Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Silver Night on 15 Jun 2010, 12:15
-
See it here: http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=15-06-10
Seems interesting. I'm not sure I'm thrilled with the degree of control over planets it implies Capsuleers have now.
-
First thought: the art is badass.
-
Omvistus is a char ingame... 1month 26 days... possibly how long ago the chron was written?
-
Uh...seriously...what? I admit I'm not the biggest fan of the "capsuleers as demigods" meme, but I think this is really just ridiculous. Codifying stuff that is game mechanic shorthand and makes no sense in reality (like everything being automated, capsuleers having absolute power over government officials for no reason, etc) seems like a really bad rabbit hole to go down. Cloning was one thing, this just doesn't make any sense at all. Put me down as another person that does not understand why anyone puts up with capsuleers at all if they are all overentitled megalomaniacs. You gotta sleep sometime.
If everything can be automated to such a degree, why doesn't everyone do it already? What is the point of a government that cannot ensure the safety of its citizens (unless they cross a very strangely drawn line, in which case the hammer of god comes down and smites them from the heavens)? Consistency is a good thing people...
-
I think chron art is usually pretty good. Interesting how the capsuleer in this story has chosen to make himself look like a Strogg. :twisted:
Will have to agree with Silver on the implications of this particular depiction of PI. I could buy a capsuleer behaving that way in nullsec with a colony inside his own alliance's sov, but in empire space threats of that kind could never be fulfilled. While it's possible that they're serious about making the "nuke it from orbit" part of Dust 514 a big deal and killing millions of planetary residents to make a couple ISK will be both possible and typical of capsuleers, I think the planetary administrator in this chron was just a spineless moron. Creepy Amarrian pod pilot spooked him and he folded before the flop.
-
Somehow I get the trillions of people in EVE is going to be seeing a population cut in the next year or so.
-
Uh...seriously...what? I admit I'm not the biggest fan of the "capsuleers as demigods" meme, but I think this is really just ridiculous. Codifying stuff that is game mechanic shorthand and makes no sense in reality (like everything being automated, capsuleers having absolute power over government officials for no reason, etc) seems like a really bad rabbit hole to go down. Cloning was one thing, this just doesn't make any sense at all. Put me down as another person that does not understand why anyone puts up with capsuleers at all if they are all overentitled megalomaniacs. You gotta sleep sometime.
If everything can be automated to such a degree, why doesn't everyone do it already? What is the point of a government that cannot ensure the safety of its citizens (unless they cross a very strangely drawn line, in which case the hammer of god comes down and smites them from the heavens)? Consistency is a good thing people...
this this this.
It makes no sense for capsuleers to given this much power with no oversight, its fine for gameplay purposes, but in fiction its just a huge throbbing wound. It makes the empires seem retarded, powerless, and useless. No sane government would allow any one group that much reckless freedom, its just absurd.
-
I posted in the comment thread (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1337023) and it might be good if others did so as well, if for no other reason than to let Hjalti (Abraxas) know we're paying attention. :P :bash:
-
From the government's perspective, a capsuleer developing the planet (notice, by the way, that he said that the emplacement of facilities was automated, not the operation of them) is a wonderful thing. It's infrastructure development with no overhead for the government. Jobs will be created, etc.
Now, was the capsuleer's threat a bluff or an actual intention? I'm going to go with "bluff". After all, capsuleers up to this point have been characterized as often inhuman, impatient, selfish bastards. This fits right into that: the pilot can't actually bombard the planet without a CONCORD response, but the planetary administrator doesn't know that. He's not a pod pilot, he doesn't know the rules "we" live under.
So the capsuleer threatens, the reputation capsuleers have works for him, and he gets his way. Selfish, petty, powerful, and without ethics. That's not a new story device.
-
A capsuleer developing the planet is good if they get anything from it. If what they get is an asshole stealing everything he can take and threatening the governor at gunpoint to do obey his every whim, the government has essentially become redundant. It is worthless. Why can CONCORD vaporize a capsuleer if they accidentally catch an indestructible stargate with a microsmartbomb, but CONCORD sits there with its thumb up its ass if a capsuleer threatens to wipe out thousands of people because he didn't get his holoreels fast enough?
-
Because the capsuleer hasn't done it. It's the same way that you can have celebrities talking about how they'd like to see the President assassinated: they might be encouraging an unlawful act, but there's no way that they're going to get prosecuted unless they actually violate the law. Amplify that celebrity power by a bit and...
Capsuleers are not push-overs. They have political connections, money beyond belief, and the empires need them. They're the kind of people that can look at "Bill Gates" figures with a dismissive eye. They can say what they like, when they like, and to whom they like, without repercussion, because of the storm of wrath any government that tried to stop them would entail.
Imagine, for example, what might happen if Roden published a decree stating that any pilot using Caldari ships in the FDU would have his clone contract revoked? What would that do to the Federation war effort? What would it do to planetary development if you had to wait a week to cut through red tape in the Fed, while in Caldari space you got it immediately? Exactly.
-
Uhm....the capsuleer certainly has "done it". Threatening someone at gunpoint is extortion. And you make this argument like everyone government has to bow to the capsuleers because otherwise they will be fucked by all the others -- except that CONCORD is an entity designed precisely to combat that exact problem. The capsuleers are entirely dependent on the governments and corporations for their continued "immortality". It is in no one's interests to let capsuleers behave like this -- certainly not all capsuleers everywhere like CCP seems to want to portray it. I could buy it if it was one bad apple, but that's not how they are portraying things.
Even pirates aren't going to give capsuleers unchecked power, because then the pirates just become their victims -- more than anyone, they should realize what happens when you can't keep someone on a leash. This current trend is just retardedly ridiculous, and makes no sense. Furthermore, if automation is as good as this chron portrays, why are there human grunt workers at all? Why do the Caldari insist on having misery factories if automation is so fast, cheap, and easy that they could just have robots do everything? Are they the villains from Captain Planet or something? Jesus.
