Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Anskek on 13 Jan 2015, 14:40
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So haven't seen this topic in a while (few months anyway). Opinions on the state of Eve RP? Thought? Ideas? Rage?
EDIT: To bluntly clarify/expand what I meant by State of the RP, I am not referring to planned events specifically. I am referring to the pulse of RP in Eve over the past few months. Not simply hidden channels where small groups engage in story arcs or whatever, but events (player events) where EVERYONE can be involved in one way or another.
So, Eve RP:
Is it recovering?
Is it stagnate with little hope to recover?
Is it dead (Jim)?
Is there a way to revive it if so?
Is it fractured?
Is it not fractured and silly to think that way?
Thoughts?
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Federation Day will be celebrated ingame around 2nd week of June as always.
Besides that, don't have time for much else.
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RP status: it's happening.
2015 hasn't been very eventful yet.
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OP expanded on and clarified.
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It's been quite enjoyable for me so far. :D
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I do the RPs. It is good.
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So one line answers are all well and good, but something a little more detailed could possibly be in order than 'It's alright.'
I look in multiple channels, at different times of the day. For the most part, it's all dead. I infer then that IF RP is happening anywhere, it's away from places anyone can see. Then I think, ok, I'm a new Eve RPer, let's see if I can find RP! *goes to public channels and see's nothing* Well shit.
'Anslo, they ask in OOC.'
If that's the case, then what, they're spirited away to the private channels of insular RP? Or what? I'm not mad or anything. Just curious. I'm only even asking the question in this thread because I can't answer it myself by just watching RP in game...cause I see none.
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Well, posting an one-line op...
At any rate, it seems plenty of fine to me. There's usually some hubbub stirring here and there. Proteus has swayed the general topic towards the sleepers for the moment, but eh.
And you can't really expect people to hang all of their underwear out in public, relations don't work like that :P
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The OP was updated but ok.
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Compared to the olden times, I think, more RP is happening away from the public channels. That said, I'm not overly active, so I'm not in the perfect position to judge. Also, a lot of people are just in other timezones than me, so it's hard to meet in game.
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Sorry, I'll elaborate.
As far as personal RP is going, I'm enjoying myself immensely. This is in part because I have a direction I'm trying to move in, plus I'm interacting other people who are managing to throw me some great curve balls.
As far as larger picture things are going, I'm feeling a bit frustrated with how things tend to devolve into the same squabbles every time, and there is a sense that players are reluctant or refuse to allow events to change or even just affect their characters. As a result, outcomes feel static.
On the whole, though, I think things are positive.
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
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I have found that it's fragmented.
I have suspicions that the RP is good in these pockets. They are like air pockets you find when you're scuba diving (I'm told) though. I unearthed Intaki RP! Oh, hello! I was able to go to IRED this one time, and that was fun, but I can understand I'm not really tremendously welcome in such places, so I wouldn't make that a habit. Sometimes you just have to have authentic food.
I'm under the impression RP is fine over there too. There seems to be Khan and Blood Raider RP. There is some RP happening around Naupilus as far as I can tell also. Given that other RP is not forthcoming, I have no choice but to flying tackle the community as hard as I can and see what gives out. I can see what Anslo's questioning is coming from.
How do new people find RP aside from luckiness? (I have been supremely lucky twice now - I'd still be lurking without at least a little introduction, just as I decided to get into PVP on my own, and got myself in the right zone by myself, but my corp helped nudge me in the right way to go about it, and introduced a community to continue to nudge me day by day.)
Not everyone is going to be willing to just skydive into social situations, martini in hand (my sudden posting certain feels that way, amongst people who have been here forever; who wants to listen to new guy shit? What do I know? But taking a huge bite out of something and worrying later is something I learned from EVE, really). The average person coming from somewhere else is probably going to wait for an opportunity to be more subtle, or give up. This is especially true for people who want to introduce a shy character that wouldn't just bust something out. I think everyone more or less agrees that the IGS isn't really indicative of what's happening in RP out there, but is more for oldbies to hash it out with each other, from what I've been hearing.
Wouldn't it be good for the community to figure out how to make getting involved more accessible? Seems to work for other parts. I think 'EVE is hard' snobism is dead. Other parts of the community have dropped this as if coming out of a daze; It's inherently 'hard', we're most all here because it's hard. Why does it also have to be artificially difficult? Given how things work in EVE, is there anything we could build to make things easier? This forum, for example, gave me the hope it exists, but it's still been sort of hard to penetrate. It could be something like also keeping a twitter list - I learned about those today. o. o I think there are options for recruiting. We just have to want it.
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Holy shit dude preeeeeeaaach. +1
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You don't find RP. You create it.
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That's all well and good but one does not simply walk into making RP. Especially with what happens when PF isn't always followed (not by disregard , but by not having been shown.)
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When I decided to try EVE a few weeks ago, I actually thought to myself: let's go out there and find scifi/cyberpunk RP! Getting into the game engine concepts was hard and I don't care for the number crunching. :D Finding RP is also not easy. I don't consider myself particularly shy, maybe a bit cautious. So, what makes the hardest part for me is the lack of visibility. Visibility has two aspects for me in this regard.
First, conversation takes place in a 'virtual virtual' chat mostly. I had the opportunity to roleplay in actual space a few times. It was real fun and immersive. But mostly it's a virtual connection between characters. The conversations are interesting and exciting from time to time. But the possibilities are very limited. No matter what happens somewhere else, your character is just staring at the IC chat. More things should happen somewhere else, in places where characters share the same actual situation!
Second, my initial expectation with EVE was, that roleplay happens by accident within space. And this seems to be impossible to me at this point. In a 'true' roleplay environment I would consider to establish spontaneous social interaction whenever I accidently meet another character in a station. I would open up a radio chanel before engaging some possible hostile character in space, trying to get some interaction going etcetera. This does not seem to be expected, desireable...or very smart in EVE :D So, ongoing roleplay is not visible in this second way. A bunch of ships clinging together in space? Better not stop by and have a look (thats what I've learned so far). Using local chat is considered a fool's tool and mostly ooc. If someone in local is ready for spontaneous RP, it's invisible.
Nevertheless, I think EVE has potential for fine roleplay. Otherwise I would not have switched from Trial to Full Account. This forum is an important medium for me too. I hope it's in-game section will expand! And last but not least, some very nice and interesting stories are going on here (meaning this forum and the things I wittnessed IC)! As a newcomer, my bottom line so far is: the community is there, but it is challenging to get a grip on it. That's my personal view, of course.
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To reply with more words as requested.
I RP in the summit, I invite people to visit me, I make mention of my place as a lace to visit. I make mention of other places to visit. I occasionally arrange to meet people at the other places. I hold conversations about things and I'm currently also trying to do corp rp. You can complain about it being fractured but that's inherent within the system. We're not all going to rp together in one big place unless it's the summit because the different factions don't get on. This isn't WoW where the only people you can talk to are other people with the same in game faction agenda. An additional problem would be the fact that there are two summits and two oocs, which does fragment things. There's nothing to do about that though and please, please let's not use it for a discussion because I am so sick of that same repetitive argument.
So
It happens, I'm enjoying it. it's pretty good, I'm doing my best to be nice to the newbies and give them options.
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Is it recovering?
Is it stagnate with little hope to recover?
Is it dead (Jim)?
For me, it's too early to tell, but it feels a bit more stagnant than it did when I left. That's par for the course though....I don't RP on Simca yet, but I do put my alt into the Summit(both of them sometimes) and it just seems like the same old same old. Granted that's only going on 2 days worth of being back around so as I stated its too early to judge just yet. :D
Is it fractured?
It's always been fractured. Ever since I started playing and looking into RP before I ever actually started it, I could kinda tell that there were groups here and groups there. Group A doesn't like Group B much and forget those Group C assholes. That's just the nature of the beast bro. Everyone interacts with each other in one of the summits on some level, and that's about it. Otherwise people tend to stay with people that share their views or with neutral parties.
Thoughts?
On a personal level most of my rp going forward is going to be mainly just me telling Simca's story to myself, and probably my girlfried since she's one of the few people I know that likes the random letters on a page that I call 'writing.' She may also get involved with Simca's in game RP since she played such a big part in getting me back in game so it's only fair she gets to play part in Simca's return as well. Simca will probably pop into one of the summits from time to time and maybe go to a few places or events, but that's all I'm really seeing for myself right now. Of course there is meeting Katrina, which I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes. All that, of course, is if I even start RPing again. Right now it's not a huge priority for me, and I just kinda wanna enjoy the game for a bit before I start getting back into open RP.
Can it be saved? I don't know, but at its core the EVE RP community is great, so I don't think it's going anywhere.
*Fixed broken quote tag. - Havo.
Thanks Havo. :cube:
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So, Eve RP:
Is it recovering?
From what?
Is it stagnate with little hope to recover?
Not by any means, no.
Is it dead (Jim)?
Dammit, I'm a Kat, not a doctor!
Is there a way to revive it if so?
The "FC Syndrome" is strong here. Think of being a GM for a storyline or host for an event as being FC. Everybody wants an FC, but nobody wants to be the FC. Too much stress of herding cats. In the same breath, these people who complain of there being no FC seem to somehow ignore those who are flailing their arms saying "Join my fleet!".
There are some out there who put in the time, effort, and fortitude to actually push something along. Halcyon's events, Nauplius' tower, Evi's Pyre Fleet, and smaller or less visible plotlines specific to each individual characters. But despite that, we still hear people suggest there is nothing or not enough going on.
Is it fractured?
No more so than any other group of disparate people, including the playerbase of EVE. The "RP Community" is not a corp, or alliance, or even a coalition. It is more comparable to an EVE profession, where seperate and even rival groups of players is expected to be found, like the Incursion community.
