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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Aria Jenneth on 12 Apr 2015, 16:38

Title: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 12 Apr 2015, 16:38
So someone (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5660541#post5660541) recently let slip that the ability to enjoy kresh products might not be quite so exclusive as some Caldari might let on.

Naturally, this has a certain pair of halfbloods all eager to get confirmation and maybe give that taste of mortality a try.

Confirmations? Denials? Discussion?

It does seem as though, if true, this would be something the Caldari would keep kinda-sorta quiet. Can't have a bunch of bloody Gallente with a Caldari ancestor somewhere in the family tree all (getting themselves genetically tested, then) going and slurping up kresh like it weren't no thang.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Vikarion on 12 Apr 2015, 17:24
The most PF I've been able to find on it is this: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tea#Caldari (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tea#Caldari)

From that, it appears that whether Kresh tea is fatal to a Caldari depends on its strength and how it is prepared. In the Tea Maker Ceremony, if a person survives the poisonous preparation of the tea, then they are divinely favored.

The player created fiction on the subject has a long history of alleging that it will kill non-Caldari, however, the Tea article states that traditions based around tea had a part in forging a strong bond between the Achura and Caldari.

There's some player-made fiction here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Four_questions (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Four_questions)

So I would guess that there's some wiggle-room between "instantly fatal" and "harmless". For someone half-Caldari, assuming that they don't go for full Tea Maker Ceremony strength, they'd probably be fine. Perhaps a bit of numbness around the lips and extremities.

Oh, and the necessity of exact preparation would keep most Gallente from attempting to drink it. That, and the fact that it's apparently like black tea in taste, except turned up to 11.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Kyoko Sakoda on 12 Apr 2015, 17:25
I've always chalked it up to 50% cultural myth, 50% truth. Mostly because I'm not sure where to find resources on the general idea.

Because of my ambivalence about it I've treated it a bit like lactose intolerance.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 12 Apr 2015, 17:52
Hm. We had a fairly extensive discussion of kresh, once upon a time. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4675.0) I still like a lot of the conclusions we came up with.

We never did get into the genetics of the resistance, tho.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Elmund Egivand on 12 Apr 2015, 19:28
Kresh is space fugu in leaf form. Why does any sane person want to partake in that willingly?
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 12 Apr 2015, 19:59
That, and the fact that it's apparently like black tea in taste, except turned up to 11.

This would actually attract Morwen to it, speaking for myself... xD
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 12 Apr 2015, 22:37
Kresh is space fugu in leaf form. Why does any sane person want to partake in that willingly?

Partly it's to thumb our noses conceptually at all the pureblooded Civire and Deteis who've sneered at us over the years (real or, in Aria's case, mostly imagined) (she did get sneered at; she just doesn't remember it. Also, in reality, it was mostly pureblooded Achura).

Partly it's to join those self-same Civire and Deteis in the experience of sipping potential death from a cup. A certain amount of cultural self-respect is tied up in the act, as being able to face kresh is something only "real Caldari" can do.

Also, Aria's faced a couple incidents of immediate, personal danger in her kinda-sorta couple months of life, and (while she wasn't especially called to) didn't act especially effectively. In one case, she more or less locked up; in the other, rescue arrived before she could do anything / be required to do anything more daring than radioing for help.

The latter situation had her trying to figure out how to use an Amarrian sidearm while Blood Raiders cut through the door onto the war barge bridge she was on. She wasn't sure at the time whether the gun was going to be for them or for herself. The experience traumatized her enough that she essentially holed up in the SFRIM living quarters for a couple weeks after. She's still having nightmares.

A nasty little voice in her head has started calling her a coward, which erodes her confidence. It's not going to shut up until she faces death without cringing at least once, and kresh is far and away the least hazardous of her options.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Vikarion on 12 Apr 2015, 22:42
Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 12 Apr 2015, 23:02
Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.

Eh. We're essentially worldbuilding, so there's only so far the PF and existing theorycraft will carry us.

