Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Skyweir Kinnison on 26 Nov 2015, 04:17
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As conceived, Skyweir has a fairly abrasive view of the current Tribal Republic (some of which is explained in my other post on the Mannar émigrés. As he has started his political career, he has recognised the need to be better informed as not only does much of his constituency comprise Minmatar immigrants (who themselves colour some of his views, as expatriates often do) but also - if he might at some point aspire to the Senate - he needs a more cosmopolitan and inclusive perspective. He was also brought up short by those better informed than he in the IGS recently, and undertook to educate himself.
To that end, I wonder if anyone would be willing to engage in a discussion on the modern Republic - her institutions, economy and living conditions? In the framework of a low-level political fact-finding mission, where Skyweir and several other deputies of the Elose Assembly were visiting some regions of the Republic to better understand its people and future. The context is not only Skyweir's development, but the relationship between the Federation and the Republic, specifically the nature of aid and treaty expectations.
There's os very little in the PF (at least that I can find) that describes the current Tribal Republic and what must be its successes and failures. Everything seems stuck at the transition between Midular and the Sanmatar - and having read the contributions of the influential and passionate Matari players here, it seems that there would be fertile ground for doing more world-building than CCP seem to wish to do.
If no-one's interested, I understand and will do the research and development from what i can find. But it would be cool to have experienced Matari players guide me and ensure i didn't make stupid mistakes. :)
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Nothing but slums and violence and technology is entirely based on whacking sticks with sticks and seeing what sticks together. Well, according to... well, anyone I've ever roleplayed with on the subject, inside and outside the faction. For some reason people tend to go bloody medieval in their portrayal of Matari society, both in respects to living situations and cultural and societal norms.
"Tribal" apparently translates to loincloths and dancing around fires while chanting gibberish.
I'm certainly interested in talking about the subject, preferably in a forum environment like this as it'll likely require some long-form responses and clarifications. It'd probably be quite a bit easier if we narrowed down to far more specific topics though, as "The Tribal Republic" and "institutions, economy and living conditions" span some fairly gargantuan fields, and would vary quite a bit from location to location and social status, etc etc. Remember, just here on Earth it's kind of hard to sum up any single nation in that regard without having huge variety within it, and we're talking a humongous interstellar entity here.
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The core worlds of the Republic, outside of Matar itself, have a lot of infrastructure, equal to almost any developed world in all of New Eden. On these worlds, cities may not be as stylised as Gallente, as ornate as Amarr, or as efficient as Caldari cities, but they are functional and liveable in for any citizen of New Eden.
Matar itself, has some social problems, being the centre of relocation efforts. Any refugees, escaped slaves, returning descendants of Minmatar living elsewhere, all of them tend to arrive on Matar first, and not all of them can then afford to go elsewhere. Large areas of Matar have significant historical or cultural importance, and development is restricted. There are also some groups who insist on a lower-technological lifestyle, as a form of semi-historical re-enactment of their ancestors lives, prior to the Day of Darkness, though the historical accuracy of some of their chosen lifestyles is questionable. This all causes friction with other agencies, and the task of removing illegal migrant camps is a constant endeavour.
The large transient population is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the authorities have their hands full trying to find work, housing, food, and other services for the population.
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Sounds like a developing nation like India. Lots of ability/infrastructure and investment in the "rich" areas, with areas of serious poverty outside of those bubbles. Would this be at least a half way comparison?
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I don't know. Maybe. Or maybe comparisons to housing schemes in some of the large UK cities may be useful in envisioning things.
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I am not sure. The Republic has always truck me as probably the most social of all, despite what the Federation seems to think of itself. May not present the wondrous Alpha cities of the Federation, but I am pretty sure that's probably the land where people care the most about each other. Probably the faction where social inequalities are the lowest.
Of course, i'm doing a small leap of faith here. Speculative.
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I doubt there's a lack of social inequalities, but the separating lines would probably go along clan lines rather than other social structures. Inherently about family structures and responsibilities, you'd probably also see less of the insane disparity you see in the western "I am the 1%, I am the 99%" kind of thing as the big shots of the Tribes would likely view their clans 'lessers' as more of a responsibility than your average wealthy CEO/politician/whatever. Wealth, power and clout would likely be understood to be borne from the clan's support and repaid in kind.
Of course, some clans would be far more prosperous and powerful than others, and working to ensure that it stays that way so there'd be plenty of social inequality, but on different scales than in your average western society. The ones coming off worse than most would be the black sheep of a clan, the clanless, and immigrants that for some reason can't find a way into a clan. There'd be much less of a social security net, as they'd be more clan/tribe specific than generalized across the Republic and even if banding together (or forced together, like many immigrants tend to be by necessity) doesn't really help all that much when there's not much to go around to begin with.