Incursion runners are split along several major lines. Shield fleets, Armor fleets, Shiney fleets, Low/Null fleets. They often fight with each other, and they even more often sabotage or attack each others' meta. Despite that, they are a community, when viewed from the outside. Same with us.
It's not fractured, because it was never whole, nor was it ever meant to be whole. It is what it is, a large grouping of very different people all doing a similar thing with their playtime. Assuming the "RP Community" should be something where we all hold hands is akin to assuming the same of any other facet of EVE. (Read: Silly)
Is it not fractured and silly to think that way?
See above.
Thoughts?
Stop worrying. Things are fine as they are.
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Fractured? As it should be, divided along lines of interest, personalities and so on. No more or less than it has always been.
Recovering? Myeahno. It was never dealt any kind of blow, necessitating any sort of recuperation. It just dwindled. For the most part, there's little in the way of real loss anywhere other than a completely dead Minmatar faction and it's kept aloft entirely by my (read: Miz's) raging hateboner for the Empire/Slavery and she's barely Minmatar as it is. Nothing that can be done there, really. CCP's insistence on focusing entirely on spacemagic, woooOOOoooOooormholes and cartoon villains over progressing anything at all with the main factions is the main problem and the only cure is to fix that.
Stagnated... a bit. That's what happens when the storyline comes to a screeching halt and the only progress happens way out in the periphery and the universe itself remains in stasis for years on end. Solution already mentioned, not really in the hands of the players at this point.
Dead? Wouldn't say that. The Amarr have a somewhat vibrant community if the channels I've seen is any indication. The Caldari have some great stuff going on with PIE-RED spearheading some great Black Rise stuff and who knows what the Fedos are up to? And there's never been any shortage of the peripheral silly stuff that seems to be the curse of every RP community out there. MinFaction is pretty much dead as players have fled to real life, various pirate/foreign factions or Holland or whatever but that's just how things go.
Revival... solution already mentioned. Progress the bloody factions. Drop nukes on them, for that matter. Shake things up so hard the entrenched sandcastles fall down and let's watch everyone scramble to build new ones.
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Stop worrying. Things are fine as they are.
You're right. It probably is, even if I don't see/am not involved with it. Whatever. A mod can nuke/close this thread at their earliest convenience.
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Getting it out of the way first, since it bears repeating (and I know I've said similar things to you before): If you spent half as much energy on actually participating in RP and displaying a constructive attitude, as you do on being abrasive, edgy, and filling channels with smacktalk and kebab memes, you probably would see the RP going on (or even be involved in it) and not have felt the need to make this thread.
The "state of RP" is not much different than it was this time last year.
- There are some new faces, a portion of whom are certainly alts of old faces; the MCT promo that CCP gave us for the holidays helped in that regard.
- There are plenty of old faces who are still around.
- There are a number of old faces who have left, are taking a break, or aren't as public as they used to be.
- Player-run events are still happening on a regular basis, and people are still going to them.
- The Summit is still one of the more active channels compared to others, primarily because of its fairly accessible nature. (Chatrooms require less 'effort' to step into than physical locations.)
- Lots of RP is happening in private among small groups. Normal and realistic.
- Impromptu RP is still best generated by someone getting off their lazy fucking ass and starting something somewhere and saying something about it in OOC and/or Summit instead of pissing and moaning about how nothing's going on.
I think that covers everything.
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Fuck you kebab is love and life.
And I know, and honestly I'd rather be me than ~constructive~ by other people's standards. I won't change for them. If that means no RP, then fuck it. I already said this thread can be closed anyway.
EDIT: Also, why should I not be abrasive? That's all I fucking got back before I actually went and did something to stop it from happening? I, of all people, have all the god damn right in the world to be abrasive given all that bullshit (which ok may=no RP, which is funny given the people who fucked with me get RP, but LOOOOLANSLOAMIRITE).
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I do think that the key issue is perception of the RP phenomenon, not so much the phenomenon itself. Some people have dead RP, others have never been better. The primary issue, if I had to point to one specific subset of RP, is the adversarial nature of EVE clashing with cross-loyalty, unscripted RP (emergent narrative conflict).
Small groups can RP fine because they generally have a set of unwritten rules, an extension of their pre-existing friendship(s). They also feel very little need to communicate their RP success unless called upon to do so, because it is usually an insular phenomenon. Output is probably feedback in threads such as this and the occasional tweet or bit of fiction. All good, but insular.
Mid-scale is cross-loyalty friends or associates RPing, either retroactively (we fought last night in game, what happened narratively?) or live (usually channel RP at this point, which is of variable 'worth' depending on who you talk to and their motivations).
The high-tier, abstract level 'meeting of minds' that the Summit et al seem to suggest exists, seems very much to be a hate-sink with reasonably well enforced rules. RP is the wild west of conflict, no mechanics to support it, he/she who spits fastest and hardest will come off as a hero to some and a seal clubbing douche to others. The need to 'win' is strong, and not just in a sense of actual victory. Coming off as IC or OOC morally superior, the better roleplayer, actually winning and argument (etc) are all sub-classifications of victory. Many of which co-exist, contributing to a cycle of conflict that could be productive, if only it weren't so self defeatingly at crossed-purposes.
At the abstract level, in my opinion, the lack of close bonds, shared history and an acceptance of where there is friction and conflict worth exploring contribute to an environment of low-level simmering toxicity. This is not necessarily a totally terrible thing; yes it can be unpleasant, but look at the innately toxic nature of any open discussion forum, including our own governments. The issue is the deadzone perception it creates. The question it raises is 'is this all there is'. Many of us know that the answer to this is no. The problem is we're the few, the old and the wise in the ways of space-make-believe.
The RP NPE is hard mode; imagine all that awful, terrible fanfiction and table top you might have engaged in irl. That at the time seemed ok because everyone else was doing it, but which if revisited would probably have you banished from the group for 'gross inability to function in any productive manner narratively speaking'? I'm talking 'Adeptus Astartes Humanist with liberal sexual values' levels of derpmode. Self-insert Wh40K fanfiction Star Trek cross-over levels of derp. These might be sins of the 7th pit, but we've all earned our pass to RP hell at some point at the table top or keyboard. usually far before we'd subject ourselves to the horror of online interaction with strangers.
Now take that long, rambling, shudder inducing self-awareness of your teenage roleplaying sins and imagine someone stepping into the Summit or OOC, well aware of this phenomenon of 'original sin' and thinking 'these guys are arguing a LOT. I'm going to look stupid. Lurk mode engaged'. Deadzone perception achieved.
Add to this the constant perception of even passingly conversant/knowledgeable newbros as alts, and we have a circlejerk perception of stagnant Rp kept churning through use of alternate personas. NPRP (NPERP being something else entirely) is a battle of a high proportion of introverts, trying to do something they enjoy, with other introverts, while in constant fear of group judgement.
How do we fix this? I ask - why do we need to? Raise awareness of RP corps (those that 'do shit' and 'don't do shit' alike - RP is a many faceted thing after all and some prefer the fully narrative approach). Grassroots the whole thing - good group RP leads to a support for your ideals. Support leads to confidence, confidence leads to participation on less solid foundations, held up by your friends and seeking to explore those bits of RP that scratch or rub at the edges of your own.
There's nothing really to 'fix'. Abstract level Rp is merged into the EVE meta. it is a competitive thunderdome that only functions smoothly when all involved know that fair play is pretty much moderator whims made manifest and down to the individuals involved. Get thee like-minded fellows, and the clusterfuck rapidly becomes far less brutal - and you can always just nope out and sneer/laugh or philosophize about it to those friends if the toxicity rises beyond the usual levels.
Tl;Dr: The more abstract and boundless you Rp, the more vectors shite can fly in from. People don't like getting pelted with shite (usually). The fear of shite leads to the avoidance of shite. Thus perception of deadzone and misperception of the quantity of shite being much larger than is actual becomes the norm. My Suggestion: Find like minded individuals prior to entering the shitstorm for comfort/support/fallback position.
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Second, my initial expectation with EVE was, that roleplay happens by accident within space. And this seems to be impossible to me at this point. In a 'true' roleplay environment I would consider to establish spontaneous social interaction whenever I accidently meet another character in a station. I would open up a radio chanel before engaging some possible hostile character in space, trying to get some interaction going etcetera. This does not seem to be expected, desireable...or very smart in EVE :D So, ongoing roleplay is not visible in this second way. A bunch of ships clinging together in space? Better not stop by and have a look (thats what I've learned so far). Using local chat is considered a fool's tool and mostly ooc. If someone in local is ready for spontaneous RP, it's invisible.
Quoting this specifically. I think you would be very pleasantly surprised Haria, about how much in space RP is possible in certain places. Like, my rule has always been 'local is in character' maybe the other person isn't roleplaying back at me, maybe they're confused by what I'm saying, but if you have their ship warp scrambled? They tend to pay attention.
I've had some awesome RP generated out of space actions. Escorting newbies who wander into Origin back out, shouting down Amarrians in the warzone while plexing, lots of things. You just kind of need to be willing to put yourself out there. If I see I'm in local with only one other person? Maybe I'll say something semi-mysterious to them in local.
By and large I definitely agree with Morwen, Kat, and Mizhara. The people I tend to hear complaining the most loudly about there not being RP tend to also be the people who refuse to step out of their comfort zones, put themselves out there, or even, gasp, dare I say it, pro-actively initiate things! the EVE RP community has a bad case of Lesbian Sheep syndrome. There's a few people, but not nearly enough, willing to wear the pants, create content for others, and drive the story forward. People want to be spoon fed content. They don't want to have to work for it, go looking for it, or anything like that. This happens outside of RP too, as I'm sure you've noticed Anskebab. There's a lot of people who'll complain about being bored but are unwilling to take a fleet out themselves to alleviate that boredom, they want someone to do it for them.
