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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: LifeNTimes on 22 Aug 2016, 22:36

Title: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: LifeNTimes on 22 Aug 2016, 22:36
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone knew of resources, or had any thoughts about some of the day to day routine for slaves in a mid-level Holder household, say something like a continental or planetary Holder?  I'm trying to understand my character's Clan background and I'm thinking that her first free ancestor came from one of these type of holdings.

I've read up on the HEP and Kameiras and have found numerous posts detailing the most harsh and sadistic treatment of Matari slaves by arrogant, bored, and imperious masters.  But given a stable slavery society over several millennia, it seems that those type of blatant abuses would be more the exception than the rule throughout the Empire.  I'm interested in what life would be like on a fairly mundane and stable holding where slave families might have been owned for generations and trusted slaves would fill a wider variety of occupations.

I've heard stories where Matari slaves were entrusted with administration and management responsibilities, even piloting ships for their masters at times and it put min in the mind of established slave/master relationships that I've heard of in history and thought about going that way with it.  Am I off track with that?
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Elmund Egivand on 23 Aug 2016, 01:49
The Chronicle Chained to the Sky (https://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/chained-to-the-sky/ (https://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/chained-to-the-sky/)) describes a slave who is also a University professor. Have a look-see.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: LifeNTimes on 24 Aug 2016, 13:22
Thanks!

Man, I've really got to sit down over a long weekend with those chronicles.  I've only been able to skim them, but I keep missing the ones that I really want to see :)

That's pretty much along the line that I was thinking about.  I get the idea that Felise's ancestors were definitely the 'houseborn' type of slave (if I have the distinction right). In fact, given the bureaucratic nature of Vherokiors in general, it seems like many would fill that caste of slave. 

With her family's backstory, I'm interested in exploring the facet of slavery that exist when visible threats of rebellion are gone and you have this level of trust and personal relationship between slave/master.  I think it definitely makes slavery more complicated and in many ways, much more insidious and dehumanizing than the gross physical torture.  Yet for any stable, long-term slave society, it's an absolute cultural and social must.

Then there's the question of transitioning to that 'gilded cage' to true freedom...
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Elmund Egivand on 24 Aug 2016, 22:13
Slavery in the Amarr is a little more similar to slavery in the Ottoman Empire than slavery in pre-Civil War America or Athens. Not to mention all the religious undertones as well. The official stance on slavery in the Amarr Empire is less 'labour exploitation' and more 'educate the wayward children'. Unofficially, however, it varies between Holders. Actual sugar plantation-type slavery is not unheard of.

Just remember that the idea of slavery is less about physical torture and more along the idea of treating a human being as property. That's what's insidious about slavery. It promotes the idea that some people are less human and need not be treated as such (no human rights or etc).
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 25 Aug 2016, 02:30
Well, slaves in the Empire do have some rights.

Just fewer/less than other people, and not so much in the way of exercising free will.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Elmund Egivand on 25 Aug 2016, 04:26
Well, slaves in the Empire do have some rights.

Just fewer/less than other people, and not so much in the way of exercising free will.

One example of such a thing happening would be in the Ottoman Empire, hence my recommendation of using that as a topic of study.

Still the idea remains. You are a lesser being. Ergo, it's okay to treat you as property/housepet/lifestock. 
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Lunarisse Aspenstar on 25 Aug 2016, 10:34
Agreed on Egimund's view. This is also one reason I've essentially viewed Kameiras as akin to the old ottomon jannisaries.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Syagrius on 25 Aug 2016, 20:28
Perhaps Byzantine more than Ottoman, same geography similar structure, significantly different’ perspective?
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: LifeNTimes on 25 Aug 2016, 21:53
I think they're both really good comparison in terms of reliance on a bureaucratic slave class to manage a sprawling empire.  The 'improving the wayward' also smacks of British India in some respect and the experiences of slaves that were artisans and officials Rome in spots as well.

I think it definitely makes for some interesting interactions between citizens and slaves when the status is reversed, say a bureaucratic slave representing a large holder and a non-holding or lower holding Ammarian, especially given what I've read about Amarrian ideas of racial superiority.  Definitely seems to be a stage for negotiation various sources of political and social power.

Thanks for the insights  :)
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Elmund Egivand on 26 Aug 2016, 02:00
I think they're both really good comparison in terms of reliance on a bureaucratic slave class to manage a sprawling empire.  The 'improving the wayward' also smacks of British India in some respect and the experiences of slaves that were artisans and officials Rome in spots as well.

I think it definitely makes for some interesting interactions between citizens and slaves when the status is reversed, say a bureaucratic slave representing a large holder and a non-holding or lower holding Ammarian, especially given what I've read about Amarrian ideas of racial superiority.  Definitely seems to be a stage for negotiation various sources of political and social power.

