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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Veiki on 13 Feb 2015, 05:30
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Recently I've been pondering the Minmatar and for myself it seems that in regards to their portrayal in the lore and fiction the Republic and the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture. When I go through the lore of the Minmatar and the Republic:
- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
- The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.
I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.
In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?
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One could equally argue that the Empire is useless on the basis that it's lost every war/battle in modern times (500 years) depicted in the background, often against much smaller forces. Kingdom, Republic, Jove, Federation Kind Of... The only time it sort of won was due to space magic. It also has most of it's most sacred traditions portrayed as being stepped on repeatedly, the cloned empress thing being the least of it.
The whole south of the cluster seems to be basically defined by a sequence of deus ex machinas or influence from outside sources, rather than having any will of it's own. Even the Amarrian religion is implied to just be the product of the Jove/some other ancient civilization messing with them for some reason.
(What am I saying, the "whole south"? That's basically everything in this awful setting!)
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One could equally argue that the Empire is useless on the basis that it's lost every war/battle in modern times (500 years) depicted in the background, often against much smaller forces. Kingdom, Republic, Jove, Federation Kind Of... The only time it sort of won was due to space magic. It also has most of it's most sacred traditions portrayed as being stepped on repeatedly, the cloned empress thing being the least of it.
The whole south of the cluster seems to be basically defined by a sequence of deus ex machinas or influence from outside sources, rather than having any will of it's own. Even the Amarrian religion is implied to just be the product of the Jove/some other ancient civilization messing with them for some reason.
(What am I saying, the "whole south"? That's basically everything in this awful setting!)
Heh. This really wasn't intended as some kind of PF competition of who is the best and most powerful vis-a-vis all the rest. Rather, it's about how the portrayal of the Minmatar and the Republic seems to leave very little positive to build upon once you move beyond slavery related issues. The Amarr Empire for example has slavery related issues, but to take your example, even if it's never won a battle in the last few centuries it still remains portrayed as a strong military and economic power.
The issue for me though is if you're a new player and choose a Minmatar character, then you end up with a Republic that seems portrayed with little positive attributes attached to it beyond being the underdog - which seems a bit like a backhand compliment.
Then again maybe it's just a matter of personal perspective and given the PF provided, the Republic truly is presented as the military, economic, political, and cultural rivals of the other major factions and is able to project a sense of real power when compared to them?
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I always thought the minmatar where the best traders (as in moving stuff from A to B).
But yes i think they are really lacking some cool aspect as a society, the tattoos doesnt cut it.
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Yes, they're clearly terribad. Let's completely ignore every positive side in the past and present.
Except, you know, doing it to any other of the races would be disingenuous.
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- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
- Military defeats being unique to Minmatar. We haven't seen it happen to anyone else, have we? Besides, it's clearly a black mark against the Minmatar that a giant warmachine who's entire existence was based on militaristic expansion managed to defeat a society that had spent the entire last millennium in peace.
- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
- So a successful rebellion, from a completely hopeless position, is invalidated because they didn't do it entirely alone? U wot?
- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
- The Federation created a Republic, enforcing the failure of democracy on a people who's culture doesn't work that way, then those people are to be blamed for it? Well obviously, because they're the ones you're trying to stir up shit about.
- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
- Hmm, I guess the Guri, Serps and so on have no grievances with their previous citizenships. They joined up for the cookies.
- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
- The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
- Ah yes, because space magic didn't cause that at all, and successfully achieving the objective of rescuing the tribes that were on the verge of extinction does not count because reasons.
- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
- Incompetent politicians? Surely a uniquely Minmatar trait we haven't seen among any of the other factions. ... wait, hang on a minute.
- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.
- Yeah, I mean the hostile act of dumping countless indoctrinated zealots and hostiles on the Republic was the Republic's fault. This was in no way intentionally done by a hostile foreign power.
I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.
In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?
Clearly good at attracting trolls with an agenda.
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stuff
Wow Miz...tell us how you really feel. :D
I don't think Gesakaarin was trying to shit on the Minmatar in comparison to the other empires. I never really looked at it closely, but they do raise some points. Sure like you just said they arent the only empire with problems, but I do think the Minmatar do have a bit more problems than some of the others.
The one thing I always gave the Minnies was a kind of stubborn pride. They as a people seemed to have John Wayne levels of grit when it was needed.
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I'd say claiming there isn't -one- positive feature to the tribes is shitting on it.
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I think CCP are really bad at creating things for people to be proud about in terms of factions in general, to be honest. They portray every single government in the game as a bunch of undiplomatic screwups constantly compromising their own values and making terrible and internally contradictory decisions at every turn. Plus, conflicts always resolve in ways that are indecisively pyrrhic and miserable for everyone involved, with no one getting what they want.
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Miz, as the self proclaimed "last minmatar roleplayer", do you not think there could be a reason nobody wants to join up with Matari RP? I think Veik raises some good points. The Minmatar haven't had anything to go "look what we did, isn't that shit cool?" for years.
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Miz, as the self proclaimed "last minmatar roleplayer", do you not think there could be a reason nobody wants to join up with Matari RP? I think Veik raises some good points. The Minmatar haven't had anything to go "look what we did, isn't that shit cool?" for years.
How about we don't take jokes into the discussion as if they've ever been uttered seriously?
And yes, I'm well aware of the various problems with the Matari issues, as I've been quite loudly proclaiming throughout god knows how many channels and discussion fora for quite some time. I still take exception when the faction is being quite erroneously claimed to have no positive features at all. "the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture." is a claim I'm going to need some quite serious citation for, especially when it's followed by a laundry list of things that are flat out written just to stir shit up, as every single point on the list can be attributed to all of the factions.
A topic on the subject of the portrayal of the Republic is all well and good. A topic setting out entirely to do nothing but shit on it is not.
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The Minmatar are pretty damn good at violating treaties they've signed.
Does that count as a plus?
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Miz, as the self proclaimed "last minmatar roleplayer", do you not think there could be a reason nobody wants to join up with Matari RP? I think Veik raises some good points. The Minmatar haven't had anything to go "look what we did, isn't that shit cool?" for years.
How about we don't take jokes into the discussion as if they've ever been uttered seriously?
And yes, I'm well aware of the various problems with the Matari issues, as I've been quite loudly proclaiming throughout god knows how many channels and discussion fora for quite some time. I still take exception when the faction is being quite erroneously claimed to have no positive features at all. "the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture." is a claim I'm going to need some quite serious citation for, especially when it's followed by a laundry list of things that are flat out written just to stir shit up, as every single point on the list can be attributed to all of the factions.
A topic on the subject of the portrayal of the Republic is all well and good. A topic setting out entirely to do nothing but shit on it is not.
While every single point can be attributed to all the other factions...all the other factions have "good" points to go along with the bad. Minmatar do seem a bit lacking in that department. Sure you have the elder fleet, but as Veik pointed out when looked at on the big picture long term type of scale it was pretty much a huge waste of resources that could have been used better. I like their underlying stoicism, but I don't see a whole lot about the Republic to really see as a huge positive. v0v
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I realize saying this is a bit odd to say after my last post - Which I suppose was made in recognition of the fact that it's something that's very important to a ton of roleplayers - But I've never really got why it's often so important for RPers for their faction to be the "best", in some regard, in a way they need to feel proud about. It strikes me as weighing things from an inside-context rather than outside-context perspective, which seems very odd, since it's your character that's inherently going to be emotionally attached to that faction, not, well, you.
Disparity between haves and have-nots makes for an engaging world. There are just as many, if not more, interesting themes to explore with a character who comes from a impoverished and unstable state as there are from one that is dominant and powerful, whether they're cynical about the state of affairs, or still eagerly patriotic in spite of them, and determined to remain proud of their heritage regardless and change things for the better. In fact, I'd go as far to say that making a hyper patriotic character from a powerful or morally straight-and-narrow country is one of the duller RP angles around, as there's little room for meaningful introspection regarding it. So, I don't get why it seems to put people off.
It's also a lot more realistic than having the standard MMO factions-in-perfect-equilibrium business. If you look at our world, there are undeniably places, and peoples, that are, as extremely shitty as it is, better off in every fashion than others.
All that being said, I don't think the Republic per-se fits into this model I'm talking about. I think it's more a victim of lazy and bad writing that really something deliberately written as screwed up as it comes across. TEA did it a disservice, and rather than really mop that up like it has with the rest of the factions in the live-content binge of early 2013, it seems like CCP set it vaguely on track for a Caldari-esque redemption arc of some sort, but ran out of time/lost interest before it could reach it's climax and subsequent conclusion, rendering it stuck in an awkward limbo where it looks kind of all over the place.
Which really sucks. But then, like I already said, this games whole setting basically sucks, so.
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I think Gwen has grasped the general gist of my opinions and assertions so far.
I'll elaborate a bit more on my initial thoughts with the following line:
The majority of loyalist factional roleplay is nothing more than an exercise in the creation of perceptions and propaganda, which in order to ensure continued player investment there needs to be a successful factional brand identity.
Some might disagree with that sentiment and that's fine. However, following down that line of reasoning I would say that buying into a faction as a loyalist roleplayer is no different to me than buying into any other type of product brand whether it's Prada, Gucci, Nike, BMW, Audi, and so on. Taken from the perspective of marketing and advertising in brief for the factions I just feel the CCP PF treatment and the Live Events make the Minmatar and the Republic a lot less appealing and a harder sell for new players and new roleplayers especially.
This is no attempt at trying to "shit" on the Minmatar or the Republic, in fact it's the opposite: I'm trying to point out that to me it's a really hard sell due to a variety of factors. I believe that lack for a Minmatar or Republic loyalist type character to invest in the brand is not a good thing, it is in fact a bad thing.
Like I said, people are people, and if a person goes out and buys a certain brand a large part of why they invested in it is in fact to feel proud about it, that there's premium qualities to it, that they can believe in what is being sold.
Right now, I do believe there is an undercurrent of negative bias towards the Minmatar and the Republic in recent years as regards their portrayal and seeming continued lack of success. I'm not the one here saying how dead Minmatar RP though -- that's others -- and it's due to that lack of success, as portrayed in PF and lore that I feel diminishes it as a compelling faction to sign up for these days in comparison to others.
