Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Ria Nieyli on 13 Jan 2016, 02:20
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I see a lot of people just straight up listing FW as unimportant. Why? Is there anything meaningful that you can actually do ingame?
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It's a complicated mix of issues:
-Pushback against people talking up FW as the best or only way to demonstrate faction loyalty, which is (for some incomprehensible reason) important to some;
-Dislike of the fact that FW is unwinnable by design, and the consequences considered to be mostly isolated to a few backwater regions.
-Really sour grapes.
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Earlier when entosising a system to draw a fight, and Welp we did someone made the comment they didn't even realize faction warfare alliances could hold sovereignty... That seems utterly ridiculous that someone would even question that they could until I thought about how people talk down about FW.
I have even had potential recruits say "I love the cheap doctrine oriented PVP you guys do I would totally join up if you weren't just an FW corp" but, that statement makes no real sense. What do pirate corps have? Moons, pocos? We could do that too. What do null corps have? Allies and sov? We can do that too. And wormholes sure as hell don't eject our ships for being FW.
I honestly blame this attitude on many peoples first encounters with FW being stabbed NPC corp farmers. It makes them think that we are noobs who don't know what they are doing which isn't close to the truth faction warfare empowers you to get all sorts of additional content at the cost of making highsec a bit more annoying and not being able to do I in a few stations btw both things that null or pirate players will deal with. Heck bebop will be Bridge a proteus fleet on you, and that is pretty scary to me.
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FW has only been as important as those participating in it have attached value to its activities. Historically, it's always been less about the official narrative about the factions and more about the conflict narratives between different player groups and personalities over the years. Which really is not any different to anywhere else in Eve.
There has however always existed a degree of expectation among roleplayers especially, that FW should be a, "Proper," conflict fought only between political and ideological loyalists who all have to abide by certain rules like it's some kind of LARP fought in a park and presided over by GM's who enforce those rules and who provide an overarching narrative.
As FW has developed though, it has essentially become analogous to a third-world conflict fought in some resource rich backwater and conducted by a varied collection of corporate mercenaries, adventurers, war profiteers, paramilitary groups, and soldiers of fortune that have turned entire sectors of low-sec into the New Eden versions of Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Chechnya or eastern Ukraine.
The latter however, while I find realistic to the setting of Eve, does cause problems for those that desire some kind of factional Grand Narrative provided by CCP within the setting of FW.
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I see.
I view FW as sov lite. You get to go on fleets, flip systems or just generally shoot people that are trying to do the same to you while going "Grrr opposing faction". The narrative is real, just by the virtue of people joining said opposing faction and trying to turn your ship into a wreck.
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Well, FW is still much like the rest of Eve in that you seek to set your own objectives and then go out and seek to accomplish them while contextualizing your actions as you see fit.
That said, there will always be objectives that fall in realistic expectations and ones that fall into unrealistic expectations within the scope of the game mechanics and other player behaviour. Setting objectives for yourself with unrealistic expectations of how the mechanics should be, and how others should behave is a fantastic way to set yourself on the road of burnout, disappointment, bitterness, and participation in the Eve is dying thread of the week/month/year.
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Err, the EVE community has some preset expectations of what players' objectives should be and it spares no time to tell them exactly that.
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FW has only been as important as those participating in it have attached value to its activities. Historically, it's always been less about the official narrative about the factions and more about the conflict narratives between different player groups and personalities over the years. Which really is not any different to anywhere else in Eve.
There has however always existed a degree of expectation among roleplayers especially, that FW should be a, "Proper," conflict fought only between political and ideological loyalists who all have to abide by certain rules like it's some kind of LARP fought in a park and presided over by GM's who enforce those rules and who provide an overarching narrative.
As FW has developed though, it has essentially become analogous to a third-world conflict fought in some resource rich backwater and conducted by a varied collection of corporate mercenaries, adventurers, war profiteers, paramilitary groups, and soldiers of fortune that have turned entire sectors of low-sec into the New Eden versions of Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Chechnya or eastern Ukraine.
The latter however, while I find realistic to the setting of Eve, does cause problems for those that desire some kind of factional Grand Narrative provided by CCP within the setting of FW.
+1
With the only addition of mentioning that some of the FW roleplaying groups could have coupled "economic/social" development to a particular contested system and try to sway things into some interesting storytelling along the way...but most just focus on the "i won this system for my faction".