Take 10 minutes and think about where the logical progression of the events in your storylines go, people, and then think whether being "dark and grim and grim and dark" is as important as I don't know, a halfway consistent narrative.
-
Vik, I see the example you're trying to make, though I'll note that the example you cite actually is an illegal act and will lead, at a minimum, to a USSS investigation. I speak with firsthand knowledge on this matter. That corresponds decently with Svet's point about extortion.
I like to think that it was a bluff, of course, but the automation bits have troubled me for a long time. I've chosen to treat it as an area where the fictional implications don't bear a close examination and just symbolize what really goes on.
-
I did some thinking about logical progression, and posted to that thread.
Likely not a good idea for all parties involved, but, hey, 100-degree fever.
-
I will illustrate the thoughts in my brain while reading the chron:
(http://www.bloodygoodhorror.com/bgh/files/darthVader.jpg)
(http://www.prepresspilgrim.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/picard-facepalm.jpg)
:P
Maybe this is part of setting the stage for pew pew on planets in Dust? Even if it's "lol I blauff u stopid dirtcrawler lololol" it's a bit too much for my taste.
-
got to say, this chronicle is the wow equivalent of pointing out how the opposing factions on a pvp server can slaughter their way through a major city and the people will just respawn later that die. Obviously they don't call attention to it, because there is a difference between storyline, and gameplay, a difference CCP seems to be attempting to pretend isn't there, and this chron doesn't make it seems like it isn't there, but instead of having an elephant standing outside trying not to be noticed, the elephant has moved into your lap and left you a huge turd.
-
Plotline-wise, I have to agree with a couple of the other posters that this seemed a bit... overdone.
He actiivates his tageting systems, appears to be fully threatening to unleash a devestating orbital bombardment...
But he doesn't. Yes, he doesn't. And maybe CONCORD would have responded if he had. But they're going to wait until AFTER?
"We're verry sorry, Mr. Gallente System Governor. We had every indication he was about to kill millions of your people, but we didn't want to do anything until we had cold proof he was going to."
....yeah.
Also, intersting technology note: Railgun turrets are evidently aimed by low-intensity lasers, which, although powerful enough to penetrate hundreds of kilometers of atmophere and still generate an appreciable return, also interact enough with a planetary atmosphere at ground level to generate a glow visible to the human eye and (presumably) still not cause appreciable thermal heating to solid ssufaces.
-
Also, intersting technology note: Railgun turrets are evidently aimed by low-intensity lasers
He is Amarrian... ;)
Besides, it doesn't seem that crazy an idea (http://news.discovery.com/space/observatory-laser-military-satellites.html) to me. We can do that at a range of 90km with today's technology.
-
Besides, it doesn't seem that an idea crazy (http://news.discovery.com/space/observatory-laser-military-satellites.html) to me. We can do that at a range of 90km with today's technology.
No, I was more commenting that the laser is refracting or reflecting enourmous amounts of energy into the atmosphere - enough to light the windows with a glow visible to the naked eye - yet still somehow didn't generate appreciable heating.
-
Fair to say the planetary administrator was feeling some heat? :D
-
I think he was using a Target Painter to increase the signature radius of the colony :P
The red glow but lack of utter annihilation makes it seem like a target painter.
-
Meh, I loved it. Capsuleers are Gods. Done deal. Probably the best chronicle I've read in a long time.
Capsuleers are for the very most part entirely likely to make threats, demands and extort entire planetary governments if they so choose just to make ISK. Why? Why not? No reason not to. I can yellowbox anything I want in this game, without Concord smacking me down. I can make any threat I want, make any demand I want... and I'm fairly sure that if I could interact with non-capsuleers in that way, I'd get what I want because the non-capsuleer knows only one thing:
Capsuleers are Gods. Angry Gods.
And the larger nations accept it for one single reason: What little 'bad' we do, and what problems we cause... is nowhere near the problems they'd face if the capsuleer caste had to be removed.
-
the problem is not that capsuleers are angry gods, the problem is that CCP wants them to be angry gods and then carry on with the rest of the universe as if they are not. There's a fundamental disconnect between how they portray capsuleers and how they portray the NPC universe, which makes the game completely nonsensical.
So capsuleers are angry gods who are completely untouchable? Why does an organization exist whose very purpose is to keep them under control (CONCORD)? How is it that any government continues to be able to exist when evidently their officials can be order to do anything at gunpoint with (apparently) no recourse? If the capsuleers are not beholden to any government, why are the governments of the cluster depending on them for proxy wars? Why do they continue to pay them obscene sums of money for various tasks instead of training up their own capsuleers with cortex bombs implanted in them or something? Why did they allow this situation to evolve in the first place? This hasn't been a gradual erosion of government authority -- private capsuleers have only been around supposedly as long as the game has been around. This is like the US government suddenly deciding it's a great idea to just give everyone their own tactical nuclear weapons to protect the country. That's retarded. If there was no government in the first place, and capsuleers were the only law, I could see this state of affairs -- but CCP wants to carry on like the rest of the world continues as if nothing has happened. That's the problem.
-
Damn Capsuleers. I'll kill 'em all myself if I have to!
... wait.
-
I have a big problem with this chron. I'm not even sure why the empires have agreed to this if capsuleers can actively violate the sovereignty of CONCORD worlds.
On the other hand, if this capsuleer can carry out his duty as malevolent, then I'm sure some of us can spin as benevolent too.
Also, maybe CONCORD giving capsuleers an illusion of power is something...they can just pull the plug at any time
-
Assuming Omvistus isn't just a delusional maniac,
What is Faction Warfare For ?
Capsuleers fighting other capsuleers, so that governments can "control" planets, but that "control" is surrenderable at the slightest provocation by a capsuleer?
WAT?