If you or anyone else happens to know much about how resistances or vulnerabilities to certain things (toxins, alcohol, etc.) tend to work in heredity, that would be something.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 12 Apr 2015, 23:31

The latter situation had her trying to figure out how to use an Amarrian sidearm while Blood Raiders cut through the door onto the war barge bridge she was on. She wasn't sure at the time whether the gun was going to be for them or for herself. The experience traumatized her enough that she essentially holed up in the SFRIM living quarters for a couple weeks after. She's still having nightmares.

That sounds interesting
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Zenariae on 13 Apr 2015, 02:53
Mithridatism? Perhaps a resistance could be built slowly over time to the toxins in Kresh in the same way a resistance to snake or spider venom can be achieved if exposed to it often and in small enough doses? Full blood Caldari may have developed this resistance over time through exposure during their history and now carry it as a genetic mutation? My two cents worth.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Lyn Farel on 13 Apr 2015, 04:14
Probably. Which would also mean that anyone drinking it in small proportions, increasing the dosage everytime, and doing that everyday, would start to develop a resistance to it. That's an interesting take on it. =)

In any case... this thread is exactly about what I hate with CCP's lore. Most the time it's kept extremely vague so that people can ICly argue over it or whatever. Ok fine, but every time it also puts people in that exact situation, creates OOC conflicts, or even worse, people bullshiting all over ICly to impose their view on others.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 13 Apr 2015, 05:52
Immunity to certain toxics can be built up over time by taking incremental doses, but there is also evidence to suggest genetic resistance can help through the process of natural selection (those with better genes for flushing out toxins survive drinking polluted water better)

Here's a couple of real world examples
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-10/17/genetic-immunity-to-arsenic

And while it relates to mice this article, it hints at the possibility that resistance genes might well be dominant rather then recessive when crossing species, and in our case races

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14462733

I'm of the view that resistance could in theory be obtained by consuming tiny amounts of kresh, and that one can also possess ethnic Caldari dominant genes to better flush out toxins, but the fact no one in the State wants to suggest it's possible has left the notion only full Caldari can drink it properly. The idea that the 'pure' Caldari would want to keep this hush hush is too delicious a concept to turn down.

As a side note while heavily diluting the tea down so that anyone could drink it is a possibility, i think atleast from Utari's point of view he wouldn't accept anything less then the fully monty (the same dose that one would drink at the coming of age ceremonies) I'm not 100% sure about Aria's IC view point on how big an impact being able to drink kresh is, but again for Utari if it happens it will have huge ramifications on how he views his Civire ethnicity.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: purple on 13 Apr 2015, 07:35
Hamish is a Tea-Maker and a half Intaki from Kamokor IV.   I've always RP'd that it's up to the Maker to determine if the Tea is lethal, and that pills, nanites or pills with nanites and space magic exist to neutralize the poison.

He frequently recommends the pills to Achurians but doesn't use it himself.   He ritually drinks Hak'len before and after combat as a way of keep him from becoming numb to mass killing and as a punishment for taking lives. 

This is especially true for ship losses, where it's not just a punishment for failing to protect his crew but is an homage to them.  This has led to more than a few instances of Hamish's majordomo having  to perform an emergency jump clone on him.

TLDR?  It's your character, do what you want.

Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 13 Apr 2015, 07:43
TLDR?  It's your character, do what you want.

Only (1) Aria has an authenticity hangup related to her commitment to personal integrity; (2) it's fun either way; (3) we have a chance to build some quasi-canon here.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: purple on 13 Apr 2015, 07:45
Also, this seems like an excuse to introduce you heathens to lindybeige:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ClQXwkkH8A

If his theory is true, there should be planets from other races homeworlds that the would be poisonous to Caldari but not the natives.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Tabor Murn on 13 Apr 2015, 08:40
Maybe that's why Amarr don't like walnuts?
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 13 Apr 2015, 08:47
Maybe that's why Amarr don't like walnuts?