I'm not sure how that's trolling, because I certainly have little intention of making people mad over internet spaceships by any means. If I did have an intention to provoke, it would not be for anger but rather for people to consider and provide positive qualities to sell for the Minmatar as a faction to others.
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Recently I've been pondering the Minmatar and for myself it seems that in regards to their portrayal in the lore and fiction the Republic and the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture. When I go through the lore of the Minmatar and the Republic:
- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
- The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.
I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.
In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?
They were at least good at assaulting CONCORD HQ and the Empire before it took them zombieJamyl and her terran weapon to stop them (because the imperial navy is useless apparently too). But TonyG is hardly a good example for most factions, it makes them look all terrible, even the Fed.
But yes it is definitely a case where the Republic looks a lot like Africa IRL to a point where it draws a lot of inspiration from there. Shitty economics, shitty social policies, corrupted to the bones, assisted by Federation marshall plan but actually using the money for their own individual gains... Historically, like African countries, it's a young state compared to the others, and a state that got its independence from imperials after a rebellion (= RL decolonization, a bit more bloody) and still struggles to get back on its feet (cf Brian's Life "what good has the Romans brought us ?").
I'm volontarily darkening the depiction but I think that's directly explained and derived from where they took their inspiration, much like the Amarr Empire used to be depicted as utter bigoted morons back in the day (fortunately, it has stopped), the State = 3rd reich, etc etc. It is always easy to fall into certain tropes when drawing inspiration from RL things, and CCP is no exception to that.
Other than that, no, can't answer better than what has already been said i'm afraid...
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Ccp's reluctance for any serious change in the empires' status quo power dynamics means the initial relationships they set up at the outset will never change. They rolled minmatar to be the lore underdogs with generous helpings of of PF derp and they will not likely change it.
If its any consolation the actual game part of the game has for the most part kept winmatar ships at the top of the PvP spectrum for most of eve history, save the occasional nerf. The other factions only occasionally had the FOTM ships, matari were always pretty consistently kicking ass with their ships.
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One could equally argue that the Empire is useless on the basis that it's lost every war/battle in modern times (500 years) depicted in the background, often against much smaller forces. Kingdom, Republic, Jove, Federation Kind Of... The only time it sort of won was due to space magic. It also has most of it's most sacred traditions portrayed as being stepped on repeatedly, the cloned empress thing being the least of it.
The whole south of the cluster seems to be basically defined by a sequence of deus ex machinas or influence from outside sources, rather than having any will of it's own. Even the Amarrian religion is implied to just be the product of the Jove/some other ancient civilization messing with them for some reason.
(What am I saying, the "whole south"? That's basically everything in this awful setting!)
Heh. This really wasn't intended as some kind of PF competition of who is the best and most powerful vis-a-vis all the rest. Rather, it's about how the portrayal of the Minmatar and the Republic seems to leave very little positive to build upon once you move beyond slavery related issues. The Amarr Empire for example has slavery related issues, but to take your example, even if it's never won a battle in the last few centuries it still remains portrayed as a strong military and economic power.
The issue for me though is if you're a new player and choose a Minmatar character, then you end up with a Republic that seems portrayed with little positive attributes attached to it beyond being the underdog - which seems a bit like a backhand compliment.
Then again maybe it's just a matter of personal perspective and given the PF provided, the Republic truly is presented as the military, economic, political, and cultural rivals of the other major factions and is able to project a sense of real power when compared to them?
I think what attracted most minmatar players has always been the atmosphere and the look of the faction itself, rather than the Republic. The Republic has never been really appealing, but I still think it was more appealing when leaded by Midular though. Which could explain the state of Minmatar RP now.
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I'd wager a guess that it was already on a decline before they gave Karin a forced trepanning, but I've never been part of the Minmatar RP community nor really wanted to, so I'm basing that on observations of people who I knew to be part of it at the time.
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In many ways the Minmatar (and Ammatar) are the post-colonial disaster states of EVE. They have been basically screwed over by *everyone* at this point.
I do think there is a lot of neat material to be had in their underdog/totally screwed situation, though. It allows RP questions like "How does a society recreate a destroyed past culture for its modern purposes?" or "How does a totally outgunned state manage to maintain its feelings of pride and independence?" A lot of the best Matari RP has come out of the really horrid situation the republic is in.
One of the really tragic things that the whole Elder fleet concept stole from the Matari was the sense of "We are underdogs, but are still going to put up a fight." Getting a magic fleet from nowhere put the Matari on a militarily equal footing to Amarr (who then also got a magic super weapon :/) and this actively stole a lot of the luster from the narrative of prior arcs like the Defiants. I think it is notable that Matari RP was the largest RP group up to about 2010, so the question is what has changed since then to make RPing a matari loyalist less appealing.
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It's also a lot more realistic than having the standard MMO factions-in-perfect-equilibrium business.
Actually, I think a lot of the Republic's situation is in large part an unfortunate result of the paradox of wanting things to happen, but not being allowed to truly advance the plot: For example, the Thukker reintegration "happened", but because the game can't be allowed to change there's been no noticeable advance in the Thukker-Republic situation since then; similarly, the slaves from the 9th-Gen freeing that ended up arriving in the Republic can never actually be allowed to influence Republic policy, because that would have implications for why FW is continuing to happen.
It's an unfortunate state of things that builds on - as others have mentioned - the extremely poor service the Republic has had in fiction; for example, in the original PF the Federation's aid was significantly less influential, more a case of covert military training and assistance than actually sending whole fleets straight to the Republic. Of course, this was also back when the Amarr were presumed to have only conquered large portions of the Minmatar, not absolutely overrun the entire civilization.
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Minmatar?
Superior pathos.
They can be suffering and dysfunctional on just about every level, but you still kinda want to root for them. It's not just the "underdog" status (though that is their designated position); it's also the history and the understandable-if-not-necessarily-practical determination to fully secure their freedom and revenge.
The dysfunction's a part of it, even-- more than just about any other faction (other than maybe the Caldari) they're struggling with their identity and what it "means to be Minmatar."
Unambiguous victory or awesomeness would tend to detract from the pathos, and would arguably be out of place considering the maybe-justifiable-but-still-dark path the civilization's been on. Revenge quests don't lend themselves to a lot of light and cheer.
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The Republic and the tribes are separate entities, like Raiders and Sani Sabik or Achurans and The Caldari State. So just like you will see less good in any government entity, the Republic in this case, there are many good things in the people of that government's culture. The tribes that make up the Republic have tons of good things about them and their different cultures. The Republic on the other hand, I agree, has almost nothing positive to show besides awesome ships.
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Mizhara, I wouldn't say it's Gesakaarin trolling. I know that this issue is something that Ava has complained a lot about as well for example.
All that being said, it's not something I agree with personally.
1) For where it started from, the Republic has come a long way in a very short amount of time. Yes, it's fractured. Yes, it's hit and miss. But it defeated the most militarily powerful empire largely on its own. It was supplied arms and training by the Gallente/Jove. It was not supplied with fleets or even (a significant amount of) troops. It fought, and won, its own battles, and succeeded in winning even more territory than it originally lost to the Empire in the first place. Like any largely special operations-backed guerilla movement, it is mostly the work of the people rather than the supporters. The supporters are providing equalizing and force multiplying elements like money, training, and weapons, but they are not doing the fighting. Find one single nation that has won a rebellion and done it without the help and backing of more powerful nations. I don't think you'd be able to find one. Rebellions start from a severely disadvantaged position, they need that backing just to get up to a somewhat even level with the people they're fighting against. It is NO mark against them to win only by help. The fact that they won at all is actually a very rare and difficult thing to acheive.
2) The Republic's government issues are very similar to any nation in a similar scenario. As in most such scenarios, the destablizing elements are most often the fault of the patron nation tending to back elements that are in its own interests rather than the interests of the other country. Most of the Minmatars' problems are the result of Amarrian and Federal influences. The Republic is a nation in growing pains, that is getting tugged back and forth by many outside forces along with its own internal extremist elements (which, by merit of saying 'fuck you' to the outside forces tends to inspire a lot of support among a populace that feels its destiny has been out of its own hands). Its current government is a radical one, while its former one was essentially a puppet government. It'll eventually grow into something stable, but it takes time. The country is still learning what it wants to be.
3) Science and technology. The Republic has made as many innovations as the other empires. Stasis webifiers are a Minmatar invention (according to the fact that web bonus traits on ships are always given as a 'Minmatar' skill), and as miniaturization of existing tech seems to be their thing (see the recent scientific breakthrough last year regarding gravity well tech (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/boundless-creation-reveals-technological-breakthrough/)), I would expect the microwarpdrive is also a Minmatar invention (probably taking the gallente warp tech and then reverse engineering it to be usable in combat for their fast strike fleet doctrines). They're also very good with sensor tech, judging by their focus on signature enhancement and reduction technology. The Boundless Creations article also seems to imply that the Minmatar perfected shield boosters (and Core Complexion developed ancillary shield boosters) and states that they coded the algorithm used in all modern tracking enhancing modules. And Eifyr and Co. are a well-regarded cybernetics company and they developed Synth combat boosters.
4) Crime in the Republic, while once a big thing (and expected, again, for being in growing pains and being subject to the whims of patron nations), is down a lot in recent years. As a nation, it is stabilizing and it is putting down those unsavory elements. I'd also expect a significant chunk of those elements comes from recently freed slaves who just recently arrived in the Republic and are desperate and fall into poor situations, rather than established families that have managed to find their place in the society. Keep in mind that crime in a society tends to happen primarily among the least enfranchised members, which in the Republic is going to be mostly former slaves who have just arrived and haven't built up any support network.
5) Social welfare. The Republic is probably second after the Federation in providing for its people. It doesn't have as strong of an economy as the other empires and so what it can reasonably provide is limited, but it does have more of a support system than either the State (where you drop off the map entirely and become untouchable) or the Empire (where your main options when disenfranchised are church charities or selling yourself/family into slavery). Republic tribes and clans meanwhile provide a decent support system that people can draw on. According to the Emancipation Decree news reports, and from CCP Eterne's unofficial writings, even a new immigrant former slave from the Empire, with no voluval and part of no clan or tribe, is still provided free food, housing, health care, and work and education placements (when they can be found) when they get to the Republic. They do, in fact, support the people they come for. It is difficult for them on an economic level, but they do it.
