Backstage - OOC Forums

General Discussion => Moderation Discussion => Topic started by: Mizhara on 03 Dec 2015, 21:37

Title: Break a leg.
Post by: Mizhara on 03 Dec 2015, 21:37
As with all good things, they must come to an end. I debated where to put this post, but it didn't quite seem to fit into any of the subforums so into off-topic it goes. I feel that even though I may be one of the most moderated posters on this board, I've contributed quite nicely since the days a few of us gathered on Scagga's little sub-forum to discuss a potential new board after Chatsubo grew intolerable. Days of optimism, both cautious and with wild abandon. Careful deliberation on rulesets and how to avoid just copypasting the problem on a new template. The discussion on both boards when it went live, about hidden motives and outright hostilities. About cross posting, police states, pigdogs and we-didn't-want-you-there-anyway etc.

They were heady times, uncertain and even forging ahead into unknown territory.

We succeeded though. Damn we succeeded. Backstage should be recognized for what it was and what it is. A gigantic success from very humble and mean origins. It is easily the greatest collection of ramblings, world-building, fiction, discussion and more from the Eve RP community and it has weathered every challenge it has faced. A few of us have been around since the beginning, even if many has fallen to the wayside along the way, and many new contributors have come along since. Some of us has come, gone, come again and so on. Some have burned brightly and burned out, others have never really sparked much and some few have kept an even glow throughout the whole history of this place.

Still, an end must eventually come, and this is mine.

The Moderation Discussion board holds a few locked threads on a topic I felt warranted discussion. They certainly had the potential to turn out poorly and then locked, but hadn't reached that point yet. While the topic itself was not important enough that I'd be overly annoyed if the discussion didn't solve the issues raised, the way the discussion was stamped out before it was allowed to even occur was a step too far for me. I would even go so far as to say stamping out any talk on the subject with official moderation amounts to censorship.

I have since contacted the moderators Havohej, Morwen and Silver Night in shared PMs. Havohej largely responded with abuse, Morwen did not respond at all (but let me know why in-game, and I fully understand his position which shall remain between me and him until/if he chooses otherwise) and Silver responded with fair and thoughtful reason, even if we didn't agree on the subject. I have, by the way, taken screenshots of all those PMs just in case I need to document both what I have said and what has been said to me.

This disagreement overall on the two separate topics of moderators adhering to the same or higher standards than the users, and how such things needs to be a matter users (and moderators) can discuss openly as long as certain standards of discussion is kept to, is a little too important for me to remain a contributor on this site. The differences in opinion on this matter is a little too severe and it would be hypocritical of me to continue to as a contributor in tacit support of what I feel is an unacceptable approach by the moderation team. That said, I want to make it clear that I do respect both Morwen and Silver and the job they're volunteering for on this site. Morwen often has to take the role of the bad guy, being the most active moderator and Silver certainly strives to be reasonable and decent even in disagreements. They have earned that respect, even though they have been amazing headaches for me and I have railed and even gotten angry at the both of them at times. I still appreciate it when they do their jobs, and they almost always do the job flawlessly. This decision to leave is not even remotely about that, but about the stifling of discussions that could improve moderation or at the very least clarify situations where it is less than optimal.

As I started with above, I do feel I've contributed here. In fiction. In world-building. In shitposting, here in off-topic and elsewhere. Raising the bar and standards in the catacombs occasionally, and generally adding a touch of class and thuggery alike sometimes. Narcissistic and arrogant it may be, but I think this place will actually be a little lessened by my absence, but I can see no other option available to me as my continued presence would be a tacit approval of something I just can't approve of.

I just ask that everyone reading this sit back and remember what this place is.

A resounding success. A truly inspiring place, where people holding wildly different opinions on the mercurial and chaotic subject of RP in New Eden come together to lock horns, smooth over differences, discuss and explore the wilderness of New Eden's characters and themes, forge alliances and perform that wonderful thing that holds a special meaning to all roleplayers worth their salt...

Creation.

Of men and women. Societies and nations. Entire worlds and universes. The most simple and insignificant of thoughts.

Don't forget that this place is very much a special place, and it has become that place through a whole lot of work by a whole lot of people coming together. At first, a few in a smoke-filled room and eventually a whole line of people great and small contributing a little or a lot. Don't lose sight of how great this place can be, or take it for granted. I may not be able to contribute anymore, but that is on me and my conscience. You can.

Backstage is where the magic happens. So rehearse your lines, explore your characters, shoot the shit with your co-actors and then...

Break a leg.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 04 Dec 2015, 03:26
Backstage was a forum on steroids, one of the best I have had the occasion to post in, with a lot of great people.

The community decaying as well as the atmosphere, and the mod team I feel having lost their ways somewhere in the process, doesnt make it true today in my view.

There seems to be a power struggle between the mod and the folks, and the sad thing is that there is a clear lack of willingness to admit that there is a problem, as the state of things clearly attests. Scagga created a thread himself on the matter a while back, and nobody of the admins, seemed to care.

Cling to the little power you still have if you want, plug your ears, through whatever means you need to... The ball is in your yard eventually. I am more and more considering that the team is the crux of the problem and the source of what the forum has turned into. I have so many PMs from various people, active and participating members as well as people that just got disgusted of it, that it's uncanny.

I am also considering to drop it altogether considering how obnoxious the mod team has become.