I suspect the massive weaponized "charity" of dumping a gargantuan fuckton of slaves on the Republic has forced some reform in that regard, though. Being rather understanding of social responsibility due to the family structures of clans and tribes, there's bound to have been pushes towards more generalized social uplifting programs and welfare to try and solve this problem but it's quite likely that it has been slow going due to both a general unwillingness to adapt away from culturally traditional (and thus very highly valued) ways and the generally lower initial assets to begin with.
Now, do remember that there's likely to be humongous differences between different regions of the Republic both in terms of culture, traditions and assets without even taking the differences between tribes into account, so it's very likely you'd see huge differences in how much these things are weighed up against each other in different places. Some places would lower their own living standards significantly in order to raise the lowest living standards equally significantly, because it's simply who and how they are while others would culturally consider it flat out morally and ethically wrong to turn so much attention and assets towards the most unfortunate while there's a war to be fought and their own family and kin to help.
The differences in how these things would be handled and how their society looks as a result would differ between different regions on the very same planets, not to mention in different systems or constellations.
Funnily enough, it's actually easier to make faction wide generalizations on the Gallente's "culturally diverse" nation than it is on the somewhat more rigid culture of the Tribes or even State.
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The majority of the cities in the Pator system are probably brand spanking new as they would have had to have been rebuilt almost entirely from scratch after the rebellion and reverse-diaspora after the end of the slave period of Matari history. See German cities, for examples.
I agree with Miz that poverty is probably best measured between clans rather than individuals, in traditional Matari society at least. I also think the nature of Matari poverty needs to be examined as it may manifest differently than we think, based on Western expectations.
I imagine poverty in Matari terms to be a dearth of real natural resources like wood, stone, fur and metal. I would think that the acme of wealth on Matari is either imported high-tech or else traditional hand-crafted items, clothes, houses and furniture. I would think that poverty in Matari terms probably looks like poorly cared for and mass-produced items of cheap design and materials like bio-plastics, space-mined ores and similar. I would think that these items would represent the baseline subsistence level of Matari society as produced in clan-owned factories and doled out through clan-managed distribution centers.
Meanwhile, wealthy clans would be those who have sufficient resources that they have been able to rebuild traditional herds, agriculturally rich croplands, planet-based ore mines (possibly manned by Federation drone miners, even) stands of natural trees and so forth.
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Very good points that I haven't considered much. I'd have to think a bit more on the nature of poverty in the Republic/Tribes to really make any contribution there, but the way you put it makes sense on first glance.
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I like to advise looking at how the modern Mongols live to understand a bit about the anachronism you might find in a Minmatar-settled world.
In modern Mongolia, you have these nomadic families that lived the same way their ancestors did, going from one grazing pasture to another to feed their herds. The difference is that instead of horses, they use motorcycles and sometimes even aircraft for scouting work. And their mobile settlements have heating and satellite coverage.
Then you have the Mongols who do not live the nomadic lifestyle migrating to the cities to settle permanently, opening shops and such, but they still help their still nomadic families out with information and trade.
Might want to use that example and apply that with the various tribes and their own unique way of life in the Minmatar Republic. For example, Sebiestor clans who still live in the cold frozen mountains and tundras hunting food with slugthrowers, roaming around on motorised vehicles, fishing on trawlers and growing crops in carefully regulated greenhouses, and Vherokhior clans that still travel and settle around major trade routes on motorised vehicles and has escorts in essentially APCs and gunships and such.
Also want to note that Minmatar cities are probably going to have a very barebones look. Remember that when the Republic was conceived, there was a need to develop rapidly to catch up with all those centuries the Minmatar spent in slavery, so expect to find alot of prefabs, oil-rig-like structures and the like, especially so outside the core worlds. Probably expect the same thing in culturally significant settlements, except you got all these modern structures erected around the more elaborate and ornate ancient structures and such. In the core worlds, such buildings are probably reinforced, made prettier, renovated, upgraded, but expect to still see signs of their prefab, very barebones roots in the structure frame and such.
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I would have to say that in considering the Republic it is probably best to try and separate the roleplayers from the actual lore on the Minmatar and Republic.
