Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: purple on 26 Mar 2015, 09:10
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[mod]This is a new thread split off from the Amarr one (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=6569.0) for being off topic. The changes made are to the title and my mod message.[/mod]
There's something more. I believe that the Empire follows the model of slavery that is based on the Classical system, not on the Chattel system.
So many RPers seem to forget this, but then I guess that may be because it's not reinforced often enough in the PF. People hear the word slavery, jump to conclusions and then ignore the few bits PF to the contrary even if there isn't much to support their assumptions either.
When I come across Amarrian characters twirling their mustaches and gloating over how many slaves they beat, or the much more common frothing-at-the-mouth rabid Minmatar freedom figher it's actually fairly immersion breaking. We as players may not get poked with this fact very often, but to our characters who live in this world...well they would.
They'd be very likely aware of the fact that in general Amarrian 'slaves' probably have a much better quality of life and sense of choice and personal freedom than an average joe Republic citizen. A concerned Minamatar would have much reason to get all rapid and frothy over the conditions, and numbers of Minmatar in Federation slums rather than launch artillery shells in direction of Amarrian slaves who are content were they are and would rather not be collateral damage.
Those minmatar in the Federation are also having their tribal roots culturally indoctrinated out of them (and probably much more effectively) they live in extreme poverty and squalor - and thus have so little freedom of choice that they 'choose' to become cannon fodder for the Federal Navy in droves. All so the ethnic Gallante don't have to risk their own children.
It's also fairly likely that a person with the abilities and resources of capusleer would catch on that the places were chattel style slavery does exits are among the pirate factions and Federation low-sec. A reasonable capsuleer actually living in a real New Eden should know that humanitarians would do more net good for the cause of freedom by rescuing little Minmatar and Intaki boys and girls from Federal pleasure hubs or building commercial infrastructure in the Republic than waging war on the Empire.
Sure cultural indoctrination and propaganda etc could keep a person from seeing the truth. However, how susceptible to a baseliner originated disinformation campaign would a hyper-intelligent transhuman infomorph possessing extensive training in psychology and a super-human willpower be?
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This. Thank you.
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Pardon me for being blunt, but that seems like an very biased perception of the PF. There's virtually nothing written about slavery in Gallente space, nothing remotely as in-depth as you are saying about Minmatar in the Federation, or any sort of comparison between the quality of life for an average Amarrian slave as opposed to a random Republic citizen.
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Pardon me for being blunt, but that seems like an very biased perception of the PF. There's virtually nothing written about slavery in Gallente space, nothing remotely as in-depth as you are saying about Minmatar in the Federation, or any sort of comparison between the quality of life for an average Amarrian slave as opposed to a random Republic citizen.
I was 100% sure someone would say this. It's OOCly found in bread crumbs all over the place, not easy to find by a player - but in a real New Eden, if you were a transhuman, it'd be in your face.
Plus, Eve fiction is a lot like legacy code. The CCP people come and go and their works are often directly contradict each other.
But this does lead to an interesting phenomenon: You have New Eden as it seems on the surface, which you get from a first pass of the faction overviews etc. Then little bits that you pick up on over the years that suggest New Eden might not be what you first thought.
It's, I imagine, similar to a baseliners journey to transhuman. Which is really cool - but most definitely not intentional by CCP. Even if it was, most people don't have the ability to see the pattern or connect the dots even when it's laid out in front of them. For those of us that can see it, trying to point people in the right direction is a lot like the curse of Sisyphus. Lore nerds unfortunately have the same distribution (http://www.iqcatch.com/resource/images/IQ-Bell-Curve.png) as the general population and no about of reasoned argument on the forums will move a person to the right.
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Pardon me for being blunt, but that seems like an very biased perception of the PF. There's virtually nothing written about slavery in Gallente space, nothing remotely as in-depth as you are saying about Minmatar in the Federation, or any sort of comparison between the quality of life for an average Amarrian slave as opposed to a random Republic citizen.
I was 100% sure someone would say this. It's OOCly found in bread crumbs all over the place, not easy to find by a player - but in a real New Eden, if you were a transhuman, it'd be in your face.
Plus, Eve fiction is a lot like legacy code. The CCP people come and go and their works are often directly contradict each other.