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I don't want to sound like I am talking negatively about Faction Warfare or claiming it is unimportant especially being as casual and EVE player as I am...
But I've had some of the highest peaks being involved in EVE FW in gaming alongside the worst lows. This game can be an abysmal waste of time being locked into what is effectively frigate and destroyer combat where groups stubbornly refuse to fight at all but can be incredibly enjoyable when larger groups of players fight it out or larger ships are involved.
Worst bit of FW EVE side is the nonsense on the forums... its a wholly unwelcoming experience. I mean reading those comments there are militia's you couldn't pay me to join... and if given the chance to re-do my FW career over I'm not sure I'd even be in the Militia I am currently in.
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Err, the EVE community has some preset expectations of what players' objectives should be and it spares no time to tell them exactly that.
The Eve community doesn't pay my subscription, so I don't feel I have to care what their expectations may or may not be.
That doesn't change the fact that FW is at core just a free wardec with an associated revenue stream. If people enjoy that, then they do. If they don't, then they don't. Some personal or character goals synchronize well with FW, and others don't.
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With the only addition of mentioning that some of the FW roleplaying groups could have coupled "economic/social" development to a particular contested system and try to sway things into some interesting storytelling along the way...but most just focus on the "i won this system for my faction".
The problem with that is, as always, the impossibility of achieving anything lasting in FW. It can be heartbreaking to pick a homesystem, claim it as your own, and attempt to develop and defend it - because there is essentially nothing you can do to control the meta-narrative of the pendulum effect of the warzone. The Macro-War is simply bigger than you are - and for every Heydieles where we successfully defended a system there have been about five Enaluris where we got kicked out anyway.
So, it's very easy to say "I took that system for Deh Emprehhs" or whatever - the achievement is logged. It's real. It happened. But you have to maintain the freedom to walk away from that victory, because two weeks later the surging and vital forces of Tribal Liberation are trumpeting their victory in the forums. And two weeks later, you get YOUR turn again.
Personally, I've tried to never play that game, because it is SO susceptible to the whole "so what?" syndrome. Most of the RP excitement over FW has gone well and truly stale and cold and all that remains is tight Cruiser and smaller small-gang PvP. But you can get some very nice scraps in FW, on very short notice and at a very reasonable investment!
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With the only addition of mentioning that some of the FW roleplaying groups could have coupled "economic/social" development to a particular contested system and try to sway things into some interesting storytelling along the way...but most just focus on the "i won this system for my faction".
The problem with that is, as always, the impossibility of achieving anything lasting in FW. It can be heartbreaking to pick a homesystem, claim it as your own, and attempt to develop and defend it - because there is essentially nothing you can do to control the meta-narrative of the pendulum effect of the warzone. The Macro-War is simply bigger than you are - and for every Heydieles where we successfully defended a system there have been about five Enaluris where we got kicked out anyway.
So, it's very easy to say "I took that system for Deh Emprehhs" or whatever - the achievement is logged. It's real. It happened. But you have to maintain the freedom to walk away from that victory, because two weeks later the surging and vital forces of Tribal Liberation are trumpeting their victory in the forums. And two weeks later, you get YOUR turn again.
Personally, I've tried to never play that game, because it is SO susceptible to the whole "so what?" syndrome. Most of the RP excitement over FW has gone well and truly stale and cold and all that remains is tight Cruiser and smaller small-gang PvP. But you can get some very nice scraps in FW, on very short notice and at a very reasonable investment!
Yeah, but nullsec is susceptible to someone coming over and taking your system from you by force as well.
As for cruisers and down, all the complaints I hear about it sound like just bittervetting. And mind you, a bittervet isn't someone with lots of experience in the game. A bittervet is someone that has something change on him and couldn't adapt. Because for all the self-aggrandisement that the EVE community does, saying how good they are, they seem to be just as bad as everyone else. It's extremely jarring for a new player.
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However, when you own nullsec systems you can prop your own shite there and also do some resource development.
In FW, you just take a system, claim some LPs and get along with it. Losing the system doesn't really give you much consequences beyond giving the occupiers an easier time to kick your POS, another staging ground for the occupiers, having your in-station stuff locked up (though retrievable by simply leaving FW or by contracting stuff to third party to move from station) and earning less LP from doing anything FW-related.