Also, planetary bombardment means the end of EVE as a credible setting. It means no inhabitable worlds in short order. Fine if your setting is supposed to be the End Times, and everything is being wound up, with the last person standing being the absolute ruler of thousands of dead and dying worlds, but as a living setting? No.
-
Early instance of preparing the way for the need for troops capable of taking on capsuleer-controlled planetary holdings...
...maybe. ;)
Cos
PS. On factional warfare... yes, a missed opportunity here. I feel the militias should probably have been the only ones allowed to develop planets in militia warzones according to occupation status. This would give a seriously tangible benefit to FW. Maybe it will come one day but it should have been part of this from day one. Ah well.
-
On factional warfare... yes, a missed opportunity here. I feel the militias should probably have been the only ones allowed to develop planets in militia warzones according to occupation status. This would give a seriously tangible benefit to FW. Maybe it will come one day but it should have been part of this from day one. Ah well.
Pretty much my feeling on the matter too. I think only militia members should be allowed to erect POSes and maintain planetary operations in Empire space. :/
-
In all high sec? Um no. That's what faction standings are for, though obviously militia have an advantage there. Though again a missed opportunity IMO for Planetville.
-
In all high sec? Um no. That's what faction standings are for, though obviously militia have an advantage there. Though again a missed opportunity IMO for Planetville.
Well, yes, I think even in highsec, but admittedly I think my views are a little extreme. I think it would be good to push as many people to align with the empires as much as possible though -- even if you join the militia, if you stay in highsec you're still mostly safe (but not _completely_ safe).
-
Yep, I was hoping they would integrate PI and FW. But it's too late now, I don't see how they can when non-FWers have built in FW lowsec now...oh well...
-
Eh, Faction Warfare's a joke to many characters. Would be stupid to expect people to join just for PI purposes.
-
It's not just a joke to the characters... hell, these days it's a joke to the devs.
-
Not so much concerned about the mechanics of FW and PI, but how they are seen in-character.
"Join the Tribal Liberation Force, to rescue our people from slavery!" says the FW thing, or thereabouts.
But, given the events of the chronicle, it seems any capsuleer could go to any of the planets and use threat of bombardment to force an end to slavery on that planet.
So... what's the point of capturing the space plexes?
-
But, given the events of the chronicle, it seems any capsuleer could go to any of the planets and use threat of bombardment to force an end to slavery on that planet.
Until another capsuleer came along and blasted him out of the sky. Or the other faction's navy. Or whatever... PI is 'legal' as it were. FW is also kind of legal, but doesn't exactly happen in the safest of areas.
-
think of it more like a non-factional warefare minamatar pilot coming along and doing that in every system of Amarr highsec.
-
Probably the least well thought out, poorly written chron in a long time. I actually cannot think of one that's dumber than that. I actually can't figure out how anyone over at CCP thought that was a reasonable depiction of Planetary Interaction.
-
You guys seem to forget that Capsuleers being given access to the planetside industry has been agreed on by the various governments. That there's capsuleers who stretch their newfound authority by backing up their demands with guns isn't even remotely unlikely, nor something that any of the governments will be chafing about, quite simply because it's a price worth paying due to the sheer amount of development and ISK being poured down to the planet's surface.
That guy threatened to kill millions. He's providing the planet with such a ridiculous influx of ISK, jobs and sudden relevance in a greater scale (along with capsuleer protection as the corporation will be protecting their assets) that the millions in question is a tiny price to pay even if he had fired.
Nothing wrong with the chronicle. It was the best one in ages.
-
[spoiler]Most of his head was obscured by cybernetic implants: curved, metallic attachments that spread around his skull at every angle, completely concealing his eyes, nose, and mouth. Power and information cables stretched from each implant to somewhere off camera on either side, making it seem like he was suspended in a spider web instead of seated comfortably in a starship in orbit high above the planet.
It was only a simulacrum, an image that this person chose to portray of themselves ...
[/spoiler]
I demand a simulacrum NOW! My current avatar is not nearly evil looking enough!
-
You guys seem to forget that Capsuleers being given access to the planetside industry has been agreed on by the various governments.
How, exactly, do you get from that to "governments have agreed capsuleers can orbitally bombard their planets at will if people aren't obeying their whims"? It also still doesn't explain the suddenly awesome automation technology either.
-
I'm really not all that surprised by the automation tech, I mean, it seemed like the structures themselves weren't automated, just the deployment process, which isn't that intensive.
Just drop down a bunch of prefab structures, and connect them together with worker drones.
-
With Nikita on this. Intelligent pre-fab components (see: smartfab units), top tier materials, rapid orbital deployment capability (just watch the Tyrannis login screen), nanofacture (see: armor reps, nanopaste); these parts of PF come together to make the automation thing reasonable within the setting. Of course, the installation process for PI infrastructure isn't what bugged me about this chron...
I think we're all in agreement that once installed, these facilities are operated by flesh-and-blood employees/slaves with or without a compliment of drones, yes?
As for the CONCORD planetary development treaty, I think Svetlana's got it right in that last post. The treaty serves the capsuleer community and the empires by permitting our wealth to be expended directly into planetary economies. It's good for business. Omvistus' behavior is bad for business regardless of whether he actually drops processing units on top of unsuspecting cities, which I don't think he would have in the first place. He's not developing any longer, but rather threatening genocidal destruction. He's gone from being an impossibly rich and powerful real estate developer and construction mogul (what empire PI really should be about, for now) to being a terrorist with a god gun pointed at you.
The problem is that the chron never shows us the consequences of dealing with people that way. (For that, see Vieve's short story (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1337203) on the EVE Fiction forum.)
Finally,
I demand a simulacrum NOW!
Seconded, Graan.
-
Capsuleer can place dozens of spaceports onto a planet.
Capsuleer can threaten the planetary government.
Capsuleer has transport ships, freighters, etc. Lots of logistic ability.