Maybe hypocritical from the most contributive member of the forum, but whatever.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: The Rook on 04 Dec 2015, 04:52
Casual observation regarding moderation: seeing a lack of etiquette is human but a bit disappointing in some folks as it violates the set standards in a very unsided manner. However, moderation is a thankless job.

Does this have an impact on the quality and quantity of the content discussed here?
Not really. There's not much going on beyond community members drawing lines in the sand or whining about more or less everything.  This is bittervet overflow and the reason people don't bother posting or coming back to start discussing.
A negative environment isn't inviting.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Louella Dougans on 04 Dec 2015, 05:38
bye o/
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Utari Onzo on 04 Dec 2015, 07:10
As someone outside of all this drama over past things and former banned members, I feel confident saying I honestly don't give a flying fuck about those issues as I wasn't a part of them, nor is it my business to get involved.

Miz, what interaction I have had with you OOC (including our fanbois moment the other night over a bunch of stuff) has been pretty good overall. We haven't really interacted much IC, which is a bit sad, but none the less I hope things go well for you. If you're sticking around for eve, great, see you flip side there. If not, maybe we'll bump into each other on another game.

Regardless, forums are just forums. There's always plenty of places to shoot the shit. Backstage is nice, but it's not a be all and end all for roleplay within Eve.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 04 Dec 2015, 08:14
I'm not sure what to say, as always it's complicated.

Wish you best of luck, hit me up on steam: TakeItEasyMon

As for mods/modding, its also always complicated.  It does look different on the other side sometimes, but in general just about everyone who ever gets banned deserves it for multiple reasons, believe me I know. But mods do make mistakes and there's always room for communication improvement.

Im not involved/don't know about this latest round of stuff so no opinions on any specifics here.

This is pretty much my only tie left to eve people so the dwindling population here is always sad :/

Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: The Rook on 04 Dec 2015, 08:28
You could come back and become an avocado smuggler with us, Silas.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 04 Dec 2015, 08:48
The problem Silas, is not really about who gets banned and if it's justified. Besides the banned people, I don't see a lot of people complaining there.

Also, communication improvement implies that the team is willing to listen in the first place, which wasn't exactly the case again in the last censorship show.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Sofia Roseburn on 04 Dec 2015, 09:02
I've moderated a few turbonerds in my time, FHC being what it is and legitimately the most frustrating thing for me was posters trying to tell me how to interpret and apply the rules of the forum. At the end of the day, if you have an issue you contact the moderators in a reasonable fashion, not continuing to clamor for attention, posting thread after thread after thread about how you see something as an injustice that needs to be fixed.

It's nice to see that you've finally acknowledged that such things don't have any effect except in the rarest of cases, however, these kinds of "we out" posts are just a giant fuck you to stir up drama as you leave. Disengage graciously, or quietly, or both, otherwise it just comes across as an incessant whine about you finally throwing in the towel after feeling that your opinion isn't validated enough.

In the end, it's just a forum, not a job. Treat it with the irrelevancy that it deserves.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Korsavius on 04 Dec 2015, 13:32
Was tempted to say something dramatic and cheesy like "Et tu, Brute?" but instead I shall leave you with this...

Farewell but shine on you fabulously magnificent, rust-and-uzi wielding bastard.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 04 Dec 2015, 13:44
I've moderated a few turbonerds in my time, FHC being what it is and legitimately the most frustrating thing for me was posters trying to tell me how to interpret and apply the rules of the forum. At the end of the day, if you have an issue you contact the moderators in a reasonable fashion, not continuing to clamor for attention, posting thread after thread after thread about how you see something as an injustice that needs to be fixed.

It's nice to see that you've finally acknowledged that such things don't have any effect except in the rarest of cases, however, these kinds of "we out" posts are just a giant fuck you to stir up drama as you leave. Disengage graciously, or quietly, or both, otherwise it just comes across as an incessant whine about you finally throwing in the towel after feeling that your opinion isn't validated enough.

In the end, it's just a forum, not a job. Treat it with the irrelevancy that it deserves.

What makes you think there has never been private talk with the mods?

One of them was full of direct insults and ad-hominems, and the other one, probably productive on the long run, but eventually didn't bare fruit and reinforced my opinion over what should be a clear cut case of things that should not even be subject to debate in the first place.

But what do we get instead? Disingenuous excuses like "we are not paid for that". That's right. Can I also go insult strangers I don't like in the street and tell them "well, i'm not paid to be polite and respectful"? I can perfectly get that someone can slip at times, I do it like anyone else and hate myself for it. That put aside, when it starts being a recurring pattern though...

So, nobody has even tried to argue against the fact that such behavior would get instant moderation for anyone else. Still waiting for a valid reason.

You speak like having been moderator somehow grants you a certain superiority of argument or position. You are not the only one with that kind of experience.

And i'm not even bringing up the issue that made Mizhara write this, which means shutting down entire threads that you don't like.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Havohej on 04 Dec 2015, 17:20
Quote
I would like to direct your attention to the following:

Q: Isn't all this subjective?
A: Yes. The Mods do their best to be fair, but inevitably, this is a subjective standard. Another thing for you to Deal With.

As a user of Backstage, you were not promised 100% flawless, unerring, fairness and objectivity.  You were promised that we would do our best to maintain an atmosphere where any EVE RPer, regardless of faction or clique, could come and expect to be able to have a civil discussion about EVE RP.

That's what we've been doing and will continue to do, as volunteers on this forum.
The above is a quote of something I told someone else.