This is for the simple reason that there isn't a changing attitude in Minmatar RP, there is only a singular attitude. It is an attitude based on the propaganda of persecution and victimhood, and what only changes is who is currently in vogue to blame as an oppressor:
It's either the Amarr Empire because of slavery and religion
It's either the Gallente Federation because they're destroying the culture
It's either the Caldari State because they're fascist capitalists exploiters
It's either the Minmatar Republic itself because of democracy, Midular is an appeaser, and no one cares about refugees
So that's the thing, when the players of Minmatar seem to love nothing more than to be the never ending victims of persecution, discrimination, and oppression in order usually to win propaganda points no one is even counting through anecdotal evidence then yes, it will always create a strong misimpression of weakness. Because logically, to be the victim of anything you cannot be in a position of strength.
When Minmatar roleplayers themselves seem to think the only thing Minmatar can accomplish is to sell fish and clean toilets in the Federation, then it will always be difficult to see the Republic as reflected in the lore. A culture and society than managed to resist over a millenium of slavery and subjugation to maintain their identity; are growing a strong domestic economy by leveraging their advantage in population base to develop infrastructure and create a high-tech industrial and manufacturing base with high degrees of innovation that is fostering foreign investment; and who are returning to a unified tribal polity that existed prior to the Amarrian invasions.
It becomes difficult to engage with that Republic and those Minmatar when you feel you have to wade through a quagmire of personal persecution stories filled with discrimination, ghettoes, and Amarrian masters who seemed to have nothing better to do than whip them non-stop.
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Didn't help at all that EVE Source focuses so much on the slavery facet too.
At least the latter chronicles for Minmatar deals with politics and science and technology on the Minmatar side instead of all the darn slaves bugbear.
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Yeah, pretty much.
You don't become a major interstellar power because you're some kind of failed state living on IMF handouts, but that portrayal seems to come from players and less so the actual lore.
Playing to being the underdog is cool and all, but I do think it can be a bit like shooting yourself in the foot when it gets overplayed.
Because when that becomes a prevalent narrative I feel it really takes the focus away from what the Minmatar and Republic have actually managed to accomplish.
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I do want to point out that the players coming down on factions is a thing that happens to all four. Eve is a very confrontational and conflict based game in that regard, and often pretty much any interaction in public will almost immediately become "OH YEAH?! WELL EXILES AND SLUMS SO THERE!".
Most Matari RPers... well, once upon a ye olde time at any rate. The current crop I can't speak for... was actually quite focused on the rebuilding and extolling the virtues of the society. It is entirely possible to do that while still being heavily anti-slavery and I think I proved that with the Neutral Grounds. Of course, having less time in Eve apparently made that die off.
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I think for me it sometimes feels like the themes of colonialism and imperialism underlying the Minmatar lead many to frame it in the image of some kind of barely developed thirld world failed state instead of say, China, which historically was just as much a target of colonialism and imperialism but which is now becoming a strong economic and military power.
On that point you even have things like the Minmatar traditionally being the source of trade unionism and socialist politics in the Federation to have a discussion on topics such as socialist ideology and Minmatar Tribes/clans potentially having parallels since both focus on communal values and collective effort.
Which might lead to discussion of Minmatar clan style kibbutz or potentially how the Minmatar have adopted a Tribal-Socialist kind of corporatism/State capitalist/Ordoliberal style of economics where Tribes and clans are the major stakeholders in corporations and that has been a source of growth and expansion in the Republic economy?
What if the sources of tension with the Federation isn't because Minmatar are all living in slums and being discriminated against while being victims of, "Cultural imperialism". Maybe it's because the Minmatar are becoming successful while not actually adopting Gallente style liberal market economics that is fuelling undercurrents of resentment. That Minmatar in the Federation are beginning to spread their cultural values and political/economic ideologies into the Federation and changing it from within -- not the other way around.
And frankly I think the Minmatar suffer from an issue similar to the Caldari in how roleplayers externalize the Empire and the Federation as their, "Great Enemy". It's essentially handing over the initiative to those same enemies, because they will never be destroyed - ever - mechanics wise. It's like trolling yourself in a sense, because you can expend as much effort as you want calling them evil oppressors but they can just do the equivalent of, "Why so mad?" And carry on, while you've essentially acknowledged them as a stronger oppressor and yourself as the weaker victim in framing the power dynamics.
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The Minmatar tribes draw a lot of tropes from third world cultures seen today, mainly Africa, but also various other native cultures that today got more or less embroiled in the current globalization climate. It is only natural that people start first to take it as face value, and will try to picture african tribes, maori tribes, amerindians or everything with a strong either third world slum aspect, or either a strong alter-globalization with a hint of new-age/hippie sugarcoat about drum circles and native cultural fads.