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Station systems are extremely important strategically. Less so with the coming of citadels. But hey, citadels! Now you can prop up your shit ANYWHERE.
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Station systems are extremely important strategically.
As I said, another staging ground and having your own stuff locked up. However, the advantages of owning something in FW isn't nearly as comprehensive as taking and owning a nullsec system.
And you can always go around the 'stuff locked up' consequence of losing your system in FW, and pretty easily at that. In Nullsec, you evacuate within the allocated period before that system really does end up going to the other guy or all the asset becomes theirs for the taking. Not to mention the resource development.
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What's the advantage of owning a nullsec system? You can't stop hostiles from coming in. You can mine the moons without having sov in it. Etc. etc. etc. Mechanically it's no different from proclaiming that you own a lowsec system.
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What's the advantage of owning a nullsec system? You can't stop hostiles from coming in. You can mine the moons without having sov in it. Etc. etc. etc. Mechanically it's no different from proclaiming that you own a lowsec system.
You still forgot the part where you can make the system more valuable (more ores, better rats, better anomalies, better DED complexes) with the Development Index mechanic.
Also a spot to build supercaps if you want to.
And POSes using 25% less fuel.
And the ability to control traffic through the system to some extent with Cynosural Suppression/Navigation upgrades to the iHub.
As such owning a nullsec system can be seen as more prestigious and the system owners are more bent on defending particularly valuable systems. There's so much more to lose. You can't 'so what' on sov nullsec as much as compared to FW.
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Yes, you can and people have been doing it for months. Sov null, big fucking whoop. Prestige of owning a system means exactly nothing when people can fly into it, kill you and fly out. It's just a reason for a fight.
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With the only addition of mentioning that some of the FW roleplaying groups could have coupled "economic/social" development to a particular contested system and try to sway things into some interesting storytelling along the way...but most just focus on the "i won this system for my faction".
The problem with that is, as always, the impossibility of achieving anything lasting in FW. It can be heartbreaking to pick a homesystem, claim it as your own, and attempt to develop and defend it - because there is essentially nothing you can do to control the meta-narrative of the pendulum effect of the warzone. The Macro-War is simply bigger than you are - and for every Heydieles where we successfully defended a system there have been about five Enaluris where we got kicked out anyway.
So, it's very easy to say "I took that system for Deh Emprehhs" or whatever - the achievement is logged. It's real. It happened. But you have to maintain the freedom to walk away from that victory, because two weeks later the surging and vital forces of Tribal Liberation are trumpeting their victory in the forums. And two weeks later, you get YOUR turn again.
Personally, I've tried to never play that game, because it is SO susceptible to the whole "so what?" syndrome. Most of the RP excitement over FW has gone well and truly stale and cold and all that remains is tight Cruiser and smaller small-gang PvP. But you can get some very nice scraps in FW, on very short notice and at a very reasonable investment!
Yeah, but nullsec is susceptible to someone coming over and taking your system from you by force as well.
As for cruisers and down, all the complaints I hear about it sound like just bittervetting. And mind you, a bittervet isn't someone with lots of experience in the game. A bittervet is someone that has something change on him and couldn't adapt. Because for all the self-aggrandisement that the EVE community does, saying how good they are, they seem to be just as bad as everyone else. It's extremely jarring for a new player.
I totally see that there is no "lasting" effect since every sytem can be lost and taken gazzillion times...but i find extremely interesting to attemp something like what IPI does with Intaki for example....assemble POS, fill the market, create PI facilities....and then deal with the fact your faction just lost control of the area...how to keep your business afloat and deal with the adversity.....smuggle goods, subcontract haulers and mercs because you want the business to continue and make a presence....
it is meaningless in the grand scheme of things for the Federation...but it does carry meaning for myself and those who do that. And that storytelling is enough ....and it may spark a news item in the official site if its interesting enough.
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Part of the reason I consider FW largely meaningless, personally, is that the rules associated with being in a militia are entirely meaningless in the places that they should mean the most.
You are at war with the two opposing militias and their parent states. There is absolutely no valid reason that someone in X militia should be able to run around willy-nillly in enemy highsec without being properly engaged by the Navy (aka, scrammed and/or pointed), let alone able to dock in the first place.
That latter bit in particular. Why the hell is that rule enforced in lowsec but not in the major, supposedly more policed, population centers of highsec? Utterly fucking ridiculous.