But this does lead to an interesting phenomenon: You have New Eden as it seems on the surface, which you get from a first pass of the faction overviews etc. Then little bits that you pick up on over the years that suggest New Eden might not be what you first thought.
It's, I imagine, similar to a baseliners journey to transhuman. Which is really cool - but most definitely not intentional by CCP.
Dude, there is no "real new eden". It's all just written fluff. No writer has a One True Understanding of the setting.
The old writing isn't any more valid then the new writing - If anything, it's the opposite way around, since settings are always subject to change as their developed. Neither is the more obscure stuff more valid then the more public.
You're entitled to your interpretation, but pushing it as some sort of absolute truth that one can only grasp after looking at a bunch of really old articles or missions written by interns in 2003 is kind of weird.
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About slavery in Federal space : yes, there is. It's about underground slavery like sweat workshops (with children labour and everything gross you can think of). It's also tainted by amarrian borders in some areas, and vice versa. It's heavily described in the gallente epic arc for example. It doesn't however makes slavery a truth in Federal space. It's just how it can be interpreted : slavery in the sense of sweat workshops, mostly the kind of indenture, etc.
On the comparison between quality of life between slaves in amarr space and republic citizens, it's a blanket statement and doesn't mean anything. It is a well known fact that you will find as many kind of slaves than you can count in the empire, from the chattel brutor slave working in plantations to the educated clerc in Athra. Both are probably as far away as possible from each other on that scale. It is also stated that the republic citizens are not well off, for sure. Does that mean they are even less well off than plantation slaves ? I doubt it.
Tbh you seem to assert a lot of things that's precisely proper to the human nature trait you are criticizing, Hamish... : |
Or point us to the correct direction and links ? I know you are older in the game than a lot of people here, but I am too... And yes, the more older we get, the more we get stranded in conflicting lore between what we learned 8 years ago, and what we learn now, and it's sometimes a totally different universe...
And subject to interpretations. Here it just feels like we are arguing about pure assumptions on several facts, the kind of things that should rather be left to IC.
( I also agree on your criticizing of the first impressions new players tend to get of every faction, which is often very cliché, yes... )
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https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery
This is my first time seeing this wiki article this but it does support all the slave pens next to pleasure hubs I've seen in lowsec placid.
Slavery is outlawed in the Federation and is considered one of the worst crimes that can be committed. However, human trafficking remains a problem, particularly in low security areas of the Federation, where some estimates suggest that millions of individuals are held in some form of unwilling servitude. The majority of these are forced into prostitution or employed in drug trafficking, though there have been high profile cases of wealthy Gallente being arrested for using slave labor in their homes or businesses.
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Well yeah the same way we could argue that slavery is wide spread in caldari space, where they actually say it's completely forbidden and alien to them... It's a matter of interpretation.
The only fact we have is that the Amarr use the term slavery in a pretty explicit statement. For the rest...
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And subject to interpretations. Here it just feels like we are arguing about pure assumptions on several facts, the kind of things that should rather be left to IC.
To me a friendly debate over PF assumptions IS the reason for OOC spaces as it's intellectually stimulating and breaks the 4th wall when discussed in character. Plus, while I'm still a lore nerd, I'm not much for IC interactions these days.
Tbh you seem to assert a lot of things that's precisely proper to the human nature trait you are criticizing, Hamish... : |
Yea, probably. I have grown a bit...jaded and prickly with this community after going through the same scenario dozens of times. I offer a different interpretation of something with dispassionate, detailed and logical reasons supported by some PF and eagerly await someone to respond either in the affirmative or negative with dispassionate, detailed and logical reasons supported by some PF. Instead almost nearly always get a number logical fallacies of which one is usally ad hominem.
Also it's really common and slightly annoying for folks to dismiss my conclusions based on an argument I've already considered ahead of time and pre-refuted with logical conclusions and snippits of PF. Instead of refuting my refutation by pointing out how my conclusions are illogical or offering contradicting sources. For example:
ME: "I belileve Y, which you might disagree because of X but if you consider A, D, and F then X doesn't really contradict Y and may even support it"
Backstage: "Y is not true because of X"
Also I do have a habit sometimes of posting my conclusions without supporting sources...because well cataloging all the random bits of PF both in new and old fiction that I come across would be way too time consuming. So I forget were I saw things :ugh:
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Well yeah the same way we could argue that slavery is wide spread in caldari space, where they actually say it's completely forbidden and alien to them... It's a matter of interpretation.