Or walnuts could just remind them a bit too much of wrinkly old testicles...
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 13 Apr 2015, 09:20
I'd imagine all sorts of magic nanites or antidotes for people who want to consume all sorts of things safely, but that of course defeats the purpose of the tea, unless one is faking being Caldari for some reason (surgically altered infiltrators activate!)

If you remember that scene from Breaking Bad where Gustavo poisons 10 people while drinking the poison himself, I can imagine a similar situation with a temporary antidote.

Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Pieter Tuulinen on 13 Apr 2015, 09:26
The only reason the Caldari went through the slow process of acclimation to Kresh is because it was the only green plant that actually survived the worst of the Caldari Prime winters - according to stuff I've read. For that reason, being able to tolerate the particular neurotoxin in Kresh was such a pro-survival trait that Caldari who had the ability seem to have bred out those who didn't.

The Kresh tea that Caldari drink in toasts is made very differently from the Kresh tea that Caldari drink for suicide - but regular Kresh tea still contains sufficient neurotoxin that it kills non-Caldari if they drink enough (four doses was suggested in the semi-official canon). The corrolary is that sufficient Kresh tea, even properly made, will kill a Pure blooded Caldari - there is NO immunity, simply an acquired tolerance.

Back when Pyre was more of a Caldari corp and less of a grab bag of monstrosities, players who joined and wanted to RP sometimes used to go through a welcoming tea ceremony. Pieter would supply enzyme pills to allow those who weren't Caldari to temporarily metabolise the Kresh toxin safely - that was entirely made up on my part, but nobody ever complained.

How do we treat Kresh tolerance in halfbloods? There are two basic ways that make sense. The first is to say that Kresh tolerance is an on/off production of a certain enzyme or bacteria - people either have it or they don't and having it gives you the higher tolerance that is canon for native Caldari. The second is to say that Kresh tolerance is a sliding scale, with standard humans tolerant at the 1-4 cup scale and regular Caldari tolerant at the 10-20 cup scale (for example). A Half-breed, therefore, might be tolerant at the 5.5 - 10 cup scale.

I think the second model is probably the best one, due to the following assumptions:

1. Kresh was clearly not uniformly toxic to the native Caldari from the start. Enough people survived eating/drinking Kresh products that doing so became a survival trait.

2. If 1 is true it can be assumed that there are people of other races who have Kresh tolerance simply through the vagaries of chance. Since the trait would not have been selected for, it will be very rare, of course and most will not even know it. Those who are tolerant will probably be roughly as tolerant as a half-breed.

3. Since it is genetic, according to canon, you can bet your ass that Caldari who get their children's genetic profile tweaked will make sure that their Kresh tolerance is pegged at the upper end of the limit, since tolerance to Kresh is the sign of a 'true' Caldari.

4. Given the unholy joy that non-Caldari RPers take in flouting Kresh toxicity, it's almost certain that non-Caldari capsuleers could and would tweak themselves for Kresh tolerance just so they can walk into a prole bar and order Kresh vodka.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: purple on 13 Apr 2015, 10:25
we have a chance to build some quasi-canon here.

Some stuff i made up:

Hamish's own brand of Hak'len wine from his private Kresh orchards:
(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/360/e/a/Suvala_Brand_Hak__len_by_Johnnygeeksheek.jpg)

Quote
Krekaa –A pomace brandy produced by fermentation and distillation of the Kresh grapes’ skins, seeds, and stems that remain after the grapes have been pressed and it’s juices extracted during the production of Hak’len wine.  It was originally made to prevent waste by using leftovers at the end of the season.   The flavor of Krekaa, like that of Hak’Len wine, depends on the type and quality of the Kresh grapes used as well as the specifics of the distillation process.  Unline Hak'len wine brandy most Krekaa variations are not aged before bottling and thus are typically clear and colorless.
(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/360/0/b/Krekaa_by_Johnnygeeksheek.jpg)

Quote
Kresh brandy is a spirit produced by distilling Hak’len wine and aged in kresh wood casks. The Hak’lan brandy maker's objective is to capture the alcohol and agreeable aromas of the kresh grape, and leave all of the off-tastes and bitter chemicals behind in the waste water. Making Hak’len brandy is an art that balances the requirement to remove the undesirable flavors with the necessity of preserving the character of  kresh.  Some Hak’len brandy makers double distill their brandy, meaning it they concentrate the alcohol twice leaving the final alcohol content around 71%.  However, with a single distillation and thus  lower  alcohol content,  more of the underlying flavors will remain in the brandy.   This means a much greater chance that off flavors will also make their way into the final product.   