Lyn, you - more than anyone else I've encountered here - have a propensity for completely missing or just outright ignoring a point, picking a bit here or a piece there and using them, quite out of context, to support some other point that you're trying to argue.

The thing that you have to understand is that your opinion is not the prevalent opinion of the Mod Team and may not even be the prevalent opinion of the entire forum userbase.  It is your opinion.  Posting it again and again every time you don't get your way in an effort to stir up drama, particularly when targeting a particular team member, does not make your opinion any more or less valid than the first time you posted it.  I dare say that the effort to stir up drama actually weakens it.  If you're familiar with the idea of logical fallacies, and you're smart so I expect you're quite familiar, you know that it doesn't matter how many people you say have PMed you or convo'd you about how they agree with you (Appeal to Popularity) - that's entirely irrelevant to any point you're trying to make (which, obviously, has to be able to stand on its own merit).

We have heard you.  Several times.  We have discussed your points, some of us with you as well as with each other.  And yet, here we are.  Evidently, in the fullness of time it has come about that we have chosen not to agree with and/or act on your opinion.

Another thing for you to Deal With.

The fact of the matter is, and I'll reiterate despite the inherent futility, the fact of the matter is that if someone is making personal attacks at a Moderator and that Mod says something "indelicate" (to use Silver's word) to the person in the course of moderating the post/thread, then we're not going to lose any sleep over it and we're not going to support a call for action against that Moderator (the we're here is referring to myself and Silver - it still only takes one Moderator to decide to moderate a post, even if that post is made by another Team Member).  Any opinions to the contrary are duly noted.

It would be different if someone on the Mod Team was simply shitposting for its own sake and just generally being a bad forum user.  That hasn't been the case in any of these little drama events, that I've seen.

It would be different if a Mod were abusing the Moderation Tools in order to pursue some personal grudge or vendetta.  From what I've been told, this happened once and it was quickly stopped.  This has not been happening, and having recently added two new Moderators to the Team, we will be watching closely to ensure it does not begin to happen again.

Lastly, it would be different if a particular Mod ALWAYS posted indelicately when moderating posts/threads, with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.  That is also a thing that has not been happening.

I can recall two different threads regarding Backstage, its intent and its current status.  In both of these threads, the topic of the Rules and FAQ and how the Mod Team applies them came up.  In both of these threads, the final consensus seemed to be that the Forum in general is healthy, the Community as a whole (such as it is) is about what it should be expected to be given the state of Eve, and there is nothing to see here.

We are not going to up and change everything to suit one person who consistently complains about the same thing.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit two people.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit a vocal minority.  If we up and change everything, it will be because we have seen a negative element grow out of control and recognize that a change needs to be made in order for Backstage to remain a place where any EVE RPer, regardless of faction or clique, can come and expect to be able to have a civil discussion about EVE RP.

That's the idea behind Backstage.  It's the only one I care about.

If the state of affairs here at Backstage is so unacceptable to you, then as I have pointed out to others, you do have alternatives.  If you would like more information about these alternatives, you can ask me about them via PM.  Apparently, offering these alternatives unsolicited is frowned upon in some circles.  I assure you, they're both quite innocuous.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 05 Dec 2015, 04:18
On the quote, I think there is a misunderstanding here. I have never been complaining about the human, flawed side of any moderation. I have been a big supporter of the rules and mod team before it all started to spiral into that particular drama. I have seen cases where things could have been handled better, sure, but that's to be expected. Overall, the job was great, and I see that most people seem to agree with that, myself included. I just don't think that basic polite posting, double standards, and now systematic censorship is part of the idea here... In real life, that's a given. Why not here, where polite posting is the defining trait of that forum? Again, I would direct you to Scagga's post on the matter, if you are more inclined to believe someone that actually said words in the smoke filled room, since that day I only watched it unfold...

If I am ignoring any point, then pray tell me which one! You constantly tell me that you all disagree with me, and yet do not give me a single solid argument against what I have been saying, using instead disingenuous fallacies like "we are not paid for this" (yeah well, i'm not paid to be polite as well too, i'm not paid to put myself at the same standards than anyone else here, especially since i'm not a mod), or ad-hominem like I have a particular vendetta against one of the mods (which doesn't make my point less true). Again, please tell me.

Another thing, you are losing the big picture of sight and focusing on the last issue with PV that prompted that up again. I could care less what happens to PV, and if that was the lone issue, I would attribute it as you say, as the human side of the moderation. The problem however, is that not only you all outdid yourselves this time, but it has become rather endemic. The problem again, is that you will try to find any excuse "not to lose any sleep over" anything, every time. It's not about one tree here, but about the forest. It's about what probably pulled out many, many players already, and I see the same issue on slack #roleplay, albeit not only caused by moderators but some people in general. I miss Ghost Hunter and the others, we never had any issues with them.

As for your alternatives, I don't think you need to veil it behind vagueness or PMs to carry your point. It's not the first time i'm invited to leave. It only reinforces my willingness not to because it would serve your charade.

Quote
It would be different if someone on the Mod Team was simply shitposting for its own sake and just generally being a bad forum user.  That hasn't been the case in any of these little drama events, that I've seen.

I beg to differ.

Quote
Lastly, it would be different if a particular Mod ALWAYS posted indelicately when moderating posts/threads, with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.  That is also a thing that has not been happening.

Half of the times, it has. Don't ever make me dig up all those threads again. I don't have the time for that, and I'm not in the habit of bookmarking everyone of them...

