Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Norrin Ellis on 24 Nov 2015, 18:10
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...just like the cake.
Did anyone believe it? Did anyone believe the rationale for it? Can the messenger ever really be trusted to tell the truth?
What's real? What isn't? Who can truly know?
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wat
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Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
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I did. How could I have been so stupid?
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1593202305/cool-story-bro-500x499.jpg)
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obvious, the lack of a spoon was.
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reality is just an illusion
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I'm apparently missing out on something here, but this -is- the Eve discussion board, right?
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I'm apparently missing out on something here, but this -is- the Eve discussion board, right?
Definitely talking about EVE here. Intentionally being vague, though.
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The only reason I can think of for being this annoyingly vague is to try and circumvent the rules or something. Are you talking about Anyanka Derp not being banned after all?
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The only reason I can think of for being this annoyingly vague is to try and circumvent the rules or something. Are you talking about Anyanka Derp not being banned after all?
Derp isn't actually banned? Well, that puts a damper on the day.
...but no, this was something else. Seems EVE is full of dishonesty, I suppose.
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Well yeah. There's a reason this is me playing Eve:
(https://chasemagnett.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/transmetropolitan-31-intro-uncensored.jpg?w=520&h=473)
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The only reason I can think of for being this annoyingly vague is to try and circumvent the rules or something. Are you talking about Anyanka Derp not being banned after all?
Derp isn't actually banned? Well, that puts a damper on the day.
...but no, this was something else. Seems EVE is full of dishonesty, I suppose.
You might be wavering a bit far into the "is there even a point to this thread or any content in it?" zone in your attempt to be vague.
(The ban might be a lie in EVE, but it isn't here~~)
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So what are we being vague and weird about then?
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Too much reddit drama today to sift one particular lie. Going to throw out a random guess - Kickstarter drama?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3u7z0j/mittani_orders_commissioner_order_against_bat/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3u7z0j/mittani_orders_commissioner_order_against_bat/)
Possibly this dubiously related item.
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Naw, that stuff's been going on for days, and that particular thread is a little but too "Not sure if..." to be the one. Besides, it's not like you'd need to be vague about it here on Backstage.
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Pretty much. If it's related to the kickstarter drama I don't see it as being too likely it'll get out of hand with this particular community.
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On that topic, if someone doesn't make a Clever Girls Coalition versus the Band of Bookstarters/Mittens' Emporium I'll be sorely disappointed. It'd be a hilarious thing to watch from the sidelines.
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From those of us who consume reddit via imgur:
(http://i.imgur.com/nVh9ge6.gif)
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(http://orig10.deviantart.net/249b/f/2015/166/c/b/cb729d384384081e4cd22bc8a42a5e5b-d8x3mzx.jpg)
I swear, the propaganda posts write themselves.
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i talked to Norrin ingame, and it made me think about stuff and things in Eve.
Like:
Is it better to be optimistic and be constantly disappointed ?
Or is it better to be pessimistic and be constantly vindicated ?
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If those are the only two options, find something more fulfilling, says I.
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I'll repeat:
(https://chasemagnett.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/transmetropolitan-31-intro-uncensored.jpg?w=520&h=473)
I started out optimistic and the constant disappointment as every. single. person. I ever put my trust in abused it to the nth degree led me to perpetual pessimism and constant vindication. I have become a fucking Prophet of New Eden, every prediction I make coming true simply by me laying out the worst case scenario and watching it unfold without me even being involved in the matter at hand.
It's not even self-fulfilling prophecies, as it works just fine when applied to completely unrelated matters where I'm not even on the radar. It's Eve Online, where no one are worthy of trust because they will, inevitably and without even the slightest hesitation fuck you in any way they can. Occasionally even just because they can.
Now, I'll grant you that many times, this isn't an act of cruelty or malice. It can be incompetence or obliviousness, or it can simply be a necessity because of how Eve is structured so that success is only really possible if you do leverage the "go fuck someone over" means at your disposal. I have largely come to terms with this and don't really get affected by it very much. I'll still lend people isk, I'll lend them ships, I'll put myself in a position where they can screw me over, because it is simply how the game is played. It's necessary if you want to try and accomplish something.