The fact that especially early PF pictured the Minmatar with at least some of those tropes, like they don't tend to wear much clothes compared to everyone else (cf old chronicle illustrations about tattoos, or the Ray of Matar chronicle), especially when involved in their religious or traditional rituals, as well as simply showing their tattoos.. Well, it also doesn't help in that regard.
The Minmatar are not so easy to play since like for the Amarr, you have to conciliate a very alien culture to ours with strong native/medieval undertones that are easy to make, with a modern futuristic setting. I often see the Minmatar a bit like what you can see in the runner underworld of shadowrun, with their shamanistic rituals, scantily clad people full of tattoos and punk attitudes, but literally bathing into technology. Not that it has to be exactly like that, mind you, but I think it is a good example of blending native traditions with cyberpunk settings. And that is only for the plebs. Now then, it is even harder to do so with the upper classes and politicians. Probably a lot of inspiration to draw from indian traditional garbs and manners embroiled into modern politics.
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Thank you all for some very interesting insights. There's lots to think about, but the encouraging thing for me is that there is both some consistency in everyone's views, and also some strong indications of where the Minmatar may be developing.
I'm going to take Mizhara's advice and use this thread to examine Skyweir's journey of understanding. I'll draw down to focus on specific issues that he needs to face.
First off, because he is a politician and this is a political visit, I'd like to get a much better insight into how the Tribal Republic is working. He sees it rather as an oligarchy, with very limited accountability and thus, susceptible to the corruption we've all been told about from the Midular administration.
His visit is not at the top level - it's local/regional/state government level which interest him (though no doubt the national Tribal Council and Sanmatar have a powerful presence). He can see how accountability might function at the family/clan level, but what systems are in place/developing/aspired to on say a planetary or system scale? How do millions of people find their representatives? How are those representatives chosen - or replaced if found to be acting against the interests of their 'constituents'? Are any of these concepts even valid in a tribal society?
In a familial/tribal political structure, it seems that trust is paramount. How is trust measured and expected among the tribes? Does it differ widely in the 'grand tribe' milieu (for example, the Krusual are described as cunning and devious - how then could individual, low power citizens trust those above them in the power chain? Is it through contract - i.e. oaths, blood pledges, religious bonds, collateral? How do the other grand tribes even begin to deal with an apparently untrustworthy co-ruler, let alone how does the Tribal Council view their ability to follow through on cluster level diplomacy and treaty?)
Is the view at the system/clan level that the Republic needs to develop towards a cohesive, centralised and federal model (as it once was under the influence of the Gallente) or a confederacy of loosely aligned interests of what would be, essentially, independent tribal states? Could the latter hope to stand against outside pressures without the powerful sense of grievance that the slavery issue provides?
Is the increasingly stated view of players that the Caldari State is an attractive option as both a model and future partner (as opposed to the Federation) something that is mirrored among many Minmatar? Is a tribal republic/confederacy seen as very similar in conception to the allied but independent mega-corporations of the State - but is the very much more individualistic, freedom-loving Matari character unsuited to such an arrangement?
I know, that's a lot of questions! Thank you for your thoughts.
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People's representatives are their family/clan leaders. There is no desire to have a federal, democratic model, there is a large degree of distrust for that system and statistics so far show a greater degree of support for the new tribal government than there ever was for the Midular government. The tribes want to be independent-but-allied tribal states.
At planetary and system scale, you're dealing with tribal level politics. Major family/clan elders act as the governors, along with whatever administrative officials have been appointed by those groups.
As far as trust goes, consider the krusual rep to be its rep outside the tribe. Members of the Krusual Tribe probably have a much different view. Actually, based on the lore I've seen, the Krusual Tribe seems to be the most unified of the bunch. Their internal self-focused isolationism is what protected them during the original war with the Amarr; they were basically the only tribe that was never really conquered.
The tribal society is a very family-centric one. It means when you have issues you go to your immediate family, and if that doesn't work, then you go to your family's family, and so on and so forth.
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The reason why the current crop of Minmatar RPers see the Caldari model as attractive has alot to do with the Caldari State being decentralised and divided along Megacorp lines.
There are some similarities between the Megacorp system and the Tribal system, at least on the surface. Just swap out the CEO with a Tribal Chief/Elder, the divisions with the various clans with their specialised contributions to the Tribe economy, politics and culture, and each member of the Tribe with the Megacorp citizen-employees.