So, they build lots of spaceports, and say "these rockets are for evacuating the entire Minmatar slave population off your planet. You will not interfere, or else"
So... why would they need the Republic Fleet to occupy the system? Why FW?
-
And conversely, why does the Amarr Navy need to occupy systems to take slaves?
-
Re: PI facility automation. Feel dumb for missing this as I have read it before... From the barren/temperate PI command center item description:
The modular design of this administrative structure allows it to be deployed piecemeal from orbit, then manually assembled on the surface by MTACs and engineering personnel.
The hostile world, gas giant, and ocean command centers talk about other methods concerning the conditions on those planets, but this clearly demonstrates just how much the capsuleer in this chron was talking out his rear exhaust port. Possibly he intended that only employees of his own corporation conduct the assembly.
Also, the description for the temperate/barren spaceport reinforces the interaction these facilities have with the local populations in case anyone ever has any doubt (not that any of us here have):
The obvious importance of a centralized spaceport often leads to its becoming a focal point of local culture, including trade, entertainment, and even illegal activities.
-
Ok, I've had a sudden inspiration and have completely changed my stance on this chron. It is actually an incredibly subtle, amazing aversion of the the A God Am I, Complete Monster capsuleer archetype that some have pushed.
The way I thought of this was because I was thinking how much he was more or less just how a crappy RPer pushes his awesome, badass character who hasn't done anything.
The facts: Omvistus exists in game. He is 2 months old. He is in the Amarr noob corp. Omvistus flies a battleship, has the skills to use large rail guns, and put down dozens of command centers and other PI units all in a short period of time.
Omvistus is actually a new capsuleer who is putting on a front and has no actual power whatsoever and probably flies an extremely poorly fitted battleship.
We know he's Amarr, so it's likely he flies an Amarrian battleship. But he's also fitting railguns. And it appears he's using targeting painters of some sort (the laser sights). He's only two months old, so it's unlikely the skills for his BS or rails or anything else are all that good. He's unlikely to have the skill points to use advanced implants.
Yet his holographic avatar features him extremely creepy with massive implants. It has a booming, echoing voice. He claims to be in a massively important and powerful corp when he is, in fact, actually in the rookie corporation.
Omvistus is just completely and totally pathetic and bluffing. He's trying to sound so cool and badass, but in reality he is a giant tool. He doesn't know how to fit his ship, doesn't know how things work, and is bad at physics (a matter-antimatter annihilation produces known particles, not unidentified ones, for example).
At least, that's the way I'm reading it now, because otherwise it's really, really dumb.
-
If the planetary governor had laughed him off the comm, I would take that interpretation. But the governor did not appear to be taking him less than seriously.
-
The governor's clearly not an EVE player.
-
The governor didn't know. How could he? But we know. We know.
-
So what happens if we pod this guy in game and show the planetary administrator?
-
So what happens if we pod this guy in game and show the planetary administrator?
*runs a locator on Omvistus*
And though I side with the camp that says he was bluffing, this will probably lead to posts by members of the opposite camp making claims, sniping back and forth between both camps over the legitimacy of said claims, and a lot of unpleasantness in general. :ugh:
-
As a note, Omvistus was docked in Chaven the last time we know. (As another note, this "temperate planet" happens to be a lava planet. I assume that it'll be retconned at some point to the fifth planet in the system or some other temperate planet.)
However, I'd welcome the guy as a recurring character to later examine his thoughts etc., though of course, primarily the chronicles have concentrated on things that are not generally available to capsuleers (i.e. not ingame).
-
Omvistus is just completely and totally pathetic and bluffing. He's trying to sound so cool and badass, but in reality he is a giant tool.
This, this and this again. This is what I was thinking the whole time before reading any of this forum response stuff.
I think it was great, I really enjoyed it.
If the planetary governor had laughed him off the comm, I would take that interpretation. But the governor did not appear to be taking him less than seriously.
My response to this is from the chron itself:
In reality, the efficiency of Federation politics, combined with their peace-oriented foreign policy, had rendered many of his duties unnecessary, resulting in his being regarded by many officials as a glorified middle manager instead of a frontier diplomat.
He's an inexperienced idiot! We only think he's not because the chron is largely told from his perspective. And 9 times out of 10, idiots don't know they're idiots.
I for one, greatly enjoyed the chron and what it implied. That the planet-bound have an inflated sense of the capsuleers, allowing noob rookies to mouth off while showing a scary image of himself with his darth vadar voice synthesiser. He's a toothless tiger, but Yvesk has no experience or knowledge to say otherwise.
-
I for one, greatly enjoyed the chron and what it implied. That the planet-bound have an inflated sense of the capsuleers, allowing noob rookies to mouth off while showing a scary image of himself with his darth vadar voice synthesiser. He's a toothless tiger, but Yvesk has no experience or knowledge to say otherwise.
Yes, I think it's totally this. It was wonderfully subtle though and demonstrates excellently the usefulness of an unreliable narrator. I totally should have noticed it since I know Abraxas has stated Gene Wolfe as one of his inspirations and I've also been recently reading a shit ton of Gene Wolfe (and am thus inundated with the good unreliable narrator). But it took me a day to put it all together.
-
For the record, CCP Headfirst (not Abraxas) wrote this particular chronicle.
-
Oh? Missed that part. Never heard of Headfirst before.
-
After reading this thread up until the post prior to this, then reading the Chronicle again, I have to say that I, also, suddenly find this to be greatly amusing. All other stuff aside, it comletely meshes with who capsuleers are - Omvistus still doesn't give a damn about the planet dwellers; he, however, is not about to wipe out several million people just to get his way. He knows better than that. So he plays on everything from the planetary governor's ignorance and stupidity to the mythos and terror that they regard capsuleers with, and plays it perfectly.
-
The problem with the amusing interpretation is that there is absolutely no context in the story that would make you come to that conclusion. If there was, I'd be willing to grant it, but nothing in the story gives any indication that it is a ridiculous threat.