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This happens outside of RP too, as I'm sure you've noticed Anskebab. There's a lot of people who'll complain about being bored but are unwilling to take a fleet out themselves to alleviate that boredom, they want someone to do it for them.
We purge them.
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The counter point, and there is some amount of evidence of it on this forum, is that on several occasions someone does suggest doing something, and then a bunch of people pile on with statements like:
"this isn't something that any of my characters would participate in" - then why did you post ?
"Not interested, also I would express disapproval towards anyone who did express interest" - okay ?
which only creates the impression of people wanting to stop others from RPing, for OOC reasons.
No Fun Allowed.
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You're better at wording things than I am.
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Fuck you kebab is love and life.
And I know, and honestly I'd rather be me than ~constructive~ by other people's standards. I won't change for them. If that means no RP, then fuck it. I already said this thread can be closed anyway.
EDIT: Also, why should I not be abrasive? That's all I fucking got back before I actually went and did something to stop it from happening? I, of all people, have all the god damn right in the world to be abrasive given all that bullshit (which ok may=no RP, which is funny given the people who fucked with me get RP, but LOOOOLANSLOAMIRITE).
*pets sweet anskek* No, I think asking these questions, even with getting confused responses telling you it's not necessary is still totally worthwhile from a meta perspective. I've enjoyed reading the responses to this. It's constructive in its own way, thanks for de-necroing some of these threads for us noobs, they have been fun and encouraging. If that's what you like to do, "you do you", I say. That's the EVE way in the end.
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I'm going to reiterate that I think some of the problem is, as always, the expectation that if you aren't doing the right thing in EVE it is because you weren't thinking, which translates very quickly to 'dumb'. In a lot of cases - Has any of you had a parent that could not believe you didn't know how to do something because it was 'obvious'? I've heard this story quite a bit. Firstly, to most intelligent people lots of things are 'obvious' after they're pointed out, but sometimes the connection has to be made first. You want to kick yourself after of course, because obviously, but it's better if veterans anticipate that rather than shit on it. I like a lot of the suggestions posted to this thread. Maybe we could make a master post with some of these pointers of how to get involved?
I think we can still use people that don't have the pants and/or balls to do it themselves. I'd love to have those people, it makes for variety. What we're doing though, is thoroughly turning those people off. Not having enough FCs can still also be a problem of course. This is belling the cat. I'm willing to take on some content generation but I need some support, since I'm new.
I think LouDou has a point, too, and there was a thread recently about letting the noobs get their stories out of their systems, so to speak. The lore hasn't moved in a while - I think it's okay to rehash some things. Of course I say that as a new RPer, but... That's not my fault. \o.o/
I think Aelisha has made some really interesting observations, too. I want to agree with raising 'awareness'. I mentioned recruiting and someone else mentioned that RP is not like a corp or alliance, but a playstyle. I know faction warfare recruits all day as a playstyle. Our players seem to be found everywhere going heeyyyyy you know what's great? We are so proud of ourselves it's almost ridiculous, and clearly one sided. There's plenty in FW that's boring. Some of it is preaching to the choir circlejerking and some of that makes people in Twitch channels join us. There's an inherent pride there though that I don't really feel from RPers. (Actually, I do sometimes! It seems to be hot and cold, rather than the blazing feels of militia). I think good energy is important. Everyone waffled on getting in on RP at some juncture, in some game. We should want to make it seem appealing. I think it's a great way to flavour the game, for example. I'm surprised at all the secret RPers in militia? I don't know how to connect with these people. It's possible they're solo RPing, just like some people solo mission. (So, that's cool o.o But my point is more that it actually has added value for your game!) I've basically been solo RPing this whole time myself, really.
I will totally agree with lack of FC. I think as FedRP, this might be a crux point. Many of these other groups have great, or at least prolific content creators behind them. I'd do this more myself but it's difficult to know where to start. /jitters Again, if anyone wants to help me get my bearings, I'm willing. Dammit you Gallentes, if there was ever a bunch of cats to be herded, it's us. I don't think a single one of us has the same alignment.
(Also, I don't think fractured was quite meant the way a lot of people took it, but point taken anyway, I'd say.)
And, for the record, I hope people aren't just trying to 'win'? RP is ultimately cooperative. Even when you're fighting it's for the gud fites. If anything you want to arrange for material with the enemy, if there's nothing forthcoming. We've done it, it's great. When people refuse, it's pretty disappointing. We just want to play the game after all. \o.o / You might stand to lose a little bit, but ultimately, everyone wins.
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The counter point, and there is some amount of evidence of it on this forum, is that on several occasions someone does suggest doing something, and then a bunch of people pile on with statements like:
"this isn't something that any of my characters would participate in" - then why did you post ?
....
which only creates the impression of people wanting to stop others from RPing, for OOC reasons.
No Fun Allowed.
I just have to stick my head in here and say absolutely not.
When I say "this isn't something any of my characters would go to", I mean "...but it looks interesting so I'm making a post in your thread so you know that I've noticed and am supporting you." Very often I will say as much as well.
Really, if I think something is that dumb, I'll either try to pick it apart in a logical pattern or just not say anything to avoid breaking Backstage rules.
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The counter point, and there is some amount of evidence of it on this forum, is that on several occasions someone does suggest doing something, and then a bunch of people pile on with statements like:
"this isn't something that any of my characters would participate in" - then why did you post ?
"Not interested, also I would express disapproval towards anyone who did express interest" - okay ?
which only creates the impression of people wanting to stop others from RPing, for OOC reasons.
No Fun Allowed.
(http://i.imgur.com/R9vnQUA.jpg)
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And, for the record, I hope people aren't just trying to 'win'?
This is EVE....of course we're all trying to win. Some of us are just more gracious losers than others. RP is like PVP in that regard. It's a constant flow of winning and losing just instead of ships it arguments or drinking contests, mud wrestling...whatever it happens to be but ultimately someone wins and someone loses.
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The counter point, and there is some amount of evidence of it on this forum, is that on several occasions someone does suggest doing something, and then a bunch of people pile on with statements like:
"this isn't something that any of my characters would participate in" - then why did you post ?
which only creates the impression of people wanting to stop others from RPing, for OOC reasons.
No Fun Allowed.
I just have to stick my head in here and say absolutely not.
When I say "this isn't something any of my characters would go to", I mean "...but it looks interesting so I'm making a post in your thread so you know that I've noticed and am supporting you." Very often I will say as much as well.
Really, if I think something is that dumb, I'll either try to pick it apart in a logical pattern or just not say anything to avoid breaking Backstage rules.
that's entirely different though.
"This isn't something that any of my characters would participate in, but looks fun and I'd recommend it to other people" is very different to just saying "this isn't something that any of my characters would participate in".
been some posts where that's all there was in the way of responses to a suggestion for a thing.
Difference between constructive criticism, and hatespooge.
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I have RP'd with Mit in the past and will likely RP Mit in the future... so... yeah.
:D
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This is EVE....of course we're all trying to win. Some of us are just more gracious losers than others. RP is like PVP in that regard. It's a constant flow of winning and losing just instead of ships it arguments or drinking contests, mud wrestling...whatever it happens to be but ultimately someone wins and someone loses.
I have to disagree with there being winners and losers. Good RP requires cooperation. Not a script mind you, but cooperation. And with cooperation, everyone wins. RP that's nothing but PVP in a different medium is more like teenagers cutting each other down in a D&D game to be the one to get the Head of Vecna or young children yelling "Bang! I shot you! You're dead!" "No, I'm not!".
And I think this is where the frustration I mentioned above is coming from. We have several characters and groups that regularly come into conflict/opposition with each other, but it winds up devolving into the "Bang! I shot you!" mentality. So everyone defends their position/stance, doesn't give ground and nothing changes. Don't get me wrong, I can see why it happens (I do it sometimes, too): people put a lot of effort and time into their characters and organizations and feel a sense of investment in them, and who are you to come along and demand my character change to suit yours? There doesn't ever seem to be a moment where someone stops and ask themselves "This might be an interesting way to go with this, how can I make this work for my character?"
But beyond that, I think the RP community is there. I came back to it after 5 years, and I'm finding people to interact with, some expected, some have been surprises.
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I personally claim to at least complain a bit at times for that I have been a very proactive RPer and content creator over my Eve years, and so do not feel especially compelled to always have a backup project of mine to actually be allowed to complain.
For what it's worth, my things rarely met any success, so I stopped bothering and came back to more mundane individual to individual RP stories, and character focused RP, which is ten times better to my eyes anyway.
Anyway, what Ael said is a good analysis of the situation imo. There is also the vet syndrome I think, like myself at the very least, that used to be in a lot of various circles, circles that disappeared and dissolved, while finding nothing new and being left kinda excluded (I don't like the word, it's not like people exclude you, it's just that you get excluded yourself by the situation). So eventually, yeah, RP seems completely barren that way, and there is a total misunderstanding resulting of that between these people and the people in the good circles.
The problem is not new, I have seen it years ago already, and when you dare say that the RP scene seems a bit... empty, you get stoned by people that have nothing better to say that "just move your ass and do something". If it was so easy, you bet a lot of people would do it. I know I did, and I also know it never met any success, be it inspace stuff, or RP channels. vOv
The issue is not so much an absence of GMs and content generators, but an absence of numbers and half of the 4 main faction being left without any solid RP group or just without anyone except a few (looking at Gallente for which it has always been so past Acheron's fall in 2006, and Minmatar more recently in the 2 last years). When I say numbers, maybe that's because i'm an elitist prick, which is probable. I don't consider most of the Summit population and chatter being worthy of RP with, it's like playing tea parties with children.
That being said, there is still a few groups accessible here and there and moving one's ass to go RP with them is still something doable :)
Eventually it makes me think heavily of the trite issue of people getting along with a lot, and people not really finding what they are looking for and complaining about it.