There are slave pens in the Guristas sites. However, when you have several little bits pointing to a certain theme I think that's CCP trying to say something. Especially with the epic arcs which I think were meant to give a glimpse of under belly of each of the factions. They were meant to flesh out the factions.
http://lorebook.eve-inspiracy.com/guides/Gallente_Epic_Arc_guide_by_Jowen_Datloran_v0.9.pdf
That's some explicit stuff there. CCP's really putting the child sex slave thing in your face. Is the message the want to send:
'In a nation the size of the Federation, bad stuff happens and here is one small example'
Or:
Sex slaves, including children, are a huge part of the federations underworld
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While I understand your plight, posting with images like rolling a stone uphill and making statements like "the only way to win is to stop playing," does absolutely nothing constructive for a conversation so I'd encourage you to refrain from doing so, no matter how "prickly" you've become.
Yes, slavery happens in the Federation. No, it isn't commonplace and no, the average Federation citizen isn't going to know anything about it. Yes, it is illegal and yes, the Federation actively pursues and punishes those who practice it.
The slavery in the Federation is very different than the slavery in the Empire, in that in the Empire it's an institutionalized, heavily regulated, highly religious practice that has more to do with denial of rights and representation than with whips and chains. In the Federation, it's a black market, highly secretive violation of everything the Federation stands for and is very much a forced servitude and human rights atrocity.
However, just as there are examples of slavery happening in the Federation, there are examples of slave abuse, misuse and malpractice riddled throughout the Empire, the State, the Republic and basically everywhere else in New Eden.
I do believe the general notion of slavery in the Empire is largely misunderstand by a vast majority of RPers, a better example would be the Roman Empire where nearly 50% of the people who walked the streets every day and visited the markets were slaves, not the Colonial American slavery where you kept slaves locked indoors or carefully watched in the fields and never let them out, like a bad secret.
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Yes, slavery happens in the Federation. No, it isn't commonplace and no, the average Federation citizen isn't going to know anything about it. Yes, it is illegal and yes, the Federation actively pursues and punishes those who practice it.
I'm going to need you post some sources for such bold statements.
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I'd go with the entire Gallente Epic Arc, for starters.
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I'd go with the entire Gallente Epic Arc, for starters.
How so?
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https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery
Namely:
[sic]...though there have been high profile cases of wealthy Gallente being arrested for using slave labor in their homes or businesses.
Punishment.
When encountering less-developed civilizations, one of the Federation's first orders of business was to ensure that slavery was not a problem. A few times, the Federation has forcibly abolished and freed slaves, something generally viewed with positivity among Federation citizens. This “cultural imperialism” has drawn fire from the Federation's enemies, but those inside the Federation view the criticism as a small price to pay for the freedom of others.
Pursuit and punishment/abolishment.
A few work to raise awareness of illegal slavery within the Federation itself, which remains a problem despite the wide negative attitudes about it.
Raising awareness means the general population is generally unaware of its existence and/or in denial about the possibility of its existence. It also shows a vested political interest which means it is something that would normally appeal to voters.
Does this necessarily mean that the Federation is simply a victim of circumstance that has bad people enslaving others that it simply doesn't know about? Nope. I suspect there are politicians in place who turn a blind eye or even discreetly promote/assist such practices. But on a whole? Not generally and acceptable or permitted practice within the Federation.
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https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery
Namely:
[sic]...though there have been high profile cases of wealthy Gallente being arrested for using slave labor in their homes or businesses.
Punishment.
When encountering less-developed civilizations, one of the Federation's first orders of business was to ensure that slavery was not a problem. A few times, the Federation has forcibly abolished and freed slaves, something generally viewed with positivity among Federation citizens. This “cultural imperialism” has drawn fire from the Federation's enemies, but those inside the Federation view the criticism as a small price to pay for the freedom of others.
Pursuit and punishment/abolishment.
A few work to raise awareness of illegal slavery within the Federation itself, which remains a problem despite the wide negative attitudes about it.
Raising awareness means the general population is generally unaware of its existence and/or in denial about the possibility of its existence. It also shows a vested political interest which means it is something that would normally appeal to voters.