Of course, go deeper and you will start seeing differences. For example, being a very family-oriented system, you are bound to see nepotism practised. For example, a more qualified member of the workforce might be passed over in favour of another slightly less or markedly less qualified member due to blood ties. Not to mention, the Republic will often times staff their organizations based on bloodlines, so you have things like station administrators and ship engineers usually Sebiestor, quartermasters usually Vherokhior, security staffed by Brutor, etc.
Can you imagine a station where the administrators are Ishukone, security is provided by Kaalakiota, Lai Dai handles the commerce, etc?
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Well, it's easy to find surface similarities between most things while omitting the 90% remaining differences. Like the caldari gritty meritocratic ideal versus the nepotistic and gerontocracy of the minmatar, which are fundamentally opposed. Or like the fact that most things in Minmatar society are a matter of emotions and raw feelings bound out of various rules of honour and pride and tribe, while in the Caldari society everything is cold, reserved, off standish, and calculated besides the similarities around respect for ancestors...
I mean, we can also draw parallels between the amarrian major Houses and the Tribes, and that would certainly not make them similar either.
The main thing that explains that weird caldari/minmatar willingness to get closer is mostly inherent to their non imperialistic, but nationalist mindset: the other one is the only one that doesn't really want to conquer them or change them, and both are underdogs compared to the two giants they fight against.
But other than that, nothing prevented the caldari to side with what was convenient for them (the Amarr) when it proved to be, and to ruthlessly exploit the plight of the Minmatar by buying juicy mining rights in the Ammatar border zone, directly fighting against minmatars there.
Most of the time, people forget that what the minmatar and the caldari take in isolationism and non imperialistic values, they also take it in a strong nationalist view that basically makes them care only for their well being, damned be all the others, which is something that cannot be said for the 2 imperialistic power houses.
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People tend to forget something that both societies have in common. Neither try to bullshit the other. They know they're enemies, for practical and pragmatic reasons and respect that. They deal with each other honestly and respect that. Neither have a reason to compromise their integrity when dealing with each other and can respect that. When you deal with someone you know will do their best to profit the most out of any interaction, and they know it'll be reciprocated, you can finally have honest and straight dealings with each other. No pretense of charity or giving ground "for good will" or whatever else. The motivations are clear and in the open.
That I feel is the main reason you see a lot of Caldari/Minmatar RPers lament the practical reality of New Eden and seeking ways to bridge that, because while they're largely antagonistic towards each other, it's an honest antagonism that engenders respect and understanding. When they're the only two factions in New Eden that actually doesn't have any reason to harm the other, unless it's in order to gain from it themselves, it becomes honest. Particularly when both are very much concerned with retaining their own culture and ways against both allies and enemies that try to undermine that.
No "Oh we're doing this because God. We're doing this because we're so nice. We're doing this to help. We're doing this because this and that." It's just "Yeah, not gonna lie, this is what's best for us. Want to see if we can work out a way that both benefit from it?".
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Right, the other reason was because of the Minmatar attitude. They are a no-nonsense race that believe in self-sufficiency and sticking with family and Tribe.
Hence why the respect the Caldari. The Caldari won't bullshit them.
I would point out that the Heir houses are less similar than the Megacorp system. For one, the Houses are less self-contained hierarchical societies with their own unique cultures and values, as compared to the Megacorps. Not to mention the Amarr Empire is considerably more centralised too (albeit with alot of internal politics, which is something that the Minmatar apparently loathed, if the description of the Republic in Source about how the Minmatar usually minimise bureaucracy whenever that's an option and how the Tribal Chiefs will directly appoint their executors for special purposes are accurate).
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I would actually argue that they are at least as diverse than the megas. They are said to be widely different in various matters, from economic, social, religious and political. Tash-Murkon, probably has few things in common with Ardishapur besides technology, and hierarchy to the throne.
As I said above, I could cite thousands of counter examples on why the tribes are totally opposed to the megacorp system, the same way they are to the Amarr houses. I can also cite similarities between all of them.
Trying to put them on equal footing, or making one close to another, is really confusing to me. Respectfully, I think that's wishful thinking.
Edit: maybe that also stems from myself wishfully thinking that factions remain diverse and very distinct...
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It's not that they are close to each other. It's that they can respect and understand each other's differences and potentially work -very- well together in spite of said differences exactly because they can understand and respect them. The honest approach over-all is remarkably powerful.
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This thread...
People's representatives are their family/clan leaders. There is no desire to have a federal, democratic model [...] The tribal society is a very family-centric one. It means when you have issues you go to your immediate family, and if that doesn't work, then you go to your family's family, and so on and so forth.
