Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Sep 2015, 16:16
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http://evenews24.com/2015/09/24/announcing-the-amarr-championships/
I really, really, really, really hope Khanid wins.
KHANID II
HAIL.
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I'm just hoping he doesn't throw another tantrum if he loses.
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I'm just hoping he doesn't throw another tantrum if he loses.
If you mean stealing 1/4 of the Navy and starting his own private parallel amarr empire ;).
He's the best PF character CCP ever come up with
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But good point, he would -never- agree to suicide. I suspect two possibilities
No more suicides for heirs in general,
Or khanid clones out to his 'heir'
He'd never suicide.
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Long live the Ardishapur Kingdom, if Khanid wins.
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#TeamYonis
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I've been trying to find a single heir to win where it'd be to the realistic benefit of the Empire and I can't find one. Every last one of them will either turn the Empire into the utter villain some of us consider it to be, to the point where others can't even argue against it or they'll make it so liberal it'll go against everything the Empire has been about.
That said, no matter who wins, I'm sure CCP will find a way to screw us over anyway even if our faction even exists by then.
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Long live the Ardishapur Kingdom, if Khanid wins.
Well they have to get to civil war somehow right? Maybe x heir wins and none of them suicide ;)
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Bar Merimeth, I am not sure to see how the Empire would turn into a mustache twirling villain... Yonis is probably the most proper Amarrian you could wish for, and Uriam... Well, it's hard to tell. He is supposed to be very smart and thoughtful... Not sure what happened in Solitude besides a CCP wtf.
As for the liberals, we already had Heideran and Doriam and they were ten times more liberal than Aritcio or Catiz... Though it is eventually hard to tell because both of those really are loose cannons and hardly the most stable heirs. Catiz can either go in both directions depending on her whims and interests and Aritcio has personality troubles...
Khanid, though, could turn the Empire into a Khanid Kingdom bis. That would certainly disfigure the Empire more than all the other ones combined.
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Hey, we all love how CCP just makes new PF by deus-ex-machina, no? Anyone ever wondered how exactly Khanid became elegible as Heir to the throne again?
I mean, yes, there's a Privy Council decree and TC said 'OK', too. But that's no real explanation: After all, one would think that all the other Heirs would be opposed to Khanid being eligible (one more person in the contest lowers your winning chances by statistics already, not even counting that Khanid has the advantage of being through the trials already once and having much more experience) and so would be the TC (with Khanid willfully ignoring sacred law and being a declared opponent to the TC).
So, how did this happen? Is there any internal consistency to the fiction, save for 'CCP wills it!'?
I didn't think that CCP would do it, much less in such a way where it simply plopped into existence and then was brushed over with an article that really explained nothing.
I guess I will stop involving myself in EVE RP/Storyline and rather concentrate on my Fading Suns Pen&Paper RPG group. -.-
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King Khanid:
refused to undertake his sworn religious duty as Heir
stole a substantial portion of the then Imperial Fleet
seceded from the Empire
actively fought against the Empire
Proclaimed himself above God and that religious law does not apply to him
And yet, he gets to contest the Imperial Throne ?
Given the above, what did he offer in return ? what could he possibly have offered to make up for the above ?
Mechanics wise, I find it difficult to believe that Shathol'Syn will be implemented.
Does Merimeth Sarum even have a portrait yet ? And for that matter, does Acassa Midular ?
The portrait generator has not worked for some time, and here we are contemplating an event that requires generation of new portraits ?
What future is there for faction-related RP, when important NPCs have blank faces ?
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Hey, we all love how CCP just makes new PF by deus-ex-machina, no? Anyone ever wondered how exactly Khanid became elegible as Heir to the throne again?
I mean, yes, there's a Privy Council decree and TC said 'OK', too. But that's no real explanation: After all, one would think that all the other Heirs would be opposed to Khanid being eligible (one more person in the contest lowers your winning chances by statistics already, not even counting that Khanid has the advantage of being through the trials already once and having much more experience) and so would be the TC (with Khanid willfully ignoring sacred law and being a declared opponent to the TC).
So, how did this happen? Is there any internal consistency to the fiction, save for 'CCP wills it!'?
I didn't think that CCP would do it, much less in such a way where it simply plopped into existence and then was brushed over with an article that really explained nothing.
I guess I will stop involving myself in EVE RP/Storyline and rather concentrate on my Fading Suns Pen&Paper RPG group. -.-
This quote has been in Khanid II's article on EVElopedia since 2012:
"Though Khanid II has the right to attend Privy Council meetings in person, he frequently sends a delegate in his stead. This is not an uncommon occurrence among the Heirs, but it has still drawn some criticism, as the seat has only been recently granted. Similarly, the exact rights granted by the seat remain murky, with observers unsure if it grants him and his family a claim to the throne in the event of need for a future succession trials."
So it's not entirely a deus ex machina, as it's been something hinted as a possibility for years.
Also, I would imagine most of the heirs except for Yonis would have been willing to allow Khanid to participate if he promised to eliminate Shathol'Syn if he became emperor. It's even possible that Shathol'Syn itself has been already eliminated, though this is something that hasn't been communicated publicly.
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#KhanidRoyaltymatterstoo
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So it's not entirely a deus ex machina, as it's been something hinted as a possibility for years.
That's still no explanation. It's still something happening without any (at least apparent) reason intrinsic to the story. I doubt we will ever get an explanation for it, too. Though I'm sure that CCP could give one ex post, if they'd really bother they'd have given reasons and explanations beforehand.
What was hinted at is the unclear situation - not the solution to the problem by 'poof the PC and TC say so!'.
It's still a rather unexpected (storywise, not so unexpected given CCP's wishes), sudden and abrupt resolution by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event to an otherwise seemingly unsolvable problem. So, in my book this is pretty much the picture-book definition of a 'deus-ex-machina'.
Also, I would imagine most of the heirs except for Yonis would have been willing to allow Khanid to participate if he promised to eliminate Shathol'Syn if he became emperor. It's even possible that Shathol'Syn itself has been already eliminated, though this is something that hasn't been communicated publicly.
It's not like they need Khanid to eleminate Shathol'Syn, though. If that was the barganing chip, they could just as well remove it themselves - even if Ardishapur was against it. It's part of the succession trials anayway and is thus in a way prior to the new Emperor being established.