Does this necessarily mean that the Federation is simply a victim of circumstance that has bad people enslaving others that it simply doesn't know about? Nope. I suspect there are politicians in place who turn a blind eye or even discreetly promote/assist such practices. But on a whole? Not generally and acceptable or permitted practice within the Federation.
Thank you :)
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So, going from what's been established here about the *character* of slavery in the Federation: what about the *number* of slaves as the thread name asks? What would ya'll put forward as a rough estimate of the slave population in the Federation?
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Well I don't have sources obviously but if you are talking about hardcore slavery with real slaves (like in the gallente undeground), then I would say below 1%, which is already a lot of people...
If you mean indentured, then... Hard to tell, the definition is rather vague.
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https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation
Delta
Delta cities are categorized by having very few unique characteristics beyond a large population. The income gap is narrow, yet the range as a whole is lower down the Federation government’s ladder. Delta cities may be built around a single industry, or are the hubs of minor civilizations who were never uplifted or developed. Technology may be old-fashioned, based on fossil fuels and local resources, though there may be smatterings of contemporary tech. Alternatively, the colonial cities found across the frontiers of the Federation are typically assigned delta status, as their standardized methods of construction and development are not considered to grant them any unique characteristics.
Living in a delta city is considered unremarkable. While a citizen cannot hope to be as well-off as those in more developed parts of the Federation, they are unlikely to fall into abject poverty either. These cities can be very remote, not interacting with space at all beyond industry, instead relying on various hinterland communities in its own political and economic bubble. Thus, any city that is relevant only to its local continent or planet can be considered a delta city.
Omega
Omega cities are no longer officially acknowledged by the Federation government, but are nonetheless recorded by independent groups. These are cities where order as defined by the Federation has collapsed (or never existed in the first place) for whatever reason, rife with abject poverty and instability. Any governments that exist are weak to impotent, and highly corrupt. Actual control of the fragmented populace is exhibited through non-recognized forces, including tribal warlords or illegal corporate proxies. Metrics such as personal health, life expectancy, and literacy rates are amongst the lowest in New Eden. Modern technology is either non-existent or in the hands of controlling forces. Any unifying identity is similarly absent.
Though such places exist in all four empires (and are numerous in null-security space), the Federation takes a different approach as it still classes the inhabitants of omega cities as full citizens, thus entitled to the same rights and support as everyone else. Governments of other territories or the Federation itself frequently attempt to intervene in omega cities to establish some sense of order and stability. This may be militarily, sending in forces to liberate the inhabitants from their oppressors. More peaceful means may be attempting to facilitate non-rigged elections and encourage voter turnout, but various local factors the Federation has been unable to take into account (either being unaware or unwilling depending on the administration) means that these endeavors can be unsuccessful.
Controversially, interstellar corporations have been implicated in keeping omega cities as such by using them to fill economic niches that cannot be compensated for elsewhere. For example, corporations have been caught employing child laborers in omega cities, in a wide variety of areas, but especially in textiles for use in interstellar fashion circles. Other illicit practices (like slavery) can frequently be found in omega cities. This has only been able to continue for so long because of the lack of any media or communications technology locally has kept many omega cities hidden from wider purview.
The majority of the Federation are in agreement that omega cities are in need of assistance. An unfashionable few defend the existence of these cities as serving a symbolic purpose, stating that omega cities are the exact reasons why citizens should not take their freedoms to the extreme, and should all work to prevent their own societies from falling that far.
Type-II
Type-II settlements are as large as their type-I counterparts, but are significantly older and will have instances of poverty and underprivilege. They will lack the advanced aesthetics of the higher tier, and constructed with last generation techniques without having been upgraded to modern standard. As such, their economic significance may have dwindled, creating unemployment and districts inhabited by relatively poorer individuals.
Older space stations and underwater cities are examples of type-II habitats.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are millions of subsistence communities that keep themselves isolated and are completely unknown to larger bodies, ranging from anything including planetary tribes to forgotten colonies. Many only realize that they are citizens of some interstellar Federation in the rare event they encounter someone from space. Though there may be perceptions of abject poverty (particularly amongst non-civilized races), the truth of the matter in many cases is that there is no local perception of it; the population are happy to live their lives without any item of modern technology. They are left alone for the most part, given the choice to engage with the Federation as equal citizens if they wish. Gallente colonialism still lingers in some parts, however, and they may find themselves modernized regardless, though they are free to protest this.