Please forgive my drunkenness. I would like to echo the above sentiment and agree with the general attitude of prior replies. For purposes of OP's visit, I would recommend Clan elders/chieftains or their seconds. This might be a good jumping-off point for establishing a relationship for cultivating trust for a Federation representative within Tribal society. There are myriad intra-tribal interactions that may be at play between clans, families, or individual rivals, which might factor into relationships with such a political figure.
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I think people in their haste to adopt apples and oranges thinking with the Caldari really do forget that the Caldari mindset really is along: "There exists no such thing as permanent allies, only permanent interests."
The Caldari will gladly throw their own under the bus if it is in their interests. My past Caldari character got directly sued by Intara Direct Action because she screwed over SuVee in addition to being an attempt to throw her under the bus due to her Provist involvement. The entire history of the State is the Megacorps either individually or in coalition trying to screw each other over in their own self-interests.
Trying to appeal to Caldari with some apples-to-oranges comparisons of similarities being parity is for the Caldari just PR spin to sell, not an appeal to self-interest. Just take Ishukone at Crielere, sure they were willing to perform the theatre of peace and normalizing relations with the Federation but in the end it was always about the technology being developed -- not the PR.
So that's the thing really. Caldari have and will do business with the Minmatar but it's always going to be on their terms, and what they get out of it. Sure, they might even play at some PR but if people think they're going to abandon their alliance with the Empire and the favourable deals they've managed to make in order to access the Imperial markets and economy in favour of the Republic just because, "Megacorps and Tribes are sort of similar," Then you have to be a bit naive or delusional.
The Caldari are willing to do business with anyone - and they do - but don't look at the Caldari with rose-tinted romanticism and believe they will do things because they, "Like you," Then don't forget Caldari honour means it's not dishonorable to screw over someone else in order to advantage your own group -- whether it's family, corporation, or State, because they always come first.
This reminds me of past RP with Minmatar as a Caldari and while they'd talk about how much they were similarly oppressed or how Megacorps and Tribes are supposed to be similar when the important question of, "Well what could you or the Tribes offer my organization, Kaalakiota, or the State," The best response was... Mikramurkan fish.
Okay fair enough, but I don't think lots of fish really cuts it for Caldari.
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Also, if you don't know about it already, we often forget that while there is a lack of minmatar lore on some points, there is one absolutely fundamental lore tidbit that was added at some point about tribal clans (families, tribes, etc) versus tribal circles (working circles).
It defines pretty much everything of the tribal society at a fundamental level. Playing minmatar without having read that is almost like shooting oneself in the foot, I feel...
Because well, it redefines everything as we could imagine it in the everyday routines of the minmatar, how their jobs and lifes are regimented not only on the tribal level as we know it, but also in their careers and jobs. It redefines everything in the public institutions as well, like how circles play an important part in the Republic Fleet, etc, and introduces something not so dissimilar to a caste system related to their place in the society through the work they do and the circles they are part of (which is a huge mess nobody can understand except the minmatar themselves).
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Also, if you don't know about it already, we often forget that while there is a lack of minmatar lore on some points, there is one absolutely fundamental lore tidbit that was added at some point about tribal clans (families, tribes, etc) versus tribal circles (working circles).
It defines pretty much everything of the tribal society at a fundamental level. Playing minmatar without having read that is almost like shooting oneself in the foot, I feel...
Because well, it redefines everything as we could imagine it in the everyday routines of the minmatar, how their jobs and lifes are regimented not only on the tribal level as we know it, but also in their careers and jobs. It redefines everything in the public institutions as well, like how circles play an important part in the Republic Fleet, etc, and introduces something not so dissimilar to a caste system related to their place in the society through the work they do and the circles they are part of (which is a huge mess nobody can understand except the minmatar themselves).
That's actually one of the major reasons I've always seen with the Caldari and the Minmatar relationship. The State is driven by Megacorps, and if there's one thing that corporations want when doing business it's stability. The Republic might have laws, but in the end in order to get anything done you have to know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy so to speak just because how intertwined and complex all the relationships between people are.
On the one hand it can probably make short term deals lucrative because you can exploit that structure with a bit of bribery and other inducements to get a deal/contract through. In the long term it looks like it can attract a lot of risk because in a society based strongly around informal customs and traditions that govern personal relationships, you never really know if interests will always remain the same.
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Also, if you don't know about it already, we often forget that while there is a lack of minmatar lore on some points, there is one absolutely fundamental lore tidbit that was added at some point about tribal clans (families, tribes, etc) versus tribal circles (working circles).