So, that's not at all a good reason for any of the Heir's to allow Khanid in, in my book. Even less so if it already is eliminated.
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The main issue with CCP to my eyes seems to be that their GMs seem to have a fine storyline set up but often forget that they know all the intricacies of it while the players don't. I mean, stuff like Uriam storming in Solitude for example, might have a perfectly decent reason and explanation, but we the players, will probably never know because someone forgot that yes, we are not privy to that. Our characters may not, but as the audience of the story, it would be fine someday to eventually discover why, or else we end up in a succession of situations like Nico said, are a bit wtf.
Though of course, reading Falcon on slack, apparently, even themselves have no clue either most of the time...
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I don't want to claim that CCP's GM's never have a fine storyline prepared, which they follow. I also don't want to say they don't makes sense, if you're privy to what they know. My point is that they are really bad at telling those stories in a coherent way, that allows the audience to experience it as a continuous more or less smooth stream of events which are connected, rather than a bumpy road full of holes along. The latter also leads to an experience that feels more like being railroaded through those rather unconnected events, than being able to get involved in the story - because the latter would mean that you're able to anticipate some of what will happen in the future with some reliability from the story. As it stands it's more reliable to extrapolate what will happen next from looking at CCP corporate interests towards the story, rather than looking at what happened in the story. And that's a bad thing in my book.
Anyhow, given the frequency of how often such situations arise, I'm tending to think that CCP has no clue as to where the storyline is supposed to go or maybe more exactly how it is supposed to go there in a smooth line rather than in the way of the f(x)=1/x goes from the negative x region to the positive.
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There is also the fact that having spoken to Affinity as well, she claims that what we find dumb, a lot of people enjoy it. They have to cater to everyone, and that has been her mojo for a while now, which I can understand.
But yes, basically, that's what I said... Their story often makes little sense, or when it does over such flimsy plots due to half assed explanations, it feels rubbish.
Oh well, of course, maybe i'm only seeing the glass half empty though. I think there is a lot of decent material or I would have left since long...
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They did explicitly say on Hydrostatic Podcast that whether or not Khanid would be included was up in the air, and that if players had a strong opinion they should send in mails with arguments.
It's possible that it was determined through that.
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#KhanidRoyaltymatterstoo
No it doesn't.
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Well not everybody listens to hydrostatic podcast... I thought it was a fanmade podcast ?
In any case, I said a few times on #lore that even if Khanid is eligible, making him emperor would mean drastic changes on the gameplay itself, meaning suppressing the Khanid Kingdom as a separate entity (which could happen soon enough for the Mandate too if things continue going that way).
You don't become emperor of Amarr and get to keep your independent kingdom on the side, that makes absolutely zero sense.
So, the thing is, even with the problem of Khanid being eligible that is hardly justifiable without going into far stretched territory, the ingame consequences are probably not going to happen, and will introduce a real mismatch between the lore and the game. Which means widening the gap between the two, which really doesnt need it in the first place...
I said that but nobody cared anyway. The answer I got was "Khanid would be awesome". Besides the ambiant khanid fanboyism in the playerbase, I didn't get another answer...
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I think you're mistaking the traditional EVE player's dietary requirement of sodium supplements for "fanboyism."
A lot of us wanted to see him in the running not to see him win but for the schadenfreude of watching his presence annoy the hell out of the supporters of other Heirs. In and out of character.
I mean, for example, we all love Samira, but who can really say it isn't entertaining watching her character try not to lose her shit in public over Khanid's inclusion, especially after the very lovely interaction she had with the RKN rep a month or two ago?
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Ha ha.
Ha.
:|
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:cube:
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I think you're mistaking the traditional EVE player's dietary requirement of sodium supplements for "fanboyism."
A lot of us wanted to see him in the running not to see him win but for the schadenfreude of watching his presence annoy the hell out of the supporters of other Heirs. In and out of character.
I mean, for example, we all love Samira, but who can really say it isn't entertaining watching her character try not to lose her shit in public over Khanid's inclusion, especially after the very lovely interaction she had with the RKN rep a month or two ago?
Yes this.
Khanid absolutely offers the most entertainment and 'buyer's remorse' for the amarr RP loyalist community if he wins.
The sheer IC joy of Khanid 'coming home' and stepping on the Theology Council would be absolutely amazing.
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And completely nonsensical at all...
In any case, nobody answered to my concerns, that I think are perfectly valid... So yes, voicing one's concerns to CCP or official channels mostly works only if you are in the political correct majority.
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Tell me, does the hydrostatic podcast have a written transcript ?
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Anyone ever wondered how exactly Khanid became elegible as Heir to the throne again?
The rules don't apply in the same way to the rich and powerful. This was especially true of feudalism.
Maybe that's infuriating, but it's certainly not inexplicable.
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I will also add that Khanid becoming Emperor will be the greatest roleplaying (read: character building) opportunity for Amarr RPers, maybe ever.
OOC I'm rooting for it.
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I will also add that Khanid becoming Emperor will be the greatest roleplaying (read: character building) opportunity for Amarr RPers, maybe ever.
OOC I'm rooting for it.
Agree. I think the other heirs offer more 'business as usual', with minor flavor differences.
If you wanted to start a schism or civil war though, Khanid's your man.
Also lets be honest his constant Lazarus pit youth treatments are just the best, he's like 600 and still looks youthful, steady trolling the other heirs with his cloning.
Part of me wants him to win for the interesting fallout part of me doesn't want the CCP plot machine touching khanid or the kingdom with a ten foot pole for the main eve plot.
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Stop the fanboyism! :P
More seriously, yeah, it sure is going to bring a lot of RP interesting shenanigans.
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I'm hoping CCP will have the will to finish the purge of the terrible mary sue-esque characters.
Heth and Jamyl down, Khanid and Shakor to go.
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I'm hoping CCP will have the will to finish the purge of the terrible mary sue-esque characters.
Heth and Jamyl down, Khanid and Shakor to go.
Khanid and Shakor pre-date Heth and Jamyl (as characters) by quite a bit, I think different people worked on them.
Khanid came with what, bloodlines in 2006? Zombie Jamyl and Heth were 2008 :P
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I'm hoping CCP will have the will to finish the purge of the terrible mary sue-esque characters.