6) The assault on CONCORD and the Empire did what it set out to do. The Elder invasion was done to rescue the Starkmanir. It accomplished this. While it might have suffered more casualties than it expected, it had a mission objective and it achieved that objective. If there's any negative result of the invasion, it's that it reached too far and turned into the trench war of FW rather than taking its victory as the victory that it was.
7) Colelie was a statement. Again, it accomplished its objectives, even if it suffered casualties. The Republic showed that it will not play second fiddle to the Federation anymore. Consider it like any slave rebellion that is doomed to failure--for some people, that doom is worth it for the statement it makes. "We will not back down to you," or even just, "I die free." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DidnDWjqX5Y) I really dislike this tendency to view things from a purely tactical perspective and not by a cultural one.
"Slave army, yes. Managed to get a hold of Vitoc. They knew it wouldn't last; even if they got control, the Vitoc would eventually run out. So they were riding high on their luck, but they were never going to rule the planet. They were good with their words, and good at getting people excited, and they only wanted to lash out, like some young people do without heeding the consequences when they don't know anything else." - Daughters of the Revolution
Consider that quote and then apply it to Colelie. Just because you know you are going to fall, does not mean you should not make the statement regardless. We are talking about the Minmatar here. Some people would call it stupid, they would call it bravery. Now, it could be said that the point they were making a statement over was something silly, but only if viewed from a limited scope. I don't view Colelie as being about just Midular and the killer though. I'd honestly consider that secondary. I think Colelie was meant as a wider statement, a commentary on the Federation's treatment of the Republic as children that must do as it says. Under Shakor, that kind of treatment is something the Republic will no longer submit to, and Colelie was where they made that clear. Minmatar value their pride over their lives. From that perspective, Colelie was a success.
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Positives to show? Well, I can honestly think of more of them for Minmatar than most others.
Vibrant tribal cultures, containing elements from some of the most interesting real life cultures around, including but not limited to Maori, Norse etc etc. If you're looking for a mish-mash of spiritualism, shamanism, warrior culture and so on you'll never find a better option in this game and very few others.
Versatility. There's pretty much nothing you won't find somewhere in Minmatar culture and population. The freed slaves (and all the sub-variants thereof from rawrmatar through faithmatar etc), the Ammatar, the Republicans, the Tribals, the exiles, the emigrated, the immigrated, the every-day men and women, the military, the shamans, the rebels, the matriarchs/patriarchs, the clanless, the clanheads, the ogodI'llneverrunoutofthings.
There's the oft-mentioned underdog status, which also touches upon one of their greatest strengths, their indomitable will and capacity for going on in the face of pretty much anything.
There's their unprecedented and unrivaled millennia long period of peace and prosperity, which is unbelievably impressive to me at least.
"Cowboy" Engineering. It's a fun little trope that can definitely become a cliche, but there's no way around how CCP has made the Minmatar capable of taking a wrench into a scrapheap and an hour later launch a fleet capable of taking on the Empire and winning. While others may be more technologically advanced, it's a fairly significant positive that they can do unbelievable things with the most basic of assets.
War. A people who first spent a millennia forging peace have now picked up the weapons wrested from their enemies and are now continually kicking ass with it. It's not necessarily a positive as far as results or consequences go, but it's a very positive feature for anyone wishing to play the warrior. It's another push towards the notion of indomitable will etc.
They took on not only the Empire, but CONCORD and the Empress' space magic and still achieved the objective. Tribes on the verge of extinction, saved from their fate. Show me one faction in Eve that has achieved something that astounding, from that starting position.
The list of positives for the Minmatar is longer than this, but I'm sure we can pretend they don't exist. I mean, most people do.
Fakeedit: I do consider it trolling when Gesakaarin is flat out saying there are no positives at all. It's such a flat out insane statement that no one'd make if they didn't have a reason to do so, Sami. That said, I largely agree with the rest of your post.
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I wouldn't say that the Republic is a particularly hard sell for new players, or for role players necessarily. As has been mentioned, the cursory information available on character creation more or less paints them as independent operators who are now digging their heels in after a successful rebellion. Theirs is the cathartic aspect of rediscovering one's heritage as well, which seems to be highlighted in the flavor text and in wiki articles or chronicles should players research them, and those two things are enough I think to sell players on at least trying the Minmatar faction, formidable PvP silhouette notwithstanding.
On a personal level, I was attracted to the tribal culture and social dynamics set in the backdrop of galactic exploration more than the ex-slave narrative. That has probably come through in the way that Nis never fought the Amarr or supported the Republic form of governance.
The empires all seem to suffer various degrees of dysfunction, and I almost wonder if the Gallente are not worse off than the Minmatar in that regard, but I am no loremaster and that is a topic for another thread I'd wager.
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To me, the Ammatar have absolutely nothing to do with the Minmatar faction. The only thing they share is shared history and a certain amount of cultural remnants, but they are insignificant in regards to what the faction is : an ammarian offshoot with its own flavour, like Khanid is. In terms of brand, it's completely different.
4) Crime in the Republic, while once a big thing (and expected, again, for being in growing pains and being subject to the whims of patron nations), is down a lot in recent years. As a nation, it is stabilizing and it is putting down those unsavory elements. I'd also expect a significant chunk of those elements comes from recently freed slaves who just recently arrived in the Republic and are desperate and fall into poor situations, rather than established families that have managed to find their place in the society. Keep in mind that crime in a society tends to happen primarily among the least enfranchised members, which in the Republic is going to be mostly former slaves who have just arrived and haven't built up any support network.
Out of curiosity, where do you take that information on crime in the republic being down a lot in recent years ?
Also, and it has probably disappeared in the limbo of the old lore, but the Matari people was once stated in its very main description that a good chunk of its population turned to criminality and piracy due to their overpopulation (the most numerous of the cluster) and also out of opportunities, and that in fact the majority of the pirate elements in New Eden were of Matari origin. I wonder what happened to that bit of lore.
7) Colelie was a statement. Again, it accomplished its objectives, even if it suffered casualties. The Republic showed that it will not play second fiddle to the Federation anymore. Consider it like any slave rebellion that is doomed to failure--for some people, that doom is worth it for the statement it makes. "We will not back down to you," or even just, "I die free." I really dislike this tendency to view things from a purely tactical perspective and not by a cultural one.
Yes, that's a good explanation that was brought many times. I think it is the best way to make sense out of it, and that it brings a lot of cultural relativism. But to me it's as you say, what a group of slaves would do, or a group of oppressed people. Not what a serious government spanning over hundred star systems would do.
I think Gwen has grasped the general gist of my opinions and assertions so far.
I'll elaborate a bit more on my initial thoughts with the following line:
The majority of loyalist factional roleplay is nothing more than an exercise in the creation of perceptions and propaganda, which in order to ensure continued player investment there needs to be a successful factional brand identity.
Some might disagree with that sentiment and that's fine. However, following down that line of reasoning I would say that buying into a faction as a loyalist roleplayer is no different to me than buying into any other type of product brand whether it's Prada, Gucci, Nike, BMW, Audi, and so on. Taken from the perspective of marketing and advertising in brief for the factions I just feel the CCP PF treatment and the Live Events make the Minmatar and the Republic a lot less appealing and a harder sell for new players and new roleplayers especially.
This is no attempt at trying to "shit" on the Minmatar or the Republic, in fact it's the opposite: I'm trying to point out that to me it's a really hard sell due to a variety of factors. I believe that lack for a Minmatar or Republic loyalist type character to invest in the brand is not a good thing, it is in fact a bad thing.
Like I said, people are people, and if a person goes out and buys a certain brand a large part of why they invested in it is in fact to feel proud about it, that there's premium qualities to it, that they can believe in what is being sold.
Right now, I do believe there is an undercurrent of negative bias towards the Minmatar and the Republic in recent years as regards their portrayal and seeming continued lack of success. I'm not the one here saying how dead Minmatar RP though -- that's others -- and it's due to that lack of success, as portrayed in PF and lore that I feel diminishes it as a compelling faction to sign up for these days in comparison to others.
I'm not sure how that's trolling, because I certainly have little intention of making people mad over internet spaceships by any means. If I did have an intention to provoke, it would not be for anger but rather for people to consider and provide positive qualities to sell for the Minmatar as a faction to others.
Yes I definitely agree with that. But I still think the Matari have way more directly accessible brand than the Gallente for example. The gallente have always been the easiest faction to play as since it's the closest to our western culture, but it is also the hardest ever in terms of world building, since most of the things of the lore are always in the vein "The gallente are many things, because every member state of the Federation is its own culture and is different".
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I wouldn't say that the Republic is a particularly hard sell for new players, or for role players necessarily. As has been mentioned, the cursory information available on character creation more or less paints them as independent operators who are now digging their heels in after a successful rebellion. Theirs is the cathartic aspect of rediscovering one's heritage as well, which seems to be highlighted in the flavor text and in wiki articles or chronicles should players research them, and those two things are enough I think to sell players on at least trying the Minmatar faction, formidable PvP silhouette notwithstanding.
On a personal level, I was attracted to the tribal culture and social dynamics set in the backdrop of galactic exploration more than the ex-slave narrative. That has probably come through in the way that Nis never fought the Amarr or supported the Republic form of governance.
The empires all seem to suffer various degrees of dysfunction, and I almost wonder if the Gallente are not worse off than the Minmatar in that regard, but I am no loremaster and that is a topic for another thread I'd wager.
Positives to show? Well, I can honestly think of more of them for Minmatar than most others.
Vibrant tribal cultures, containing elements from some of the most interesting real life cultures around, including but not limited to Maori, Norse etc etc. If you're looking for a mish-mash of spiritualism, shamanism, warrior culture and so on you'll never find a better option in this game and very few others.