-
There's not supposed to be any context though. If a big, scary guy corners you in an alley and tells you to give him your money or he'll shoot, there's probably not gonna be any hints even if he's only got an unloaded gun and wouldn't shoot you even if there were bullets in it.
But there's subtext all over. It's pointed out that the capsuleer doesn't look like how he appears to the governor. So you know he's purposefully choosing the intimidating look, just because it's intimidating. Add that to the out-of-story knowledge (you know CCP can age the character and could make a corp for him if they wanted to. If they went through the effort to create the character in game, why not go the whole way unless you purposefully don't want to?) and the conclusion is the "amusing" interpretation.
-
If my job was to regularly deal with chump muggers though, I think I could pick out a chump mugger pretty easily. I dunno. I also think the "capsuleers are unassailable demigods" theme has been one CCP has pushed before to my displeasure, so I tend to think this is just more of the same.
-
I'm not sure the (entirely plausible, even probable) explanation of Omvistus-as-nublet does anything more than mildly dent the original criticisms. Even if he's just a lamer writing checks his implants can't cash, and the administrator is a clear case of the Peter principle in action, by all appearances he's nonetheless gotten away with it. Granted, the endstate here is probably beyond the scope of a single chron. But as it stands, the extrapolated significance of these events regarding the impotence of everyone other than the eggers is just as irritating as it was at the start. Maybe more so, since if a clueless nitwit can do all this, then what will a veteran podder with an alliance behind them do?
(The unnecessary literalism regarding game constructs is harder hit, since it's likely that Omvistus is bluffing, exaggerating, or just pants-on-head retarded regarding the reality of it all, but if he's not, then it comes back with full force.)
-
It's now his job to deal with chump muggers. For a long while, it wasn't. It was his job to be little more than a middle management type in the greater Federation bureaucracy.
-
I loved the piece myself. I think its rather telling that even if he did wipe out millions of people, his transgressions would probably impact his security status and an aggression timer. IE. he'll get a slap on the wrist and send a deadly message to the people on their planet that they need to cooperate...or else.
-
I loved the piece myself. I think its rather telling that even if he did wipe out millions of people, his transgressions would probably impact his security status and an aggression timer. IE. he'll get a slap on the wrist and send a deadly message to the people on their planet that they need to cooperate...or else.
Finally! This, basically.
-
Capsuleers have been written into the universe as the essential component to interstellar trade.
I think its sometimes difficult for people to really grasp this connection because we as players rarely ever actually interact with the empires beyond missions and trading (formerly) worthless commodities like livestock and consumer electronics to spacebound companies and government institutions. It's nearly impossible for us to see what kind of impact we have that justifies the atrocities we commit against them, or why it feels unbelievable that we are given such power.
Why don't they just switch off the clones and tell us to DIAF? Because we have to imagine ourselves important enough to the nations to overlook these kind of transgressions. We're penalized (sec hits) by CONCORD for transgressing against our fellow pilots, not because it's ammoral, but because CONCORD exists to ensure commerce flows smoothly between the empires, and that's as involved as they get in our affairs. And even then we're given an opportunity to redeem ourselves by regaining that security status by helping them do their job of regulating the economy by ridding the lawless elements.
It's unfortunate that the lore doesn't make a better effort to remind people of this.
-
I thought it was totally badass.
-
On Headfirst: Apparently, the live event return blog had content from him. He also wrote Ante (the chron where Silphy went back to Intaki).
-
Planetary Administrator Leonalle Yvesk is now my favorite EVE personality. :D
Let's see. He's the boss of a billion people. In the greater scheme of Federation politics he may be seen as a "glorified middle manager", but he's still the boss of an entire fucking planet, with the power to make decisions affecting a billion people's lives - among other things, tossing millions of them out of their homes with no prior notice. His planet is presented as a world close to the frontlines of a huge interstellar war (the factuality of this has been contested, but that's how the story presents it).
Yvesk, however, does not let such details go to his head. When he travels to work, he does so using public transportation together with a crowd of random strangers - both a humble and highly courageous thing to do for a man of such rank and responsibility. It would be wrong to say he is completely free of pride, though, as he allows himself some satisfaction at the deferrent demeanor of his single junior aide, who is, apparently, all the staff he needs assistance from during this highly delicate meeting.
All this is highly impressive behavior for the boss of a billion people.
As an aside, can anyone explain to me what in all the world the rationale behind Omvistus' threat of orbital bombardment was? Because I'm not seeing it.
Let's see. He tells Yvesk the spaceport components will be dropped in six hours. Yvesk retorts that evacuating people will take a week, and demands more time. Then Omvistus starts fiddling with his target painter and begins droning on about antimatter from above, as if that will suddenly make a six-hour evacuation more possible.
Why does he bother? Why doesn't he simply say something along the lines of "I don't give a shit about your demands, dirtling. The space port components are dropping in six hours, and that's the window of time you have. If there are still people there in six hours, then my space ports are going to land on top of them. Too bad, so sad. Deal with it or don't deal with it, I don't care either way."
If you're driving a bulldozer towards somebody's home, and said person runs out and begins to holler at you to stop the bulldozer long enough for him to get his shit out of the house, you don't need to wave a gun in his face in order to be an ass and have your way. All you need to do is to simply ignore the guy and not stop the bulldozer.
I'm just saying. :P
-
As an aside, can anyone explain to me what in all the world the rationale behind Omvistus' threat of orbital bombardment was? Because I'm not seeing it.
Let's see. He tells Yvesk the spaceport components will be dropped in six hours. Yvesk retorts that evacuating people will take a week, and demands more time. Then Omvistus starts fiddling with his target painter and begins droning on about antimatter from above, as if that will suddenly make a six-hour evacuation more possible.