Quote
We are not going to up and change everything to suit one person who consistently complains about the same thing.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit two people.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit a vocal minority.  If we up and change everything, it will be because we have seen a negative element grow out of control and recognize that a change needs to be made in order for Backstage to remain a place where any EVE RPer, regardless of faction or clique, can come and expect to be able to have a civil discussion about EVE RP.

1) It's not a vocal minority, it's a silent big chunk of players.
2) Yes, the mod is a clique clinging to the little power they have left, but that I can understand will be subject to bias on both sides and disagreement so I'll not force the point, just so you know, i'm far from being the only one to think so.
3) Maybe it would be the time to notice that negative element. That's what I have been trying to tell you for all those years, but you remain blind, and I will prove it to you right now.


Incoming wall of text with as little redacted as possible, please note that some are very old and will maybe not tackle the direct problem per se, but refer to a more general, tied issue nonetheless:

Administrator Comment Snipped out due to violation of rule 7 - Silver

Past that point, I think most of them have left or are not lurking anymore. So maybe i'm beating a dead horse since the damage is already done.

Oh, of course, feel free to disagree with them all, it's your right. I am not taking everything at face value, but some make good points, and they still constitute opinions like any other. They are the silent part, and certainly not a vocal minority, to the contrary.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Sofia Roseburn on 05 Dec 2015, 06:02
(http://www.justpushstart.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/laughing-hyur.gif)
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Utari Onzo on 05 Dec 2015, 06:54
Regardless of how individuals feel about other posters, if they have a point let them make it. Feel free to counter, but let's no descend into name calling. Keep on topic, namely the discussion about moderation on this board, and not the validity of other poster's content/post counts unless it's related to the subject.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Iwan Terpalen on 05 Dec 2015, 07:16
:popcorn:

Quote
It's not the first time i'm invited to leave. It only reinforces my willingness not to because it would serve your charade.
I'm not really sure what your end game is, here, and it's maybe time to stop and think about what you want to achieve in the long run, rather than what you want to do right now.

I mean, where's this going to end? You're going to be the lone, brave hero shouting the mod team into submission until they give up and crown you King of Backstage?

(The crown's a dunce cap, anyway, and the scepter a well-used shit shovel.)
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Sofia Roseburn on 05 Dec 2015, 07:32
Regardless of how individuals feel about other posters, if they have a point let them make it. Feel free to counter, but let's no descend into name calling. Keep on topic, namely the discussion about moderation on this board, and not the validity of other poster's content/post counts unless it's related to the subject.

Considering how many times this has been "discussed" already I'd say that everyone's opinions on the matter are particularly clear. Further discussion seems rather pointless, really.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Utari Onzo on 05 Dec 2015, 07:36
Regardless of how individuals feel about other posters, if they have a point let them make it. Feel free to counter, but let's no descend into name calling. Keep on topic, namely the discussion about moderation on this board, and not the validity of other poster's content/post counts unless it's related to the subject.

Considering how many times this has been "discussed" already I'd say that everyone's opinions on the matter are particularly clear. Further discussion seems rather pointless, really.

Then don't reply?

Baiting out/personal attacks is going to achieve just as much as not posting in the discussion. Namely, nothing.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: The Rook on 05 Dec 2015, 08:38
How does discussing lore, roleplaying, characters and stories here gets negatively impacted by moderation here?
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Havohej on 05 Dec 2015, 11:30
Quote
Administrator Comment Quotes modded content - Silver
I honestly laughed IRL on this one.  How many times have I moderated Miz?  Lots.  And between Silver and MorLag Bal, I've been moderated several times myself.

Quote
Administrator Comment Quotes moderated content - Silver
Who?  Pour insults onto who?  Are we talking about that IGS personality that doesn't pvp in any way meaningful enough for me to interact with it?  Is it insulting to have one's lack of pvp pointed out?  Then don't pick battles with pvpers via IGS I guess.

Quote
Quotes moderated content - Silver
Same player/poster.  Multiple accounts.  We're quite aware of that.

Those three, like all of the other things in your post, Lyn, are irrelevant.  Literally all of them.  In almost every single case, it's an example of someone who didn't get their way on a given disagreement whining about it.  What's more, they are single quotes taken out of their original context and re-posted here in support of your logical fallacy (Appeal to Popularity).  Guess what, Lyn?  It's still a logical fallacy.

Now I'm extremely tempted to act on your posting of private correspondence here, which is quite in violation of Backstage's  Rule 7, because despite all the [Redacteds] you're not fooling anyone, it's crystal clear who most of those writers are.  But I'm going to relax.  I'm going to consider all the factors.  And I'm going to post a thread in the Team board.

What we have here is an individual poster who, time and time again, seeks to stir up as much drama as possible, manufacturing outrages where none exist and clamoring as loudly as their keyboard can clamor - not across the great, wide internet!  No! - but right here, on Backstage, and ingame in chat channels with whoever else has recently been "wronged" or "maltreated" (i.e.: Moderated) and has a bone to pick.  This IS the negative element.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 05 Dec 2015, 12:40
While I don't have much of a personal stake in this discussion, I feel like chiming in for several reasons.

The first is simply this: Yes, I personally feel that moderators can and should be refraining from insults and abusive language when they are dealing with someone infringing on forum rules - even if this someone does so in an obnoxious way. There definitely is room for improvement in that regard on this forums.

The second reason is how Lyn is dealt with here, especially by you, Havohej.