The brandy is not yet ready to drink after distillation it must first be placed in kresh wood casks and allowed to age, an important step in the production process.  Most Hak’len brandy consumed today is less than six years old. However, some finer Hak’len brandies are aged for more than 50 years .  As the brandy ages, it absorbs flavors from the kresh wood while its own structure softens, becoming less astringent. Through evaporation, brandy will lose about 1% of its alcohol per year for the first 50 years or so it is in the cask.    The largest mass producer of Hak’len brandy is Wiyrkomi, and capsuleers may find top shelf Hak’len brandy for sale at Wiyrkomi stations listed on the SCC market as ‘Spirits.’
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/360/5/e/Suvala_Advert_by_Johnnygeeksheek.jpg)

And so the Achurian's weren't left out:
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2009/360/7/4/Achura_Plum_Brandy_by_Johnnygeeksheek.jpg)

Next time you're in Caldari space, check the spirit's market and note the station.   It'll be Wiyrkomi.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Louella Dougans on 13 Apr 2015, 11:35
chance mutations, recessive genes, Caldari salivary glands and/or pancreas produce one or more extra enzymes, which happens to neutralise the toxic component of Kresh leaves, turns it into some other substance that is non-toxic.

if you go with salivary glands producing enzyme A, that turns Kresh toxin into substance X (less toxic), and pancreas producing enzyme B, that turns substance X into entirely harmless molecules, as well as enzyme C that turns Kresh toxin directly into harmless molecules, then it means that full-Caldari people have all 6 genes to fully digest Kresh, and can do so at a high concentration, because of the simultaneous action of the A+B enzymes and the C enzyme. Still possible to overload the reaction with a sufficient concentration of Kresh toxin.

A half-Caldari person might be lucky, and their non-caldari parent has a gene that allows producing of either enzyme A or C, making the Kresh drinkable. If they only have enzyme A, then they might be ill, but not severely. They couldn't drink it at a high concentration, because they only have one of the necessary enzyme reactions.

Make the mutation that allows the salivary gland to produce enzyme A fairly common, and the mutations that allow the pancreas to produce B and C less common, then most of the original Caldari Prime population could drink the Kresh at a low concentration, because of being able to produce A, with a few lucky people being able to drink it with no effect, because they produce B or C as well.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: purple on 13 Apr 2015, 11:43
(http://7770647a14b0867efc75-b939f832d8cd9c860ce8909163419528.r92.cf2.rackcdn.com/354702.jpg)
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Quintrala on 13 Apr 2015, 20:12
(http://www.rationalsurvivability.com/blog/wp-content/media/2009/10/vizzini-300x222.jpg)
(Kresh-intolerant individual)

Vizzini: Because Kresh comes from Caldari Prime, as everyone knows, and Caldari Prime is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

[Drinks, dies]

Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to Kresh.




On a different note, I think the Kresh wine pics are awesome! They are very well done, feel real and modern too. Wine is part of culture and these just convey this perfectly  :)

Q
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Vikarion on 13 Apr 2015, 20:51
Hamish, that is awesome. Very awesome.  :D
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Utari Onzo on 14 Apr 2015, 10:29
chance mutations, recessive genes, Caldari salivary glands and/or pancreas produce one or more extra enzymes, which happens to neutralise the toxic component of Kresh leaves, turns it into some other substance that is non-toxic.

if you go with salivary glands producing enzyme A, that turns Kresh toxin into substance X (less toxic), and pancreas producing enzyme B, that turns substance X into entirely harmless molecules, as well as enzyme C that turns Kresh toxin directly into harmless molecules, then it means that full-Caldari people have all 6 genes to fully digest Kresh, and can do so at a high concentration, because of the simultaneous action of the A+B enzymes and the C enzyme. Still possible to overload the reaction with a sufficient concentration of Kresh toxin.