Why does he bother? Why doesn't he simply say something along the lines of "I don't give a shit about your demands, dirtling. The space port components are dropping in six hours, and that's the window of time you have. If there are still people there in six hours, then my space ports are going to land on top of them. Too bad, so sad. Deal with it or don't deal with it, I don't care either way."
If you're driving a bulldozer towards somebody's home, and said person runs out and begins to holler at you to stop the bulldozer long enough for him to get his shit out of the house, you don't need to wave a gun in his face in order to be an ass and have your way. All you need to do is to simply ignore the guy and not stop the bulldozer.
I'm just saying. :P
Domination. Just ignoring the yips from him and dumping them anyway sets you as some unknown quantity that can't be dealt with. Displaying a great deal more power, and a direct threat of a personal nature sets the stage for 'who is boss around here'. As the story told, the conversation went on a great deal longer than the end of the chronicle.
Omvistus simply opened their 'relationship' by setting Yvesk in his place, and thus set the stage for their entire relationship from there on out. It's simple domination mechanics.
-
Landing space ports on top of people doesn't show them who's boss? If you're powerful enough to be able to ignore the yips of the tram-traveling boss of a billion people (how the hell did a pushover like that manage to get that high anyway?), and if your "relationship" with him is going to be all about you taking whatever you want whenever you want, then you can just as well skip the "relationship" part altogether and move right on to the "taking all I want when I want" bit.
I suppose it does make a little bit of sense if Omvistus actually literally does get an erection out of tickling this 70-year old Gallentean First Among Pedestrians with his target painter. To each their own.
-
Actually, like the chronicle said, they spent the rest of the day talking. (Unless I recall incorrectly). To me this implies a working relationship. The dropships come in six hours, and first impressions and early domination is the key to establishing who's who in any relationship.
This means that unless mister planetbound submitted to the orders, he needed to be swatted down. Not wait six hours and then deal with his grief and rage. Raise your fist and watch them cower within the first few minutes of a conversation, and you may save yourself having to beat them two hours later.
-
It might be what Miz wrote, but extremely badly written. Or then just calculated to please the "omg I r so 1337" crowds by essentially re-hashing the new intro about how great the capsuleers are. I am still somewhat leaning on the later option. For one, people really don't fear what they don't see - so, the target painter was highly visible, but I'm not exactly convinced that a single display of asshattery would be enough to form a working relationship. Newton's third law and all that. (Force has a counter-force - people resist change.) Perhaps we'll later see more of Omvistus and his corp (um, Imperial Academy?) threatening some more to glass the planet after angry people who have lost their homes wreck a few factories. (Or riot against the guards.)
Depending on the interpretation, the capsuleer in question would be either
(1) A noob with 0 SP in the social category (Why he is negotiating for his corp, then? As a prank by more experienced capsuleers?)
(2) Someone with a serious tendency to go power-tripping. (Very appealing to lot of players.)
(3) Actually calculated act by someone experienced.
-
Actually, like the chronicle said, they spent the rest of the day talking. (Unless I recall incorrectly). To me this implies a working relationship. The dropships come in six hours, and first impressions and early domination is the key to establishing who's who in any relationship.
This means that unless mister planetbound submitted to the orders, he needed to be swatted down. Not wait six hours and then deal with his grief and rage. Raise your fist and watch them cower within the first few minutes of a conversation, and you may save yourself having to beat them two hours later.
I took is something along the lines of 'now that I've completely broken you, now we can talk' and then they hammered out an agreement of some sort wherein the Administrator sat there licking the boots of the capsuleer.
But that's not the problem with this article. The problem with this article is that it sets a precedent that doesn't make sense ingame, and has some disturbing consequences when taken to nth leve.
For instance, if its that easy to bombard a planet whats to stop me, 'hypothetical minmatar revolutionary" from flying their battleship into high orbit and telling Empress Sarum to suck it and turning Dam-Torzad into a big glassy spot? CONCORD won't respond until after I do it, at which point if you may not have noticed, the city is already gone.
The fact that Omvistus's arguement has any validity sets a precedent that says "we can completely flatten a world from above, and CONCORD will give us a slap on the wrist and blow up our ship."
It sets a precedent that the empire governments are impotent, and five of us could go around ransoming planetary governments not to reduce them to ash from 90 kilometers up. It sets a precedent that if we really wanted to destroy a government, then except for the Gallenteans hiding under the crystal boulevard, there isn't much that could be done to stop us, and frankly, none of it makes sense.
You don't just give away the sort of power that would render you impotent, you just don't do it, no government is that stupid.
So if capsuleers are this powerful and unstoppable, then why would the empires allow them to exist? I mean, even if Omvistus was totally talking out of his ass and didn't intend to do it, it still seems to set the precedent that if he wanted to do it, he could have. And therein lies the problem.
-
Eh, so very easy to handle with extremely little mental gymnastics. How about trying this one on for size manufactured in approximately 7.8 seconds after reading your post:
He didn't threaten a government. He threatened one piddly little planet in the ass end of space, from where any centralized government is sitting. He wasn't stupid. He knew he couldn't go and boss around a whole faction. He chose a planet which allowed him to set things up as he wanted it, as fast as he wanted it, without interference from powers actually capable of standing up to him and enforce it.
It sets no precedence other than what we already know. Capsuleers wield more power than pretty much anyone else in the galaxy, other than faction governments, and even that's slightly shaky. Nothing new under the sky, nor above it.
-
Pretty sure if I threatened to blow up Tolono, IL (population ~500) because I wanted to build a new factory there and they were being bitches about it, the FBI would have a few things they would like to discuss with me. Especially if I started running around town with a gun and pointing it at the mayor.
-
That's because you're nowhere near a capsuleer equivalent. Imagine if Tony Hayward or Erik Prince did that.
-
That's because you're nowhere near a capsuleer equivalent. Imagine if Tony Hayward or Erik Prince did that.