EDIT : ah, and I was going to forget another thing, which is alt sprees. It's certainly not the first time that this will be brought up either (like most of that thread anyway, it's just a new version of the same old song)... It is natural for people to want to try something new from time to time and 'reroll', and play on a new char that will be the whim of the moment. It's the only way to breathe and get a bit of fresh air to try something else, something new. It's also maybe something that keeps a lot of people playing instead of just quitting.
It's also a plague, because 1) so many alts like it's alt-ception /o\ ; 2) It's inherent to Eve (lol) ; 3) It makes it harder to actually start something engaging and long lasting since because of their very nature, 80% of those alts are done out of a whim that is already assumed not to last at the beginning. So a lot of people are reluctant to start RP with those, myself included, and it also ruins the chances for more serious long lasting alts that will have to wait a lot before getting past the few first months to be seen and considered as 'stable and promising RP'.
And, for the record, I hope people aren't just trying to 'win'? RP is ultimately cooperative. Even when you're fighting it's for the gud fites. If anything you want to arrange for material with the enemy, if there's nothing forthcoming. We've done it, it's great. When people refuse, it's pretty disappointing. We just want to play the game after all. \o.o / You might stand to lose a little bit, but ultimately, everyone wins.
Believe me, a lot are. It's inherent to Eve. People play to win, and RP is no exception.
Ember post above is a clear example of that, and I diametrically disagree with that vision of RP, which I find toxic OOCly for various reasons that have already been exposed in that thread. That's why the community is fractured, yes, like in any game or MMO with a RP community, always for different but similar reasons. That's why you usually play with your friends and people that think alike.
That's also why it fits so very poorly to Eve where you can't just make your own imaginary sandcastle in your own corner, since everything is interconnected and fair play. It forces people to play together, even if they do not want to. Especially when only one side doesn't want to. If you have a strong disagreement on what RP should be, or with someone that you just can't bear, nothing prevents him to come and mess with you ICly, and that will be done in the frame of the game where no matter what you claim, it will have happened.
And that's what's beautiful and ugly with Eve at the same time.
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I have to disagree with there being winners and losers. Good RP requires cooperation. Not a script mind you, but cooperation. And with cooperation, everyone wins. RP that's nothing but PVP in a different medium is more like teenagers cutting each other down in a D&D game to be the one to get the Head of Vecna or young children yelling "Bang! I shot you! You're dead!" "No, I'm not!".
Still there are winners and losers. Sure in an OOC fashion I would think most are happy with good quality RP to be had, but we'll say 7 times out of 10 ICly there is a winner and a loser of whatever event may have happened. Our characters are an extension of ourselves and therefore I think most people want their character to 'win.' That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Most of the community are at least on friendly terms regardless of faction loyalties and whatever else our characters may have, and that's what allows us to have our characters win and lose with one another. That post was meant to be a bit tongue and cheek and not entirely serious, but guess it needed some clarification. As players and roleplayers within the community we all win, even if someones character has to lose.
EDIT : ah, and I was going to forget another thing, which is alt sprees. It's certainly not the first time that this will be brought up either (like most of that thread anyway, it's just a new version of the same old song)... It is natural for people to want to try something new from time to time and 'reroll', and play on a new char that will be the whim of the moment. It's the only way to breathe and get a bit of fresh air to try something else, something new. It's also maybe something that keeps a lot of people playing instead of just quitting.
It's also a plague, because 1) so many alts like it's alt-ception /o\ ; 2) It's inherent to Eve (lol) ; 3) It makes it harder to actually start something engaging and long lasting since because of their very nature, 80% of those alts are done out of a whim that is already assumed not to last at the beginning. So a lot of people are reluctant to start RP with those, myself included, and it also ruins the chances for more serious long lasting alts that will have to wait a lot before getting past the few first months to be seen and considered as 'stable and promising RP'.
Don't even get me started...I loathe most alts. I know theyre an inherent part of EVE, and they can even server purposes in RP. I just hate the straw men that develop on IGS, and the people that have fifteyleven alts so they can be in all the circles or attention whore. I would much rather it be limited or at least disclosed some way, but that'll probably never happen.
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Fun is dumb.
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I have to disagree with there being winners and losers. Good RP requires cooperation. Not a script mind you, but cooperation. And with cooperation, everyone wins. RP that's nothing but PVP in a different medium is more like teenagers cutting each other down in a D&D game to be the one to get the Head of Vecna or young children yelling "Bang! I shot you! You're dead!" "No, I'm not!".
Still there are winners and losers. Sure in an OOC fashion I would think most are happy with good quality RP to be had, but we'll say 7 times out of 10 ICly there is a winner and a loser of whatever event may have happened. Our characters are an extension of ourselves and therefore I think most people want their character to 'win.' That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Most of the community are at least on friendly terms regardless of faction loyalties and whatever else our characters may have, and that's what allows us to have our characters win and lose with one another. That post was meant to be a bit tongue and cheek and not entirely serious, but guess it needed some clarification. As players and roleplayers within the community we all win, even if someones character has to lose.
EDIT : ah, and I was going to forget another thing, which is alt sprees. It's certainly not the first time that this will be brought up either (like most of that thread anyway, it's just a new version of the same old song)... It is natural for people to want to try something new from time to time and 'reroll', and play on a new char that will be the whim of the moment. It's the only way to breathe and get a bit of fresh air to try something else, something new. It's also maybe something that keeps a lot of people playing instead of just quitting.
It's also a plague, because 1) so many alts like it's alt-ception /o\ ; 2) It's inherent to Eve (lol) ; 3) It makes it harder to actually start something engaging and long lasting since because of their very nature, 80% of those alts are done out of a whim that is already assumed not to last at the beginning. So a lot of people are reluctant to start RP with those, myself included, and it also ruins the chances for more serious long lasting alts that will have to wait a lot before getting past the few first months to be seen and considered as 'stable and promising RP'.
Don't even get me started...I loathe most alts. I know theyre an inherent part of EVE, and they can even server purposes in RP. I just hate the straw men that develop on IGS, and the people that have fifteyleven alts so they can be in all the circles or attention whore. I would much rather it be limited or at least disclosed some way, but that'll probably never happen.
Yeah, I want to elaborate too that I'm not wimpy teetotaler, I like the idea that we can knock around in IC. I think that's great. Heck, I built my character this way because I didn't want the disconnect. If you come to mess with Aedre, he'll probably lose. For now.
You know what was said even in faction warfare in PvP circles as we were winning the thing last summer? That it was a terrible idea and we were going to regret doing it. We did it anyway, but I could appreciate the acknowledgement that we just wanted the badge for it but at least understood it wasn't a constructive thing to actually do to the other players.
I think you have to weigh what the game gives you for winning (which isn't much actually, we were more hoping to get the attention of the developers with it) and what you get for cooperating about the whole thing - OOCly, of course! Even non-rpers don't want to sound like they're being nice to the 'enemy'. :p
Of course people are going to win and lose encounters! That's not really what I mean, I'm totally fine with that, despite my tone. Maybe it's the PvPer culture in me now, but think having more encounters is good. Sometimes that has to be arranged. Not scripted though - that just makes me cringe :j
It's why you type GF in local. It's not supposed to be snide! :x It's the non-rper's OOC acknowledgement that we had fun fighting and would like to again, win or lose.
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If you come to mess with Aedre, he'll probably lose. For now.
TIL ANSLO-SENPAI COMES AND KICKS THE ASS OF WHOEVER MESSED WITH AEDRE
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Go out, the world is yours to mold! That said the I-RED team of liberal think tank specialists are working hard to keep things spiced up (at the expense of our image and yes killboard stats) for the glorious RP!
Also I miss Simca. :cry:
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The counter point, and there is some amount of evidence of it on this forum, is that on several occasions someone does suggest doing something, and then a bunch of people pile on with statements like:
"this isn't something that any of my characters would participate in" - then why did you post ?
....
which only creates the impression of people wanting to stop others from RPing, for OOC reasons.
No Fun Allowed.
I just have to stick my head in here and say absolutely not.
When I say "this isn't something any of my characters would go to", I mean "...but it looks interesting so I'm making a post in your thread so you know that I've noticed and am supporting you." Very often I will say as much as well.
Really, if I think something is that dumb, I'll either try to pick it apart in a logical pattern or just not say anything to avoid breaking Backstage rules.
This. When I make a post about how this does not suit my characters or something, it simply means the effort is acknowledged and that it has potential, but I can't contribute. Dismissal or rejection of something is quite recognizable as such.
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If you come to mess with Aedre, he'll probably lose. For now.
TIL ANSLO-SENPAI COMES AND KICKS THE ASS OF WHOEVER MESSED WITH AEDRE
herrmahgerd Anslo Noticed Me /n////n\ kweeee~
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Go out, the world is yours to mold! That said the I-RED team of liberal think tank specialists are working hard to keep things spiced up (at the expense of our image and yes killboard stats) for the glorious RP!
Also I miss Simca. :cry:
She misses John too....John.
Also I miss you. :cube:
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I'm pretty sure everyone knows my feeling on this.
I have tried, numerous times, to get something going in MinnyLand; the first time we actually had some success, but I was not selective enough in recruitment. It imploded. RIP, TRA.
The second time, I was much more selective, not wishing to repeat no 1, aaand... no one joined, save a couple people who followed me from Attempt No 1; sure, a few people said "I'll throw an alt in there", but really, alts don't do much. The creators seldom if ever played them, and Skadi's Call died before it was born.
I stayed with Gradient due to friendships i had made there, and due to a (usually) safe, friendly environment, even if it was becoming more and more a group of solo players who chatted in corp chat once in a while. I now find myself without this safety net, I looked around, and Minmatar as a faction is dead; minny loyalist RP? Fucking nonexistent.
