You basically wardecced the Disciples of Ston, and then bragged about winning.
Misinformed hate. I love it. Your whole assumption that us trolling is more believable than any IC reason that we had is laughable. I would have been more than happier to sit in our hole and make my dank iskies than farting around in some dead-end system bashing a structure on timers. This easy Citadel kill still required logistics and organisation that we could have used make ourselves richer or gudfites elsewhere. But then if we just went 'wordswordsword, grrr'. We would be those people who would not back up any of our grumbly words with actions.
The largest laugh I got out of this was all these 'MITG are the bad guys' and yet not a single IC (and only one attempt OOC by someone not really involved) contact attempt was made.
If anything, MITG seems to be the risk averse party, as your organization didn't / doesn't have assets in space subject to retaliation.
:roll: As Aradina has shown, even a glimpse of intel into our corp would tell you this isn't the case. But if it helps keeping your hate boner throbbing, keep thinking that.
So ya, your unasked for and disproportionate PVP response killed what had been interesting RP for both I-RED and Sanxing and drove an active RP participant from the game in disgust. GG.
Xun leaving of Eve was a hilarious overreaction. I have literally no sympathy for someone who throws their toys out of the pram when something sets them back. I have seen logs that show both sides of the story and neither player involved in the start of our war come out smelling as roses, so any suggestion that any party was innocent is laughable.
-DR
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I think, to put my previous reply more succinctly, what I'm trying to get across is that people should not see pvp as "ruining their carefully planned rp", or something evil to avoid.
Pvp does not ruin roleplay.
If you want a roleplaying environment where every actor perfectly follows their carefully set out parts, Eve is not it.
Eve rp is free flowing, it is wild, characters interact in unexpected ways and new events create opportunities for variation and change.
Freightering food to a crippled mining colony? Get blown up? Roll with it.
Anchor a citadel and lose it in the first timer? Roll with it.
Challenged to a dual by an enraged Caldari? Roll with it!
This is Eve! Dying is not failure. It is an opportunity for learning and growth. Any pvp pilot can respect that.
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For me. I don't really seeing dying as the issue. It's killing stuff.
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I'll post a more lengthy reply once I get to a computer and can, but I'd like to say one thing.
Please don't call people out and turn this into a shit talk back and forth. Not cool. That's not why I made this topic. If you want to do that, please do it in another thread.
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Please don't call people out and turn this into a shit talk back and forth. Not cool. That's not why I made this topic. If you want to do that, please do it in another thread.
Agreed
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I think this "haha we made someone quit the game lol"
attitude response is one big divider of people. I find that pretty distasteful.
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Beware the ego.
Killboards shouldn't matter when dealing with another player, but they do to a select few. It shouldn't matter that someone had gained thousands of kills from F1 monkeying. It is better to simply ignore arguments on the IGS that try to gain relevancy by stating "Your threat is irrelevant because I have a 97% efficiency in killing people."
RP with people who are more concerned about the story then a narrative. So find those people, and have fun with them.
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I think this "haha we made someone quit the game lol" attitude response is one big divider of people. I find that pretty distasteful.
Would you mind providing an example of this?
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I think this "haha we made someone quit the game lol" attitude response is one big divider of people. I find that pretty distasteful.
Would you mind providing an example of this?
Jev, Aradina and DeadRow on previous page? That's what it looked like to me. And yeah like OP asked I really rather this didn't devolve in to shittalking back and forth, I don't particularly want to start shit, just made me furrow my eyebrows each one of those posts.
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I think this "haha we made someone quit the game lol" attitude response is one big divider of people. I find that pretty distasteful.
Would you mind providing an example of this?
Jev, Aradina and DeadRow on previous page?
I know you're just a garbage posting alt, but did you actually read the posts you're citing here?
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I think this "haha we made someone quit the game lol" attitude response is one big divider of people. I find that pretty distasteful.
Would you mind providing an example of this?
Jev, Aradina and DeadRow on previous page?
I know you're just a garbage posting alt, but did you actually read the posts you're citing here?
And here we have a 2nd example of a response that can be quite a divider.
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Screw it, I accept full responsibility for poor wording and I'll piss off from the thread. Not worth it. Someone wants to continue, start another thread.
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Jev, Aradina and DeadRow on previous page? That's what it looked like to me. And yeah like OP asked I really rather this didn't devolve in to shittalking back and forth, I don't particularly want to start shit, just made me furrow my eyebrows each one of those posts.
I think this "haha we made someone quit the game lol" attitude response is one big divider of people. I find that pretty distasteful.
I have never done anything in this game with the intention for someone to leave the game. But if someone does end up leaving over a such a small loss. I'm not losing sleep over it.
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Some people get really annoyed at being logic'd or rhetoric'd into a corner by someone, so they lash out by accusing the other of "being irrelevant in space", if they don't have as lengthy a killboard.
evidence for this abounds: see the numerous complaints by people about various blood raider themed roleplayers not being "real" sani sabik, on account of not having a lengthy killboard record.
it's a bit of goalposts with microwarpdrives, i guess :ugh:
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I regret opening this thread and will be asking for it to be locked, considering the remarks that have been made. They have opened my eyes more to the problems this community faces. And not in a good way.
Thank you to those providing responses that are relevant to the thread. It helps to get a perspective from long time players.
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I regret opening this thread and will be asking for it to be locked, considering the remarks that have been made. They have opened my eyes more to the problems this community faces. And not in a good way.
Thank you to those providing responses that are relevant to the thread. It helps to get a perspective from long time players.
I really am sorry this thread has been derailed much like the other. Players have a lot of unnecessary bad blood and or misconceptions about our group and we tend to close ranks pretty quickly when that surfaces.
For my last comments before this gets locked. A lot of people say they see this 'Killboards much be green to be relevant in rp' line, I honestly don't see it. One or two characters might state it on the IGS, but that I would take that as IC Points of View. Not really seen it in OOC channels or forum discussions about things pilots do.
I, personally, feel that if someone does something space to back up their RP then it adds a lot more depth to their RP. But they must realise that things you put in space can be shot at and they must be willing to change their RP story if something happens. Having scripted RP has never really held too much hold over me, dynamic changes make for a lot more engaging roleplay.
-DR
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[mod]A few people need to cool off. Backstage isn't the place to come be passive aggressive. You got a problem with each other sort it in your own time, not mine. This thread is locked.[/mod]
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[admin]First, I want to make clear that the original post itself was fine. Unfortunately the discussion was then derailed into back and forth about a specific in-game conflict. This is against the rules. I would like to link the Rules (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=14.0) and the FAQ (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=16.0) here. We have had a fairly tame year or so in moderation on Backstage, so I know for a lot of people a refresher might be welcome as we (and the moderation team is very happy about this) haven't had the frequent examples we used to have. If you haven't read them before, I strongly urge you to do so now. I will quote some of the relevant bits below, though.[/admin]
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