A half-Caldari person might be lucky, and their non-caldari parent has a gene that allows producing of either enzyme A or C, making the Kresh drinkable. If they only have enzyme A, then they might be ill, but not severely. They couldn't drink it at a high concentration, because they only have one of the necessary enzyme reactions.

Make the mutation that allows the salivary gland to produce enzyme A fairly common, and the mutations that allow the pancreas to produce B and C less common, then most of the original Caldari Prime population could drink the Kresh at a low concentration, because of being able to produce A, with a few lucky people being able to drink it with no effect, because they produce B or C as well.

Hmm, I like the novelty of this approach, especially considering the fact that the AS3MT example I gave works by 'catalysing' arsenic. Basically, it allows the body to 'metabolise' it before the toxin can cause harm in its base state. A similar gene function could be applied to metabolising the paralytic causing compounds in kresh. This basically means you can drink up to a certain limit of kresh (or specifically the toxin that causes paralysis), as much as your body can metabolise in a given time, but just like with alcohol too much too soon will still kill you.

SCIENCE LINKY: http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=AS3MT

In this regards, I'd like to propose the following for criticism/discussion.

The Ethnic Caldari carry in them a combination of dominant and recessive genes which combined allow for the metabolism of kresh and its toxin. These genes relate to general cell metobolic functions helping to catalyse the toxin in the short term and liver/kidney function which serve for help flush out the remaining toxic compounds. This establishes an upper limit for all, with those having the 'full collection' of genes having the highest level of natural resistance.. Half breeds would inherite the dominant genes giving them some amount of kresh resistance (perhaps a more dilluted version of the tea) but it's a roll of the dice if they get some, or all, of the reccessive genes too.

I propose that the genes for cell function be of the dominant type, since they relate to short term toxicity resistance, and genes towards liver/kidney function be recessive.

TL;DR This is a combination of Pieter's sliding scale idea with some psuedo science shoved in to give half breeds a rare 'chance' of having higher, ethnic Caldari resistance.

EDIT:

That's the science part I propose as being the where/what ifs of physically drinking kresh, I'd like to hazard a guess at assuming the reasons Caldari don't let anyone, even half bloods, drink would be because the majority of Caldari culture is bent towards reinforcing itself? By that I mean you can only partake in certain customs if you're fully ethnic Civire/Deteis because we want to promote ethnic hemogony to keep stability within the nation?

IDK I'm just guessing here I think Pieter would do a better job here as my Caldari lore skills suck.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Pieter Tuulinen on 14 Apr 2015, 11:39
Caldari culture is, of course, very much of the 'circled wagons' mentality. It has survived for centuries as a completely separate culture within or next to the Federation, of course, so it has had to be! :)

Kresh tea and the whole "hak'len" toast dates back to the war - as such, I think they'd be very unhappy at foreigners trying to butt into something that's so much a part of the culture. So significant a proportion of foreigners who try get killed that I imagine the story is that all non-Caldari who try perish but, if you think about it, Russian roulette has only a 1:6 chance of killing and THAT'S viewed as virtual suicide.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Jace on 14 Apr 2015, 19:16
One of the difficulties with this sort of topic in Caldari PF is that the earlier style of Caldari lore is somewhat different than the later revisions and additions. The earlier Caldari PF has many references to the divine (such as that tea article); the later PF strongly implies that Caldari spirituality is largely metaphorical and that it is more philosophical than divine. People just have to do it their way with people that jive well with that way.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Vikarion on 14 Apr 2015, 19:58
One of the difficulties with this sort of topic in Caldari PF is that the earlier style of Caldari lore is somewhat different than the later revisions and additions. The earlier Caldari PF has many references to the divine (such as that tea article); the later PF strongly implies that Caldari spirituality is largely metaphorical and that it is more philosophical than divine. People just have to do it their way with people that jive well with that way.