Pretty sure even if Bill Gates came to Tolono and started doing that the FBI would still want to talk to him. Not to mention that it would be the biggest media circus and public meltdown since like...ever.
-
And I'm fairly sure if I wanted to masturbate at the top of the churchspire while yelling profanities, heresy and blasphemy, I'd be dealt with.
That has about as much to do with Eve as your example did. Real life comparisons are moot, and quite frankly insulting the intelligence of Eve players in general. There's nothing common between real life humans, society and a capsuleer reality.
-
And I'm fairly sure if I wanted to masturbate at the top of the churchspire while yelling profanities, heresy and blasphemy, I'd be dealt with.
That has about as much to do with Eve as your example did. Real life comparisons are moot, and quite frankly insulting the intelligence of Eve players in general. There's nothing common between real life humans, society and a capsuleer reality.
In what way? Governments can't stand when they have no authority -- that's the whole idea of a government. Just because capsuleers are supposedly some transhumanist miracle (which I think is a little farfetched, considering that "freelance" capsuleers have supposedly only been around a grand total of seven years) does not change that fact.
-
Who says they don't have authority? They're choosing not to exercise their authority, because they know the consequences. Fuck with capsuleers, and they'll lose the massive benefits that they bring to the table, even compared to the headaches they cause. Sure, they'd get rid of the headaches, but they'd be back to square one, barely hopping along.
As far as I understood the PF, capsuleers have brought massive change to the 'larger picture' of the cluster. It only stands to reason capsuleers get some 'leeway'.
Concord and the various governments are fully capable of standing against the capsuleers. But why the hell would you shoot the goose that lay golden eggs, just because it has a habit of smacking the other geese upside the head sometimes?
And the same holds true for capsuleers, I'd imagine. It'd be downright stupid to pick a direct fight with the various factions in the game that are Concord supported, because they know that no matter what happens, everyone loses.
-
What, exactly, is the giant benefit of capsuleers when they start threatening to kill thousands of people on a whim and pushing governments around? They can be replaced -- maybe by something that won't be quite as good, but something that doesn't turn you into a political laughingstock is going to be a better alternative. If we could replace the US military with a giant robot that would protect us but randomly kill 500 people every other day, how long, exactly, do you think people would let the US keep the giant robot around? If this is "normal" behavior for a capsuleer, there's no way in hell it's sustainable, especially for a democratic regime.
Is the benefit that the capsuleers can kill swaths of Guristas all day? Guess what, if CONCORD can slaughter capsuleers left and right when it wants to for the slightest offense (like accidentally smartbombing a gate), I am guessing they can do a pretty good job on the Guristas if they put their mind to it.
-
I made the Tony Hayward and Erik Prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince) (former CEO of Blackwater) comparison intentionally, though the latter is probably far closer to what I have in mind.
Someone with direct connections to governments, providing significant paramilitary expertise and resources, and a history of openly defying mid-level governmental officials with occasions in which that's worked out for him.
Perhaps not the technical benefits, unless he's actually Tony Stark :P but there's at least an analogy to be drawn.
-
You'll notice that Tony hayward hasn't exactly done wonders for his image just by appearing insensitive and douchebaggy. I don't think actually threatening people with a gun would really be better. And yes, Blackwater can get away with acting like cowboys in Iraq, but notice that they have trouble getting away with anything close to that shit here (and they are currently under investigation for some..."shady" practices involving weapons here). No government can stand if you have thousands of people running around openly threatening the people supposedly under its "protection" -- that's the whole idea of an insurgency.
-
Please don't interpret my statements as defending Hayward or Prince. Lord knows that wasn't my intent (nor would it have been on-topic for this thread even were I to feel that way).
My point is that, at least on a given day, those things can occur without calling in a massive and immediate law enforcement response. At least, they can when undertaken by particularly powerful and connected individuals, rather than "normal" folks like you and I. That can of course lead to more serious consequences in the medium and long term, and the chronicle's scope simply doesn't indicate whether that occurs with Omvistus.
-
The chron challenged the reader to find explanation to such a setting. As Yoshito points, the fact the character exists ingame, it is part of the NPC school and does seem to have acquired capsuleer license just recently shows he is just "bluffing".
Kayleigh's comment on how CONCORD will just take action after the aggresion has been done with, also adds a very specific and important detail. CONCORD will not stop Capsuleers, CONCORD is a "deterrant" and will only act on confirmed aggresion.
So the final two variables here to take into account are, why a gallente world and why one on a frontier?
To straigthen things a bit, Chesiette is not at the frontier with the Amarr empire, it is the frontier with the Intaki Syndicate, which makes it a sort of "tortuga" hub for shady deals.
Yvesk is a representative (not a boss as someone implied) appointed by Federal Administration to help the locals in dealing with Capsuleers. Up until now he just used a chair as there was little if any at all interaction between planets and capsuleers.
The Federation is a democracy, local governments, senators, etc. Pursuing any kind of bureacracy here will take months. Any Federal prosecution by the people will take years.
Omvistus knows this, and have chosen Chesiette because his bluff could not be countered by any experienced officer, nor any real threat from the government would materialize in the short term.
Therefore, perfect execution of planetary domination, with a massive exchange of isk in favor of the planetary economy.
It could have been written better, yes, more polished, yes......but it is nonetheless one chron interesting to dissect.
-
Well, the problem is that again, the chronicle doesn't make it clear if this is an aberration or trend -- something I hate about a lot of the chronicles and news articles. If this is an aberration, I can sort of understand why the hammer of god did not immediately come down on him (though I can't see there being a six hour conversation afterward if the governor is stabbing the "NAVY COME HELP ASAP" button), but it also relatively useless from a world building point of view. If this is the kind of thing capsuleers can do every day, then it makes no sense whatsoever. The government can't simply stand back while it's authority is undermined at every turn.