At first you claim that he's speaking only his own opinion, and that you won't change anything for one person alone. That's basically challenging him to give evidence that it's not just his opinion: Once he does so you are ready to charge him with violation of Backstage's  Rule 7.

Given that he prior to that mentioned private convos in which he had been told just that, I can't see what he should've done: Either you dismiss his point because you never saw those convos - or you call him out for a rule violation. One can only be sorry for Lyn that he fell for your bait, there.

The second thing is your misuse of the fallacy of 'appeal to popularity'. The Argumentum ad populum is only a fallacy if the belief of the people doesn't figure into the truth of the matter. Whether the earth is round or rather an oblate spheroid doesn't depend on popular opinion: To say the earth is a sphere because most people would answer this if asked for the earth's shape doesn't make it true. But this is about whether people are comfortable with how moderation is done on the these forums: And here the opinion of people plays quite the role - after all if they are of the opinion that they are not comfy with aspects of the moderation we have every reason to believe that they are not comfy with those aspects of moderation.

So, no, in this case it is not a logical fallacy, because the conditions for it to be a fallacy are not fulfilled.

Third, your claim that Lyn is "an individual poster who, time and time again, seeks to stir up as much drama as possible, manufacturing outrages where none exist and clamoring as loudly as their keyboard can clamor". Well, yes, Lyn might be someone who is uncomfortable to you, because he is, time and again, brining this same point up: That moderators are sometimes not held to the standards, by which everyone on this froums is supposed be measured. You even admitted as much. He has a valid point and just because you tire of being reminded of it and having to justify your behaviour there time and again, doesn't at all mean that Lyn is a poster that tried to stir up as much drama as possible.

Lyn has, basically, one specific point of critique - one that's as I already said not without reason - and he speaks up whenever there is an instance of it occuring. If you feel that he's trying to raise trouble all the time, than that's probably because you quite often "don't loose sleep over a Mod saying something 'indelicate' in the course of moderating".

If you still don't see reason to change how you handle those matters, I can live with that. It's not what I'd prefer as a solution, though. And you will have to live with people who don't like it. You can ban them or live with them challenging you to change that behaviour. Unless you make a rule that's aginst criticising the moderators, I'd suggest the latter.

I really hope that the cooler and even-handed heads in the moderation team prevail on these issues.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 05 Dec 2015, 13:27
:popcorn:

Quote
It's not the first time i'm invited to leave. It only reinforces my willingness not to because it would serve your charade.
I'm not really sure what your end game is, here, and it's maybe time to stop and think about what you want to achieve in the long run, rather than what you want to do right now.

I mean, where's this going to end? You're going to be the lone, brave hero shouting the mod team into submission until they give up and crown you King of Backstage?

(The crown's a dunce cap, anyway, and the scepter a well-used shit shovel.)

Uh.. okay.. I guess? Not sure to see what is your point? Is that an appeal to ridicule?

Ah well, at least we are progressing on some things though. A lot of admissions from the mod team in the past few days, which comfort my opinions in a lot of ways. Eventually, since it's solving slightly even if in a stupid direction... As Sofia said above: it has become pretty clear-cut.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 05 Dec 2015, 13:38
Quote
Administrator Comment Modded content - Silver

Well, I am certainly not going to play your bait game into guessing who is who. I can only say that you are pretty bad at guessing. Some of them, yes, some others, not really no. You are actually the one here trying to tie people with those and I find it a bit insane, considering that it's attributing quotes more or less blindly at random people. I would even say that the ones you picked up were really the less relevant and easiest ones. The low hanging fruit, if you will.

I consider those points relevant, like all the others, and was exactly expecting no less of you to start picking up on every one of those like you did. You can certainly dismiss some of the things that are told in there, like on that IP thing, and it might also indicate that some of them didn't get their way, indeed (although I deliberately pruned all the ones that were purely made out of that). The fact remains that most of them are indicative of many things: that, either most people are morons that don't get their way and throw tantrums, or that there is a problem. Pick the one that has the most appeal to you I guess.

You can also invoke rule 7, I know of it, and I was half expecting to see it catacombed when coming back. I don't mind. We kept being told that it's the opinion of a lone disgruntled wolf, or a vocal minority as a way to dismiss any further inquiry. If I show proof that it is not, you dismiss it anyway because you say what everyone says here - meaning people disagreeing with you or pointing embarrassing opinions - is bullshit. It was expected, and I am not surprised in any way or form.

However, I think we will have to disagree on who is the negative element here. Your main argument has always been that people are imagining things, making up claims, where as a moderator you might have been called to actually listen to what people tell you. But you only do that with your clique.

I don't mind either, I am used to it. It's the main leitmotiv of the mod team when they don't want to admit something. We get it served for basically everything.

NB: and uh no, this is not the same poster. RL photos tend to disagree with your statement, as I recall it.


NB : also Nico, I didn't fell for the bait, really. Trust me, I didn't. I know how the rules work. Some have even called me on rule lawyering. It is the only leverage I got against people that hold more power than me. It's sad but well.

I prefer rule violation that being called out a liar or outright dismissed.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Havohej on 05 Dec 2015, 19:14
While I don't have much of a personal stake in this discussion, I feel like chiming in for several reasons.