Versatility. There's pretty much nothing you won't find somewhere in Minmatar culture and population. The freed slaves (and all the sub-variants thereof from rawrmatar through faithmatar etc), the Ammatar, the Republicans, the Tribals, the exiles, the emigrated, the immigrated, the every-day men and women, the military, the shamans, the rebels, the matriarchs/patriarchs, the clanless, the clanheads, the ogodI'llneverrunoutofthings.
There's the oft-mentioned underdog status, which also touches upon one of their greatest strengths, their indomitable will and capacity for going on in the face of pretty much anything.
There's their unprecedented and unrivaled millennia long period of peace and prosperity, which is unbelievably impressive to me at least.
"Cowboy" Engineering. It's a fun little trope that can definitely become a cliche, but there's no way around how CCP has made the Minmatar capable of taking a wrench into a scrapheap and an hour later launch a fleet capable of taking on the Empire and winning. While others may be more technologically advanced, it's a fairly significant positive that they can do unbelievable things with the most basic of assets.
War. A people who first spent a millennia forging peace have now picked up the weapons wrested from their enemies and are now continually kicking ass with it. It's not necessarily a positive as far as results or consequences go, but it's a very positive feature for anyone wishing to play the warrior. It's another push towards the notion of indomitable will etc.
They took on not only the Empire, but CONCORD and the Empress' space magic and still achieved the objective. Tribes on the verge of extinction, saved from their fate. Show me one faction in Eve that has achieved something that astounding, from that starting position.
The list of positives for the Minmatar is longer than this, but I'm sure we can pretend they don't exist. I mean, most people do.
^There we go, it's probably a good piece of positive traits to the Minmatar, Veik.
( except the fake edit )
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Only skimmed this thread because of my not giving a shit, but I will say the following:
- The Sebbies are amazing at engineering something from nothing and just engineering in general.
- The Brutor are great warriors.
- The Vherokior are excellent traders and pathfinders.
Eh, yeah lore is not where it was back in 2003-2007, but why bitch so much?
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Out of curiosity, where do you take that information on crime in the republic being down a lot in recent years ?
Source.
Overall Crime Rate Fall since YC 113: 24.73%
(Republic Justice Department Report, YC 114)
Also, and it has probably disappeared in the limbo of the old lore, but the Matari people was once stated in its very main description that a good chunk of its population turned to criminality and piracy due to their overpopulation (the most numerous of the cluster) and also out of opportunities, and that in fact the majority of the pirate elements in New Eden were of Matari origin. I wonder what happened to that bit of lore.
Nothing has happened to it? I'm pretty sure that's still the case, and it makes sense as Minmatar are the largest ethnicity in New Eden.
Yes, that's a good explanation that was brought many times. I think it is the best way to make sense out of it, and that it brings a lot of cultural relativism. But to me it's as you say, what a group of slaves would do, or a group of oppressed people. Not what a serious government spanning over hundred star systems would do.
It is when that is the cultural mindset of that government and especially when you have a radical nationalist in charge of it.
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I'm still not convinced totally about that, unless we are starting to compare the Republic of Shakor to rogue states like North Korea, Daesh, or the likes... Well, it's true though that IRL it's done in a westernized context of international diplomacy, so I guess it stands more believable in New Eden...
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Hm.
Is the adage that "Gallente fight bravely and die horribly; Minmatar fight bravely and run away" still true?
If so, having the strongest hit and run raiders in the game is a pretty strong recommendation. I know you're looking for seriously admirable things about the Minmatar as a people, but their guiding combat protocol is brilliant for capsuleers.
All joking aside, I actually think the Minmatar (and the Republic) show really remarkable resilience. They've been through centuries of captivity in the hands of a ruthless and tremendously powerful culture actively attempting to annihilate their own ... and they came through it with a remarkably large percentage of their culture. What's more, under the harshest of circumstances (some of them self-inflicted, but still), they have entirely failed to collapse, and have missed thriving mostly by dint of having to share the cluster with the rest of us, including their only partially-defeated oppressors.
They escaped a THOUSAND YEARS of being an institutionalized underclass. Things will not be hunky-dory within a century or so of that. Underdogs they may be, but they're assuredly a power to be reckoned with, right or wrong, and that's a long way from being a bunch of newly-freed slaves.
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But yes it is definitely a case where the Republic looks a lot like Africa IRL to a point where it draws a lot of inspiration from there. Shitty economics, shitty social policies, corrupted to the bones, assisted by Federation marshall plan but actually using the money for their own individual gains... Historically, like African countries, it's a young state compared to the others, and a state that got its independence from imperials after a rebellion (= RL decolonization, a bit more bloody) and still struggles to get back on its feet (cf Brian's Life "what good has the Romans brought us ?").
In a sense I think this for me is at the heart of the matter as regards the Minmatar Republic. At core of the major faction is a narrative generally written along the lines of a "larger" power in conflict with a "smaller" power: Gallente Federation vs. Caldari State; Amarr Empire vs. Minmatar Republic.
When comparing the two conflicting powers of the Gallente Federation and Caldari State they are presented as regards their current background fiction as existing on some basis of parity of threat to each other due to different reasons. The Gallente Federation being the larger power, but due to the nature of its democratic society is a sleeping giant. The Caldari State is the smaller power but also far more militarized as regards their own society.
The conflict narrative between Federation and State has been written in such a way that one is not consistently portrayed as fundamentally "weaker" than the other. They each have their own particular strengths in comparison to each other, at least in the realm of perception and portrayal.
The conflict narrative between the Amarr Empire and the Minmatar Republic however is not one of parity of strength but rather an absence of it. Because the conflict is framed in terms of slavery, it strongly implies a disparity of strength between the participants in the arena of perception about them. In order to enslave another society, one needs the strength to subjugate them. Under such a narrative the ones that subjugate (Amarr) will likely be seen or portrayed as stronger than the ones they have subjugated (Minmatar).
Now, people being people they're likely going to consciously or unconsciously draw Real World parallels and tropes in the formation of their own perspectives of the factions involved. Due to the nature of the whole slavery conflict narrative, then the Amarr will probably be assigned tropes and historical parallels about military conquest or whatever (otherwise how could they have subjugated the Minmatar) and the Minmatar get assigned tropes and historical parallels where they're the victims of oppression, imperialism and colonialism by a foreign power (otherwise how could they have been subjugated by the Amarr).
My initial post was intended as the hypothetical thoughts of someone new to the game or new to the lore. The perceptions potentially formed of the Minmatar and Republic under a conflict narrative of slavery where they are the victims of it. Some might describe such thoughts as unfair, and yes, I think they are at least. I do not however, believe they are unlikely or unbelievable perceptions people might form.
The Minmatar do have a lot of interesting, positive, and engaging aspects to them. Unfortunately I think they will continue to be lost opportunities now that with CCP killing off Midular it really is just going to be about all about slavery with the Republic. Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.
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Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.
You may be overestimating the degree to which the Amarr have been getting portrayed as awesome. They've sort of been suffering their own fail parade.
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I feel like the original lore made the Empire out to be more of a post-colonial declining power, with the Republic a increasingly rising one, but 10 years of complete stagnation have kind of ruined that narrative. Along with, yeah, the whole dynamic between the two becoming much more defined by the past then by the present.
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The Amarr / Minmatar relationship was initially setup as a knockoff of the Centauri / Narn relationship from Babylon 5, right down to the aging imperial power having to accept their formerly enslaved colony as a fledgling independent nation on the scene. Some of the Babylon 5 galactic council arguments between them made their way pretty directly to Eve.
Now what Babylon 5 did, and CCP will never allow to happen, is that they let the aging imperial power reconquer their former slaves with the help of basically the jove, and it was tragic and horrible. Babylon 5 was great in letting the bad people win sometimes, and made the prickly narn all the more noble in defeat, and eventually some revenge killing the emperor.
Much like I would love the other to assist jamyl and reclaim matar, only to eventually be burnt by a united front of the other factions and some amarr. Shakor can even ram his ship into jamyls clone vat or something for added dramallama. Long as jamyl dies im happy.
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Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.
You may be overestimating the degree to which the Amarr have been getting portrayed as awesome. They've sort of been suffering their own fail parade.
I really agree there. Playing Amarr for quite some time I did facepalm a lot. The portrayal in recent PF sources didn't really change that: Rather the contrary is true.
I think the problem is not one particular to the Minmatar, but really simply one of bad overall narrative. I kind'a like the comparison to Babylon 5. Not because I think the Amarr should reconquer the Matari, though. If I want that story, I can re-watch B5. But one thing B5 did well was giving an overarching story which didn't get compromised for making a 'point' in single episodes. The 'metaplot' of EVE is basically non-existing, due to it getting compromised all the times, as writers of PF go on to ignore what already happened because they want to tell their story. All that, of course, gets combined with CCP wanting to keep the 'status quo' as outlined by previous posters.
In the end, that means that all factions end up being shat upon - maybe the Matari had some less fortunate times, recently, but there's no agenda on CCP's side to make them look bad.
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The conflict narrative between the Amarr Empire and the Minmatar Republic however is not one of parity of strength but rather an absence of it. Because the conflict is framed in terms of slavery, it strongly implies a disparity of strength between the participants in the arena of perception about them. In order to enslave another society, one needs the strength to subjugate them. Under such a narrative the ones that subjugate (Amarr) will likely be seen or portrayed as stronger than the ones they have subjugated (Minmatar).
Yes, but History seems to hint to the fact that they tried to bite a lot bigger than they can chew. Considering the sheer size of the Minmatar Empire, albeit of course ridiculously under developed compared to the Amarr Empire of the time, was already big enough. We don't have real numbers and an overview of the size of each empire centuries ago when this happened, we only know that the Minmatar had colonized like 3 solar systems. Since the raids lasted centuries, the Minmatar continued to expand while being bleed slowly by the raiders. Lore seems to tell that every major tribe already controlled several solar systems when the major Reclaiming took place centuries after the beginning.
We also don't know at all the size of the Amarr themselves. Probably bigger of course, yes, but by how much ? They certainly didn't cover what they cover today, and a lot of their planets were probably still colonies and underdeveloped worlds. Were they even more numerous than the Matari ? We don't even know that for certain. All we know is that they were able to go their way because of a huge technological gap.
Considering that today, the Matari are the most numerous in the cluster by far tells something imo.