I just don't get surprised anymore when it inevitably backfires, and being aware of it allows me to make two steps forwards for every kick in the teeth by "friends". They are the only two options, in the end, and I envy the people who manage to convince themselves otherwise. It must be freeing.
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On that topic, if someone doesn't make a Clever Girls Coalition versus the Band of Bookstarters/Mittens' Emporium I'll be sorely disappointed. It'd be a hilarious thing to watch from the sidelines.
If this doesn't happen, I will actively suggest to Mittens that we make it happen ourselves. Seriously, folks, how can you not?
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On that topic, if someone doesn't make a Clever Girls Coalition versus the Band of Bookstarters/Mittens' Emporium I'll be sorely disappointed. It'd be a hilarious thing to watch from the sidelines.
If this doesn't happen, I will actively suggest to Mittens that we make it happen ourselves. Seriously, folks, how can you not?
Nothing against Mittens but I do not fund Kickstarters on principle. For one, I'm not swimming in so much cash I can just fork out the money for someone's dream that may or may not materialise and get no dividends in return.
Also, I don't think the Kickstarter is going to succeed thanks to the overwhelming Grr Goons. I already did mention, IC on IGS, that the general bad press the Imperium kept getting (and helped created) is going to make things difficult for any venture that depends on the good-will of outside parties.
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It doesn't help that the initial goal was set way too high.
I've backed, but at this rate I don't see it going through.
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Eh, there's no sin in not backing a Kickstarter. I don't have a lot of spare cash myself, you know? And it was pretty obvious by about the 36-hr mark that it wasn't gonna happen. Mistakes, they were made, and marketing advice was listened to from people who were clearly not as wise in the ways of 'how do you market to our lovely community of vile monster?' (myself included ;) ) as they sought to portray themselves to be.
I've no idea what the backup plan is, if there is one, but I'm hoping it's going to be 'ok, we shut up about the damned kickstarter for the next two weeks, re-tool as a lower price point and tell Jeff to take 2 years if that's what he needs and he's still willing to do it'. There are other options, of course. So who knows?
And yeah, actually marketing something under the Imperium imprimatur is an uphill fight. This would almost make Gevlon insufferable, if he wasn't already. :)
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Personally I didn't back it for three reasons:
- Lack of spare money (combined with ridiculous price points, and literally retarded kickstarter tiers and rewards)
- Lack of interest in funding what seemed to me to be a novel-sized block of propaganda by the new and improved Band of Brothers.
- Lack of confidence that it would even remotely take the universe's lore into account.
From what I hear, the handful of sample excerpts that were written were so terrible that they made Tony G's worst writing seem amazing in comparison. And then the subsequent response by the Goons to the Kickstarter stalling at the start line, then lurching forward and tipping face-first into a pile of shit really only served to justify my decision not to fund it.
I quite like a number of Goons as individuals, but I struggle to see any good in what is clearly no longer the plucky underdog fighting the good fight, but a fat, bloated, drooling lardbag trying to wipe off its putrid sweat with money.
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The sample excerpts were first drafts and shouldn't at all be taken as indicative of what the final product might be.
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My issue isn't Goons, but the Goon leadership itself. It seems to have lost base with the wider community, and Arrendis is right that marketing something with such a heavy connection to that elite circle was always going to be a tough sell. Sion going out of his way to write the article the way he did probably didn't help. It seems he had good intentions of "don't be mean" but the way his article came out felt, on reading, really accusatory/entitled on so many levels, and will likely do more harm then good.
The most basic mistake was tying the project so closely to the TMC, when surely Alex should have known the negative reputation he practically thrives in could backfire. When one practically makes a business out of revelling in hate and negativity/propoganda, it's not a great idea to mix that in with a marketing campaign when you're asking bucks for product. Charity, ok maybe, but not for business.
The other mistake was not letting Jeff do enough talking to the community at large by himself. This is something he later did, as he listened in and talked with us on comms in a provi fleet. It'll be sad if the book doesn't make it at all, as the guy actually listened when several roleplayers, including myself, started talking lore and he started asking questions and wanting links to stuff. He seems really engaged with us, and it's a shame it felt like it took a while for things like this to happen
Finally, it really seems like there's plenty who don't care about Grr Goons, but still find the project unworthy/aren't interested. At the end of the day, some projects, no matter how well marketed, just don't succeed.