The first is simply this: Yes, I personally feel that moderators can and should be refraining from insults and abusive language when they are dealing with someone infringing on forum rules - even if this someone does so in an obnoxious way. There definitely is room for improvement in that regard on this forums.
No one has ever said otherwise.  What has been said is that, in the instances it has taken place, it has not been so egregious that action need be taken.  That has been the opinion of the team in every such instance that Lyn has "gone to forum war" about so far.  I, however, have had several of my own posts moderated with no reports having been generated whatsoever.  So one cannot even say that nobody on the Mod Team ever gets moderated.

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The second reason is how Lyn is dealt with here, especially by you, Havohej.
I'll be the spokesperson, sure.

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At first you claim that he's speaking only his own opinion, and that you won't change anything for one person alone. That's basically challenging him to give evidence that it's not just his opinion: Once he does so you are ready to charge him with violation of Backstage's  Rule 7.
It is a violation of Rule 7.  One that I refrained from moderating.  Never let it be said that Caesar is without mercy.

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Given that he prior to that mentioned private convos in which he had been told just that, I can't see what he should've done: Either you dismiss his point because you never saw those convos - or you call him out for a rule violation. One can only be sorry for Lyn that he fell for your bait, there.
His point, such as it is, is dismissed anyway.  Firstly, because it's a dead bloody horse that he's beaten a many several time and gotten a singular response each time.  Secondly, because what he should do is urge these poor put-upon souls to step forth about how they were oh-so-mistreated by Big Bad Mr. Havo and his Gang of Big Bad Moderation Thugs.  Which, judging by the examples of complaints that he put forth, not a one has a valid argument against any Moderation Action which took place on this Forum - which probably explains why the mob with torches and pitchforks has pretty much been a Mob of One.

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And here the opinion of people plays quite the role - after all if they are of the opinion that they are not comfy with aspects of the moderation we have every reason to believe that they are not comfy with those aspects of moderation.

So, no, in this case it is not a logical fallacy, because the conditions for it to be a fallacy are not fulfilled.
I'm well aware of how the fallacy works, actually, and you are incorrect.  Yes, the opinion of the people does play quite the role - it was the opinion of the people early on that settled out how things should or shouldn't be done here.  However, if you aim to suggest that this fractious community and its popular opinion can be represented by one self-appointed hero and that this Batman of Backstage's word should be taken as the Gospel Truth as regards All Things Community Opinion...  Well, I cannot complete that sentence without committing an abuse, now can I?

Further, we cannot see any such lack of comfort displayed in the use of the forum or lack thereof.  In the threads where the actual story and roleplay of EVE are being discussed, things are as they should be.  The decrease in traffic has in numerous other threads been attributed to the growing number of avenues for this discussion, most notably Slack.

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Third, your claim that Lyn is "an individual poster who, time and time again, seeks to stir up as much drama as possible, manufacturing outrages where none exist and clamoring as loudly as their keyboard can clamor". Well, yes, Lyn might be someone who is uncomfortable to you, because he is, time and again, brining this same point up: That moderators are sometimes not held to the standards, by which everyone on this froums is supposed be measured. You even admitted as much. He has a valid point and just because you tire of being reminded of it and having to justify your behaviour there time and again, doesn't at all mean that Lyn is a poster that tried to stir up as much drama as possible.
Here you have made a very, very big misunderstanding.  Allow me to clarify:

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That moderators are sometimes not held to the standards, by which everyone on this froums is supposed be measured. You even admitted as much.
I have never said, nor meant to imply, that.  What I have said is that sometimes Moderators aren't very nice.  I have said that in the instances these things have been reported, we have looked at the not nice thing that was said and decided whether or not it was actionable.  In most of these situations (including every one Lyn has made himself a nuisance over), we have decided that it was not actionable.  In the situations where it was actionable, the post(s) were Moderated.

What I have said, is that if a Moderator correctly handles a situation, especially one in which that same Mod has been under personal attack by the person being Moderated, and that Mod says something 'not nice', then I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  Silver said as much recently as well.  And given the leeway that we give some of the posters on this board at times, I daresay this IS the same standard we hold everyone else to.

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Lyn has, basically, one specific point of critique - one that's as I already said not without reason - and he speaks up whenever there is an instance of it occuring. If you feel that he's trying to raise trouble all the time, than that's probably because you quite often "don't loose sleep over a Mod saying something 'indelicate' in the course of moderating".
This is accurate.  It's a dead horse.  It's dead because it was beaten to death the first time Lyn brought it into the corral.  Lyn continues bringing the same dead horse into the same corral.  We're tired of beating it.  It isn't going to change.  At this point, it approaches intentionally disruptive behavior.

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If you still don't see reason to change how you handle those matters, I can live with that. It's not what I'd prefer as a solution, though. And you will have to live with people who don't like it. You can ban them or live with them challenging you to change that behaviour. Unless you make a rule that's aginst criticising the moderators, I'd suggest the latter.

I really hope that the cooler and even-handed heads in the moderation team prevail on these issues.
That's fine.  I would have no problem with different people, people who were new around here, raising the topic.  What becomes burdensome and annoying is the same person asking the same question as if there's going to be a different answer this time.  The answer has not been ambiguous.  It has been definitive.  It continues to be so.

Find something better to be outraged over.  People in the real world are dying, be outraged about that.  Don't be outraged over us not removing a Mod from the team because they said a bad fucking word.  We let you all cuss all the time, and I don't see anyone losing sleep over that, either.  And the idea of a profanity-free Backstage has already been discussed and rejected, so don't even start.