The Minmatar do have a lot of interesting, positive, and engaging aspects to them. Unfortunately I think they will continue to be lost opportunities now that with CCP killing off Midular it really is just going to be about all about slavery with the Republic. Where failures become an exacerbation of the Minmatar portrayed as the weak victims of slavery throwing rocks impotently at Amarrian tanks.
That's one of my main gripes with the killing of Midular (besides killing one of the few remaining good leader characters...). Unlike Shakor, Midular was presented almost like a Chosen One. The chronicles about her always hinted at great destiny and things, and even if reality doesn't of course follows prophecies and Voluvals (which is very ironic, and works), the only thing we now see of Midular is that she has been the leader of a government that most Matari started to look at in disbelief more and more, and that hints at a complete failure on her side. Even the negociations she did with the Ammatar never bear any fruit, and with Heideranµ/Doriam neither.
All in all I fail to see a single redeeming quality to what Midular did and accomplished, and what I see in return is someone with the most prestigious Voluval, destiny, and admiration, that completely failed to do anything worthy of note except leading her own Republic to the wall. And that, is the whole story of the Republic. I'm not even sure it's still a republic under Shakor reforms. vOv
So yes, the issue is that while the fact that Midular the chosen one failed at anything is grimdark and all and fits to the murphy-esque setting of Eve, it depicts the faction in a very negative way and story-wise, it makes a statement, and a very negative one.
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I actually count that as quite a positive. The complete failure of Midular is a very welcome positive change, eloquently demonstrating that a position of weakness, compromise and kissing enemy arse is not a good way to go about things. It justifies further conflict, allowing for content creation that isn't based on insular "no no, we're just going to sit behind the borders doing nothing while -saying- we're like... building houses and shit.". Now there's room for all manner of Minmatar based RP, not just hippie drum circles.
Midular may very well have been the worst thing to have ever happened to the Minmatar.
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That's not what I meant...
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The lore, such that it is, states that the failures of Midular's government, were not failures of policy.
The problems with the Republic, according to the lore, were that 99.999% of the politicians and senior civil servants, in charge of implementing policies, were in fact Amarr spies, and deliberately screwed up all such things as economic development. Building shoddy refugee slums out of substandard materials and all that. (But where did all the money they were embezzling go? It sure didn't go anywhere in the Republic).
The Elders had unquestionable proof of all of this, and murdered all the politicians and civil servants, during the events of the Empyrean Age novel. Even Midular's bodyguards were all Amarr spies. Which is why she was raped by them. And then Shakor tells Midular a rape joke and says "Time for a new republic", and Midular says "I know my place now, as a woman".
Minmatar of Gor. :psyccp:
Also, CCP chose to write out of history, many of the player events leading up to that time.
Ushra'Khan have Insorum ? - written out of history, the Republic has an unlimited source now, doesn't need U'K help.
Electus Matari building up the economy ? - All the economic development went into the pockets of Amarr spies. Also the Republic is irrelevant to the future of the Minmatar People, which will be decided, in secret, by the Elders, in the secret Elder secret sanctuaries, in a secret location somewhere near the Great Wildlands, in a secret system not accessible by stargates, to shield their secrecy from outsiders.
That sort of thing.
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The Elders had unquestionable proof of all of this, and murdered all the politicians and civil servants, during the events of the Empyrean Age novel. Even Midular's bodyguards were all Amarr spies. Which is why she was raped by them. And then Shakor tells Midular a rape joke and says "Time for a new republic", and Midular says "I know my place now, as a woman".
Whaaaaaaat ... o.O
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Exactly.
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I don't have much to say but I will say that, understandably, this thread is glazed in westernized perceptions of "developing nations".
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I am not really sure where stating that "developing nations", aka Africa for instance, being sometimes bankrupt states or corrupted officials, or at least with shitty economical and social development, considering all the even more fundamental problems they got (water, food, diseases, slaughters, civil war...), and their subsequent history post decolonization, and also how they are used and milked by the western world, is such a westernize perception, sadly... :ugh:
And then, comparing them to the inspiration behind the Minmatar Republic ?
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the Amarr saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to advance the Reclaiming.
the Gallente saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to keep the Amarr in check.
the Jovians saw the Minmatar as a pawn for their own benefit.
the Elders saw the Minmatar as a pawn, for Operation Pawn Sacrifice, to protect their own schemes.
everyone sees the Minmatar as pawns for their own reasons.
and CCP seems happy to continue with stories that back this up.
the whole thing about the Minmatar being all about self-determination and all that, and yet, they're written as being pawns. Pawns they are, and pawns they forever will be.
:S
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the Amarr saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to advance the Reclaiming.
the Gallente saw the Minmatar as a pawn, to keep the Amarr in check.
the Jovians saw the Minmatar as a pawn for their own benefit.
the Elders saw the Minmatar as a pawn, for Operation Pawn Sacrifice, to protect their own schemes.
everyone sees the Minmatar as pawns for their own reasons.
and CCP seems happy to continue with stories that back this up.
the whole thing about the Minmatar being all about self-determination and all that, and yet, they're written as being pawns. Pawns they are, and pawns they forever will be.
:S
Confirmed Sani Sabik pawns too.
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How I missed this...
Yes, the Minmatar look incompetent and without redeeming quality in PF as a nation-state, but damned if they dont cause ALL the problems.
Gee, I wonder if that's led to the complete lack of minny RPers/factional groups, especially when you consider that the few that DO exist are without fail "We hate teh Republic!!11!1!1"
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I think that's the issue. The Minmatar in themselves do not really lack of interest as a faction, especially flavour wise. They have a lot of strong pros playing in their favour as Miz pointed.
The issue is the Republic. Supporting the Republic, is similar to supporting CONCORD or the Mandate. It's like shooting oneself in the foot. Not that it's completely uninteresting imo, but be ready to spend your time admitting to everyone arguing with you "Yeah, we suck... I try to do something to improve things, no matter how stupid and incompetent my faction is, I am still loyal, for what it's worth".
Since well, basically, you have near to zero arguments that can work in your favour, so the only remaining thing to do is to admit that it's a lost cause.
That being said, now that the fail Midular republic has fallen, and replaced by the Shakor tribal council thingy, isn't there a bit of room for improvement ? Things seem to be depicted as improving on that side for the Matari, even with all the issues they have besides... There might be stuff to build around the Tribal lore and caravans they added in the last news on the matter.
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I think its fair to say that the Minmatar have certainly been mishandled. They have such a rich background and influences as a faction.
But now they've been regulated to Space Haiti.
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Since Gottii's here now, another thing to add to the list of things the Republic is bad at: Whoring on killmails with Dramiels.
\o\
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Since Gottii's here now, another thing to add to the list of things the Republic is bad at: Whoring on killmails with Dramiels.
\o\
To be fair Dramiels aren't that great anymore these days.
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Since Gottii's here now, another thing to add to the list of things the Republic is bad at: Whoring on killmails with Dramiels.
\o\
To be fair Dramiels aren't that great anymore these days.
This was back in the day when they were kings.
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I was an early adapter to the cheese that was the Dramiel.
And no I only KM whore on Sansha actor carriers. I was all srs bsns in pvp yo.
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I miss cheesy dramiels and easy sansha actor carrier kills...
who the fuck are mordus and how the fuck did they steal my speed and sig radius?
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I don't have much to say but I will say that, understandably, this thread is glazed in westernized perceptions of "developing nations".
Careful that you don't wander so far away from "westernised perceptions of developing nations" that you pass right through "observation of empirical events" and into "noble savage" territory.
Regarding the Minmatar, I have to agree that the problem is that the 'good things' about the faction seem to be in spite of it's society and not because of it. Neither version of the Republic has served the faction terribly well - Midular's Republic by being too weak and Shakor's Republic by being insanely hardheaded and contentious at the cost of achieving ANYTHING.
And let's not pretend the whole Elder Fleet thing wasn't a total debacle that couldn't have been achieved with a bunch of transports and a little bit of sleight-of-hand. All they had to do was arrange for a significant number of Starkmanir and Nefantar tribespeople to be bought on the open market or liberated.
Blasting Concord fucked over their supposed ally, the Gallente and the less said about their invasion of Amarr space the better, really. Any accusations that this occured solely as a result of magic space weapons is easily countered with the point that the only reason they rescued the Starkmanir was due to a Deus ex Machina buttload of Nefantar double-triple-quadruple agents.
None of which is "Shitting all over the Minmatar" it's just pointing out how weak the Lore is for the Minnies. Nobody's suggesting that they're deserving of bad writing and, let's remember that anything that stands out as egregiously awful in a setting that includes 'Space Zombie Lesbian Princess Jamyl' and 'Heil Hethler' is notable.
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I think CCP are really bad at creating things for people to be proud about in terms of factions in general, to be honest. They portray every single government in the game as a bunch of undiplomatic screwups constantly compromising their own values and making terrible and internally contradictory decisions at every turn. Plus, conflicts always resolve in ways that are indecisively pyrrhic and miserable for everyone involved, with no one getting what they want.
CCP content secretly written by George R.R. Martin. :yar:
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Is it strange that as a Caldari RPer, I actually like the Minmatar faction and envy them in some ways? The Matari have some of the most innovative and ingenious engineers and scientists in the cluster, and their fighting spirit and ability to endure and survive every hardship thrown their way are traits which any Caldari character would recognize and admire from afar.
The Matari also have a vibrant cultural background which is quite unbeatable in its variety and richness. I wish Caldari stuff has more of that.
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Mizhara and Ava...
I certainly understand the frustration, anger and bitterness you both express regarding the Minmatar. I also know you both are very passionate about them.
With that said, I think a lot more could be accomplished in the area of getting support and interest in the Minmatar (especially from other RPers) if you both didn't respond to threads like this one with such venom.
I'm not trying to call you both out...even though I guess that's what I'm doing. (Sorry).
I feel where you're both coming from, but this thread is actually a pretty good discussion and (whether Veik intended it this way or not, I can't say), seems to be more about people coming to the table in support of the Minmatar not in opposition to them. It's more like a unified "we recognize that things could be handled better for the Minmatar" not "wow, these guys suck."