Personally, I didn't back and not because I don't believe the book will be good/is all propoganda, but rather because I don't like crowd funding. I'm not going to put real cash money into a project before a product is ready, with 0 return investment. I have ISA's, a pension plan and shares for that. If the book does come out, then it'll get my cash money, or it can offer some kind of financial incentive for me to invest. Outside of that, it's just a pre-order for something that doesn't exist yet, and that's not Jeff's, TMC's or the book's fault.
The sample excerpts were first drafts and shouldn't at all be taken as indicative of what the final product might be.
This. Also, as I stated before, the guy asked a metric tonne of lore questions in the fleet with Corebloodbrothers and myself and a few other lore geeks were super excited to provide info, which he seemed to genuinely appreciate.
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Yeah, there's several reasons I wouldn't back that if I had a gun to my head, and I've got cash to spend.
- The whole rebranding thing. If you're going to rewrite history, you might as well just make the whole thing pure fiction anyway.
- It being a rather obvious cash-in (which leaks have subsequently confirmed).
- I'll easily admit it, I'm not backing anything even remotely connected to goons/TMdC.
- Expansion on the above: The GSF has spent the better part of a decade cultivating a "Us vs Eve" image. No fun content, no shits given about the rest of New Eden, blueball or deathball, bury any criticism under giant heaps of strawmen or trolling, etc etc. GSF has been purely antagonistic throughout its entire existence, and while I wholly approve of that kind of attitude I very much dislike the means it has employed and why should anyone ever do anything to support any venture from that source given all of this history? That author tying his name to GSF/TMdC/Mittens may have been the most suicidal move I've ever seen business wise, relating to Eve.
- Yeah, no, I'm not paying Mittens a dime. He wants to cash in on Eve, it'll have to be his Emporium paying to his Sociopathic Highness, not me.
- The chances that it'd accurately reflect the events of that war is close to zero.
- The claims "it's for the good of Eve!" made me facepalm so hard. No, fucknuts, this is a book that existing players might have bought and read, not something anyone that wasn't already a player would give two shits about.
- It's been done, better and with helluvalot more reasonable goals. (http://evehistory.com/)
- The sample I read was something I could recreate by shitting on a tablet. If it's not representative of the final product, don't use it as a sample. I wouldn't market lovely cookies by handing out samples of salmonella infested raw cookie dough.
Honestly, another go at it won't work either, unless you make the goal low enough that it can be wholly funded by GSF members. The current outing has pretty much killed the last bit of good will remaining for the names involved, and pretty much anything tied to the GSF/Mittens/Emporium/TMdC names are pretty much going to be considered cash grabs or otherwise tainted anyway.
Yes, I certainly am biased against the goons because of my personal views on "e-honor", honesty even among enemies, etc etc so take my opinions as such.
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I almost backed it. But changed my mind when I read all the splurgs that came off as ego inflating propaganda (As most things the Mittani touch do). TMC is now making matters worse and ensuring the project dies.
If they didn't do it in a way where Goons were the forefront of "Loook we got a writer and CCP backing a book that involves us! Support it since its the only way EvE will survive!" it would have done much better.
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The sample excerpts were first drafts and shouldn't at all be taken as indicative of what the final product might be.
Well, like for any game, or any product, you usually tend to showcase it quite a bit, and in a good light, or no surprise if it doesn't find any appeal..
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Yeah, if the sample excerpts aren't to be taken as indicative of what the final product might be, what exactly are their purpose? They're used for marketing the product.
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Let's not kid ourselves, the bar set by the other eve tie-in novels was so low that this latest round of terrible preview excerpts shouldn't surprise anyone.
Aside from that, I usually think it a bad idea to reinforce certain behavior with piles of money.
The schadenfreude, so so strong watching this kickstarter not go anywhere and egos having to interact with reality.
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remember though, it's roleplayers that take the game too seriously.
not you know, normal people. They never take the game too seriously. Never.
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remember though, it's roleplayers that take the game too seriously.
not you know, normal people. They never take the game too seriously. Never.