EvE Source sorta tries to reconcile that by stating that the Caldari are almost entirely atheistic, but also have a great love of tradition, aphorisms, proverbs, and so forth. So, for a Caldari, it is probably entirely within her mental model of the world to claim that there is nothing actually supernatural, and then go engage in a contemplation of the divine nature of the Kresh tree. In her case, it would not be divine in the sense of being a god, but in the sense of being imbued with meaning by past generations of Caldari, and embodying other divine attributes (beautiful but dangerous, bitter but strong, etc) that might give her reason to show respect and admiration for the entire conceptual image of the Kresh tree, as both symbol and embodiment.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Jace on 14 Apr 2015, 20:08
One of the difficulties with this sort of topic in Caldari PF is that the earlier style of Caldari lore is somewhat different than the later revisions and additions. The earlier Caldari PF has many references to the divine (such as that tea article); the later PF strongly implies that Caldari spirituality is largely metaphorical and that it is more philosophical than divine. People just have to do it their way with people that jive well with that way.

EvE Source sorta tries to reconcile that by stating that the Caldari are almost entirely atheistic, but also have a great love of tradition, aphorisms, proverbs, and so forth. So, for a Caldari, it is probably entirely within her mental model of the world to claim that there is nothing actually supernatural, and then go engage in a contemplation of the divine nature of the Kresh tree. In her case, it would not be divine in the sense of being a god, but in the sense of being imbued with meaning by past generations of Caldari, and embodying other divine attributes (beautiful but dangerous, bitter but strong, etc) that might give her reason to show respect and admiration for the entire conceptual image of the Kresh tree, as both symbol and embodiment.

I agree.

Edit: I just realized that may have sounded curt. I personally am of the opinion that the Caldari section of Source sorted through many of these issues and inconsistencies very well. So I do actually agree. =)
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Vikarion on 14 Apr 2015, 20:16
One of the difficulties with this sort of topic in Caldari PF is that the earlier style of Caldari lore is somewhat different than the later revisions and additions. The earlier Caldari PF has many references to the divine (such as that tea article); the later PF strongly implies that Caldari spirituality is largely metaphorical and that it is more philosophical than divine. People just have to do it their way with people that jive well with that way.

EvE Source sorta tries to reconcile that by stating that the Caldari are almost entirely atheistic, but also have a great love of tradition, aphorisms, proverbs, and so forth. So, for a Caldari, it is probably entirely within her mental model of the world to claim that there is nothing actually supernatural, and then go engage in a contemplation of the divine nature of the Kresh tree. In her case, it would not be divine in the sense of being a god, but in the sense of being imbued with meaning by past generations of Caldari, and embodying other divine attributes (beautiful but dangerous, bitter but strong, etc) that might give her reason to show respect and admiration for the entire conceptual image of the Kresh tree, as both symbol and embodiment.

I agree.

Edit: I just realized that may have sounded curt. I personally am of the opinion that the Caldari section of Source sorted through many of these issues and inconsistencies very well. So I do actually agree. =)

 :D

I do actually like much of EvE:Source. Basically, most of what didn't relate to the Federation (where it went straight to Author-Tract/Anvil-Dropping/Mary-Sue-Nation much of the time) was both interesting and good. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone not to buy it. It also has some beautiful artwork.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 15 Apr 2015, 08:25
The Ethnic Caldari carry in them a combination of dominant and recessive genes which combined allow for the metabolism of kresh and its toxin. These genes relate to general cell metobolic functions helping to catalyse the toxin in the short term and liver/kidney function which serve for help flush out the remaining toxic compounds. This establishes an upper limit for all, with those having the 'full collection' of genes having the highest level of natural resistance.. Half breeds would inherite the dominant genes giving them some amount of kresh resistance (perhaps a more dilluted version of the tea) but it's a roll of the dice if they get some, or all, of the reccessive genes too.