Just my interjection. Sorry.
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Is it strange that as a Caldari RPer, I actually like the Minmatar faction and envy them in some ways?
I don't think so at all, I mean I play an Amarr character and I (the player) find Minmatar culture fascinating to read and interact with - even if Arkon, the character, thinks it may be a little backward and not proper hehe ^_^
I imagine most people who play characters who are loyal to one faction or another do not necessarily preclude themselves, as players, from enjoying the lore surrounding other factions. :)
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Well the thread is more about the good sides of the Republic... I don't think the Minmatar as a whole are hopeless. The Republic however... Between Skymother, Elders, corruption, Midular failure, Shakor blandness...
We really lack that demographics article. The Republic is hard to define actually, we don't have much.
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I think that's honestly kind of the point (far be it from me to defend CCP's bad writing).
The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, prior to the arrival of the Amarr. Now, centuries later, they've won their freedom (mostly) but the climate of the cluster is very different now than it was before.
They've been denied the chance to gradually grow and adapt to the changing of the cluster and are instead finding themselves in an extremely different cluster (politically, scientifically, etc) than the one they knew before. They've also had the Republic kind of thrust onto them as a way of trying to "modernize" their leadership (you can blame the Gallente for this).
The Republic doesn't work because the Minmatar, as a people, aren't really looking for it to work. They're still identifying as tribes and clans. They're a scattered and disharmonized people that are trying to find themselves, first and foremost.
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The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, ...
Uh, I'm not quite so sure about that 'peace and harmony' thing. As far as I remember after a time of outright war between the clans they achieved a state of relative peace and cooperation: But that might very well still be far from 'achieving true peace and harmony'.
It's not that the clannish, tribal nature was forced on them by the Amarr: Those divisions surely were very well alive in that time of supposed 'true peace and harmony'. To imagine that the ancient tensions between the tribes, which we see alive and well nowadays, fell entirely silent for any serious amount of time before the Amarr invaded, just to arise fresh and vital after the Rebellion, is kind of a weird picture.
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The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, ...
Uh, I'm not quite so sure about that 'peace and harmony' thing. As far as I remember after a time of outright war between the clans they achieved a state of relative peace and cooperation: But that might very well still be far from 'achieving true peace and harmony'.
It's not that the clannish, tribal nature was forced on them by the Amarr: Those divisions surely were very well alive in that time of supposed 'true peace and harmony'. To imagine that the ancient tensions between the tribes, which we see alive and well nowadays, fell entirely silent for any serious amount of time before the Amarr invaded, just to arise fresh and vital after the Rebellion, is kind of a weird picture.
It is possible to have tension between factions without outright bloodshed or utter deadlock. In some ways tension is useful as a driver of social change & growth. Certainly before the invasion it seems the Minmatar had a functioning global government, capable of driving their expansion into space & colonisation of other planets.
It is difficult to be certain, but I get the impression that Matari society functions by accepting that each clan has it's purpose & place. To take up a given role in society you need to be a member of, or marry into, or be adopted by, one of the clans that fill it. Not a very democratic way of doing things. But one that might work given the consent of the populace.
As for the core governments doing dumb things. Falcon made a comment to the effect that they are all very arrogant and not inclined to listen to capsuleer groups. However rich, powerful or loyal they might be. We are useful but dangerous tools to them. Nothing more.
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The Minmatar were a vibrant culture that achieved true peace and harmony when no one else had, ...
Uh, I'm not quite so sure about that 'peace and harmony' thing. As far as I remember after a time of outright war between the clans they achieved a state of relative peace and cooperation: But that might very well still be far from 'achieving true peace and harmony'.
It's not that the clannish, tribal nature was forced on them by the Amarr: Those divisions surely were very well alive in that time of supposed 'true peace and harmony'. To imagine that the ancient tensions between the tribes, which we see alive and well nowadays, fell entirely silent for any serious amount of time before the Amarr invaded, just to arise fresh and vital after the Rebellion, is kind of a weird picture.
Perhaps "true peace and harmony" was too strong of a phrase.
However, the tribal nature of the Minmatar existed long before their contact with the Empire. I was simply referencing a line that I remember reading (forgive me for not being able to find it at this time) that at the height of their Empire, the Minmatar had put their past wars behind them and were largely a unified, harmonized race prior to the Day of Darkness.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar
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This discrepancy is part of the retcons associated with Empyrean Age. Prior to that, there were still distinct inter-tribal tensions; although perhaps not on the level of open, widespread fighting the tribes still had distinct conflicts and there was definitely aggressive competition (and discrimination) on the tribal level.
Then that got written out in favor of the Minmatar Empire being as positive as possible to highlight how evil the Amarr are, a fact that benefited neither side.
Fortunately since then CCP took some minor steps to return to a more realistic, diverse view of the pre-contact Minmatar, but this has been stymied by the stagnation of lore in general.
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Awesome, thanks for the clarification Esna.
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All we know of the Minmatar prior to the Amarr arrival, was that they were bogged down into inter tribal conflicts and wars, until they started to overcome that and be considered as a "Minmatar Empire". It reminds me a bit of our RL history : wars between tribes and natives, wars between empires and kingdoms, wars between nations and coalitions, and eventually a world at "peace" while conflicts shifted to something else than conventional wars.
In any case, we know that the Brutor Tribe was an isolated tiny offshoot of the Starkmanir Tribe, the biggest of all tribes in terms of power and demographics, which was most of the time rather neutral and favored statu-quo. We also know that the Sebiestor was a small tribe living on the northern lands, not with a lot of contact with the other tribes. And that the Nefantar, second biggest tribe, was the most politically outspoken and acted like the lawful white knights, always at war with Krusual warlords. Not much info on the Thukker and Vherokior iirc. Probably a lot more diffuse and nomadic in nature ?
I have a hard time picturing those conflicts as suddenly disappearing, at best being contained in favour of their new space faring empire.
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All we know of the Minmatar prior to the Amarr arrival, was that they were bogged down into inter tribal conflicts and wars, until they started to overcome that and be considered as a "Minmatar Empire". It reminds me a bit of our RL history : wars between tribes and natives, wars between empires and kingdoms, wars between nations and coalitions, and eventually a world at "peace" while conflicts shifted to something else than conventional wars.
In any case, we know that the Brutor Tribe was an isolated tiny offshoot of the Starkmanir Tribe, the biggest of all tribes in terms of power and demographics, which was most of the time rather neutral and favored statu-quo. We also know that the Sebiestor was a small tribe living on the northern lands, not with a lot of contact with the other tribes. And that the Nefantar, second biggest tribe, was the most politically outspoken and acted like the lawful white knights, always at war with Krusual warlords. Not much info on the Thukker and Vherokior iirc. Probably a lot more diffuse and nomadic in nature ?
I have a hard time picturing those conflicts as suddenly disappearing, at best being contained in favour of their new space faring empire.
The fact that those very diverse tribes managed to come together as a body politic and form a state is an achievement in itself. I have kind of seen the Minmatar Republic as something of an equivalent of modern Iraq in its composition of varying demographics. It's mostly made up of Shia, Sunni and Kurds and they would typically be at each others' throats, but they're all Iraqis for better or worse.
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Skymother
Almost forgotten about that, was that a CCP Dropbear project?
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I don't think ... ? Wasn't it already around TEA, the-guy-we-shall-not-say-the-name's stuff ?
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First mention of 'Project Skymother' I can find is in the chronicle "Present Pieces" by CCP Morlock. Very little information is given about it there, aside from that it is a ship of presumably colossal proportions.
Not until Templar One did we get any hint of what it actually is.
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Recently I've been pondering the Minmatar and for myself it seems that in regards to their portrayal in the lore and fiction the Republic and the Minmatar people in general do not have anything positive about their society and culture. When I go through the lore of the Minmatar and the Republic:
- They were militarily defeated by the Amarr Empire and the majority became enslaved.
- They rebelled, but they only succeeded because they were assisted by the Federation and the Jove.
- The Minmatar create a Republic but it is depicted as so terrible due to internecine tribal factionalism, official corruption, and a failing economy a significant majority would rather live in the Federation or join a criminal cartel.
- To reinforce how terrible the Republic is, people feel becoming a criminal and all that entails is a better life than living there.
- Republic military successes are never actually a success:
- The assault on CONCORD and the Empire results in the almost complete destruction of the Minmatar Fleets. Fleets that took decades to construct, and which were funded by economic development funds from the Federation. Essentially, the Republic embezzled all the money that could have been used to build up their economy and create jobs resulting in decades of poverty and unemployment only for their Grand Plan to be derped in a day.
- Republic leadership in government is typified by a complete lack of Statecraft, or foresight. Instead, they are portrayed as people who can never see beyond their nose and are easily angered into doing dumb things like Colelie.
- They come for their people, and only end up with a lot of people they cannot support economically. Welcome to the Republic, you are free from slavery, may you enjoy the liberties of unemployment.
I could go on, but it just seems like that in an attempt to make the Minmatar and the Republic as some kind of "underdogs" to root for CCP has just ended up giving them every single possible third world trope in their lore, fiction, style, and presentation that the society seems to end up being written at present as some kind of parody that can accomplish little on their own militarily, economically, or politically.
In comparison to the other major powers in Eve, I have to ask: Is the Republic actually good at anything?
-A civilization that had not know warfare in 1000 years was defeated by an empire many many times their size which already had VASTLY superior technology and military might. Essentially they were bombard from orbit and had absolutely no chance at all.
-After roughly 700 years of slavery they still preserved enough of their culture and will to fight to rebel with no education or weapons against the same VASTLY superior force.
-The vast majority of the 'republic is terrible' actually comes from role-players over eventuating parts of the lore and treating descriptions of the first republic (which was purged in a very violent day as soon as they were able) and sarkon as if it is the way the entire republic is. Essentially role-players have repeated 'republic is shit' so much trying to show how bad it is for them and QQ that the majority of the community actually believes it. PF really has very little support for this at best. Look at the facts: nation the size of the state put up in less than 150 years. So no, the republic is not shit at building infrastructure, mary sue minmatar role-players are just shit at reading PF.