And Bruno, stories shouldn't challenge the reader to do mental gymnastics to come up with weird reasoning to justify things that make no sense on the face of it (unless, I suppose, that's the entire point of the story -- but there is NO indication here, other than the fact that it makes no sense, that was the intent). If I'm writing a historical novel about 1500s Italy and halfway through someone whips out an AK47 and guns down the Pope, that's going to be a little jarring to say the least. I do not want Eve canon to descend to the depths of Star Wars fanboy wankery, thanks.
-
The chron explicitly states that Yvesk holds the highest position of authority on the entire planet. That does make him boss. If he weren't boss, then he couldn't be ordering large-scale evacuations at the drop of a hat. If he weren't boss, he couldn't make decisions regarding the development of the economy of the entire planet. In fact, if he weren't boss, he would be utterly useless to Omvistus in this particular scenario.
As regards killing (or pissing off) the goose that lays the golden egg: If you're sitting on top of a heap of resources, and there are potentially thousands of "geese" who'll be quarreling over who gets to roost there and exploit said resources, then you're not dependent on that one single flock of golden geese with the particularly shitty attitude. The "capsuleers are gods" meme is all well and good, but there's absolutely no reason to kowtow to the tantrums and demands of Ares if you can instead petition Athena to tell him to go fuck himself, and to set up shop in your town instead of him. There's a reason why gods like Ares never got anything sacrificed to them. People could get much better deals elsewhere.
The capsuleer "caste" is not unionized, in fact there's close to zero solidarity within it. It's nothing like "piss off one, piss off everyone". You snub one capsuleer, the rest of them are going to laugh in his face and take advantage of his misfortune. They're not going to shun you.
-
I tend to think that in general, we're in dangerous territory with capsuleers and their relative power/importance. This chron, and more specifically the reaction to it, serves to highlight the obvious dangers.
When Eve started, we were just pilots of spaceships. We had a certain edge over the normals in space, sure, but that was about it. We were captains of spaceships just trying to make our way in life. We couldn't make that much impact, and our place in the world made sense. If we got too uppity, CONCORD would smack us down.
OK, so CONCORD has always been a bit of an immersion-breaker, but we could deal with that as long as it wasn't dwelt on too much. Wave your hand, shrug and carry on.
Now, with the pod-pilot being consistently portrayed as near-godlike in terms of power and influence, I think we have a potential problem. I think it's a mistake conceptually to let pilots dick around with planets that are owned by the Empire factions. It doesn't make sense.
Once you start to say that people have all this power, then all the other ways that we can't actually exercise that supposed power start to become really noticeable. All those cracks that were papered over are suddenly gaping wide. Why can't we just blow up stations and gates with our cap ships? Why are CONCORD able to instantly spawn in numbers next to us when we can't do the same? Why can't we declare war on CONCORD and take them down? Why can't we simply overthrow whichever faction we please? Why can't we destroy gate guns? Why doesn't the security status change when a "safe" system is clearly dangerous? Why do thousands of enemies appear hourly in "safe" systems? Why can't I take ownership of Jita and everything in it? Why can't I bombard Dam Torsad from orbit and consequences be damned?
The biggest crack of all? Pod pilots themselves. They make no sense. Why would anyone create schools and fund the training of capsuleers at great expense and simply turn them loose? Who would hand over almost unlimited power to people with no return on that investment at all? Why would you set out to create a group of people that could threaten your planets?
The original game was essentially an Elite clone, and its design choices reflect that. I'm sure that the Empire-building options will please a lot of people, but because this is being bolted on piece-by-piece as an afterthought, it means that a lot of things no longer make much sense. If Eve had been built from the ground up as a territorial strategic sort of game, then mechanics and supporting backstory would have been very different from the outset. The worry for me is that the original vision for Eve, which was a strong one, is steadily being diluted by the enthusiastic newcomers who are all trying to make their own mark on the game.
-
Despite CCP Fallout's introduction, I would prefer to interpret the chronicle as Omvistus' power-trip daydream. It has many of the qualities of such.
If the story was "true", the implications to world consistency would indeed be somewhat problematic. That said, Eve canon is not always consistent with itself. And I believe most players familiar with Eve fiction have their "favourite" piece(s?) they would like to remove from canon. ;)
-
I have to say that from a story perspective, I would find capsuleers having to negotiate or having challenges to deal with more interesting - and incidentally, chock full of potential - than being able to just plop down the structures etc.
Obviously in either case there is going to be some abstraction. I think most of us can accept that game-world reality being different than what is actually on our screen, because concessions have to be made to it being a videogame.
I don't this we need an explanation of how PI works that fits in neatly with being able to drop structures everywhere, and I think contorting the fiction to fit the literal reality of playing the game makes for a much poorer backstory.
-
Capsuleers do have one redeeming feature as far as the Empires are concerned. Missioning running is, probably by a large margin, the main occupation in EVE, or at least one of the largest. Mission-running is basically bettering the factions, doing the dirty (and expensive) work they need to get done.
From the Empires' standpoint, "ok, fine, they kill each other in low sec and nullsec, and might make a nuisance of themselves from time to time, but damn if we dont have them on our mission running string, where they wipe out entire fleets for us."
That being said, its still silly, but perhaps it mitigates the silliness on some level.
-
Planet in question is in high-sec, so no redeeming factors apply. Just the fact that people have to come up with the most fantastic assumptions to explain the chron makes it bad in my view. When I read the chron nothing of that appeared in my head. Maybe you have to be native english speaker to "get" it, if so I'll stop reading chrons since I obviously have it all wrong anyway. :roll:
-
Planet in question is in high-sec, so no redeeming factors apply. Just the fact that people have to come up with the most fantastic assumptions to explain the chron makes it bad in my view. When I read the chron nothing of that appeared in my head. Maybe you have to be native english speaker to "get" it, if so I'll stop reading chrons since I obviously have it all wrong anyway. :roll:
That's not it...I'm a native English speaker and I share your opinion pretty much, Akikio. :)