Get over it.  Return to posting about Eve and its RP, or whatever you all post about in the Off-Topic area.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Havohej on 05 Dec 2015, 19:51
Your main argument has always been that people are imagining things, making up claims, where as a moderator you might have been called to actually listen to what people tell you. But you only do that with your clique.
First, let me point out that I don't have a clique.  Nobody likes me.  Nobody really knows me.  I can think of three people on this entire forum who really know me, and none of them are on the Mod Team.  Difficult, then, not to say "Lyn's imagining things" or "making up claims" when you come out with that sort of rubbish.

Second, that has not been our main argument.  Our main argument has been, "we have looked at the incident and it is our opinion that no further action is warranted."  Your counterpoint has been, "but I want action!"  To which we've said, "No."  To which you reply, "Well, yes, because everyone else wants action too!"

To which we've said, as we are saying this time, "No."
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 05 Dec 2015, 21:37
I'm well aware of how the fallacy works, actually, and you are incorrect.  Yes, the opinion of the people does play quite the role - it was the opinion of the people early on that settled out how things should or shouldn't be done here.

Are you really going to say that whether people feel comfy or not with how moderation is handled is something that has been decided by "the people early on that settled out how things should or shouldn't be done here"? Really?

Because Lyn isn't saying that how moderation is handled is opposed to how the people decided how they should be handled when they started this forum. Nor is he claiming that it's opposed to how the moderation team decides to handle things. You are aware of that, yes?

Just to be sure: He claims that some aspects of moderation lead to some people being uncomfortable with parts of moderation and that therefore some people leave. And that some of those aspects are things that people are reasonably uncomfy with, rather then them just being butthurt for being moderated.

Whatever anyone originally has decided initially within the circle of founders or later on amongst the moderators has no impact on that, I hope you see that. To claim otherwise is fallacious - and I'm sure as a fan of those fancy fallacy names you'll be able to figure out which.

Honestly, I don't feel the necessity to answer your post point by point. Suffice to say: If you're right and Lyn is the only one taking issues here, then you'd have no reason to respond at all. Just let his threads die quietly. No reason to beat a dead horse - if you do so it's your fault, not Lyn's.

Ofc. that I as well say that I'm not quite comfy with this (while I don't see much reason to try to change it, not least because the moderators have demonstrated time and again unwillingness to change in those respects), is dismissed as well. Rather Lyn is mischaracterised as a "Mob of One". Lyn is certainly not a mob - but rather a critical voice - for one and silence doesn't equal approval for the other.

Ofcourse, we recently saw a person go and make explicit that one reason was that they were uncomfy with aspects of moderation. But yah, opinion is that "The decrease in traffic has in numerous other threads been attributed to the growing number of avenues for this discussion, most notably Slack." Well, first, I think that migration of people rarely has one cause only. Even so, if people prefer an alternative, then the question is still "Why?". It doesn't rule out that some people are doing so because of issues with moderation. Not to say that opinion doesn't equate truth and here we don't even have the opinions of those that left, but rather those that stayed. Just sayin' you're quite fast to call fallacy in one case and then put up another where the call might even be more justified.

To me it seems you're taking this as an attack on you personally, rather than as criticism. You really shouldn't. And if you do take it as criticism you should be able to deal with it much more relaxed than you do, apparently.

Also, yes, as I see it Lyn is the one left constantly raising his voice in those cases. There were more - some just fell more or less silent - as I did, though not due to approval of how it's handled - some left. I personally would see it as Lyn still believing in your ability to re-evaluate the decisions the moderation team made (Without that, you can in fact close the 'Moderation Discussion' subforum.) in this matter. Just because you made the decision once doesn't mean it should never be re-evaluated. And thus I don't see why someone shouldn't be able to call for a re-evaluation of it, especially if a case of it comes up. You're still free to answer: "You know our policy, we won't re-evaluate it.", if you feel no need to do so. No need for further answers from mods, then.

The idea that Lyn is "intentionally disruptive" (Of what, by the way? Isn't this sub-forum there for discussing moderation? I didn't see him being any more disruptive in threads outside this than the average poster.) is ludicrous to me. This doesn't even come up more than about once a year. I can't see Lyn's behaviour as disruptive, unless one thinks that having someone ask to re-evaluate ones 'rules' (and merely one of them, at that!) once a year is somehow "disruptive".

As Utari said: "Regardless of how individuals feel about other posters, if they have a point let them make it." -  If as you say Lyn's point has nothing to it, it hurts even less to let him make it once in a while.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Havohej on 05 Dec 2015, 21:43
I'm well aware of how the fallacy works, actually, and you are incorrect.  Yes, the opinion of the people does play quite the role - it was the opinion of the people early on that settled out how things should or shouldn't be done here.

Are you really going to say that whether people feel comfy or not with how moderation is handled is something that has been decided by "the people early on that settled out how things should or shouldn't be done here"? Really?
You've either missed the point or ignored it.  Assuming that the rest of the post follows on from the premise stated here, I'm not going to bother reading it as it does not address anything that I actually said.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 05 Dec 2015, 21:49
The premise you start from either doesn't adress Lyn's point (in which case it might be OK but besides the point) or it is fallacious. If it is beside the point, I indeed ignored it.

P.S.: If you feel that it's neither beside the point, nor fallacious, I'm sure you can explain why and and make me aware of how it is valid (and sound).
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Havohej on 05 Dec 2015, 21:50
Why would I respond to your post by addressing Lyn's point?

That doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 05 Dec 2015, 21:53
Because in my post I argue for the validity of Lyn's point. You claimed it's a fallacy: I argued it's not. You claimed that it's none the less a fallacy: I argued that your claim is either beside the point (Lyn's point) or fallacious.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Havohej on 05 Dec 2015, 22:07
Ah, I see.

My mistake, then.  I took your post as an independent thought, not an argument by proxy for Lyn.

At the end of the day, understand this:

Policy is to treat complaints and reports regarding members of the Mod Team on a case-by-case basis.  This is the same way we take complaints and reports about every other user.  This is not something that we feel needs to change.  Not this year, not last year, not next year.

If we review a complaint and decide that no action is warranted, then that is the decision of the Team and that's pretty much the end of it.  It only takes one Mod to decide to moderate a post.  Same as for anyone else.  The issuance of formal Warnings and Bans is much more a committee decision.  In obvious cases, warnings or bans can be issued without discussion, but these are extreme and rare circumstances.  As a rule, Warnings and Bans only occur after discussion has taken place and there is either consensus or at the very least agreement between Silver and I, the two active Administrators.

This is the standard by which everyone on Backstage is moderated, whether they are a Moderator themselves or not.

Understand further that the Team does not consist of just me and Morwen.  Active members:

Silver Night - Admin
Havohej - Admin
Morwen Lagann - Mod
Samira Kernher - Mod
Utari Onzo - Mod

Semi-active:
Jekaterine - Mod

Inactive:
Misan - Admin
Ghost Hunter - Mod
Ciarente - Mod

If a Moderator's action is so bad that action against that Moderator is actually warranted, up to and including their removal from the team, that will happen.  There is already precedent, in fact.  It has happened.

Finally, understand that it is up to you as a user of the Forum to either trust that we make these decisions fairly, or not.  In an earlier post, I pointed out a couple of things that we did not promise at the founding of this forum.  Another thing that we don't promise is that everyone will be pleased all the time.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 06 Dec 2015, 03:47
You know what actually. Whatever.

Nico already made all the argument for me.

Sick of your ad-hominem and veiled snipes about how i'm the disgruntled kid and batman of the forum and such nonsenses. Well deserved for what I implied for your clique? I know you are not in one. That's why you get moderated. Everyone expect you to considering how you spend your time violating half of the rules of the forum, and do not moderate with the consensus of everyone. You are a lose cannon, and it's a given.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Norrin Ellis on 06 Dec 2015, 04:35
Finally, understand that it is up to you as a user of the Forum to either trust that we make these decisions fairly, or not.  In an earlier post, I pointed out a couple of things that we did not promise at the founding of this forum.  Another thing that we don't promise is that everyone will be pleased all the time.

I was promised cake.

Still holding my breath on that.  Still keeping the faith.
Title: Re: Break a leg.
Post by: Utari Onzo on 06 Dec 2015, 08:26
I think this has run its course. The major points about moderator's use of language and what to do if you don't agree with a particular moderation have been addressed.

I'll leave quotes here of Silver and Havo:
At the end of the day, understand this:

Policy is to treat complaints and reports regarding members of the Mod Team on a case-by-case basis.  This is the same way we take complaints and reports about every other user.  This is not something that we feel needs to change.  Not this year, not last year, not next year.

If we review a complaint and decide that no action is warranted, then that is the decision of the Team and that's pretty much the end of it.  It only takes one Mod to decide to moderate a post.  Same as for anyone else.  The issuance of formal Warnings and Bans is much more a committee decision.  In obvious cases, warnings or bans can be issued without discussion, but these are extreme and rare circumstances.  As a rule, Warnings and Bans only occur after discussion has taken place and there is either consensus or at the very least agreement between Silver and I, the two active Administrators.

This is the standard by which everyone on Backstage is moderated, whether they are a Moderator themselves or not.

Understand further that the Team does not consist of just me and Morwen.  Active members:

Silver Night - Admin
Havohej - Admin
Morwen Lagann - Mod
Samira Kernher - Mod
Utari Onzo - Mod

Semi-active:
Jekaterine - Mod

Inactive:
Misan - Admin
Ghost Hunter - Mod
Ciarente - Mod

If a Moderator's action is so bad that action against that Moderator is actually warranted, up to and including their removal from the team, that will happen.  There is already precedent, in fact.  It has happened.

Finally, understand that it is up to you as a user of the Forum to either trust that we make these decisions fairly, or not.  In an earlier post, I pointed out a couple of things that we did not promise at the founding of this forum.  Another thing that we don't promise is that everyone will be pleased all the time.

I've had the luxury of working like 80 hours a week the last few weeks (I actually had a 3 day period where my Eve subscription lapsed, which hasn't happened since the Bush presidency) and so I think I'm coming into this with fairly fresh, if slightly bloodshot, eyes. I apologize for the breach in etiquette in responding in a locked thread where others can't then respond in kind, but as far as I can tell - indelicate language aside - this was all handled in the correct way, and the explanations seem consistent with the forum rules. I don't have an issue with locking a mod discussion thread after there isn't more to be said, and of course locking a repost of a locked thread is in the rules as well.

Moderator Comment Once again, if you feel a Moderator has broken a rule or overstepped the mark, do the same as you do for other users. Make reports, send PMs and the usual fare. I know some Moderators are happy to hash this discussion out, but right now this is going downhill fast. An Admin or Mod might decide to unlock this later so we can have another go, but till then go Christmas shopping or something. Thread Locked.