Heth and Jamyl down, Khanid and Shakor to go.
Khanid and Shakor pre-date Heth and Jamyl (as characters) by quite a bit, I think different people worked on them.
Khanid came with what, bloodlines in 2006? Zombie Jamyl and Heth were 2008 :P
And Shakor is already out of the picture, they quietly made the Sanmatar not have a vote in the tribal council, so the current Republic government has Shakor as nothing more than a figurehead, the power resting in the chiefs of the Tribes (who form the tribal council along with the Sanmatar) and the representatives in the Republic Parliament (of which all tribes get equal seats). The Prime Minister has observer privileges in the Tribal council.
So, Shakor went from someone with supreme power, to someone whose sole power, is to declare an emergency and act in the stead of the Tribal council, but they can with a simple majority revoke that state of emergency at any time and in doing so, remove him from the position of SanMatar unless they take a 3/4 majority vote to keep him in power.
So the TL;DR: is that Maleatu Shakor is already effectively removed from the story line in the way he was originally written.
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I have difficulty to believe in someone that got invested with supreme power, made his best to get rid of hiw old rival, and then suddenly giving up on all that power... Out of what ? Idealism ?
Okay... Why not, but I got to admit that it's not very... easy to find in all of RL History.
Ah, perhaps maybe... I certainly haven't heard of all the leaders of all times either...
I'm rather fine with where they are now with the Minmatar government structure in any case.
I also rather liked what Khanid brought to the lore back in time... It was not total heresy, it was not orthodoxy either, but at first it sure looked like it... Until political realities turned it into some kind of awkward far fetched heterodoxy making conservatives grit their teeth, with a state of cold war between the two...
It really was about how far was the empire willing to go towards heresies and most importantly here since it's all about politics, where the heirs and lords were willing to go to punish a rebellious lord.
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They tried pretty hard to punish him; he kicked their asses and they invaded the kingdom a few times since then. All beaten back. It's one of the lore reasons for the caldari partnership as the kingdom is relatively tiny and has to keep their fleets technologically advanced to keep up with the much, much larger imperial Navy.
I look at it as sort of a combination of trying to successfully invade Afghanistan (no one has ever pulled it off) mixed with a north/south Korea cold war for 300 years.
The kingdom could never, ever invade the empire, they be obliterated, but the have their tiny backwater region the empire just got tired of dealing with "fine keep it gaaaawd"
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Invasions all beaten back?
Out of curiosity, do you have any sources on that..?
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Will look.
IIRC there was a big invasion at the get go to take him out, and he made it not worth their while to press it, the new emperor had to consolidate his own power and it didn't go anywhere. I will have to find sources but I do recall it being mentioned they tried a few times since, and the 'cold war' had occasional flare ups on the border, raids on both sides etc for generations. Will look for source later. Khanid folks will say they beat them back every time, empire folks will say they had better things to do and couldn't committ fully.
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Yeah I seem to remember that an obvious invasion was planned at first all naturally, but since the new emperor had to consolidate his power, coupled with the fact that Khanid II also had a true deterrent with his stolen Imud Hubrau Iapetan titan... And I would indeed imagine that some skirmishes flared up...
But I don't remember any real invasion happening though...
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As far as I know there were no invasion attempts. Khanid holding half the Imperial Fleet was a sufficient deterrent.
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Open Warfare
The Empire's refusal to immediately engage the Khanid Kingdom in warfare allowed Khanid II plenty of opportunity to fortify his borders. Additionally, his forces gained valuable experience fighting against Dakos's rebellion. When the Amarr Empire finally gathered its fleets to attack the Kingdom, Khanid was already well-entrenched.
Additionally, Emperor Heideran, fearing possible internal dissent, suppressed the Order of St. Tetrimon and declared their leader, Lozera Riana, a heretic. Lozera was imprisoned in Dam-Torsad, while Tetrimon artifacts were seized and destroyed by Imperial authorities. Khanid II welcomed the Order to the Kingdom and benefited greatly from their presence, especially as the Order began to learn to defend itself from those who wished to destroy it.[5]
Full fledged war between the two sides lasted only a few years. It quickly became evident to the commanders of the Imperial Navy that the Khanid were too-well defended to simply overrun. They realized that the only pathway to victory would be a long, excruciating war of attrition that would end up wiping out the majority of the Khanid people, take a large portion of the Empire along with them, and potentially send the Empire spiraling into a second dark age.
Presented with this information, Emperor Heideran slowly reduced forces on the front over the years. He knew that Khanid was not interested in invading the Empire, but he also knew he could not simply walk away from the fight. Instead, gradually allowed the war to slip into a cold stalemate, with both sides warily watching each other across the borders with only a few incursions to maintain the illusion of a hot war.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Unchallenged_Era_of_the_Amarr_Empire#Khanid_Rebellion
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yea also from the wiki:
"Though the Empire's invasions of the Kingdom were turned back by his more tactically sound fleet, he realized the advantages of fighting defensively would prove disastrous if he attempted a direct invasion of the Empire."
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Anyone ever wondered how exactly Khanid became elegible as Heir to the throne again?
The rules don't apply in the same way to the rich and powerful. This was especially true of feudalism.
Maybe that's infuriating, but it's certainly not inexplicable.
While not the same rules apply to the rich and powerful apply as to the poor and destitute for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that they don't play by rules at all.
Neither did I state that Khanid's return is inexplicable: I rather stated that is is inexplicated, when - to present a consistent storyline, rather than story jumps and bumps - it shoule be explicated to some extent beyond 'PC and TC said so! *poof*' at least.
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has it been confirmed that all the Heir characters will be killed off, following resolution of the succession trials ?
a couple posts on the eve forums seem to suggest that it has.
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has it been confirmed that all the Heir characters will be killed off, following resolution of the succession trials ?
a couple posts on the eve forums seem to suggest that it has.
sources?
Not to be melodramatic but if khanid commits suicide without some secret plotz (tm) to clone jump or something that will be derpitude of the highest order.
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Maybe this time he might be the one that gets tricked? I mean, they are probably expecting him not to comply again too...
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Maybe this time he might be the one that gets tricked? I mean, they are probably expecting him not to comply again too...
Or maybe he has something up his sleeve that would guarantee a win?
Also, bwa ha ha.
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Maybe this time he might be the one that gets tricked? I mean, they are probably expecting him not to comply again too...
Or maybe he has something up his sleeve that would guarantee a win?
Also, bwa ha ha.
Considering the nature of the Succession Trials this time around I'm pretty sure that would involve something wildly against the rules that the players are bound by.
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Maybe this time he might be the one that gets tricked? I mean, they are probably expecting him not to comply again too...
Or maybe he has something up his sleeve that would guarantee a win?
Also, bwa ha ha.
Considering the nature of the Succession Trials this time around I'm pretty sure that would involve something wildly against the rules that the players are bound by.
There seems to be a disturbance! wait, it's King Khanid ! invading the arena ! This is unprecedented ! Good heavens, he's just smartbombed the competitors ! On both sides !
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Maybe this time he might be the one that gets tricked? I mean, they are probably expecting him not to comply again too...
Wait...now he's reshipping...is that a? No... HOW THE HELL DID HE GET A TITAN IN THERE??
:eek:
Or maybe he has something up his sleeve that would guarantee a win?
Also, bwa ha ha.
Considering the nature of the Succession Trials this time around I'm pretty sure that would involve something wildly against the rules that the players are bound by.
There seems to be a disturbance! wait, it's King Khanid ! invading the arena ! This is unprecedented ! Good heavens, he's just smartbombed the competitors ! On both sides !
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BB: ‘‘Good evening sports fans and welcome to the Succession Trials. For tonight’s contest. You join a capacity crowd, packed with members of every race from throughout the Empire, all howling like Sani-Sabik in anticipation of tonight’s match ups. Oh, and yes, there are some actual Sani... Well, kick-off is in about twenty minutes time, so we’ve just got time to recap on the rules of the trials before battle starts. Your match commentators for tonight are Jim Johnson and myself, Bob Bifford. Evening, Jim!’’
JJ: ‘‘Thank you, Bob! Well, good evening, and boy, are you folks in for a great night of top-class Emperor defining entertainment! But first of all, for those of you at home who are unfamiliar with the rules, here’s how the game is played.’’
‘‘As you know, the Succession Trials is an epic conflict between teams of heavily-armoured and quite insane capsuleer pilots. Players shoot, jam, or outsmart their opponents, attempting to ensure their patron becomes ruler over all of the Faithful. Of course, the other team must try and stop them, and recover glory for their own Heir. The team that achieve the most victories by the end of the match wins the Trial's, and their Heir is declared Emperor or Empress of all Amarr!"
JJ: " They most certainly are Bob..... but there have been some exceptions in the past. Oh and here they come now, the champions representing His Majesty King Khanid..... wait what's the Royal Navy doing here..... why are they shooting at the other Champions during the pre-trials parade?"
BB: "We're seeing stellar play here for King Khanid tonight Jim. This is exactly what the Trials are all about!"
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Neither did I state that Khanid's return is inexplicable: I rather stated that is is inexplicated, when - to present a consistent storyline, rather than story jumps and bumps - it shoule be explicated to some extent beyond 'PC and TC said so! *poof*' at least.
Putin annexed Crimea, illegally, armed separatists, illegally, and continues to exercise a veto in the Security Council (only one of five nations allowed this right). Now he's building bases in Syria, making illegal flyovers in Turkey, and protecting Assad. Unlike Iran or most of the countries on planet Earth, this country that has broken every international law of war continues to enjoy the right to store and use nuclear weapons.
I'm sure the parallels aren't lost on you. It would make almost no political sense for me to blindly criticize Russia for what it's done. Doing so fails to take into context the position that Russia is in, and its history.
I disagree that a story has to be predictable, or contain a modicum of continuity such that the progression has to make sense to you personally. Looking at what's happening in the real world, it makes plenty sense to me what's happened with Khanid. Consider him the Putin of our time, if you will.
I agree with what you're saying about CCP in general.. the patchwork plot, the random executions.. but on the matter of Khanid's acceptance to the Succession Trials I think we disagree.
Khanid is important enough that he can walk away from the Trials a second time, without the future Emperor or the TC so much as blinking. As the Khanid accepted the Amarr ways back in time, so now must the Amarr accept the Khanid for all their peculiarities and exceptions.
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To me the reasons behind Putin actions and decisions make a lot of sense too... Khanid himself and his own decisions and plots is very rational from his position.
What we are contesting is more the TC decision again to do all of that. It was barely explained back in 2005 and they do it again this year, and added Khanid to the Trials too, which makes apparently even less sense!
Well, I am pretty sure we can find explanations for everything, no matter how clunky or far fetched they can be, and I expect the ones at CCP writing this to have had a bit of thought about it (I hope?).
First, we never get to know those explanations, and they could be someday presented to us... It makes for a very poor storytelling when the audience doesn't understand anything most of the time, or when it starts breaking the suspension of disbelief (at least to me after all those unresolved "what the hell?" stuff). It is good to have a hefty dose of mystery, especially in Eve. It works especially well for everything we discover regularly in Anoikis... But for the TC and the Succession Trials, well yeah, I would love to be able to tell why the hell they did that, the same way I can say it for Putin... Even if it's not quite exact or accurate (i'm obviously not privy to what happens in his private cabinet...).
Then well, if he gets emperor, how do they intend to deal with all the game mechanisms that will become obsolete ? The Khanid faction is going to become totally obsolete since it is going to be fully integrated into the Empire, for one... And I really don't see them changing that to cater to the storyline. Which is gong to create an even wider gap between ingame and the lore. Which incidentally, contributes even further to break suspension of disbelief...
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1) Lyn is correct that it really doesn't make much plot sense, the TC would rather roll over and die than let Khanid back in their sight. Unless there was a clear TC plot to cap him.
2) this is the sort of 'wtf?' That a chronicle would really clear up.
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What we are contesting is more the TC decision again to do all of that. It was barely explained back in 2005 and they do it again this year, and added Khanid to the Trials too, which makes apparently even less sense!
Well, it appears CCP disagrees with you.
From: HOUSE KHANID INCLUSION ANNOUNCED AS IMPERIAL SUCCESSION COMMITTEE LAYS OUT RULES (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/house-khanid-inclusion-announced-as-imperial-succession-committee-lays-out-rules/)
The Imperial Succession Committee today announced the inclusion of House Khanid in the Championship Trials, in a development that will be shocking to some but perhaps not too surprising to keen observers of Amarr politics.
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The Court Chamberlain is believed to have assented on behalf of the Throne, a procedure that is reported to have been agreed to only after a conclave of the closed Privy Council attended by High Chaplain Kalefa Sufrin an-Kador of the Emperor Family.
From: Succession Trials Candidacy – House Khanid (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447989)
The Court Chamberlain, in his wisdom and regard for proper and right tradition, has set out the rules for the Trials of Succession and affirmed the right undoubted of His Majesty to lay his claim to the Imperial Throne before the judgement of God.
I think if you're going to say "it doesn't make sense" it would be useful if you could specify what exactly doesn't make sense. In my opinion, reasons have been provided to support the decision (as I've emphasized above), so it's incumbent on you to define what sort of reasoning is going to satisfy your objection.
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What's 2005 got to do with it? He wasn't included then.
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Khanid has nothing to do with 2005 (YC107).
The Trials made little sense in the sense that those too asked for capsuleers to champion and fight for the Succession, like today. In itself, it doesn't make much sense to let non loyalists, almost animals, to determine the next emperor...
At the same time, I try to explain it to myself with far fetched excuses like "well it's like betting on dogs fighting in a pit" or "letting the result play in the mysterious ways of God" or whatever. The fact remains that the TC never explained why that sudden choice back in the day, as far as I know, and still doesn't today. Not very glorifying for a people as proud as the Amarr, heh?
Whatever... I can find explanations if I really want to. I'm more concerned about the way it's handed to us, as usual. It doesn't feel genuine, it feels rushed and superficial. To quote Nico... "Neither did I state that Khanid's return is inexplicable: I rather stated that is is inexplicated, when - to present a consistent storyline, rather than story jumps and bumps - it should be explicated to some extent beyond 'PC and TC said so! *poof*' at least."
Also Sibs, I am really struggling to understand how what you quoted stand as "reasons", since in the very same article they specifically say "While imperial officials are remaining tight-lipped as to the reasoning", which reeks of lazy storytelling to me and may also hint at CCP not even able to come with a real reason themselves... Coupled with the line "in a development that will be shocking to some but perhaps not too surprising to keen observers of Amarr politics" which I read a huge OOC troll to those of us that dislike that specific excuse they served us..
Ah well, maybe it's the pessimistic inside me speaking here, who knows...
Edit: okay, it came a lot more bitter than intended... I actually think that even with its flaw, that storyarc is not bad like some others have been, we can indeed find explanations and reasons if we look into it enough, we can live with it and it sure will create a lot of content if Khanid gets in. It's more about the succession of all those... storytelling bum notes and gaping holes that tend to turn the whole story into a... nonsensical mess.
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What we are contesting is more the TC decision again to do all of that. It was barely explained back in 2005 and they do it again this year, and added Khanid to the Trials too, which makes apparently even less sense!
Well, it appears CCP disagrees with you.
From: HOUSE KHANID INCLUSION ANNOUNCED AS IMPERIAL SUCCESSION COMMITTEE LAYS OUT RULES (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/house-khanid-inclusion-announced-as-imperial-succession-committee-lays-out-rules/)
The Imperial Succession Committee today announced the inclusion of House Khanid in the Championship Trials, in a development that will be shocking to some but perhaps not too surprising to keen observers of Amarr politics.
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The Court Chamberlain is believed to have assented on behalf of the Throne, a procedure that is reported to have been agreed to only after a conclave of the closed Privy Council attended by High Chaplain Kalefa Sufrin an-Kador of the Emperor Family.
From: Succession Trials Candidacy – House Khanid (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447989)
The Court Chamberlain, in his wisdom and regard for proper and right tradition, has set out the rules for the Trials of Succession and affirmed the right undoubted of His Majesty to lay his claim to the Imperial Throne before the judgement of God.
I think if you're going to say "it doesn't make sense" it would be useful if you could specify what exactly doesn't make sense. In my opinion, reasons have been provided to support the decision (as I've emphasized above), so it's incumbent on you to define what sort of reasoning is going to satisfy your objection.
That just says ic: Khanid is in because.."reasons"
We are the nerdiest of the nerds and are among the only handful of dorks who would even care as to IC theology council rationales.
Remember the privy council hates Khanid, the other heirs can barely be in the same room. ONLY the direct authority of Jamyl as empress forced them to suffer the indignity of Khanid as lord counsellor.
With her dead, her authority pushing the TC and PC ends and likely support for Khanid.
Only tash murkon was a supporter, and even that didn't make much sense.
Now, there could be a thousand valid plots and palace intrigues as to why this new situation exists, but that would be something worth sharing as stories or chronicles or events, right?
Or maybe more likely they included khanid as they will definity use khanid T2 ships as tournament mandated round ships and maybe didn't bother to consult the lore jockeys for specific nerd plot support ahead of time?
Anyway hail khanid every other heirs suuucks hail hail khanid!!
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Our characters can gnash their teeth and wail all they like, but the Theology and Privy Councils, and the Imperial Succession Committee, all give precisely zero fucks about our characters' desire to know (or not) the reasons for their decision, and are under no circumstances obligated to explain themselves to any of them. (Similarly for players - CCP's not really obligated to tell us the behind-doors thought process of several entities that are normally entirely closed-lipped about things.)
That said, I think I remember Delegate Zero saying on Slack that some chronicles were coming soon, at least one about the SoCT and related to Mentor Raish. I don't remember what the other was about but it's entirely possible it's relating to this stuff. Don't quote me on it though.
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Eh... of course there is no obligation on CCP to do good storytelling instead of pulling a deus-ex-machina. That doesn't make it any better storytelling though.
Silas is summarizing the situation perfectly. I personally think it is terrible storytelling what they are doing there. It is by objective standards of good practice in writing a story, I'd claim. Not merely because there's an - as of yet - unexplained jump in the succession storyline, but because of the many unexplained gaps which CCP never pays attention to and which make every new gap not a mystery to be solved but simply another gap.
Of course, if your line where the suspension of disbelief breaks is as low as "I don't believe it, if CCP doesn't say that it's not happening.", then all is fine for you. I personally have higher standards as to that. To me, the EVE world has slowly but surely lost credibility to a degree that immersion into it is not possible for me any more, suspension of disbelief fails, because all those gaps are too prominent and one is constantly reminded of them.
My character lives in a world that's practically not navigable reasonably for her. What happens in the world is mainly connected by metagame-OCC interests of CCP and where reasons within the world for events are hardly discernible and those that are don't play a role in determining future events. She could as well roll dice as to decide on her actions and stances and would probably have a higher chance to be right then when following her world-knowledge in her decisions.
Silas is right on another thing, though. The majority of EVE-players is utterly uninterested in the EVE-storyline.
So, the point I made above stands: For good storyline and thus RP that is immersive into a world with a storyline, I can only recommend to look for outside of EVE. I personally will see if I find something else than RP to do in EVE. If I don't I couldn't give more fucks about playing the game than CCP gives about writing a good story for it.
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Wow, it is impossible to please folks.
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In my opinion, fictional worlds are by their nature unsustainable as they age, as they are not regulated by logic and cause-and-effect, but author temperament (or in some cases, memory) and outside-context needs. This is only exacerbated in cases where they are part of a shared universe or tied to a commercial product. It's easy for a simple world to be "believable", because it not only has purity of focus, but also has plenty of acceptable low detail gaps where things can be fudged over as needed. But more complex ones?
I've seen Eves really old lore material, and to be honest, I don't think it's much more internally consistent or even well written then the stuff that we have today. The only difference is there was less prexisting stuff to manage by it's makers - Less writers who have injected their own interpretations into the setting that have to be reconciled, less sheer bulk of information that has to be checked and considered. Less baggage. In those days, the creators could probably write something cool happening and rather then hitting a bunch of you-can't-do-this walls, where this group can't do such and such because of this group or this plot element.
In fact, it could even be an opportunity to enhance the fiction, by creating detail to support it. For example, if this were happening in Eve Year One and I were working as a writer, and the higher ups said to me, "Hey, make King Khanid part of this tournament thing! He's a cool character!" (and this sort of thing happens as a lot for game writers, as I understand it) and the exact mechanisms of the Empires political structure hadn't been fully defined, I could invent an old law or technicality he could use to get in, or a new character who could support him - Both of which could add to the world. But because all those elements are already laid out now and none of them have a means I could use, the choice is between Deus Ex Machina or bust.
Another way to think of the problem would be as a sort of uncanny valley of written universes. Draw a simple picture of a person, and it can be pleasant to look at even if it's not really perfect. But as you make a more and more advanced depictions, elements that are missing or "off" become more and more apparent and off-putting.
There's a reason reboots happen so often. Maybe it's time for a Crisis On Infinite New Edens?
No, but seriously, I dunno what one can really do about this.
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Great points.
Eve has the unfortunate status of having (i think?) a much smaller fiction team than they did at their peak, there's a very big IP for a smaller number of fiction people to wrangle.
I've got no issues with the writers but I suspect these are just low priority things for CCP corporate. Not that they used to care but they had x extra writers working on things to fill in plot for the nerds. Compare the big PR and chronicles and live event simulcast Caldari Prime stuff to this plot.
Anyway let's see how it goes perhaps all will be illuminated!! Or they make Khanid suicide off-character and I'll be sadface.
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Can't say I disagree Gwen. Rather I'd agree with Silas, you make great points.
Still, I think the fiction at the start of eve was less inconsistent: For the reason alone that there wasn't as much pre-existing fiction it could be in conflict with. As a fictional world ages, it becomes harder and harder to not get into conflict with preexisting stories/world facts. one could say, even, that sucha fictional world is born, at the start it has many developmental opportunities, but as those are realized they narrow down. The world develops character in return, you come to 'know' the world. It matures. Then, at some point, it can easily become so constrained that it might be rather restrictive, mayhaps to the point of being strangling any creativity.
All that is nothing new, though. It's well known amongst fiction writers and in the academic study of such. If you start out writing the fiction for a world, you can either take your time and some precautions that will allow you to minimize future problems. You can do so at any step along the way, too. Of course if some 'higher up' people push you to do stuff that hardly, if at all works by the intrinsic logic of the world you're kind'a fucked up.
But I think CCP's writers were rarely, if ever, good at seeing the big picture and to plan ahead. And those that did were apparently oftentimes replaced or had to go without replacement. All this shows in how many gaps there are in the fiction nowadays, how many contradictions there are within it and how new fiction is added without regard for prior fiction: Maybe even without checking the unorganized body of existing lore beforehand.
So, I'm basically saying nothing more than Silas does in much less words when pointing out: "I suspect these are just low priority things for CCP corporate." They probably are and it shows. They could've done much better, if they really wanted to, nonewithstanding the fact that writing a continuing, coherent story gets harder the more you have already written. The EVE fictional world aged quite fast to the point where it was riddled with gaps and holes in the fabric of lore. I personally think they did a particularly bad job there - at least I know a couple of examples where it worked out much better, because people put more work into maintaining their fictional world.
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Out of curiosity, which examples are you thinking about?
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The first and best example that comes to my mind is that of 'Dere' ('Ethra' in english), especially with the continent of 'Aventurien' ('Aventuria') - A fictional world created for the german Pen&Paper RPG 'Das Schwarze Auge' (DSA; The Dark Eye). It's been born with the first edition of the game in 1984 and has continuously been alive and developed through adventures, novels, letter- and forum-play of seated nobility and patricians, news-articles in a magazine that is largely an in-game newsletter. The way the world developed was largely shaped by the authors of the game but heavily influenced by players - especially those that participate(d) in the letter- and forum-play: This went as far as some of these players getting hired to write sourcebooks on the regions they were playing in.
Of course, Aventurien isn't without contradictions either. But the general guidelines have always been clear, the general societal rules established, the way they changed were understandable. Or, like this TED-Ed lesson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQTQSbjecLg) says: "Just like real-life, fictional world operate consistently within a spectrum of physical and societal rules. That's what makes these intricate worlds believable, comprehensible and worth exploring." And in general, that rule holds for Aventurien: The conflicts and adventures, it's historical dynamics (which spans at leas 45 years within the fictional world) arise mostly from within the world's own logic, rather than the world and it's physical as well as societal rules being re-shaped and molded to fit conflicts and plots that are desired by someone who comissioned the fictional world as 'fluff'.
Of course, the main selling point of DSA is the world which is so detail rich yet internally to quite a large degree consistent and coherent. It's made for roleplayers who enjoy such a world. EVE is not.
I can come up with other examples, but I think this is one of the best for a good fictional world having been built and changing in a player-author interaction. There are not that clear examples when it comes to PC-games, but I think it's entirely possible to realize such in silico, rather then in print. I guess though that the expected demand doesn't cover the development costs.
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Yeah I guess I can come with a lot of good example of tabletop lorebooks and expansions... I am not sure either for PC games, though i'm sure we could probably find here as well...
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Elder scrolls is a pretty well put together PC game universe, if a bit dry at times. I've heard people sing the praises of Everquests lore, as well, though I couldn't speak to that.
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To their defense though I guess that New Eden isn't exactly the easiest setting as well.
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The setting is background, its what they/we make of it.
Just like you can have amazing stories come out of a mediocre IP, you can have terrible stories out of a great IP.
Eve has had both in great measure.
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Still, making good stories out of mediocre/bad IP doesn't make the IP any better. And there are people who enjoy good IP.
Also, in general, it is easier to have amazing stories procured from good IP, rather than from bad IP.
Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.
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Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.
So why bother?
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Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.
So why bother?
Probably because Eve is a crap game if you can't find some meta way to get into it.
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Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.
So why bother?
Do I really need to explain? Emotional attachment. In general, humans don't like it if they have to give up on something they grew to be used to. Usually, it doesn't help if they have to give up on it gradually.
That's also true for me and EVE: I feel it's a loss that EVE's background fragments more and more into an inconsistent collection of fiction instead of remaining and developing as a coherent fictional world. I personally enjoyed playing EVE from a within the world RP perspective, to feel immersed in the world. You probably can call me an RP immersionist or and immersionist RPer. For me, to enjoy the kind of RP I'm doing, it's kind'a bad to not have a fictional world that has the physical and societal norms that make it "believable, comprehensible and worth exploring".
So, yes, I agree with what Gwen said: If you don't have a 'meta way to get into it', EVE is kind of a 'crap game'. Not saying EVE is a crap game in general, but while at some time it seemed worthwhile to play EVE for the sake of exploring the fictional world it's set in, that motivation is hard to maintain with the fracturing of PF into more and more independent and mutually inconsistent pieces.
Also, I bother because as a human I am kind'a attached emotionally to the EVE community - or rather the people I had much contact with over the years. It's saddens me that EVE as a game is not catching my interest anymore, because I don't really want to maintain it as an instant messenger - it's pretty expensive to do so.
And lastly, as a german I feel that one should either do something right or not do it at all. That includes building fictional worlds. ;P (This last point isn't to be taken serious, obviously.)
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Anyhow: To me the fictional world of New Eden lost consistency and coherence to such a degree that it stops being believable, comprehensible and worth exploring: In short being enjoyable.
So why bother?
Probably because Eve is a crap game if you can't find some meta way to get into it.
I can't say I disagree on that part...
Oh well, granted, when I was still young and still easily swayed, having friends and progression to do in space at such an excruciatingly slow rate (over months/years), and a certain amount of different things to try (still with that excruciatingly slow progression to make it last even longer..), I guess I stayed hooked up for a certain time before having to resort mostly on meta ways to stay into it..
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To sidetrack a little, I'd like to tackle the point on if Khanid became Emperor. Technically, no, the Kindgom doesn't have to suddenly become obsolete and I can demonstrate a great real world example.
Back in ye olden times of Britain, we had a sadly little remembered Queen of Great Britain called Anne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Queen_of_Great_Britain). She precided over the Act of Union that combined Scotland and England as one effective Kingdom, as well as seperately wielding the Crown of Ireland. She was in charge of 2 kingdoms, and while effectively they were governed in her cabinet as almost one territory in terms of foreign affairs, domestically there were still many differences in rule. In Ireland, she was the Queen of Ireland first and foremost, then the Queen of Britain. Two Kingdoms, one ruler.
On to another great example, her successor George I. George I was German, specifically the Elector Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (Hanover). De Jure, he was subject to the Holy Roman Emperor, de facto he was practically running a country in its own right, as did most of the electors, aside from the occasional bowing and kissing of the ring to the Emperor and supplying the Emperor's armies. This was counternanced with the very awkward position of being a potential rival to his Emperor by also being King of the independant, sovereign Kingdom of Britain, and also having the crown to the Kingdom of Ireland. Convoluted rulership much?
In effect, Hanover was a territory of his by right, and for the most part was ruled almost seperately from the fledgling British Kingdom, this state of affairs infact continued right up until George III who became King in his own right of Hanover, quite the upgrade. The last effective ruler to the three Kingdoms was William the IV, effectively the last 'Georgian' period ruler and father of our glorious Queen Victoria.
And there you have it, ruler of a large proto-empire, effectively ruling all three Kingdoms independant and unified by person and foreign affairs, not necissarily by domestic. If Khanid becomes Emperor, there is absolutely nothing stopping him simply ruling as Emperor of Amarr and King in right of the Khanid Kingdom as two seperate Crowns unified by the Person, not by law.
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As said on slack, I would argue that those examples do not exactly completely apply since in the case of Anne she wore titles of several Kingdoms, which means of similar weight and nobility. A kingdom doesn't include another kingdom. An empire like the HRE though, could.
The case of George I is interesting, but again the case is a bit specific (and very convoluted indeed) since George, king of Britain, owns a duchy that holds elective power to the HRE throne. De facto it means that this duchy technically isn't really part of the HRE anymore, but retains elective power... Right? I am interested to know more though, because it may still have been considered part of the HRE de facto...? Interesting case to be sure, which only the fragmented elective monarchy of the HRE can allow since most of those duchies and kingdoms are all very loosely connected to an elected emperor that holds very little power over them.
I think though, that as we spoke about, the Amarr Empire case is quite unique (in an unique fictional setting), where the newly elected emperor loses all titles and family attaches when he gets on the throne, to now be part and head of the Emperor Family behemoth, along with his close relatives. It would mean that Khanid relinquishes technically all claims to the Kingdom crown, and so, the Kingdom doesn't really HAVE TO be integrated, being transferred to his heir.
Now the question would be, would Khanid go for the integration of the Kingdom and force his heir to do so? Would he do the opposite? Would he even more, force his way to the Amarr throne while retaining his other titles?
I can definitely see him doing any of those things..
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To answer your question on Hanover, yes it remained a part of the HRE de facto right up until it became a Kingdom in its own right. So George I and II were both Kings and subjects.
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New news item and chronicle!
News: Revival of Shathol'Syn Ritual Confirmed as Tetrimon Order Given "Integrity of Succession" Role (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/revival-of-shatholsyn-ritual-confirmed/)
Chronicle: Testament (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/testament/)
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“That is the Final Will and Testament of Her Imperial Majesty Jamyl I. Unredacted. It is a most important document and writing it may yet prove to be the most important act of our late lamented Empress.”
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omg spoilers, Sami! D:
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Nice chronicle! Great to see Tetrimon stuff!!
No one 'sequesters' Khanid though :). I expect ninja vanish smoke bomb if he loses :p
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No one 'sequesters' Khanid though :). I expect ninja vanish smoke bomb if he loses :p
I'm going to need your home address so I can come collect the tears in person when you're wrong. >.>
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well, that's going to be an uncomfortable time for supporters of whoever is eliminated first.
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Champions have been selected:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451073&find=unread
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Nice chronicle! Great to see Tetrimon stuff!!
No one 'sequesters' Khanid though :). I expect ninja vanish smoke bomb if he loses :p
Have faith.
Khanid FTW! :yar:
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(http://i.imgur.com/dA5IUA1.png)
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I will grant something to the ic anti Khanid folks: just as the thought of Khanid suiciding is off character and makes no sense to us, so does the idea of Khanid winning and the rest of the heirs saying " ok sure!"
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Well, they've established it as no longer being a "suicide".
Now it's an assassination.
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I loved the trials so far and the rp its generated both on the IGS and in game. I thought the format was accessible as evidenced by the fact that several underdogs made it fairly far in to the tourney.
Makes me wonder of any analogs that might apply to the other races.
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I want to witness Khanid go, "Screw you guys!" and then separate from the Amarr Empire for another century or so.
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I maintain that someone who based his entire kingdom on refusing ritual suicide, who regularly clones himself to stay youthful in violation of several Heir taboos, and spends most of his time with a middle-finger pointed at the theology council is not going to suddenly go meekly into the suicide room.
Guess we'll see though, yea?
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I maintain that someone who based his entire kingdom on refusing ritual suicide, who regularly clones himself to stay youthful in violation of several Heir taboos, and spends most of his time with a middle-finger pointed at the theology council is not going to suddenly go meekly into the suicide room.
Guess we'll see though, yea?
I'd not be surprised to see either thing happening. It's just as unlikely that Khanid will suicide now as it was for the (other) Heirs to accept him into the trials. Everything goes by now.
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It's been stated pretty clearly by Falcon that as of Sunday, Garkeh is a dead man walking, as are Yonis, Merimeth and Uriam. They're sequestered and under observation by the Tetrimon for a reason.
The only tinfoily question is if Garkeh's successor is a clone of himself or not.
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I maintain that someone who based his entire kingdom on refusing ritual suicide, who regularly clones himself to stay youthful in violation of several Heir taboos, and spends most of his time with a middle-finger pointed at the theology council is not going to suddenly go meekly into the suicide room.
Guess we'll see though, yea?
You're aware that his "heir" is almost certainly just another clone of himself, right?
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It's been stated pretty clearly by Falcon that as of Sunday, Garkeh is a dead man walking, as are Yonis, Merimeth and Uriam. They're sequestered and under observation by the Tetrimon for a reason.
The only tinfoily question is if Garkeh's successor is a clone of himself or not.
If his succesor is a clone, then he's not really killed, no?
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It's been stated pretty clearly by Falcon that as of Sunday, Garkeh is a dead man walking, as are Yonis, Merimeth and Uriam. They're sequestered and under observation by the Tetrimon for a reason.
The only tinfoily question is if Garkeh's successor is a clone of himself or not.
If his succesor is a clone, then he's not really killed, no?
At this point I would say that yes, he would be, because his successor has been around for a long while and has his own history. At that point they're really two different people - and there's a reason I said "tinfoily."
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plot twist:
every male member of the Khanid royal family is a clone of King Khanid.
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At this point I would say that yes, he would be, because his successor has been around for a long while and has his own history. At that point they're really two different people - and there's a reason I said "tinfoily."
With being over 350 years old, and the last update having probably been made shortly before the trials, I'd argue that there is more than enough reason to call him the same person (it's under 1% deviation, really) - especially if Jamyl Sarum is to be considered the same person after the cloning and getting the other inserted and stuff...
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Sssshhh. Wasn't cloned. Was a miracle.
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At this point I would say that yes, he would be, because his successor has been around for a long while and has his own history. At that point they're really two different people - and there's a reason I said "tinfoily."
With being over 350 years old, and the last update having probably been made shortly before the trials, I'd argue that there is more than enough reason to call him the same person (it's under 1% deviation, really) - especially if Jamyl Sarum is to be considered the same person after the cloning and getting the other inserted and stuff...
This is assuming that the heir-clone has been getting updated with data from the king.
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well, if he intends to survive in the heir, that's more than reasonable to assume...
he could as well have sent a clone to the trials session, modified it with a TCMC to stay there happily and have his 'original' self cosmetically altered before removing his supposed successor and taking his place, ofc.
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Or maybe he was the broker all along.
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well, if he intends to survive in the heir, that's more than reasonable to assume...
he could as well have sent a clone to the trials session, modified it with a TCMC to stay there happily and have his 'original' self cosmetically altered before removing his supposed successor and taking his place, ofc.
Interesting idea!
I will go ahead and put down some money on 'shenanigans' of some sort and leave it at that for now.
The finals aren't until like next year though right? Guess we'll check in then and see!
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Alternative theory: existential ennui.
King Khanid's been there, done that, done that other thing too, and is ready to either move on to the next big thing or retire from the field with (restored) honor.
It's been a good life. Time to go.
(Not saying that no shenanigans are in the offing, just that it wouldn't necessarily be out of character for there not to be.)