Thanks for the insights  :)

Haha, yeah. Imagine that. A higher ranking bureaucratic slave who answers to a Royal Heir directly vs a low ranked Amarr Holder on issues of red tape.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 26 Aug 2016, 13:57
I guess the Roman style has some similarities in that you have trusted, skilled slaves and people that are worked to death on farms/in mines.

Arnulf's dad is a liberated mine slave which is why he was happy to sign up for the military.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: LifeNTimes on 26 Aug 2016, 21:36
Haha, yeah. Imagine that. A higher ranking bureaucratic slave who answers to a Royal Heir directly vs a low ranked Amarr Holder on issues of red tape.

That's what makes it interesting to me.  It seems that any caste-type society like that has these weird spots where the very rules that are meant to keep order create confusion.  It's also a situation where it is difficult to deny the humanity and intrinsic value of slaves independent of their usefulness.  It seems like the kind of situation that Felise's ancestors would exploit.

Going on to Arnulf's point,  I think trust--either of the slave by the master or of system by the slave would definitely play a big part in the autonomy of the slave, how well they were able to be 'brought in line' so to speak.  But so would skill set and job.  Given the Empire's penchant for selective breeding through programs such as HEP, I'm sure they could ensure a certain level of compliance among most slaves...of course until they couldn't.

I see Felise's ancestors as hyper-component civil service slaves for a fairly powerful lord who might have aided the Rebellion during its build up secretly before escaping to Gallente before the hammer dropped as I can't imagine they would have believed in a free Minmatar society surviving for more than a couple of years, at least at first.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 27 Aug 2016, 05:29
There used to be an Amarr player, I think the character was called Veron Daerth, who presented as one of the "good" holders. Supposedly benevolent enough that his slaves had defended him from Matari raiders looking to free them. Don't know if he's still active through. Might be worth a trawl through the IGS for old posts by him.

I do recall the character had a major grudge against the Blooders for killing some of his family & kidnapping others.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 27 Aug 2016, 18:09
The Amarr Epire is vast and there's space for all kind of forms of slavery there. The PF isn't consistent in how it treats the issue of slavery and those inconsistencies can in part be resolved by this. Some inconsistencies might be something that is a real inconsistency in the Amarr cultural sphere.

And example there might be the view of slaves as subhuman (which isn't by the way not something held by all Amarr. In fact, it was first brough up by players and CCP latched onto that and now with Source has been made into the majority view) and the justification for slavery which is education and spiritual enlightenment. The idea of subhumans, if taken literally of course, is quite directly opposed to the idea that people can be educated and through education (and penal labour) be raised up to a higher status of full citizenship becoming pretty much 'Amarr'.

A lot of the fiction on slavery seems to me - from my European perspective - to be drawing on the idea of slavery in the US, plantations and the like. Even in the case of bureaucratic slaves and such it always does stress that the slaves do in some way suffer from that state consciously. There are societies where certainslaves - like in the bureaucracy - had openly a higher status than some freeman and whose positions were seen as desirable, who were also better off then most commoners, at least materially, and arguably even had more freedom, depending on the definition one gives for that.

I think the valuable thing about Amarr slavery is as something by which we can look critically at our own societys, where they grant freedom and what kind of freedom (formal versus actual comes to mind there, primarily) rather than using it as something that we can 'enjoy' from a perspective of feeling like it's something we've risen above and being in the past.

But that's just how I prefer to treat it, so whatever floats the boat, I guess.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: LifeNTimes on 28 Aug 2016, 21:21
The Amarr Epire is vast and there's space for all kind of forms of slavery there. The PF isn't consistent in how it treats the issue of slavery and those inconsistencies can in part be resolved by this. Some inconsistencies might be something that is a real inconsistency in the Amarr cultural sphere.

I agree wholeheartedly.  I think the vastness and the decentralization of the Amarr Empire really allows for a lot of different takes on slavery to exist simultaneously without it being ridiculous.

The way I see it, the tendency to think of slaves as irredeemably 'subhuman' tends to coincide with the economic need for perpetual slavery (a la the US plantation model) or in a situation where there isn't the expectation of a fresh replenishment of new slave labor from newly conquered enemies.

The Amarr seem to be in a completely different situation that when combined with the 'educate to elevate' model, would seem to tend away from the US model.  However, like you said, that's become part of the lore anyhow, so I think it's valid.  Plus, the sense of economic and imperial satisfaction that might help tend away from the 'subhuman' model can easily be discounted when conditions change.  After conquering the Matari, the Amarr didn't really conquer anyone else for awhile and Matari slaves-particularly unskilled labor, were difficult to control.  So I could see how that could lead some people to adopt a 'subhuman' model.  Ultimately, I think there's an element present in either model, just presented differently.
1
I'll have to look up some of Daerth's posts.  That could be telling
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Elmund Egivand on 28 Aug 2016, 22:07
Here's a little blurb I haven't yet written anywhere.