It defines pretty much everything of the tribal society at a fundamental level. Playing minmatar without having read that is almost like shooting oneself in the foot, I feel...
Because well, it redefines everything as we could imagine it in the everyday routines of the minmatar, how their jobs and lifes are regimented not only on the tribal level as we know it, but also in their careers and jobs. It redefines everything in the public institutions as well, like how circles play an important part in the Republic Fleet, etc, and introduces something not so dissimilar to a caste system related to their place in the society through the work they do and the circles they are part of (which is a huge mess nobody can understand except the minmatar themselves).
Right, the Circle. This one is unique to the Republic and the Minmatar as a whole, where different members of the Tribe can join together for a common goal and form a Circle. One example is the Circle mentioned in the Chronicle 'Yetamo', which is focused entirely on nanotechnology. Elmund considers corporations to be a form of Circle, which is why he won't join a corporation if he isn't sure if he can contribute anything meaningfully.
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The unique thing with circles is that they seem to be rather organic, chaotic moving entities, unlike rigid corps.
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The unique thing with circles is that they seem to be rather organic, chaotic moving entities, unlike rigid corps.
More structured than a club, less rigid than a corp.
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(http://i.imgur.com/zWJ3D5K.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/8tmK94M.png)
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I can pretty much describe my own issue with Minmatar RP by using a general analogy of left-right wing politics as regards power structures:
LEFT WING (MINMATAR)
* Power as defined by the Oppressor vs. Oppressed
* Heirarchies of power considered unjust or oppressive (In this case of ethnic identity politics vis-a-vis the Amarr especially)
RIGHT WING (AMARR)
* Power as defined by Civilization vs. Barbarism
* Heirarchies of power are seen as justified (In this case via religion)
What turns me off about Minmatar RP is that it is quite literally the Social Justice Warrior faction of Eve as portrayed by the continuous framing of everything they do in some kind of moral narrative about the oppression of their ethnic identity expecting everyone else to check their privilege so that the Republic can exist as some kind of "safe zone" for Minmatar.
I've got better things to do than read politically correct tumblr moral crusading copy-paste in a politically incorrect video game.
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Thanks everyone, for some really helpful and thought-provoking posts. I'm going to reflect on what has been said, and perhaps come back with a skeleton report upon which I can invite commentary.
Your efforts are much appreciated, thanks.
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Yeah, Veik, I'm going to require citations on that one. I can't for the life of me remember having seen anything of the sort.
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I don't see what's wrong with fighting for justice. What puts me off is arguing we shouldn't?
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Yeah, Veik, I'm going to require citations on that one. I can't for the life of me remember having seen anything of the sort.
It's called a personal opinion and observation based on my own assertions made on an internet spaceship forum.
Not intended as an academic dissertation referencing a body of work.
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Did you mean, the victimhood syndrome?
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Yeah, Veik, I'm going to require citations on that one. I can't for the life of me remember having seen anything of the sort.
It's called a personal opinion and observation based on my own assertions made on an internet spaceship forum.
Not intended as an academic dissertation referencing a body of work.
It's a rather extreme claim, so I think it's hardly out of bounds to ask for elaboration or examples.
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Gotta agree with Mizhara. I've never seen the SJW thing in the Minmatar faction. I've never seen anything along the lines of "Leave poor Republic alone!" It's "Let my people go!"
You seem to admit that it's just an opinion with nothing concrete to back it, though, so... whatever, I guess. I have some pretty funny ideas myself about Gallente faction that I know are left-field and unsubstantiated because I cba to read Gallente PF.
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I have actually seen the "leave us alone" countless times...
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I have actually seen the "leave us alone" countless times...
Then I invite you to point me to an example?
I could see it in the sense of the pro-Tribals not wanting Gallente interference in their system of governance, but beyond that I can't think of a single time the Republic in PF took that kind of stance. More often it's "We're mad and we have this fleet of Naglfars", is the impression I've gotten since Midular's rule ended.
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More often it's "We're mad and we had this fleet of Naglfars", is the impression I've gotten since Midular's rule ended.
Fixed that for you, in bold.
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Wait.. I think there is a misunderstanding, Veik and I were merely speaking about what we often see in Minmatar RP, not PF...The same way I see a lot of annoying tropes done ICly by the Amarr, or other factions...
Of course PF can be guilty of that too, but the victimhood syndrome of the Minmatar isn't one of them yeah...
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Wait.. I think there is a misunderstanding, Veik and I were merely speaking about what we often see in Minmatar RP, not PF...The same way I see a lot of annoying tropes done ICly by the Amarr, or other factions...