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Then why are -10 sec status characters able to dock in Empire space? Fac navies chase them all the same as opposing militia members.
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Sec status is a CONCORD thing, not a war thing, and only refers to your actions between you and other capsuleers, not the empires. And, for the record, those NPC spawns actually tackle you.
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Part of the reason I consider FW largely meaningless, personally, is that the rules associated with being in a militia are entirely meaningless in the places that they should mean the most.
You are at war with the two opposing militias and their parent states. There is absolutely no valid reason that someone in X militia should be able to run around willy-nillly in enemy highsec without being properly engaged by the Navy (aka, scrammed and/or pointed), let alone able to dock in the first place.
That latter bit in particular. Why the hell is that rule enforced in lowsec but not in the major, supposedly more policed, population centers of highsec? Utterly fucking ridiculous.
This is perhaps my biggest issue as well.
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Sec status is a CONCORD thing, not a war thing, and only refers to your actions between you and other capsuleers, not the empires. And, for the record, those NPC spawns actually tackle you.
CONCORD or not, it's the faction navies that pursue you for low sec status. It's the exact same punitive mechanic as having low standing, or being in an opposing militia. The difference is that having lowsec makes everyone chase you.
Speaking of which, CalMil personnel with -5 sec gets attacked by the Caldari Navy in highsec. CCPls.
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those mechanics have been largely inherited from way back....using standings, sec status and other half-baked features...
Its one of those NPC / PvE things that needs revisiting...but it is obviously very low priority.
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It's the exact same punitive mechanic as having low standing, or being in an opposing militia.
The Navy getting involved w/r/t sec issues doesn't validate your argument, specifically because this line is inaccurate at best, and patently false at worst.
The "exact same punitive mechanic" would have militia members being tackled by the FW spawns in highsec, in addition to the standings/sec ones. If I have good sec and otherwise good standings (not really that difficult), the NPCs that spawn in enemy highsec because of being in militia will never tackle me. Ever. They are hard-coded NOT to.
The notion that the empires are allowed to tackle pilots who've nuked their security status (via attacking other capsuleers) or their standings, but not pilots that are actively at war with them, who may be neither criminal in CONCORD's eyes nor of poor standings due to the mechanics or simply being fresh meat, is 100% flat-out ridiculous, and simply adds to the feeling that FW is meaningless: your actions in the warzone don't have any effect in what is supposed to be the safer, most populated parts of enemy space.
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I don't understand what YOUR problem with that is. I mean, seriously, the entire FW is unimportant because NPCs don't shoot you enough in highsec? Really?
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There are no tangible consequences for actions taken in the warzone, in the places that should have the most consequences for actions taken there outside of a largely meaningless "whose name is on the system's sovereignty" statistic. Its lack of realism utterly destroys any immersion or suspension of disbelief.
Actions should have consequences. FW lacks the vast majority of those consequences, and on top of that, doesn't have a particularly big impact on the rest of the game at large.
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So that's an yes.
No, seriously, if it bothers you that much that enemy faction players are traversing your space too freely, get in a ship and shoot them. Wait, is that the same in nullsec or anywhere else? Guess not, because in FW, NPCs should shoot you. As for exerting influence on the rest of the game is it less or more than being an unafilliated pirate? What about hubfights which the Militias hire lowsec allies for? Guess that's nothing.
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Thats the problem. Unless you are in the militia, you get concorded if you shoot at enemy militia in your faction's space.
And yes, I do fly FW with my other character, and yes, she does try to hunt TLF in empire space at which point they usually dock, in freaking Emperor Family Academy in the Throne Worlds.
(and I love FW, don't get me wrong, but it could be better integrated into the rest of new eden in ways that make sense)
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Well, unless you've wardecced my personal corp, CONCORD will get you if you shoot me in highsec too. FW is the perfect place to start out your PVP career and it certainly does have options for higher-level gameplay, if you choose to stay in it.
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Then why are -10 sec status characters able to dock in Empire space? Fac navies chase them all the same as opposing militia members.
I don't see why criminals should be allowed to dock either. Why should they?
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And people with -10 faction standing can dock in the respective faction's stations in highsec as well.
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Well, unless you've wardecced my personal corp, CONCORD will get you if you shoot me in highsec too.
Not true. Anyone in Galmil or Minmil can shoot you anywhere in EVE, legally, without needing to wardec your corp directly.