-see above
-the cost of a few dreads and some supers and a titan is so fucking tiny to the GDP of a big four faction except when it comes to people spewing nonsense about the minmatar republic. 1/3 of their fleet was destroyed in an ATTACK ON THE TWO MOST POWERFUL FORCES IN NEW EDEN in which they won every objective and got out with yea like 2/3's of their fleet. It was a suicide mission at the absolute last second brought on by the empire's discovery of the surviving starkmanir and it is without a doubt one of the most brilliantly executed operations in new eden's history. They went toe-to-toe with concord and the empire and hit them so hard and fast that both were reeling in shock unable to defend themselves. literally took a impossible to predict terran super weapon and the return of the empress to keep them from a flawless victory.
-Republic leadership is a tribal society with different priorities than 'be diplomatic' and they have a very fucking good grasp of statecraft considering they have attacked concord, the empire, and the federation and kept going on even keel with all the above.
-the population of enslaved matari is like, 10+ trillion and none of the big 4 EVEN THE EMPIRE is capable of taking on +10 trillion people. Could the caldari state double its population? The empire sure as hell can't afford to lose them the economy would collapse overnight. And there are a number of news articles detailing how every single returned slave is given free medical care, education and supported by their tribes/clans etc
Lots of people read between the lines to get the minmatar is shit interpretation when empirically, it really fucking isn't or could not be given what it is and how young it is. imo its the most OP of all the nations and is almost unbelievable in what they have accomplished. community perception has changed to minmatar is shit before I started playing but it really doesn't have much at all to stand on in written lore. I blame a lack of loyalists championing the cause for a long time and a lot of pirate types throwing all the mary sue shit backgrounds they can. Not to mention so many people have a hate boner for shakor that they will literally use descriptions of the first republic under karin to show why shaker is so evil and bad for the republic now. Life in the republic is a higher standard of living than the empire on average They have better infrastructure overall than the federation on average (mostly due to it being all new construction with new tech and no fault of the federation) and prior to the day of darkness were said to have the best engineering in new eden.
TL;DR yea, lots of stuff. read some of the PF about it, its actually a pretty fucking badass super libertarian society.
edit: sorry for the written tone, i haven't slept in 2 days so I got a little spergy.
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I'm REALLY going to have to read something that suggests the Republic has a higher standard of living than the Empire and better infrastructure than the freaking Republic.
I'll grant you that the Republic isn't as fail as some people suggest but I think you just jumped the shark, Aya.
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I'm REALLY going to have to read something that suggests the Republic has a higher standard of living than the Empire and better infrastructure than the freaking Republic.
I'll grant you that the Republic isn't as fail as some people suggest but I think you just jumped the shark, Aya.
I agree strongly. The Republic is also most certainly not sporting a 'super libertarian society'.
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I'm REALLY going to have to read something that suggests the Republic has a higher standard of living than the Empire and better infrastructure than the freaking Republic.
I'll grant you that the Republic isn't as fail as some people suggest but I think you just jumped the shark, Aya.
I agree strongly. The Republic is also most certainly not sporting a 'super libertarian society'.
The very fact that the Voluval will have a massive influence on how the Republic views you shows that it is far from libertarian.
I still believe that the Minmatar as a culture is okay, but the Minmatar REPUBLIC is not much to be proud of (except for that Elder Fleet giving Concord a black eye and proceed to evacuate entire tribes from Amarrian space in a single day before withdrawing because of a superweapon, but I argue that this had nothing to do with the Republic and everything to do with the Elders and the Thukkers and their masterful theft of Federation monies). I also find it refreshing that the Minmatar Republic is one of those places where a capsuleer or a DUSTer wouldn't be put on a pedestal and will be treated the same as everyone else as their age and their tattoos warrant it.
It is one of those places where I can roleplay having Elmund, space immortal, be treated as a wet-behind-the-ears whelp whenever he does go home. Far as his clan is concerned, he IS a wet-behind-the-ears whelp who needs to be knocked down a few pegs every so often.
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I.. do not find the Republic particularly shitty like some like to describe it, yes. I just find that it lacks... qualities. It's a bit bland and apathetic. But that's also probably because we are still waiting on a lot of source material regarding it.
I also think now, having re read the thread, that the Minmatar have very present redeeming qualities, and unlike most people, I still think that Midular's Republic was maybe a bit meek on the intergalactic scene, but it was realistic and much more subtle. It was a progressive, fledging civilization that actually tried to fit in better with their pairs in New Eden.
I don't think the Republic is very libertarian, no. Maybe a bit more before Shakor since it was more based on the gallente model, but still... no. However, I think it is described as a place where open-mindedness, no-nonsense ideals regarding everything in life, is strong, and also in contrast with a lot of xenophobic and racial issues. What strikes me as another value is that it's probably the place where you will find the most equality overall, even with their very regimented social structure.
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I also like to note that the Minmatar tribe system shares some similarities with the caste system, though the castes seem to have equal standing in their society. It seems that here, one tribe specialises in one thing (Sebiestor in R&D and Engineering, Brutor in military, Vherokhior in trade and scholar professions). I imagine that one's tribe is going to end up influencing his future and his career path in the Republic. Think about it. If a Sebiestor doesn't want to be an engineer or a scientist, doesn't want to study Mathematics, and wants to go out into the woods and be a lumberjack, how will he be treated? Probably like a pariah, I would imagine. Not exactly the response of a Libertarian society.
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Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...
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Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...
It's basically why almost all Republic projects are collaborative efforts. To govern one world, Sebiestor takes care of the administration and the civil engineering, Brutor deals with defense, Vherokhior deals with the funding and trade agreements, etc etc etc. One tribe simply isn't going to do it all, if they do it conventionally at any rate.
Perhaps it wasn't always this way, especially before the Day of Darkness where tribal identities are intact. Perhaps they latched onto these tribal professions as an attempt to find an identity.
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I'm with Lyn on this one. I believe the Tribes are fairly generalized, and while some have proven more capable than others in some respects, the differences probably arise more from societal pressures. As long as you are supporting your family, supporting your Tribe, I think you will be viewed in a marginally positive light. While a simple farmer may impact far fewer Matari than a warp-drive engineer, their function and contribution are recognized. However, this is not so much addressing political accomplishments.
Regarding the state of the Republic; given the situation the Matari faced in the wake of the Great Rebellion, reliance upon the Gallente in the formation of institutions that could answer the rapid expansion doesn't seem unreasonable. The friction that a lot of players see between the Tribal traditionalists and Republic loyalists seems to be a misattribution to me: many on the former side view the Republic as a foreign imposition, while some on the latter feel that the Tribals are defeatist or, in the worst case, 'race traitors'. My personal feeling is that the Republic was largely necessary to the survival of the Matari as a single body after the rebellion, but that it is a transitional form of governance which recent events indicate is on the wane. Some research into the recovery of failed states here on Earth supports the idea that, among the many factors contributing to rapid and successful recovery, were leaders who embody ethnic representation and identity as well as display traditionalism and rationality. In the Republic, they have re-institutionalized the title of Sanmatar, reconstituted the Parliament along Tribal lines, and elevated the Tribal Council above it in all non-trivial matters. The Tribal chiefs, along with Shakor, seem to be exemplifying the qualities cited, and one might look at statistics like the precipitous drop in crime as indicative of strengthening statehood.
This does not address the cultural cooling off that inspires many ethnic Minmatar to remain in the Federation, but I don't think those Matari are making a political choice.
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Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...
It's basically why almost all Republic projects are collaborative efforts. To govern one world, Sebiestor takes care of the administration and the civil engineering, Brutor deals with defense, Vherokhior deals with the funding and trade agreements, etc etc etc. One tribe simply isn't going to do it all, if they do it conventionally at any rate.
Perhaps it wasn't always this way, especially before the Day of Darkness where tribal identities are intact. Perhaps they latched onto these tribal professions as an attempt to find an identity.
So, basically, they would do it totally differently than when they started off as isolated tribes in the planet in the past ? Mind me, it's just a honest question I think is worthy to ask no ?
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I wouldn't take the tribal stereotypes that seriously, after all, not all the security agents are Brutor. I think it is more, there is a cultural predisposition towards something, like if you were a Sebbie who just wanted to be a strong a warrior, that might not be in line with expectations perhaps, but I think it would be socially acceptable. It seems to me that the tribes are much looser in this aspect than a caste system.
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Yeah, I'm with Valentina and Lyn, I don't think the tribes are anywhere near that structured from my experience. An individual clan might have a lot of specialists in one area, but I think that would more likely be a result of where they are then who they are. A clan on a mining asteroid is going to have a lot of miners and engineers, a clan on a farming world is going to have a lot of farmers, etc.
The tribal stereotypes seem like just that to me, stereotypes.
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My opinion is that clans will specialise, and encourage members to work in related fields. But tribes will cover a broad range of occupations, perhaps with trends to favour certain areas.
Ideally tribal leaders at all levels would expect their word to be final. However ideally they wouldn't stay leaders for long if they make a lot of bad decisions.
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Tribes and Clans
To the Minmatar mindset, the most important thing in life is to be able to take care of one's self, and although kin and family are important, most Minmatar prefer to identify themselves in terms of clan or tribe rather than along family lines. The Vherokior are a notable exception to this, having considerable identification with the family, while the Thukker are more oriented around their caravans. While the seven great tribes and their different ways are the clearest indication of the unique culture of the Minmatar, the fine grain of their heritage is given its texture by the clans.
A clan can have any number of families of a given tribe in it, and its size is dictated largely by the traditional activities of its member families. Most clans have a tendency to concentrate on a particular area of industry or related professions. Minmatar clans that live mainly on planets might focus on agricultural or heavy industrial activities; others who travel around New Eden may concentrate on mercantilism or the like--or perhaps pirating. Clans also maintain their special identities through artistic and literary pursuits and styles unique to them.
In the distant past, the clans constantly warred against each other. In the larger scheme of things, however, the Matari have learned that cooperation is important, and although the clans still try to maintain their regional and ideological identities, they usually put themselves forward as a unified whole when dealing with other races. Clans are distinct from circles in having a much more general social and political function, together with having a particular approach to several areas of life, such as work, art, and sport. For example, a circle that specializes in electronic engineering would not at the same time formally specialize in rhetorical poetry. Traditional clans, which most nonrenegade clans are, do not admit members from other tribes and usually limit themselves to certain families of the tribe.