Of course PF can be guilty of that too, but the victimhood syndrome of the Minmatar isn't one of them yeah...
I think that might just be the error of those particular RPers. Maybe it's easier to play the perpetual victim then to try to play the gutsy up and coming New Nation as it deals with the scars of the past? Personally, I'd love to see more from the Matari bloc on the latter, as I'd like to think the Republic is actually a vibrant energetic place in the areas where money flows. It's slap dash maybe, everything with a sense of new, but I'm sure by god there's progress happening and it'd be fast.
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I used to get that sense from Electus Matari, as much as they were an IC frienemy (mostly enemy) for me back then. I understand Re-Awakened Technologies is working on a comeback, really hoping that gets off the ground successfully.
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Wait.. I think there is a misunderstanding, Veik and I were merely speaking about what we often see in Minmatar RP, not PF...The same way I see a lot of annoying tropes done ICly by the Amarr, or other factions...
Of course PF can be guilty of that too, but the victimhood syndrome of the Minmatar isn't one of them yeah...
I think that might just be the error of those particular RPers. Maybe it's easier to play the perpetual victim then to try to play the gutsy up and coming New Nation as it deals with the scars of the past? Personally, I'd love to see more from the Matari bloc on the latter, as I'd like to think the Republic is actually a vibrant energetic place in the areas where money flows. It's slap dash maybe, everything with a sense of new, but I'm sure by god there's progress happening and it'd be fast.
Internally that's been a thing for better part of a decade. It's not particularly easy to portray externally though, for several reasons. External portrayal will without fail mean interaction with hostile factions, some members of which are very much disposed towards the eradication of both the old and new identities of the Tribes, thus the focus moves from the internal advances and development to the point of contention. Public display of these internal things tend to suffocate quite quickly under that debate. Secondly, these days there's extremely little interest in such things. I have attempted several projects in this regard, both chat channels etc and cultural events/display but there's just no interest in it other than from a very few individuals.
And let's not forget that the point of contention is still a very valid and big thing in today's societies across New Eden. The majority of those with Minmatar blood are held in the Empire and it's just unavoidable that it's something a lot of people would be focused on, either solely or alongside their internal affairs.
This does not equate to victimhood, though. It is about everything from revenge to pride and more. It's about showing that the Tribes are not victims and can (and did) fight back. Hard enough to bloody the Empire's nose more than once, even.
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Completely on the ball on that end there Miz, in regards to fighing back. I guess from an ooc it's hard for me to go looking ic about the Republic when Utari is so firmly Empire vOv
Still, conflict drives RP.
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I think that might just be the error of those particular RPers. Maybe it's easier to play the perpetual victim then to try to play the gutsy up and coming New Nation as it deals with the scars of the past? Personally, I'd love to see more from the Matari bloc on the latter, as I'd like to think the Republic is actually a vibrant energetic place in the areas where money flows. It's slap dash maybe, everything with a sense of new, but I'm sure by god there's progress happening and it'd be fast.
This is rather what I was hoping to reflect in my development of Skyweir. His prejudices are very much of the past - caricatures, in part, but founded in much of what seems to be presented in the RP I've seen. But it's also clear from several players' responses that there is much more to the new and developing Republic that could be interesting to watch develop further. I thought using Skyweir to present a few of those new directions would be good for his development and maybe the wider impressions of the Republic.
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Utari had it right, Conflict drives RP for sure. This is both a good and a bad thing. My Corporation, doesn't have too much interest in the Amarr, but due to the way Faction Warfare works, we spend most of our time shooting the Amarr. I think that is fine, but, whenever I at least get into an RP venue, there is an effort to try and make this more about the Republic itself, and not our conflict with the Amarr.
I think Kinnison's backpedal, and then interest in looking at the Republic in a different light on IGS was wonderful, by the way, even if it can be difficult to find alot of the information there. I referenced in Eve Source that it mentioned that the Republic had a pretty low unemployment rate versus the poverty stricken image that is frequently portrayed.
To that end, KHUSH actually does alot of industrial things which we haven't talked much about IC (maybe we should?), and of course have worked with Caldari groups, and other Minmatar groups, in the spirit of mutual defense, cooperation, and isk. The idea is to improve the Republic, but we generally approach the Republic as not such a bad place in general. Be it the Economy, or safety from the Amarr, or Sansha, etc it makes sense, but not as white knights, but as people protecting their own (or in Val's case more her adoptive Clan), as I feel that more than anything the Matari seem to look after those close to them.