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Yes, because we're in a mutual wardec. Q.E.D
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Opinions vary, but people have talked down facwar since launch, as much was promised and not delivered, along with years of broken/abused mechanics and general abandonment as a feature by the devs.
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And as I already mentioned, FW doesn't carry as much consequence as, say, nullsec.
First off, the consequence of losing a FW system don't really hurt all that much. Inconvenient, perhaps, but not exactly something so painful it makes you want to rage quit. Losing a system in nullsec hurts ALOT MORE. In fact, you can even be kicked out of nullsec entirely (as has happened quite a bunch of times), and you can even kick people out of nullsec entirely (also happened a bunch of times). You do not get shite like that going in FW.
Secondly, there's also the lack of perceived solidarity in FW. If you are in Nullsec and you are a Goon, and everybody else who isn't red to you is also a Goon or allies. In FW, even if you guys are all militia, the guy who is blue to you can be somebody else you wouldn't be sharing your lunch with. Loyalists rubbing shoulders with somebody from the other side who is on this side for the sake of profit and will switch over at a moment's notice and etc.
Finally, there's the narrative angle as well. FW is one of those places where the narrative barely changes when anything happens. Losing all of your FW space to the other side? Your faction didn't lose, didn't suffer from economic consequence, didn't lose their minds, nope, nada, nothing. This is at odds with, say, nullsec or w-space where the side which loses actually do lose their assets, get a hit in the corp wallet, get a hit in the cash-flow, actually have their name wiped out of that particular chunk of nullsec/w-space.
Now put yourself in the boots of a third party who is observing the people in FW and the people in Nullsec and then form an impression. Personally, if I were that observer, I will conclude that FW pilots are playing some kind of sandbox freeroam game that only sometimes get together to get something done in the short term, while the guys in Null are playing games of Civ and will collectively lose their shit if somebody comes over to grab a couple of hexes that has all the good moon goo on it.
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FW is a endless tug of war with no victory condition and no real effect on anything but itself. While many people may enjoy participating in it affects nothing and therefor many people are likely to value anything achieved within it as meaningless.
Basically CCP fucked up and gave us a terrible FW system.
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What's the victory condition in nullsec?
The involved numbers and prices are higher - although the majority of the assets involved are not individually owned.
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What's the victory condition in nullsec?
The involved numbers and prices are higher - although the majority of the assets involved are not individually owned.
Getting evicted is a pretty clear sign of having lost.
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So it's the same victory condition.
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Players tend to assign 'value' to game objective and ships based on how relatively valuable they are, IE you are more upset losing your titan than losing your frigate, because you might save up for months for your titan, but you might make enough to fully fit dozens of facwar ships in a few hours.
People who look down on facwar do so because the time investment/assets at risk tend to be lower-tier ships that don't 'hurt' when lost. So for them screwing around and losing a bunch of cruisers or frigates, etc is not high stakes leet enough, right?
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Pretty much.
Although one can question whether on an individual level an expensive fully SRP'd ship hurts more than a cheap one you personally bought or less.
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Late to this thread, but I'll add something I think that isn't yet mentioned but critical to the topic being discussed:
The reason system control is felt to matter so little is that it is, by and large these days, outside the control of entities that actually care about the continued success of their faction. Instead, it depends in large part upon the pendulum-like allegiances of large-scale LP farmers who participate solely to capture systems for the immediate monetary benefit.
Some of them are semipermanent residents who switch sides into pre-established holding corps, some are alts that are inactive and only 'wake up' at the right times, some are other lowsec/nullsec dwellers that join the most profitable side at a given time.
Contrast this to nullsec, where fighting is typically an ISK sink. Nobody ever got rich by fighting a sov war; they won by holding and exploiting the systems they capture.
This feeds a perception that taking a system doesn't matter, because the actual ability to hold it is largely outside your control.
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Are you talking about old or new nullsec, because entosing a system no one lives in is pretty much like plex farming without the payout.
Systems do matter - when a group lives in one it's pretty difficult to evict them and requires a coordinated effort, regardless where that is.
Regarding the perception this may be a combination of :bittervet: and the fact that every militia has someone vomiting over the IGS whenever they need some quick PR points about 'the liberation of random system'. In 9/10 cases it's not linked to any real combat action and concerns a system that's neither important to local pirates nor militia groups. Baseliners rejoice!