If I understand the way recessive genes work, for them to activate they'd need to come from both parents. This works if the non-Caldari parent also has some Caldari blood, or if the trait appears elsewhere at random.

It might work for Utari; it probably doesn't work for Aria, whose mother's family is proudly pureblood Achura.

Which might give us our answer right there.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Arkon Sarain on 15 Apr 2015, 08:37
If I understand the way recessive genes work, for them to activate they'd need to come from both parents. This works if the non-Caldari parent also has some Caldari blood, or if the trait appears elsewhere at random.

I will just chime in to say that while dominant and recessive inheritance are useful for predicting the probability of an individual inheriting certain phenotypes, especially genetic disorders. When it comes to understanding how a gene specifies a trait things get a lot more confusing.

This is partly a result of the fact that we observed dominant and recessive inheritance patterns before we knew anything about DNA and genes - eye colour or hair colour can be seen and described as dominant or recessive without needing to understand DNA and genetics.

So there is no universal mechanism by which dominant and recessive alleles (a variant form of a gene) act. Dominant alleles do not "repress" recessive alleles. Indeed whether an allele is dominant or recessive depends on the particulars of the proteins they code for.

Further the terms can also be subjective. The same allele can be considered dominant or recessive, depending on how you look at it. Sickle-cell allele is a brilliant example of this.

So personally I think there is plenty of basis for individuals who are not "pure" Caldari being able to drink Kresh, particularly if they have a Caldari parent or even an ancestor at some point in their family. :)

That's just my thoughts on it anyways :D

-A
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Lyn Farel on 15 Apr 2015, 08:49
As Lou pointed out it becomes a lot more complex when multiple genes are linked to a specific phenotype. Some might be recessive, and some other dominant.

In any case, in all those ideas, it all pertains to genetic penetrance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetrance).
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Ursa Dropsus on 15 Apr 2015, 10:08
If I understand the way recessive genes work, for them to activate they'd need to come from both parents. This works if the non-Caldari parent also has some Caldari blood, or if the trait appears elsewhere at random.

Another possibility, albeit an extremely rare one in our own biology, is Y-linked recessive traits passed from a father to son. The trait sits on the Y chromosome and is passed on by the one parent, in that case. Of course, since this would limit Kresh drinking to males only, something which is observably not the case, this whole post serves no purpose other than to show off that I've been listening in Biology class...

Another more useful possibility for consideration is the idea of incomplete dominance. In that case, someone could be heterozygous dominant (Aa), where the little "a" represents the Kresh-digesting enzyme (or whatever) and yet the recessive gene could still be partially expressed (still capable of limited enzyme production and therefore limited digestion). In practical terms they might not be able to smash a whole bottle, but they also won't die from a little sip. In that possible scenario, the recessive genes can come from just one parent and yet still be expressed.

The only reason the Caldari went through the slow process of acclimation to Kresh is because it was the only green plant that actually survived the worst of the Caldari Prime winters - according to stuff I've read. For that reason, being able to tolerate the particular neurotoxin in Kresh was such a pro-survival trait that Caldari who had the ability seem to have bred out those who didn't.

Fascinating stuff. It reminds me of lactose intolerance, actually, which evolved in Anglo/Euro societies where there was a selective advantage to having the lactase enzyme. Meanwhile, in Africa where cows weren't domesticated, most never evolved it. Maybe a tall glass of cold milk is the Englishmen's version of Kresh. :P
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Pieter Tuulinen on 15 Apr 2015, 12:26
Again, I'm sure I read somewhere that sufficient of even properly prepared Kresh means that even ethnic Caldari shouldn't consume it carelessly.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Kyoko Sakoda on 15 Apr 2015, 17:28
Again, I'm sure I read somewhere that sufficient of even properly prepared Kresh means that even ethnic Caldari shouldn't consume it carelessly.