You can say all you want about "make your own RP", but funny thing about tribes? They tend to be, you know... tribes. They don't work well with one or two people, or an alt who never sees the light of day. I blame a combination of CCP, exclusivist attitudes from the minny community which I am partly to blame for, the overall poor state of minny ships, and simple changes in the tides. There is no one "reason" that the Minny faction died; it wasnt one fatal wound. It was a series of tiny cuts.
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I thought a bit more on this and while I think that most factions got dealt huge PF blows past TEA at various points (especially Caldari first and then Minmatar), I think it seldom fails to explain why some factions have died (minmatar, once one of the most thriving) and some other haven't (the caldari still thriving).
All of this to say that I think there is a severe shrink not of roleplayers in themselves, but a blantant lack of loyalist entities. It's completely void and doesn't help to create the safety net you are talking about. Most of the RP base are playing the independent freelance capsuleer type, where a lot have no clear political loyalties, or changing ones. It's completely different to what we had 3-4, or even worse, 6 years ago.
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Can't play a boring loyalist. It's so much more edgy and special to be a sansha/blooder/sani sabik/slave/whatever is opposed to loyalist faction X.
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I agree with miz. We need more sansha/blooder/sani sabik/slave/etc. That are also loyalists. Especially sani sabik minmatars. :twisted:
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Now if the people who want to play the pirates could just leave the FW alone, grow a pair and just go pirate I would be rather happy. It does the RP community no favors to squeeze out the loyalists by polluting what could have been a good place to foster loyalist RP with their presence.
My loyalist enemies are nowhere to be seen, elbowed out by blooders, sansha, angels and "mercs". Now I'm going to have to drop any efforts I'm making towards loyalist or inter-faction RP just to wardec and hunt blooders trolling around my FW.
Seriously people, own your special snowflake status and go do your own pirate faction things, be you sansha, angels, blooders or whatever. Stop infesting the other factions, making them ridiculously unpleasant to be a part of.
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PIE seem to be doing just fine with PY-RE's merc elements knocking about. In fact I'd argue they shine all the brighter when stood next to the tarnished morality PY-RE (not to mention many others) accepts as a cost to keep such elements on it's roster and maintain an effective presence.
I really don't know where the 'edgy' name calling came in as a default for dealing with PF/RP problems far more fundamental than individual choices and other game play activities. Pirate role players roleplay what they are interested in. The same way a DnD rogue player isn't neccessarily RPing a klepto-douche just to be 'edgy', but instead explore alternatives to lawful activity as a means for good or selfish (evil-implied) reasons.
TBH at this point 'pirate' is a misnomer for Blooders, Angels, Sansha, Serps and Guristas - they are effectively rogue states. In many cases they are almost the antithetical mirrors of their 'parent' faction. Guri are wild-child biker gang-esque saboteurs and more besides, retaining the fierce competition of the Caldari and a militaristic bent to keep their activities and technology sharp. They still have structure, direction and ferocity in the face of adversity - defining Caldari traits, but in an almost anarchistic strain.
The Angels and Sansha stand out, but even then they are a mixture of their 'proximity' factions: Ultra-hierarchical 'meritocratic' placement on Nation society (Flavours of Amarr and Caldari dark side, heavy on the 'slavery' hook), ad-hoc but brutal assertion of dominance in almost clan-like structures supported by a slave under class in the case of Angels (Flavours of Minmatar tribalism taken to an eat-the-weak extreme plus Amarr slavery as a heart-string tugging 'bad guys' vibe). (Ultra simplification here, I intend no disservice, just wish to make a point before everyone dies of old age reading this)
Suffice to say, my opinion is that 'pirate' roleplay is no less valid, nor more edgy, than 'loyalist' roleplay. Some loyalists 'edge it up' (to borrow a tired and oft ill-aimed phrase) all the time; I assume because they find the exploration of those precarious elements exciting, fun or it gets them desired attention. Haters gonna hate - it works and you and I might not like it, but what works survives. Tl;dr edgy has been co-opted to attack others so often it pretty much translates as 'i don't like this' rather than a legitimate complaint these days.
Asking people to leave a lucrative and free war declaration (with two whole enemy 'factions' to fight) to assuage a drought of 'loyalist' RP without evidence of that even being a cure is, to be direct, unfair. Our piratical comrades in RP have no alternative through which they may prosper while striking at their perceived enemies. I for one refuse to sleep on a bed of nails for the sake of exposition and the preservation of other's RP foibles: in all things the game client trumps narrative desires.
Many of those pirates, and I speak from experience of having myself worked with TS-F and talked with Milo about Anshar, have 'grown a pair and gone full pirate'. It is simply just not sustainable in the long term unless you have alternative sources of income, and such structures live as long as the interest of those willing to maintain them. In the interests of robustness in the face of 'patrons' leaving the game, being able to finance your piracy through the destruction of enemies and the baiting of fights (and claiming of territory if opposition doesn't amass to drive you out/give you that fight) is a godsend. It sustains you through the lowest common denominator - the loyal fleet member who desires only to F1 at the FC's behest or solo pvp and fight for fun. The income becomes a consequence of activity without the need for complex supporting structures. Liberation from patronage is important for a corp's survival - I'll always help my friends with industrial support when I am subbed, but I'd hate for my absence to spell the death of SRP or sustainable pvp for them.
To crystallize my position and response to a single thrust: Asking people to move on because you don't like their roleplay isn't going to solve anything. There aren't any more loyal roleplayers waiting in the wings but those vets who might return and newbros who will hook up with their chosen factions in time anyway. I think it does a disservice to many 'loyalist' corps such as PIE, I-RED, MOIRA and so forth to say they have been elbowed out by pirates (or independent capsuleers to include non-roleplayers); they continue to live, prosper and roleplay with impunity.
The simplest solution is unfortunately out of our hands: Give us pirate factional war and your wishes would become incredibly reasonable, and most likely acted on without the merest of urging. When CCP gives you a low sec territory war sandbox, chock full of sand but with only four colours of shovel, you're going to get some fans of the off-shades instead picking the next best thing, as much as you might hate those darn dirty lime-green shovel-lovers compared to your pure reds, yellow, blues and pastel greens.
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All of this to say that I think there is a severe shrink not of roleplayers in themselves, but a blantant lack of loyalist entities. It's completely void and doesn't help to create the safety net you are talking about. Most of the RP base are playing the independent freelance capsuleer type, where a lot have no clear political loyalties, or changing ones. It's completely different to what we had 3-4, or even worse, 6 years ago.
I think it's a matter of player investment and buy-in with factional RP. In the past a lot of that buy-in with a faction was through player agency -- discussions with others about a faction, organizations created to explore a certain aspect of appeal of that faction. That ability to explore and create due to the inherent vagueness of the background fiction meant that in a sense you could own a little piece of a faction for yourself or your group that was validated and reciprocated by other players.
That paradigm has shifted a lot in my view due to the increasing solidification of background lore PF culminating with Source. Buy-in and player investment with a faction is a process that is now, more than ever in the hands of CCP to provide validation for player, and roleplayer efforts made in the name of a faction. However with Eve is that while Live Events such as the research race are fantastic, it doesn't change potential dissatisfaction wanting to be a factional loyalist in a game in which opportunities for reward/validation of efforts are limited and the ability to impact or interact with the game world beyond other players practically non-existent.
Given such a scenario, I think it's only natural the trend might be to go, "You know what, all that factional fiction is cool but since it all exists behind a glass case we'll never be able to touch why not just have fun with other people in the game we enjoy playing."
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@ Aelisha
You made a lot of assumptions, including that I hold my opinion because I don't like their RP. That's not the case, however much I consider it a dead end with no room for turning around for characters. I hold my opinion on this because of what I see in the game. I see loyalists losing the desire to "come play" as it were. I see loyalists OOC snap and flat out yell at pirates to please get out of their faction's militia, because it puts them in a lose-lose position where they either have to embrace the bad or start throwing out wardecs they can't possibly win.
And frankly, I do question the testicular fortitude of those who run to the militias after making decisions regarding their characters' loyalties that puts them at odds with the empires. You make the decision to become enemies of all the empires, bloody deal with the consequences. Having the cake and eating it is frankly in poor taste, particularly when it comes at the expense of others. I can remember one person wildly embracing the loss of standings across all Empires during an event and being exceedingly miffed when that was reversed again. I don't think I've seen anyone else go to that kind of length to be willing to take the consequences of their actions in Eve, and that is what Eve has always been about.
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Easy access to PVP is probably one of the bigger reasons some of those groups invade FW, and honestly...I don't blame them. Sometimes you just want to pew...FW is an easy way to do that, and if they want to cater to whatever part of their character would join FW for destructions sake (or whatever else) then let em. Sure if it makes absolutely no sense...then I can raise an eyebrow or two, but I'm not gonna say they can't or shouldn't do it.
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They're not doing it for easy access to pvp, they're doing it for easy access to isk. PvP is easier to access by remaining neutral in the warzone and shooting all sides.
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What samira said. Much easier and way more fun to get paid from killing amarrians than grinding level 4's in Delve or Stain.
And if people are snapping ooc about pirate roleplayers in militia, they need to grow the fuck up.
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When a militia is 90% pirates, both RP and OOC, there is good reason to be mad about it.
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They're not doing it for easy access to pvp, they're doing it for easy access to isk. PvP is easier to access by remaining neutral in the warzone and shooting all sides.
Yeah I forgot the whole LP thing. Still I'd rather have the PVP and be able to keep at least some semblance of sec status lol. I can see both sides, but I don't really see what the big deal is if pirates are in the malitias other than from an IC sense perspective. Think you could enlighten me as to why you and Miz and probably others see this as such a problem?
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When a militia is 90% pirates, both RP and OOC, there is good reason to be mad about it.
Militia are 90% non roleplayers acting like douchebags.
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They're not doing it for easy access to pvp, they're doing it for easy access to isk. PvP is easier to access by remaining neutral in the warzone and shooting all sides.