Circles
A circle can crudely be thought of as a hybrid of an adoptive clan and a workers' guild. It is important to note that a member of a circle still remains a member of her familial clan but will usually join a circle to engage in a particular line of work or carry out some specific project. Each circle is a form of tribal syndicate brought together for various specific purposes. Some circle have a long-term, permanent existence; others are more temporary and operate in the short or medium term. In the Thukker tribe, the Great Caravans are, broadly speaking, equivalent to the familiar clans of the Minmatar tribes, while the smaller, usually specialized caravans and subcaravans are analogous to the circles.
The relationships between familial clans and circles are a tremendously complex social area. Practices different from circle to circle, but when an individual joins a circle, there usually some kind of buy-in--a common analogy is to a wedding dowry--whereby the new member brings a certain amount of resources to the circle's common treasury. This can affect the complex area of reputation, both the individual's and their familial clan's, with regard to the circle. Many circles are quite naturally internal to a given tribe, but inevitably--particularly during the Amarr occupation and later in the republic period--some cross-tribe circles came into being. Almost all circles cross family and clan lines, on the other hand, one of the original purposes of circles being to share knowledge within the tribe.
Circles were occasionally a source of controversy in the early Minmatar Republic, with accusations that some circles were secret societies wielding enormous power or, perhaps more likely, little more than organized crime groups. The Minmatar military, while formally organized in a typical military hierarchy, is also known to be crisscrossed by various circles, only adding to the complexities of running armed forces where clan and tribal ties play a significant role. Additionally, numerous Minmatar corporations were founded and continue to be run by the largest circles. The web of reletionships and reputation surrounding these often quite powerful groupings is simply beyond the understanding of any outsider, given how much of is informal and mediated by convention.
Growing Up Minmatar
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Even in the case of birth in the Minmatar Republic or aboard the caravans of the Thukker tribe, discovering one's place among the Minmatar is a path and not a destination. The son of a clan chief may have certain advantages over other children, but only for so long as he can justify and earn them. Rites of passage, contests, and other traditional rituals help young Minmatar discover what is best for them and their people. Failing or succeeding in these tests determines a Minmatar's initial place in the community. These challenges are not only physical, but mental and social. As the Minmatar grow and develop, they continue to devise tests for themselves. Many young Minmatar join a circle, a group of like-minded Minmatar that have joined together in pursuit of a specific goal or to work on a given project. Membership in a circle is not necessarily for life--or determined by ties of family, clan, and tribe--and it is usual for young Minmatar to leave their first circle and go on to other things. Progression, advancement, and self-reliance are key concepts in the Minmatar mindset.
By the time a Minmatar reaches adolescence, she will have a good idea of where her natural talents lie, and so will her family, clan, and tribe at large. At adolescence, Minmatar undergo the Voluval, a coming-of-age ceremony common across all clans and tribes. The Voluval ends with the youth receiving a special form of tattoo marking her emergence into adulthood, along with all her responsibility toward family, clan, and tribe. Afterward, the newly recognized adult usually begins serious study and practice in those areas where she shows promise. The exact form of this study varies greatly. Some Minmatar are apprenticed to a lone tradesman, while others join circles dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. Many simply enroll in academies with thousands of similarly talented youths. Upon completing her education, a Minmatar enters society fully, with all the choices and responsibilities that entails.
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Are you sure that it goes that far ? I mean, that most Sebiestors are engineers, etc? I would expect them to have a leaning on that, with many famous individuals, but most of them... ? It doesn't sound like a self sustaining system if everyone is a scientist...
It's basically why almost all Republic projects are collaborative efforts. To govern one world, Sebiestor takes care of the administration and the civil engineering, Brutor deals with defense, Vherokhior deals with the funding and trade agreements, etc etc etc. One tribe simply isn't going to do it all, if they do it conventionally at any rate.
Perhaps it wasn't always this way, especially before the Day of Darkness where tribal identities are intact. Perhaps they latched onto these tribal professions as an attempt to find an identity.
So, basically, they would do it totally differently than when they started off as isolated tribes in the planet in the past ? Mind me, it's just a honest question I think is worthy to ask no ?
That is what I was thinking. I recall reading in Source (which I can't access at this time. Will verify when able) that typically, when the Republic plans to colonise a world, they will divvy up the tasks and responsibilities to the tribes as according to the stereotypes (as Saede puts it): Administration to Sebiestors, trade to the Vherokhior, security to the Brutor, etc etc.
And considering that these specialisations are very much a tribal identity, far as I can see it, two scenarios come to mind.
Supposed that there are two equally qualified engineers, one Brutor and one Sebiestor, both graduating from the Republic University with honours, and both are applying for a position in Boundless Creation. Which of these two are more likely to actually get the position, and why?
Inversely, what about military? Suppose that is this highly distinguished unit, half of its members being Sebiestor and the other half being Brutor. The captain of this unit is KIA and had to be replaced. Two candidates were brought forth, one Sebiestor and one Brutor. Both the Sebiestor and the Brutor had shown exemplary leadership qualities. Which of them is more likely to be promoted into captaincy, and why?
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Well Boundless Creation is a Brutor company, so I'd assume the Brutor graduate would have a better chance, but I kind of see the point you're making? I think it shouldn't be too heavily overemphasized though. I figure there's plenty of clans that still mostly just do their own thing.
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As I understood him, his main point was that tribal identities and thus expectancies to tribe members are in conflict with libertarianism:
(...) I imagine that one's tribe is going to end up influencing his future and his career path in the Republic. Think about it. If a Sebiestor doesn't want to be an engineer or a scientist, doesn't want to study Mathematics, and wants to go out into the woods and be a lumberjack, how will he be treated? Probably like a pariah, I would imagine. Not exactly the response of a Libertarian society.
Does ones tribe influence which profession one will be more likely to take up? Quite probably, I'd say. Would a Sebiestor lumberjack be treated as a pariah? Maybe not exactly, but I imagine that he sure would have to live with being rediculed to some extent.
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As I understood him, his main point was that tribal identities and thus expectancies to tribe members are in conflict with libertarianism:
(...) I imagine that one's tribe is going to end up influencing his future and his career path in the Republic. Think about it. If a Sebiestor doesn't want to be an engineer or a scientist, doesn't want to study Mathematics, and wants to go out into the woods and be a lumberjack, how will he be treated? Probably like a pariah, I would imagine. Not exactly the response of a Libertarian society.
Does ones tribe influence which profession one will be more likely to take up? Quite probably, I'd say. Would a Sebiestor lumberjack be treated as a pariah? Maybe not exactly, but I imagine that he sure would have to live with being rediculed to some extent.
That is the point I was trying to make. Thanks.
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I agree with Arnulf. While a Tribe may produce noteworthy individuals in certain fields, they are largely autonomous and would require all social roles to be filled within the Tribe in order to function. Sebiestor may be noteworthy for great engineers, but there are also Sebiestor shamen, soldiers, farmers, doctors, bureaucrats, and so on.
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I agree with Arnulf. While a Tribe may produce noteworthy individuals in certain fields, they are largely autonomous and would require all social roles to be filled within the Tribe in order to function. Sebiestor may be noteworthy for great engineers, but there are also Sebiestor shamen, soldiers, farmers, doctors, bureaucrats, and so on.
This.
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That's the whole point of a Band/Clan/Tribe level setup, they're supposed to be self-sufficient because they aren't supposed to have the globalised trade of the Nationstates.
The idea that a bunch of Sebiestior would stand around looking at the goats in blank bemusement because they're waiting for a Vherokior herder to come milk them is a bit silly...
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Now I think about it.
There is a series by C.J.Cherryh, the first book is called Foreigner. It's about a colony ship that has a jump drive malfunction that strands it light years from known space with an inhabited by some (large, dark skinned, humanoid) aliens who are at a late steam age level of technology.
A faction of the humans initiates first contact, and it almost ends in utter disaster because they fundamentally misunderstand how the aliens relate to each other. Their society is all about personal obligation to each other and to various groups. These networks are largely independent of trivial things like location. The misunderstanding leads to offence, which leads to a war that almost wipes out the humans. When the main part of the book starts interaction between the small human enclave & the rest of the world is handled by a specialist trained translator & xenologist.
Possibly Minmatar society might run along these lines, only to a lesser degree. What is important is your obligation to the clan, and theirs to you. The clan to the tribe and the tribe to the Minmatar people as a whole.
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the old minmatar empire's technological craftsmanship being unsurpassed, I had a thought about that earlier.
Greek bronze helmets. They were made from a single piece of bronze, hammered into shape. This requires a great deal of skill and craftsmanship, and is or was thought to be impossible to replicate, even by modern blacksmiths.
However, it's still a bronze helmet. A well made iron or steel helmet is possible, and performs better, while requiring less skill to make.
so the old minmatar empire things could be similar - artifacts that show a very high level of craftsmanship, beyond anything in contemporary new eden, but which don't necessarily outperform contemporary artifacts of similar function.
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That's the whole point of a Band/Clan/Tribe level setup, they're supposed to be self-sufficient because they aren't supposed to have the globalised trade of the Nationstates.
The idea that a bunch of Sebiestior would stand around looking at the goats in blank bemusement because they're waiting for a Vherokior herder to come milk them is a bit silly...
I'm not implying that. Just like the Chinese stereotype of the Tiger parents forcing the kids to get A+ in everything and be a doctor didn't stop the Chinese from having farmers and such providing for the country.
I'm saying that there could be a stigma attached to the idea of the Sebiestor lumberjack, the idea that the Sebiestor lumberjack might become a subject of ridicule. Even members of a rigid Caste system still has to be able to take care of themselves while providing a very specific role to the society at large. Nothing's stopping the Warrior caste to go out and hunt a deer or two if they need to to feed themselves when marching into a warzone, and nothing's stopping the Merchant caste from cooking meals using materials taken from their stocks.
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I don't think I'd compared the clan/tribe system to castes exactly though, I'd say that each tribe is more like an independent nationstate then a caste.