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I have a similar view of the Federation to purple, although I'd argue that at least some of his statements and conclusions in his original post go a little too far. For me, one of the big tensions in the Federation is how all these trillions of people exist within a system that promotes freedom and democracy but doesn't have the resources or infrastructure to action its vision on the scale it needs to.
I'm always amused by the stereotype of successful Gallente and Federation citizens as vapid, celebrity-obsessed airheads when the reality is that in order to excel under such a system and rise out of the sleaze and slime that exists beneath the popular image of Federal society you would need to be strong-willed, extremely intelligent and/or capable and ruthless enough to crush your own children along with anyone else who gets in your way.
Power Politics and The Human Painting have always been two of my favourite Gallente focused chronicles as a result.
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Perhaps part of the difficulty in approaching this discussion is the fact that we've never defined properly the nebulous term "slavery" - perhaps if we begin by trying to reach a consensus, for the purposes of this discussion at least, as to what we mean by "slavery" we can press forward and achieve synthesis. :)
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I really doubt that you will succeed in such a task imo... That's the whole point of it : be it IC or OOC, slavery can take many mantles, from various indentures to hardcore breeding slavery.
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It's really easy to define a term such as 'slavery' sufficently, even if it has to include a vast variety of practices. The problem is not the definition, but to have people agree on it. Is wage slavery really slavery? Some people would say yes, others would say no and both would be sure to have it right.
Even if you try to bring forth a 'minimal definition', with which everyone should be able to agree that everything that falls under it certainly is slavery, there will be problems, when you look at it closely. Things like forced penal work or legal guardianship are hard to differentiate from slavery and people will here, again, disagree on what is a form of slavery and what not.
Also, the slavery debate is rarely one taking place on the field of reason, but rather on the emotional plane. Definitions can't really do justice to the emotional side of things.
All that said, I think it'd be a good thing to agree on a definition for the sake of the discussion. Even if one doesn't agree with all facets of the definition, it helps making clear where one disagrees and where one agrees and generally gives a discussion a structure that allows to better understand what is actually talked about and how.
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Perhaps pertinent to the discussion. CNN Freedom Project - Ending Modern Slavery (http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/category/the-facts/the-number/)
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I'm always amused by the stereotype of successful Gallente and Federation citizens as vapid, celebrity-obsessed airheads when the reality is that in order to excel under such a system and rise out of the sleaze and slime that exists beneath the popular image of Federal society you would need to be strong-willed, extremely intelligent and/or capable and ruthless enough to crush your own children along with anyone else who gets in your way.
Power Politics and The Human Painting have always been two of my favourite Gallente focused chronicles as a result.
Heh, those two chronicles are part of what formed Liam as a character. It's why I try and roleplay him as a highly intelligent, somewhat guarded individual who is proud of where the Federation is compared to where it could be.
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I really doubt that you will succeed in such a task imo... That's the whole point of it : be it IC or OOC, slavery can take many mantles, from various indentures to hardcore breeding slavery.
Then surely this discussion is moot? If there is no possibility of defining the term "slavery" to the extent where we can adequately estimate OOCly the actual number of "slaves," as defined by our agreed upon definition, then isn't this discussion irrelevant? And should properly then be consigned to IC debates?
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I don' t know. Nico is probably right.
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I don' t know. Nico is probably right.
From my reading of Nico's post they said that "slavery" is a hotly contested term (not an essentially contested one), and that most discussions attempting to define it are not rationally set out.
However they concluded that for the purposes of our discussion here, to OOCly determine the number of slaves in the Federation, that it is assuredly worthwhile to define what is meant by "slavery." Even if only in relation to our peculiar positions, as this will help others to know what the person posting defines "slavery" as.
Apologies for any errors in this post, am on my phone, any edits will be done when I am at a computer. :)
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Or we could, you know, keep it undefined while still acknowledging (OOCly) that it's likely to exist under some definition and use that conjecture to generate conflict/debate ICly.
As soon as you try to apply numbers to anything in RP someone will try to use those numbers to game the system and 'win'.
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Or we could, you know, keep it undefined while still acknowledging (OOCly) that it's likely to exist under some definition and use that conjecture to generate conflict/debate ICly.
As soon as you try to apply numbers to anything in RP someone will try to use those numbers to game the system and 'win'.
Too late.