Clan Egivand's pre-Rebellion history was as such. The Clan is made out of former slaves of one Holder who had planetside and orbital assets. One of the Clan's big quarrel against said Holder was that when the Holder was branching out into space industries, one of the things he did was sell off slaves he didn't need to other Holders to build capital, all of whom are members of families that would eventually come together under the leadership of one 'Elder Egivand'. This whole 'families split up and being sold off' deal was one of the many things that precipitated the local rebellion (Also one of the most important ones too. Families growing apart to do work for corporations that do not quite care about their well-being was a factor that led to the Clan deciding to move out of Republic space).

That was my point against slavery. Not to say 'selling non-vital slaves' is the norm in the Amarr Empire, but the slavery system allows for such a thing to happen, I believe. That would be one of the dark sides of Imperial Slavery system.

Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Mitara Newelle on 02 Sep 2016, 15:46
I'll add my $0.02 if you'd like.  I'm still navigating Mit's motives and feelings about slaves so it's not rock solid yet and at times may contradict itself -

Her goal is to enlighten her slaves and not about cheap labor. Being stupidly rich(by baseliner standards) gives her some freedom to embrace this more than other less well off Holders may be able to.  It is a directive from God to bring His Word to the heathens so she's going to do it, whether they like it or not :)

Mit doesn't have any problems with hard labor and demeaning slaves, she views it like how the military tends to tear a person down to be rebuilt they way they want -

"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5

When it comes to slaves being property, Mit doesn't have any issue with that, it's just the way it is.  She's not going to treat her property badly, and they have a purpose - to become enlighted beings, but she's not above pressing her rights and stripping away any granted agency if needed.

There is a bit of racist streak in Mit, so no matter what, a vast majority of her slaves would always be beneath her on racial traits alone and she will treat them accordingly.

In her stocks she has slaves doing all manner of work, from lowly manual labor to incredibly personal and trusted tasks.






Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Louella Dougans on 03 Sep 2016, 00:22
There is a bit of racist steak in Mit.

zomg, what restaurant did you go to ? :O
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Samira Kernher on 04 Sep 2016, 02:54
Sorry for the late reply to this, I haven't been around much recently.

As someone that has been RPing a former slave character myself, I've tended to treat slavery as per Chained to the Sky. That is, slaves as just the working class laborers for the Amarr. More "free" than what one traditionally considers a slave by the simple fact that when 50% of your society is slaves and they fill the vast majority of blue collar jobs we see in real life, you have to get your mind away from the highly isolated plantation/single estate idea of slavery because it just doesn't work in a heavily populated and technologically advanced society. While plantations and work camps and the like do absolutely exist in Amarr I tend to equate them with lower generation slaves, 1st or 2nd generation, who still have to be 'broken in'. Once they've become sufficiently indoctrinated and integrated into society, the standard of living and freedoms goes up (it's gradually increasing the level of rewards for productive and obedient service, while also reducing the costs of Holder by not having to micromanage as much and engaging slaves in the economy). By the higher generations, you're probably a slave only really in name. Chained to the Sky at least shows them choosing to walk about on their own, go to a bar (that's frequented by commoners as well), order and pay for their own food, etc. And EVE Source talks about even miner slaves getting vacation times which includes unsupervised visits to a nearby major city.

So, how I've RPed it with my slave's background, as a very high generation slave (12 or 13 or so) is that her family had their own (small) house, in a slave/commoner district, with good education, typical working hours (if long, and working even during youth), and a limited form of currency (limited in that it can only be used on "approved" purchases, like food and basic home supplies and personal possessions, rather than anything you want) and ability to shop in normal stores. Still limited choice in the type of education and occupations, as that'd all be based on the needs of the Holder and somewhat by the skillset of the slave.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Mitara Newelle on 07 Sep 2016, 15:56
I meant to get into the generational aspect but forgot, Sami pretty much mirrors my thoughts though.  The newer(generationally speaking) the slave, the less free they are and the more shit jobs they have, the older have more freedom and less back breaking work.
Title: Re: A question about 'everyday' slavery life in Amarr
Post by: Aldrith Shutaq on 12 Sep 2016, 05:43
Slave education is also an interesting factor to take into account, as their jobs and training methods can be selected and applied since before birth. Selective breeding, indoctrination methods, and focused training need not only apply to Kamieras; you can apply it to make scientist slaves, artisan slaves, lawyer slaves, doctor slaves, ect. Just about any profession you could think of could be filled by a specialized slave, excepting any job that wields real power and authority, so no slave governors or generals. Chances are they'll be really good at those jobs too, though loyalty is an issue since the smarter a slave is the more likely they are figure out ways to rebel, escape or just get out of work.

PF does often mention that the status of slaves and commoners can be really close, with some slaves having more comfortable and accomplished lives than poorer freemen. They just don't get credit or influential wealth for any of their accomplishments, with their motivation coming from the threat of their quality of life being downgraded by their owner.