But Eve is Serious Business.
So Serious you get Death Threats because you touched someone's Titan.
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The schadenfreude, so so strong watching this kickstarter not go anywhere and egos having to interact with reality.
Please, tell us about Star Citizen's release date and epic scope that won't ever be reached. >.>
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The schadenfreude, so so strong watching this kickstarter not go anywhere and egos having to interact with reality.
Please, tell us about Star Citizen's release date and epic scope that won't ever be reached. >.>
Star Citizen's gonna be the space sim version of Duke Nukem Forever.
Calling it.
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Wasn't talking about Star Citizen?
I don't think the goon kickstarter flaming out has anything to do with SC?
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It was me poking fun at your comment about schadenfreude.
A lot of us also got that feeling for the book of goons, but your praise of SC is similar to the talking-up the Big Goons in Charge did for theirs - and a bunch of us are also waiting with bated breath for the schadenfreude we'll get out of SC.
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Yeah, if the sample excerpts aren't to be taken as indicative of what the final product might be, what exactly are their purpose? They're used for marketing the product.
This is why I feel they should have shown a sample from his published works, as that would more accurately represent what a finalized product would look like.
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Yeah, if the sample excerpts aren't to be taken as indicative of what the final product might be, what exactly are their purpose? They're used for marketing the product.
This is why I feel they should have shown a sample from his published works, as that would more accurately represent what a finalized product would look like.
Would probably work out better, but I still say I could shit out better samples than those, and that tells me something about the author's quality as it is.
It was me poking fun at your comment about schadenfreude.
A lot of us also got that feeling for the book of goons, but your praise of SC is similar to the talking-up the Big Goons in Charge did for theirs - and a bunch of us are also waiting with bated breath for the schadenfreude we'll get out of SC.
SC isn't comparable, as SC's problem is opposite to the Band of Bookstarter's conundrum, and contrary to Mittens' issues SC's problems can actually be solved. It's a surprisingly common problem with anything that's going through an Early Access or Kickstarter development style, where the community gets involved at such an early stage both through funding and development.
You may start with a specific vision and plan, and budget goals, but when money starts rolling in and the crowd doing the funding gets to start making their own desires and hopes a part of things, it starts spiraling out of control until the vision encompasses the universe and the funding doesn't seem to let you get away with anything less. Sooner or later something falls short, be it hours in the day, technical know-how, funding, crowd patience or whatever else and there's disappointment to be had. SC development biting off more than they can chew is something that can actually be solved given the amount of funding and possibilities for staff expansion etc.
Mittens' Emporium doesn't really have that kind of option in this regard. They've spent the better part of a decade reveling in "We will ruin YOUR game!" and suddenly turns around and asks said rest of the game for 150k USD, getting "Uhhh... no?" as a reply. Leading to Sion's delightful article telling everyone they're shit and ruining the game for everyone because they won't support Mittens' cashing out.
Schadenfreude indeed, and I have to say I find the notion of a goon telling me I'm being mean to be so ironically delicious that I have to go masturbate furiously for a while. Brb.
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It was me poking fun at your comment about schadenfreude.
A lot of us also got that feeling for the book of goons, but your praise of SC is similar to the talking-up the Big Goons in Charge did for theirs - and a bunch of us are also waiting with bated breath for the schadenfreude we'll get out of SC.
Gotcha ;).
I know I'll be drowning in schadenfreude if SC flames out don't worry ;)
Still that 97mil tho, like 15k on the test server right now running missions and pew pewing and fps
Off topic though, I'm excited for the goon flameout mostly because they have built their whole thing out of being insufferable towards others and karma's a bitch ;)
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Pretty much. :lol:
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Well, at least SC past the initial crowdfunding goal and is now running at almost 100M, which is hardly the case for Mittens.
Aren't you getting your money back when the stretch goal isn't reached on kickstarter or something?
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You don't pay in the first place unless the goal is reached.
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I tune in occasionally and fine much humor each time:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3v131y/narrative_denied/
http://www.polygon.com/2015/12/2/9835738/eve-online-war-mittani-goberius-kickstarter
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So, a typical war day in Eve Online then? Shitposting, drama and feces-flinging.