There would be no reason for this not to be true. Too much of anything has an LD50.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Pieter Tuulinen on 15 Apr 2015, 23:37
I suppose we could look at alcohol as a direct equivalent. Just because Native Americans react very poorly to alcohol compared to Europeans doesn't mean people in Sweden can drink two litres of Absolut Vodka with impunity.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Jace on 16 Apr 2015, 05:35
I suppose we could look at alcohol as a direct equivalent. Just because Native Americans react very poorly to alcohol compared to Europeans doesn't mean people in Sweden can drink two litres of Absolut Vodka with impunity.

I'm fairly certain they can. That's how they come up with all that Scandi Noir stuff.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Pieter Tuulinen on 16 Apr 2015, 08:49
I'd call that a consequence. ;)
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Jekaterine on 16 Apr 2015, 09:22
I suppose we could look at alcohol as a direct equivalent. Just because Native Americans react very poorly to alcohol compared to Europeans doesn't mean people in Sweden can drink two litres of Absolut Vodka with impunity.

I'm fairly certain they can. That's how they come up with all that Scandi Noir stuff.

We have to out of necessity.
How else to survive the long cold winters?
It's like the Unterzee around here for 6-8 months of the year.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Jace on 16 Apr 2015, 09:58
I suppose we could look at alcohol as a direct equivalent. Just because Native Americans react very poorly to alcohol compared to Europeans doesn't mean people in Sweden can drink two litres of Absolut Vodka with impunity.

I'm fairly certain they can. That's how they come up with all that Scandi Noir stuff.

We have to out of necessity.
How else to survive the long cold winters?
It's like the Unterzee around here for 6-8 months of the year.

Yus, I remember visiting during that time. It was a bit surreal.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Pieter Tuulinen on 16 Apr 2015, 11:15
I remember producing for a team in Sweden. I remember the lead programmer breaking both his wrists playing vodka fuelled hockey at 4am in the Summer because it was still light out.

Sweden. Y U do dis?
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Elmund Egivand on 16 Apr 2015, 19:42
I suppose we could look at alcohol as a direct equivalent. Just because Native Americans react very poorly to alcohol compared to Europeans doesn't mean people in Sweden can drink two litres of Absolut Vodka with impunity.

I'm fairly certain they can. That's how they come up with all that Scandi Noir stuff.

We have to out of necessity.
How else to survive the long cold winters?
It's like the Unterzee around here for 6-8 months of the year.

You are chased by living icebergs for 6-8 months a year?
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Ollie on 01 May 2015, 05:02
My predominantly Gallente blooded main can drink Kresh just fine. But that's less about biology and more about technology I suspect.  ;)
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Lyn Farel on 16 May 2015, 13:57
Ok, necroing that thread because... After speaking with some people, they pointed at me that nowhere in PF it is stated that kresh tea is actually poisonous, at least to non caldari... It is true that I am unable to find anything like that. The only thing I can find is that this tea is strong and bitter, almost of a bad taste to most outsiders. Considering that Intaki sweet tea is actually the one that can be poisonous when not cured, and nothing is mentioned about the kresh tea in that regards, it tends to further make me a bit suspicious of kresh tea actually being poisonous...

Is there any mention that it is ? Is it a player thing ? I may have missed something, so please bear with me...

Relevant article (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tea)
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Vizage on 17 May 2015, 11:00
The only instance I can find of any mention of Kresh actually being the poison itself (instead of an additional poison being introduced during a Tea Maker Ceremony) is in player created fiction by Herko Kerghans called  Four Questions  (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Four_questions).

Perhaps you are onto something Lyn.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 17 May 2015, 11:11
As I understand it (and may be repeating stuff already covered earlier in this thread), Kresh being the toxic element itself may have originally been just player fiction from Herko but it was something that became widely accepted among the roleplayers back then that it was considered canon.

I suspect what happened is that the official lore back then did not discount the possibility but that the lore has since changed in a manner that implies that the player fiction is no longer as plausible a possibility as it once was.
Title: Re: Kresh failing to kill halfbloods?
Post by: Lyn Farel on 17 May 2015, 12:26
I see... That changes a lot of things.

The dangers of high scale (high risk) world building...