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Farmers contest systems but thry don't bash ihubs. I have FCed a few hub bash fleets and I can't recall a single one I ran being uncontested. Pvpers fought over those systems. My alliance gets about 1/3rd of it's kills in null these days and even the investment in ships is very similar between similar sized groups of you compare hub fleets to entosis fleets. The frig fleets are a function of plexing fleets.
I think there is the rather erroneous idea that farmers flip systems but at least in the Amarr/minmatar warzone farmers just plex up backwater systems and plexing fleets tend to take it to vulnrable. These fleets get Into lots of plex restricted fights. Farmers have a huge impact on holding the warzone and tier, but they don't have that much of an impact on home systems.
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Well, this has been enlightening.
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There are no tangible consequences for actions taken in the warzone, in the places that should have the most consequences for actions taken there outside of a largely meaningless "whose name is on the system's sovereignty" statistic. Its lack of realism utterly destroys any immersion or suspension of disbelief.
Actions should have consequences. FW lacks the vast majority of those consequences, and on top of that, doesn't have a particularly big impact on the rest of the game at large.
And yet, operating in Low-Sec is, basically, what skulls your sec-status - unless you're happy to wait for neutrals to fire first (which sane people should never be). FW doesn't have NO consequences at all - it's a never-ending war dec against tens of thousands of pilots who can come into your highsec and pop you while you're shopping - no questions asked. It kills your security status. It blocked me from participating in half of the live events, when they used to happen - hell, being a Caldari patriot would have barred me from defending the Caldari homeworld if Veiki hadn't pulled us out of Fac War for the event!
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I think we both know that you shouldn't be losing sec for shooting neutrals in a warzone, especially not if they come into a plex or FW mission. And the whole tags4sec mechanic negates sec loss and just puts a mildly ISK pricetag on fixing it instantly every one in a while anyway, unlike what it used to be where you had to actually suffer through grinding rats to raise your sec again. At which point you're still not going to be seeing meaningful consequences for your actions in enemy highsec.
FW still isn't having much of an impact on the world at large outside of the color of a system on a map, which is - again - the crux of my reason for considering it as largely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. You aren't punished enough by the opposing side for taking part. That your primary problems are coming from having low security status don't really invalidate my argument: in fact they strengthen it because those are issues you'd have if you WEREN'T in FW. Just being in FW alone doesn't have significant consequences on its own, which it should.
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Being wardecced by the other side gives their players the ability to shoot you. Just because they don't hunt you down enough in highsec doesn't mean that the system doesn't punish you enough. This should be a sandbox after all.
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FW still isn't having much of an impact on the world at large outside of the color of a system on a map, which is - again - the crux of my reason for considering it as largely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. You aren't punished enough by the opposing side for taking part. That your primary problems are coming from having low security status don't really invalidate my argument: in fact they strengthen it because those are issues you'd have if you WEREN'T in FW. Just being in FW alone doesn't have significant consequences on its own, which it should.
By that definition everything you do in EVE is pointless. Plant flags on a random map and get richer - who cares?
What consequences should FW participation entail over any other activity in EVE and why are lowsec docking rights and being open for pvp in highsec not relevant?
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If you read my previous posts you'd see that my issue there is that the restrictions in lowsec don't carry over to highsec, where you'd think they'd be even MORE important.
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It's a third rail for a lot of people because it combines all of the game systems that could arguably need some of the most attention (sov, sec status, farming, lore, in-game consequences, etc), all in one gameplay package.
It's a lot of stuff to unpack, and I imagine not a can of worms that devs arent eager to open and have spill everywhere for want of fixing one part and having it unravel more?
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If you read my previous posts you'd see that my issue there is that the restrictions in lowsec don't carry over to highsec, where you'd think they'd be even MORE important.
I've read your post the first time around, TYVM.
You're at war both in low & highsec. Which means highsec is not safe. There are inconsistencies with docking rights and resulting station games but in the end: Being in FW makes highsec not safe, especially not in non-combat ready ships. By increasing these penalties for one side you'd remove penalties from the other side and achieve nothing but easier carebearing.
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I see a lot of people just straight up listing FW as unimportant. Why? Is there anything meaningful that you can actually do ingame?
You simply could list these people as unimportant, especially if they do it in-character. :lol: