Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 29 May 2015, 12:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzrC0OUOQG4
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I've always preferred "Jameel" over "Jamal", but whatevs.
Also, dat gurl has totes gone bat shit craycray giving entities which go against one of the core Amarrian beliefs of not having clones super leet shield technology.
Furthermore, this move to try and recruit as many capsuleers over to the Empire's side lends some interesting support when you account the whole Jamyl being possessed by a space demon thingy trying to protect itself.
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Is her space demon working with the drifters, or trying to protect itself from them?
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Perfect piece of news ICly, will definitely help me further my agendas.
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Perfect piece of news ICly, will definitely help me further my agendas.
/me half-smirking while holding a cigar in one hand and petting her fluffy white cat sitting in her lap with the other hand.
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I guess I am weak on this part of the Lore, but how is it a treaty violation?
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CONCORD directives indicating all new technology must be shared among the four empires.
I'm of mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, it's nice to see lore pieces relating to new technologies being released again; on the other, I'm also sort of feelig this exemplifies the "enforced stupidity" of NPC factions that we've come to see recently - which I've made no secret that I find to be an incredibly painful aspect of CCP's new plotlines.
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If she released it to all capsuleers, doesn't that, by definition, mean the empires all get access to it too?
Something isn't confidential once it's placed into general circulation...
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I guess I am weak on this part of the Lore, but how is it a treaty violation?
Because only CONCORD (and probably stations and stuff unshootable in space) were authorized to use it as far as I understand it. It was developed by Lai Dai and the Amarr in a joint effort too.
Jamyl breaks two treaties : the one with CONCORD, and the one with Lai Dai, which was probably not consulted either.
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Perfect piece of news ICly, will definitely help me further my agendas.
/me half-smirking while holding a cigar in one hand and petting her fluffy white cat sitting in her lap with the other hand.
(http://i.imgur.com/5M2Qb4o.gif)
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Ientities which go against one of the core Amarrian beliefs of not having clones
It's one of the big myths that there is such a belief amongst the Amarr:
There isn't.
I guess I am weak on this part of the Lore, but how is it a treaty violation?
Because only CONCORD (and probably stations and stuff unshootable in space) were authorized to use it as far as I understand it. It was developed by Lai Dai and the Amarr in a joint effort too.
Jamyl breaks two treaties : the one with CONCORD, and the one with Lai Dai, which was probably not consulted either.
That seems to be the implication. It's why I have to agree with Esna on the 'forced stupidity' part. I guess it will be used as a starting point for cooling relations between State and Empire and the eventual, already announceafaik, breaking up of the 2 vs 2 structure in favour of a 'free for all' one.
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Ientities which go against one of the core Amarrian beliefs of not having clones
It's one of the big myths that there is such a belief amongst the Amarr:
There isn't.
Except there is such a belief. It's not a myth. What it is though is a belief that has two sides. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Death#Amarr)
With regard to the actual development, I'm a bit annoyed as I can no longer claim that Amarr always upholds its treaties. Thanks Jamyl. This is certainly going to lower Sami's opinion of her quite a bit.
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Ientities which go against one of the core Amarrian beliefs of not having clones
It's one of the big myths that there is such a belief amongst the Amarr:
There isn't.
Except there is such a belief. It's not a myth. What it is though is a belief that has two sides. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Death#Amarr)
There is not such a belief, no: There is no core Amarrian belief that clones are not to be had.
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[accidental doublepost]
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Ientities which go against one of the core Amarrian beliefs of not having clones
It's one of the big myths that there is such a belief amongst the Amarr:
There isn't.
Except there is such a belief. It's not a myth. What it is though is a belief that has two sides. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Death#Amarr)
There is not such a belief, no: There is no core Amarrian belief that clones are not to be had.
What do you define as a core belief? Directly prohibited in the Scripture? Then no, there isn't, except for royalty. But there is certainly enough of an opposition to it that it is mentioned multiple times in PF that many Amarr are opposed to it out of belief that it denies the soul.
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I think it's quite reasonable to reserve the designation of 'core Amarrian belief' to beliefs that are at least shared by all Amarr that aren't heretics or apostates.
Even for royalty it's not at all clear that the 'not having clones' belief is directly following from Scripture, by the way: It is following from the Sacred Flesh (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sacred_Flesh) doctrine which says directly that the flesh of royalty is sacred. The restriction against the cloning of any member of a royal family is not part of the doctrine itself, but taken to be a consequence of the doctrine.
So, it might be a belief found amongst Amarr that Amarr generally ought not have clones: But that's far from being a core Amarrian belief, which really implies that it's universally held amongst Amarr. And not only that, but furthermore that it is a belief at the core of the beliefs shared by all Amarr, which indicates that other beliefs are derived from it, rather than the other way around. It is arguably neither.
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Alright, thank you for the clarification.
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I find it interesting that it was the Caldari (presumably on behalf of Lai Dai) and the Galletne objecting. First, because if the Gallente are objecting to somethign the Amarr did why not the Minmatar (unless I missed it?) and second because it hints at what might lead to 4 way FW if we start to see fractures between the Caldari/Amarr. After all, we know that the Caldari will go to be over their IP.
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I'd imagine Lai Dai isn't one of the ones objecting. I would expect it's the other megacorps that are opposed to it, as the association of a Caldari corp in a treaty violation scandal makes the rest of the State look bad by association.
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Well, unless Jamyl paid them, I don't know if Lai Dai would be down with a project that is presumably partially owned by them being given away for free.
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I find it interesting that it was the Caldari (presumably on behalf of Lai Dai) and the Galletne objecting. First, because if the Gallente are objecting to somethign the Amarr did why not the Minmatar (unless I missed it?) and second because it hints at what might lead to 4 way FW if we start to see fractures between the Caldari/Amarr. After all, we know that the Caldari will go to be over their IP.
Considering the last time the Minmatar Republic got into news they were doing something reactionary and make themselves look bad in the eyes of the cluster, I think they wisely decided to pipe down so as to avoid making themselves look even worse.
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Or, Elmund, the Republic is interested in the technology and would rather acquire it than make a fuss. The Republic hasn't been shy about ignoring Concord when they feel their autonomy is threatened. The Amarr released this technology due to the threat of invasion. The Republic has been stuck in that mindset since their founding. I think, on this issue the two nations think alike.
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For all their flaws the Republic isn't dumb enough to go 'oh a way to fight against what's likely a coming invasion by a superior force? BUT IT'S FROM AMARR BOOOOOO', they'd rather be alive and free than dead and making a pointless gesture of pouting at a gift.
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Matari all about grand gestures to make a point.
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/khuumak/
I could totally see them say "Take your shields and stuff it, Empress. We'll take our chances. They only seem interested in you, anyway."
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Well, that's assuming that objecting is the same as not using the tech. You can bet the Gallente and Caldari will use it. They can just also enjoy being outraged by Jamyl's actions at the same time.
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Matari all about grand gestures to make a point.
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/khuumak/
I could totally see them say "Take your shields and stuff it, Empress. We'll take our chances. They only seem interested in you, anyway."
In before Elder Fleet 2 figures out that entosis links break down the new shields, orbital strikes Jamyl, and gets away free of any consequences.
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Speaking of which, I forget what were the actual PF consequences for them blowing up that CONCORD station?
Didn't they pew pew a few hundred thousand people inside the station or something?
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ELDER FLEET 2: MATARI BOOGALOO
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Consequences? For the Minmatar? Surely you're joking.
In all seriousness, no, there were absolutely zero consequences for the Republic for that that have been made clear to players, as far as I know.
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Consequences? For the Minmatar? Surely you're joking.
In all seriousness, no, there were absolutely zero consequences for the Republic for that that have been made clear to players, as far as I know.
Isn't there something in the Yulai accords about if one nation attacks CONCORD or DED they have to all go after the offender or something?
Or am I mixing that up with NATO
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Consequences? For the Minmatar? Surely you're joking.
In all seriousness, no, there were absolutely zero consequences for the Republic for that that have been made clear to players, as far as I know.
Agreed. They seem to have completely bought the idea that the Elder Fleet was absolutely nothing to do with the Republic. Now, we know Shakor was owned by the Elders and not the other way around, but it's hard to imagine a shadow fleet constructed in America being used to attack Russia and the US ducking the fallout (literally?) by claiming this was the 'Freedom Fleet' and that it had nothing to do with them...
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Even if that member is also a CONCORD signatory ?
Anyway, there is also the stretched excuse that it wasn't technically the Republic that attacked, even if the funds to build that fleet were originally destined to them.
Anyway, CONCORD/DED PF rarely makes sense.
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I just find the idea of CONCORD being so absolutely stupid from top to bottom there were zero voices in power going 'hey this was clearly actually a Republic attack, they just weren't SO stupid to do it without a layer of smokescreen keeping them safe' utterly baffling.
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At least in the modern world, it takes a pretty thin pretext to give diplomatic cover. See: Ukraine, anywhere the US sends 'advisers' since Vietnam, etc. And there are a few reasons it works. A big one is generally the other side wants the cover there too. For CONCORD, that means it gives them an out so they don't have to try and start a war with the Republic. So everyone goes along with the useful fiction.
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I just find the idea of CONCORD being so absolutely stupid from top to bottom there were zero voices in power going 'hey this was clearly actually a Republic attack, they just weren't SO stupid to do it without a layer of smokescreen keeping them safe' utterly baffling.
I just found it amazing that their utterly critical C&C system had one control node & no backups. I mean when could they have taken the thing down for maintenance for a start? Oh, hang on, they do. At least once a day.
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At least in the modern world, it takes a pretty thin pretext to give diplomatic cover. See: Ukraine, anywhere the US sends 'advisers' since Vietnam, etc. And there are a few reasons it works. A big one is generally the other side wants the cover there too. For CONCORD, that means it gives them an out so they don't have to try and start a war with the Republic. So everyone goes along with the useful fiction.
I think the difference is nobody's pretending we're not there. To extend the analogy, the Republic pulled the equivalent of what Russia is doing in Ukraine ("no, no, we've got absolutely nothing to do with this massive military buildup... never mind it was all built in our factories, manned by our people" etc...).
Yeah, I think having the other empires immediately turn on and invade the Republic would have been massive overkill and not good for story or gameplay, but that nobody even called for sanctions is a little jarring. Same criticisms can be made regarding the Caldari and Amarr (Kador's incursion).
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Yea in the real world when that stuff happens we go 'ok we legally can't call you on it but we know you're doing it, and we're gonna do what we can to punish you for that'. I agree it'd be absurd to suddenly make Republic the kill on sight faction but really the fact that literally nothing at all happened is silly.
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Yea in the real world when that stuff happens we go 'ok we legally can't call you on it but we know you're doing it, and we're gonna do what we can to punish you for that'. I agree it'd be absurd to suddenly make Republic the kill on sight faction but really the fact that literally nothing at all happened is silly.
And suddenly, I understand where the Republic Fleet got the guts to shove a battlefleet into Federation space, resulting in Colelie where their dreads got slaughtered by Moroses in close range.
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I would have much preferred no Elders, and actually just the regular Republic secretly building the giant force to rescue their people.
Fiddle the plot however necessary to not have all out war immediately follow, but I think it would be much more Minmatar to have Maleatu Shakor starving half the republic to secretly fund a giant 'fuck you' fleet for fifty years to shit on one of the Amarr home systems and rescue millions of Matari.
And it actually would have been much, much better for Amarr RP if there were no deus ex machina. If they got beaten, and they got beaten badly in one single ambush fight, (not a long war the Republic would certainly lose) and the Matari make it out with their people and somehow CONCORD stops a war from breaking out after. I think much better for Amarr PF character growth as a race to be caught flat-footed resting on their laurels and the Matari actually never forgetting, constantly plotting for decades to strike back and get their people out.
Let it play out afterwards that the Amarr get all 'reclaimy' and wake the sleeping giant to crush the republic and then the republic has to reap what they've sown, but I think the Amarr home fleet being caught off guard in a surprise dreadnaught flotilla for a few hours to rescue all those Matari without Jamyl win sauce would have been worth it.
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Yea gotta agree there, it'd be more interesting for Amarr and Rep RP to have it just straight up 'oh so I guess it's back on huh'
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Yea gotta agree there, it'd be more interesting for Amarr and Rep RP to have it just straight up 'oh so I guess it's back on huh'
Anything that results in gigantic Typhoon on Armageddon mass-orgy action is always welcome.
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Yea in the real world when that stuff happens we go 'ok we legally can't call you on it but we know you're doing it, and we're gonna do what we can to punish you for that'. I agree it'd be absurd to suddenly make Republic the kill on sight faction but really the fact that literally nothing at all happened is silly.
And suddenly, I understand where the Republic Fleet got the guts to shove a battlefleet into Federation space, resulting in Colelie where their dreads got slaughtered by Moroses in close range.
Colelie worked out perfectly. The Republic got exactly what they wanted and they only had to trade a few dreadnaughts for it. The Federation finally started paying attention to the Republic's demands, but since they won the fight, didn't feel the need to retaliate or break up the alliance.
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^^^^
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You are not serious, are you ?
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No, that's perfectly serious.
Colelie was a statement. And it worked perfectly. Anyone who thinks it was supposed to be a conventional battle really doesn't get Minmatar.
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Oh, I perfectly get the Minmatar.
The fact that they care for their kin to no end, and that any rational civilized society anyway wouldn't send thousands of crew to sudden death "just to make a statement", though, is what breaks suspension of disbelief for me. All the Midular arc was one of the worst they did to my eyes, right after TEA. And not just because I liked Midular.
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Yea I don't understand how 'family and tribe first' gels with 'death mission of massive crewed ships just to make a statement
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We are veering off of topic but IMO Colelie was fairly silly on just about all fronts.
I realize they have to shoe-horn some of these plots around things that can happen in space, but watching a ton of matari dreads suicide in that particular way was poorly done. It reminded me of the time all those shield-tanked blood raider ships got lolwrecked for a smaller event.
Back to Jamyl, now that patch is out have there been any new goings on in game or news feeds about ze drifters and such?
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I realize they have to shoe-horn some of these plots around things that can happen in space, but watching a ton of matari dreads suicide in that particular way was poorly done.
As opposed to ton of both Gallente and Minmatar NPCs suiciding themselves against capsuleers in missions since the appearance of capsuleers? :psyccp: At least this time they had a chance.
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Naglfars at zero on Moroses is anything but "having a chance".
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Also :NPCs: in general. They're best not to look at unless you want to tear your hair out. We tend to have an expectation of more logic when there's an actual human at the controls, though.
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The weird thing is: There is a real human controlling those NPCs decisions...
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The weird thing is: There is a real human controlling those NPCs decisions...
I believe that is what he just said captain.
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Yeah, sorry. I meant, we can generally look away from the actions of purely code-based NPCs in things like missions, since they behave so illogically it's not even worth trying to rationalize them.
But, at live events when there is an actual dev behind the actor accounts, we expect a higher degree of intelligence.
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Yeah, sorry. I meant, we can generally look away from the actions of purely code-based NPCs in things like missions, since they behave so illogically it's not even worth trying to rationalize them.
But, at live events when there is an actual dev behind the actor accounts, we expect a higher degree of intelligence.
I think it's more like "tomorrow afternoon I need....(looks around at least busy programmers who might not play the game much) you 6 people to stay late after work and do a live event thing, we'll have ships fitted for you and I'll fleet warp all of you."
I donts wants to stays late, I has the beer to drink
Yea me either! The beer!
Fine, I'll.... quadruple box half of the event *ugh*
:P
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or they just drank the beer at the same time to maximize efficiency.
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or they just drank the beer at the same time to maximize efficiency.
I would really not be surprised by this xD
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Perfect piece of news ICly, will definitely help me further my agendas.
/me half-smirking while holding a cigar in one hand and petting her fluffy white cat sitting in her lap with the other hand.
omg that is so perfect lol
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So what skill do I have to train to fit these CONCORD shield extenders to my Caracal?
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So what skill do I have to train to fit these CONCORD shield extenders to my Caracal?
Dev-hacks IV?