Yeah I forgot the whole LP thing. Still I'd rather have the PVP and be able to keep at least some semblance of sec status lol. I can see both sides, but I don't really see what the big deal is if pirates are in the malitias other than from an IC sense perspective. Think you could enlighten me as to why you and Miz and probably others see this as such a problem?
Because I have literally no reason to fight for 24IC when it is a militia of blood raiders instead of Amarrians. Thre's no reason to take systems when you're taking it for and alongside blooders instead of Amarr. Simply, you can't take pride in fighting for your faction when the people you're fighting with aren't loyal to your faction, and will actually actively do things to spit on and tarnish your faction. One or two groups is okay, but when it ends up being nearly the entirety of it there's just no point. The 24IC might as well just be declared a pirate organization and hunted on sight by Amarr at this point.
And Evi, its much worse with Amarr militia. It's not just asshole players, it's people literally going around pulling stunts like what Nauplius does. It's actual self-declared blooder corps. That can't be just ignored.
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When I was in FW, and started since almost the beginning of it, it was already the case as it will always be for a lowsec environnement : militias were full of pirates, and we spent time to try to diplo them out of their ways, or just war dec them as a whole when a few of them were so bad that even all the other dirty elements ganged up against them.
Pirates have always been the overwhelming majority and it reflected ICly in that we spent our time yelling at them ICly, and even more, yelling at the 'system' (the authorities) that allow scum of all sorts into the militia. Well, in fine, it had it pros and cons, but the pros certainly were that it provided RP incentives for us to talk about something. Nothing new here.
And for people shifting loyalties everyday, I think that's something that can be taken ICly. You lose reputation when doing so, and so I am not sure of the need to bring it up here.
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@ Miz
No offense intended in my previous post, I meant to address the use of edgy and other verbal hooks rather than implying you directly dislike given groups.
@ The General Public
I do, however, stand by the fact that there seems to be a misplacement of the burden of action on so-called pirates, instead of applied mass pressure on CCP (via CSM or otherwise) to cater to the clear need/desire for piratical outlets in terms of alignment and roleplay. It may be easier to attack (directly or indirectly) those you feel 'bring down the neighborhood' but you're trying to kill the symptom not the cause. One should not cauterise one's tear ducts to cure sadness, just because crying indicates that state.
Asking people to leave the isk/pvp fountain of plenty because you feel they aren't 'in theme' is incredibly arrogant. If being off-theme we a reason to not be granted membership, we'd have a team curating FW. We are NOT curators, no matter how offended or aggrieved we may be at how some choose to use mechanics. The simple fact remains - we have no alternative, we can roleplay in this grey area and we will continue to do so until we get our own sand-castle building kit.
This does feel distressingly like a sub-urban Neighbourhood Committee at this stage, with people complaining about the value of their sandcastle and how someone building theirs on the same street is bringing the place down. The truth is you own your sandcastle, not the street you built it on, and they own theirs.
Push for FW for all factional alignments if you must as impossible it may seem to get it implemented. But asking people to 'grow a pair' or 'move on' is school yard tripe. Doinitrong on steroids even. If we choose to fragment ourselves on pointless pissing competitions and fracturing of what little voter base there is for rp-related gameplay into self-defeating blocks of inconsequence we have only ourselves to blame.
Ask not why the pirate doesn't leave your militia, but instead ask what would provide a meaningful alternative. You're never going to get us to leave with the former, and as impossible as the latter may seem; if it did come to pass then we'd all get a better, more diverse game for it. Also the people you currently oppose would mostly push with you for alternatives.
We're here because there's no reason not to be.
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I think I'm perfectly entitled to hold the opinion that pirates don't belong in FW. It's a factional entity where you should be able to be a faction loyalist without having to tolerate the enemies of your faction turning it into a festering sewer. If they disagree and remain, it's their choice but saying I don't get to consider that detrimental to the faction and to the rp community overall and so on smacks of censoring an opinion because it's uncomfortable.
It really is not my job to provide pirates with a playground. It is the responsibility of each player to either deal with the consequences of their choices or ignore them. Ignoring them simply means they have earned zero respect and want to have their cake and eat it.
You want to roleplay X? Then bloody roleplay X and play it out, consequences and all. If you don't, well... why should anyone ever take you seriously, ever again?
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You can hold whatever opinion you like, I am not attacking that and nor would I. I am however, willing and indeed eager to point out the pointlessness of pushing it on people. The reasonable (EDIT to clarify: reasonable, passive opposition - people can be reasonable AND agree with you of course) will ignore it, the concerned (as I am) will reply to it seeking a middle-ground, and the trolls will see it as a banner to rally against and do the exact opposite.
You can hold any opinion you like, the same as I hold the opinion that asking people to leave, even demanding it, is pointless, arrogant and adopts the mien of curator that we just do not possess.
I also hold the opinion that you have a point in a round about fashion that I agree with: pirate involvement in FW is unintended and is potentially against the original intent of the militias. If alternatives existed, I'd probably stand right alongside you. That not being the case, I'll instead suggest that we should all be pushing (together) for a more diverse, meaningful FW experience for all, with more factions - instead of trying to push out the few people who might take that stance with us.
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You want to roleplay X? Then bloody roleplay X and play it out, consequences and all. If you don't, well... why should anyone ever take you seriously, ever again?
We have been.
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This is less a matter of trying to push them out and instead simply making the displeasure known. Pushing CCP for anything is not an option as they really could not give less of a shit what any of us think and there really are no solutions. It is however a very significant cause to point at for the struggles of loyalist RP, as there's literally nowhere to go that isn't already infested by every (IC) piece of scum in Eve, making a mockery of whatever banner you fly under.
Evi: I strongly disagree.
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I'm doing loyalist stuff and am quite happy to report: No infestation "by every (IC) piece of scum in Eve, making a mockery of whatever banner (I) fly under."
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THE EMPIRES' ARE LOSING THEIR GRIP
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Things are still going great in Origin. We have lots of RP and PVP. :yar:
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Meh if I bring Simca back as say....a Blood Raider. Her motivation to enter FW would probably be along the lines of her having an easy way to harvest people. My motivation for joining FW would be easy access to PVP, income, and PYRE :D. Another aspect is that pvp is more fun with access to friends so why not go with FW and at least have some allies as opposed to going it alone. That line of thinking is applicable both IC and OOC.
Your character may not like her presence, but her reasoning for being there is no more or less important than your characters.
Edit:
Going to go ahead and clarify a bit. She isn't joining FW to help or hinder any faction. She's joining to make things easier on her.
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Meh if I bring Simca back as say....a Blood Raider. Her motivation to enter FW would probably be along the lines of her having an easy way to harvest people. My motivation for joining FW would be easy access to PVP, income, and PYRE :D. Another aspect is that pvp is more fun with access to friends so why not go with FW and at least have some allies as opposed to going it alone. That line of thinking is applicable both IC and OOC.
Your character may not like her presence, but her reasoning for being there is no more or less important than your characters.
This.
There is no minmatar rp? My corp is half minmatar and in militia rping as Sabik to aid the underdog in the war against empire. How is this not win win? We are staying true to canon and trying to get more blood into the vein of Minnie rp.
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Bit of a difference between Blooder and Minnie RP.
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Irrelevant. Their justification is still sound.
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Eves RP community seems to be increasingly shrinking and thus being unable to adequately cater to everyones styles and areas of interest, which inherently self-reinforces and results in further shrinking. People who like to take things very seriously are having to play with people who have a sillier style because there's no one else, people who like x faction are having to play with y faction because there's no else, people who like a certain faction are having to compromise either their roleplay or engage in gameplay they don't enjoy because there are simply no other options, etc.
It's a spiral I've seen in tons of MMOs in the later days of their life cycles, (it's probably slower in eve because of the one server thing) and it always ends in the eventual final death of organized roleplay in that community - It's almost impossible to recover from. The reason, frankly, is that there are simply better games to roleplay in every sense except sandbox appeal, so that's where new roleplayers go.
I wouldn't say this is a terrible thing, though. Everyone needs to move on to new stuff eventually, and 11+ years is a pretty darn good run. And of course, it won't run out of steam completely for a good long while yet.
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Given the mechanics, justification or not doesn't really matter. I could join Amarr FW and shit up the place right proper, giving PIE and I-RED a few visits etc etc. It does not make much sense IC that the 24th would accept Miz, would it? It would make even less sense if I joined Amarr FW and still claimed to be a Minnie loyalist.
This is one of the areas where mechanics and making sense does not match, and going by the mechanics alone is detrimental to RP overall.
Not that it matters. Anyone's entirely capable and willing to do whatever they want in Eve and what my or anyone else's opinion on it might be won't actually change anything. All I'm doing here is pointing out why I think a lot of what we see being done is detrimental to faction RP in general.
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Meh if I bring Simca back as say....a Blood Raider. Her motivation to enter FW would probably be along the lines of her having an easy way to harvest people.
You and everyone else in 24IC these days. With one easy sentence you've answered your own question about what the big deal is.
I joined FW to fight for and beside Amarr, not blood raiders.
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Also no, it's not an easy way to harvest people. An easy way to harvest them is to come into the warzone as a pirate and shoot both sides. No, if you're actually joining a militia you're doing it for an easy way to harvest isk, because that's the only actual reason to join the militia beyond factional loyalty (which you're not after).
If pirates would actually come in as pirates, then there wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't represent us and we'd be able to shoot them as they deserve. But instead they all join the militia instead to whore on isk, while waving their arms talking about how "loyal" they are.
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Meh if I bring Simca back as say....a Blood Raider. Her motivation to enter FW would probably be along the lines of her having an easy way to harvest people.
You and everyone else in 24IC these days. With one easy sentence you've answered your own question about what the big deal is.
I didn't join FW to fight beside blood raiders.
Doesn't mean you won't have to. The Empires probably don't really care who is fighting for them as long as there are people fighting for them. I'm sure regular army doesn't like the PMC groups that come in and have more leeway in what they can do. This is the same thing. Hell the Empires might actually know and encourage this type of thing. If I was the Amarr empire and I noticed a group of Sansha coming in and fighting off the Minnies AND taking them home with them....I might just turn a blind eye, shred the evidence that I know, and disavow any knowledge of it. Technically they're doing a service...sre theyre our enemies, but the Minmatar are a bigger enemy...of both of them.
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Also no, it's not an easy way to harvest people. An easy way to harvest them is to come into the warzone as a pirate and shoot both sides. No, if you're actually joining a militia you're doing it for an easy way to harvest isk, because that's the only actual reason to join the militia beyond factional loyalty (which you're not after).
If pirates would actually come in as pirates, then there wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't represent us and we'd be able to shoot them as they deserve. But instead they all join the militia instead to whore on isk, while waving their arms talking about "loyal" they are.
Very succinctly put.
"We're X!" *does something completely different, because it's OOC convenient* "Why aren't you taking us seriously?!"
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Also no, it's not an easy way to harvest people. An easy way to harvest them is to come into the warzone as a pirate and shoot both sides. No, if you're actually joining a militia you're doing it for an easy way to harvest isk, because that's the only actual reason to join the militia beyond factional loyalty (which you're not after).
If pirates would actually come in as pirates, then there wouldn't be a problem as they wouldn't represent us and we'd be able to shoot them as they deserve. But instead they all join the militia instead to whore on isk, while waving their arms talking about how "loyal" they are.
Nah I could justify that ICly in a few ways. PYRE does the whole PMC thing, but on a personal level...well fighting and loosing ships costs ISK. I mean you have ammo, mods, ships, more ammo mods and ships, bigger ammo mods and ships...it all adds up. Only an idiot would sit on the sidelines for more targets when you can still go into a fairly target rich environment and get paid for it.
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Given the mechanics, justification or not doesn't really matter. I could join Amarr FW and shit up the place right proper, giving PIE and I-RED a few visits etc etc. It does not make much sense IC that the 24th would accept Miz, would it? It would make even less sense if I joined Amarr FW and still claimed to be a Minnie loyalist.
This is one of the areas where mechanics and making sense does not match, and going by the mechanics alone is detrimental to RP overall.
Not that it matters. Anyone's entirely capable and willing to do whatever they want in Eve and what my or anyone else's opinion on it might be won't actually change anything. All I'm doing here is pointing out why I think a lot of what we see being done is detrimental to faction RP in general.
Double agent. AWOXing. Long game. Etc.
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CCP's implementation and subsequent neglect of the Faction Warfare system/mechanics are in my opinion one of the worst things that ever happened to the game.
I'm of the opinion it pretty much destroyed an entire world of creative content generation from Roleplayers, not to mention being structured from the outset as a system to be gamed and not to participate in for competition's sake.
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CCP's implementation and subsequent neglect of the Faction Warfare system/mechanics are in my opinion one of the worst things that ever happened to the game.
I'm of the opinion it pretty much destroyed an entire world of creative content generation from Roleplayers, not to mention being structured from the outset as a system to be gamed and not to participate in for competition's sake.
Very good points.
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CCP's implementation and subsequent neglect of the Faction Warfare system/mechanics are in my opinion one of the worst things that ever happened to the game.
I'm of the opinion it pretty much destroyed an entire world of creative content generation from Roleplayers, not to mention being structured from the outset as a system to be gamed and not to participate in for competition's sake.
You are not alone.
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TBH jokes aside, I do see it as what the trailer said. The Empires' are losing their grip. The Capsuleers are on the rise and taking more and more control. If you think FW ruined possible RP, then honestly you're the only one to blame for limiting yourself to Empire loyalist RP. I mean shit, Miz went above and beyond the basic Minnie loyalist RP to DO WHAT MUST BE DONE. I'm pretty sure the Republic wouldn't have DONE WHAT HAD TO BE DONE in terms of general loyalist actions.
If you wanna be a loyalist, be one. But don't blame FW.
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Let's start an initiative to get Pirates out of FW. I think it should be led by Miz and Samira since they've been the most vocal about it. Where should we start?
"Here, DeT Resprox forged a pact with the narcotic barons of the Blood Raider Covenant, they too had been locked in a struggle with the Amarrian Empire. Profits increased as drugs were pumped into the foul veins of Amarr under the supply of Draclira Merlonne..............and slowly............ a new form began to mould itself from the hatred placed upon the Amarrs offspring." (https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/T.R.I.A.D)
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Faction Warfare became this giant inescapable elephant in the room for the RP community; it put many RPers in an awful spot, because here was this thing that was the most obvious and natural IC way to support your faction, but then gets no attention from CCP on the million ways in which it was structurally and PF awful, and neglected for what, 5 or 6 years now with no movement or changes?
Everyone who participates eventually ends up looking like idiots for doing the same thing for 5 years and having their empires let in all sorts of groups that it wouldn't, etc. N
It's a black hole of RP; very difficult to escape it's influence on the rest of the scene.
Look at it this way; all these people sucked into the endless slog that doesn't go anywhere are roleplayers who in an earlier time would have joined other RP corps with varying interests and more dynamic content. When you aren't getting trapped into an endless cycle of shit that doesn't go anywhere you are forced to come up with your own adventures and arcs and events between players. Not only that, the people who aren't trapped in that environment at least had a critical mass of other people to DO creative things with who weren't perma-stuck in trench warfare.
It's this half-assed stand in for content that sucks all the air out of the room.
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If you wanna be a loyalist, be one. But don't blame FW.
Anslo I absolutely will blame FW for a lot of things, no joke. I was around for a few years before it was launched, so I have a very clear picture of a before and after with regards to what people were doing creatively with each other and what people participated in.
There was a before, which was interesting, and then there was an after, which became much less interesting.
You are right in that it's of course still up to the players, but my point is that FW served as this thing that sucked up all the excess energy. If you were someone who got RPers to do events or fight wars with each other or have big arcs, the people available to participate and make those things happen and interesting dropped by 90%.
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Ultimately, for all those people who are basically skipping around the issue and going "I hate that Pyre have Sansha Loyalists in their ranks and they are flying with the Amarr" can simply tell me to my face that they want me not to fly with people I enjoy flying with for the sake of my RP purity, and then I will laugh and laugh and laugh and keep flying with people whom I enjoy flying with.
Tyvm!
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Much as I think it could be improved for RP...FW wasn't created for RPers it was created for casual players that wanted PVP and/or ISK with a bit of competition and a goal...attainable goal or not...and that didn't want to go to null sec.
Elephant in the room...maybe, but it's also something we have to either work around or avoid. The casual PVPer playerbase is bigger than the RP playerbase....guess who gets the catering.
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Let's start an initiative to get Pirates out of FW. I think it should be led by Miz and Samira since they've been the most vocal about it. Where should we start?
Whenever FW comes up I always promote changing it to empires vs pirates. That is a very easy fix, and one that would make great amounts of sense in lore. But CCP is unlikely to do shit about it.
Also, +1 to everything that Silas said.
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Ultimately, for all those people who are basically skipping around the issue and going "I hate that Pyre have Sansha Loyalists in their ranks and they are flying with the Amarr" can simply tell me to my face that they want me not to fly with people I enjoy flying with for the sake of my RP purity, and then I will laugh and laugh and laugh and keep flying with people whom I enjoy flying with.
Tyvm!
Yes, you should not fly with people you enjoy flying with if flying with them is a breach of RP purity. What is the point of roleplaying if people are't actually going to play the role they chose to play?
All that being said, frankly Pyre is not the worst offender. If it was just Pyre I wouldn't really care. It's all the other ones in 24IC that piss me off.
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Let's start an initiative to get Pirates out of FW. I think it should be led by Miz and Samira since they've been the most vocal about it. Where should we start?
"Here, DeT Resprox forged a pact with the narcotic barons of the Blood Raider Covenant, they too had been locked in a struggle with the Amarrian Empire. Profits increased as drugs were pumped into the foul veins of Amarr under the supply of Draclira Merlonne..............and slowly............ a new form began to mould itself from the hatred placed upon the Amarrs offspring." (https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/T.R.I.A.D)
How come you forge a pact with Covenant but set us red?
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Ultimately, for all those people who are basically skipping around the issue and going "I hate that Pyre have Sansha Loyalists in their ranks and they are flying with the Amarr" can simply tell me to my face that they want me not to fly with people I enjoy flying with for the sake of my RP purity, and then I will laugh and laugh and laugh and keep flying with people whom I enjoy flying with.
Tyvm!
Yes, you should not fly with people you enjoy flying with if flying with them is a breach of RP purity. What is the point of roleplaying if people are't actually going to play the role they chose to play?
All that being said, frankly Pyre is not the worst offender. If it was just Pyre I wouldn't really care. It's all the other ones in 24IC that piss me off.
I am now laughing because we did that for years. Now we want to kick back, relax, fly with our OOC friends and it has everyone acting like a cat just got dropped in a blender and its the Worst Thing To Happen Ever.
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Let's start an initiative to get Pirates out of FW. I think it should be led by Miz and Samira since they've been the most vocal about it. Where should we start?
"Here, DeT Resprox forged a pact with the narcotic barons of the Blood Raider Covenant, they too had been locked in a struggle with the Amarrian Empire. Profits increased as drugs were pumped into the foul veins of Amarr under the supply of Draclira Merlonne..............and slowly............ a new form began to mould itself from the hatred placed upon the Amarrs offspring." (https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/T.R.I.A.D)
I'm still trying to figure out how you've gone from us redding (and if I get my will, wardeccing) a blooder corp in our militia to allying with them? They've been red to us since we first learned they were in FW, which is even before they contacted me for blue and we'll be eating standings losses to kill them until/if the dec hits.
The corp text there does need updating as it's simply not the case. The faction hates us and that weird two char corp has never had standings with TRIAD.
@Tiberious, that's of course entirely up to you but the point I've been trying to make is that it pretty much strips every single iota of weight from your RP as it just makes you mouthy pretenders hiding in FW instead of being actual Sansha. For my sake, it makes zero difference as my overview would show you guys exactly the same no matter what, but it is detrimental to faction RP overall to have it so diluted/polluted.
FW really did put a garrotte on loyalist RP and it's still slowly but surely tightening.
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Ultimately, for all those people who are basically skipping around the issue and going "I hate that Pyre have Sansha Loyalists in their ranks and they are flying with the Amarr" can simply tell me to my face that they want me not to fly with people I enjoy flying with for the sake of my RP purity, and then I will laugh and laugh and laugh and keep flying with people whom I enjoy flying with.
Tyvm!
Yes, you should not fly with people you enjoy flying with if flying with them is a breach of RP purity. What is the point of roleplaying if people are't actually going to play the role they chose to play?
All that being said, frankly Pyre is not the worst offender. If it was just Pyre I wouldn't really care. It's all the other ones in 24IC that piss me off.
Out of curiosity who are the other ones? Pyre was the only one I know about.
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If you wanted to fly with your OOC friends, and this is not an option for the current character you are playing, then you make new characters to do it with.
"But RL friendships" will never get a pass from me as an excuse to break character. IC/OOC separation.
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Ultimately, for all those people who are basically skipping around the issue and going "I hate that Pyre have Sansha Loyalists in their ranks and they are flying with the Amarr" can simply tell me to my face that they want me not to fly with people I enjoy flying with for the sake of my RP purity, and then I will laugh and laugh and laugh and keep flying with people whom I enjoy flying with.
Tyvm!
Yes, you should not fly with people you enjoy flying with if flying with them is a breach of RP purity. What is the point of roleplaying if people are't actually going to play the role they chose to play?
All that being said, frankly Pyre is not the worst offender. If it was just Pyre I wouldn't really care. It's all the other ones in 24IC that piss me off.
Out of curiosity who are the other ones? Pyre was the only one I know about.
Everyone on these killmails:
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17950783
https://zkillboard.com/kill/37237863/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/42719933/
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Let's start an initiative to get Pirates out of FW. I think it should be led by Miz and Samira since they've been the most vocal about it. Where should we start?
"Here, DeT Resprox forged a pact with the narcotic barons of the Blood Raider Covenant, they too had been locked in a struggle with the Amarrian Empire. Profits increased as drugs were pumped into the foul veins of Amarr under the supply of Draclira Merlonne..............and slowly............ a new form began to mould itself from the hatred placed upon the Amarrs offspring." (https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/T.R.I.A.D)
I'm still trying to figure out how you've gone from us redding (and if I get my will, wardeccing) a blooder corp in our militia to allying with them? They've been red to us since we first learned they were in FW, which is even before they contacted me for blue and we'll be eating standings losses to kill them until/if the dec hits.
The corp text there does need updating as it's simply not the case. The faction hates us and that weird two char corp has never had standings with TRIAD.
@Tiberious, that's of course entirely up to you but the point I've been trying to make is that it pretty much strips every single iota of weight from your RP as it just makes you mouthy pretenders hiding in FW instead of being actual Sansha. For my sake, it makes zero difference as my overview would show you guys exactly the same no matter what, but it is detrimental to faction RP overall to have it so diluted/polluted.
FW really did put a garrotte on loyalist RP and it's still slowly but surely tightening.
Blood Raider Covenant is actually neutral to the Republic and Federation.
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They're disliking TRIAD/UK quite a bit.
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Silas summed it up pretty well. Before TEA was a completely different world. Shittier gameplay with a lot less polish and much more imbalance, but otherwise, there was no FW, and no TEA lore yet.
Would also love to see empires vs piwates.
Eves RP community seems to be increasingly shrinking and thus being unable to adequately cater to everyones styles and areas of interest, which inherently self-reinforces and results in further shrinking. People who like to take things very seriously are having to play with people who have a sillier style because there's no one else, people who like x faction are having to play with y faction because there's no else, people who like a certain faction are having to compromise either their roleplay or engage in gameplay they don't enjoy because there are simply no other options, etc.
It's a spiral I've seen in tons of MMOs in the later days of their life cycles, (it's probably slower in eve because of the one server thing) and it always ends in the eventual final death of organized roleplay in that community - It's almost impossible to recover from. The reason, frankly, is that there are simply better games to roleplay in every sense except sandbox appeal, so that's where new roleplayers go.
I wouldn't say this is a terrible thing, though. Everyone needs to move on to new stuff eventually, and 11+ years is a pretty darn good run. And of course, it won't run out of steam completely for a good long while yet.
I would really love to find other nice MMOs to roleplay in but I don't. :(
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Judge Anskek for new forum mod please.
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In defense of the TSF folks,
Pirates have (perhaps unfairly) -always- had more RP leeway to fly with who they want. They tend to have a much looser / malleable set of practical values.
IE it's more insulting sometimes for the Amarr to fly with the Sansha than for the Sansha to fly with the Amarr.
The ones with the higher sense of faction morals are the ones who get embarrassed.
It doesn't mean that it's not a completely fucked up system that would allow blooders and Sansha to enlist in the 24th IMPERIAL CRUSADE for crying out loud. That's basically game breaking for me.
The Empire burns those sorts of people on stakes with laser fire, they don't invite them into their military and give them strategic goals. At least some of the empires have entirely too high a set of standards to publicly ally themselves with such characters.
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Meh if I bring Simca back as say....a Blood Raider. Her motivation to enter FW would probably be along the lines of her having an easy way to harvest people.
You and everyone else in 24IC these days. With one easy sentence you've answered your own question about what the big deal is.
I joined FW to fight for and beside Amarr, not blood raiders.
The nature of a sandbox is that people do what benefits them most. And it's an open secret that the FW-environment is open to all kinds of people, that you easily can join Amarr FW, even if you are a blood raider, that it is lucrative to do so, that you even drive the loyalists away by doing so etc. In short: Joining the Amarr FW as blood raider makes absolute sense, because you can. EVE has always been about accepting the consequences of your actions: But where no real consequences are, there are none you have to accept.
So, rather than trying to push non-existant consequences on those who 'ruin FW by joining factions that would never let them in, but do let them in', maybe the loyalists should accept that if they want to join the CONCORD enforced proxy-wars between the Empires, they will end up flying alongside the (IC) scum of the cluster?
Isn't it harsh to demand from those playing the types - as Silas kind'a points out - that happily mis- and abuse the systems that be, that they don't ab- and misuse the systems?
I agree with those voices that think it's more reasonable to blame the system that allows for such abuse. Sure, CCP probably won't do much about it. But why should the players take over that responsibility from CCP, simply because CCP doesn't act?
Samira, you cited two articles to show that nowadays the Empire doesn't interfere in how Holders deal with slaves: There are a lot of more cases to cite, that the Empire doesn't mind working with Bloodraiders, Sansha and other kind of such people, that they rather reward them for shooting Matari and afford them official titles within the 24th Crusade. factually, given how it works in game, the Empire does not burn those sorts of people on stakes with laser fire, they do invite them into their military and give them strategic goals. - At least if one takes the FW institutions seriously as institutions of the Empires.
These are the kind of things why I take everything produced, PF-wise, by CCP employees cum grano salis. And it's big grains, indeed.
Anyhow:
If you can't do what you want in FW, but have to do what you don't want in FW, then there is, imho, an easy solution:
Walk away from FW. It's not like PIE didn't prosper before FW. And it did so in fighting along Amarr against the enemies of Amarr. It's pretty much feasible. Ofc. I dunno what PIE's stance is in this regard and how comitted they are to FW.
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If you wanted to fly with your OOC friends, and this is not an option for the current character you are playing, then you make new characters to do it with.
"But RL friendships" will never get a pass from me as an excuse to break character. IC/OOC separation.
Umm....no. No one would sacrifice years of training and character investment so someone else could feel better about rp purity when that person can't accept valid and logical reasons for their character doing what they're doing.
That's literally pants on head...
tapaderped
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Ultimately, for all those people who are basically skipping around the issue and going "I hate that Pyre have Sansha Loyalists in their ranks and they are flying with the Amarr" can simply tell me to my face that they want me not to fly with people I enjoy flying with for the sake of my RP purity, and then I will laugh and laugh and laugh and keep flying with people whom I enjoy flying with.
Tyvm!
Yes, you should not fly with people you enjoy flying with if flying with them is a breach of RP purity. What is the point of roleplaying if people are't actually going to play the role they chose to play?
All that being said, frankly Pyre is not the worst offender. If it was just Pyre I wouldn't really care. It's all the other ones in 24IC that piss me off.
Out of curiosity who are the other ones? Pyre was the only one I know about.
Everyone on these killmails:
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17950783
https://zkillboard.com/kill/37237863/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/42719933/
The only group I've ever heard of and taken seriously in Rp anything is Imperial Outlaws.
The rest just look like your typical FW corps. Or is that what you were talking about?
tapaderped
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If you wanted to fly with your OOC friends, and this is not an option for the current character you are playing, then you make new characters to do it with.
Not to answer for Tibs, but time invested in the character (4 years in his case)? Because it's a game and intended to be fun?
"But RL friendships" will never get a pass from me as an excuse to break character. IC/OOC separation.
This starts straying into YDIW territory. That may be how you choose to play, but it's not how he chooses to play.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that there is a problem with some of the people in FW and the loyalties they're expressing. But, I'll point out that the Sansha in PYRE aren't RPing the Sansha angle. They're RPing the defense of the Imperial war zone against enemies of the Empire.
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To put a more exact point on it, we are RPing the absolute murder of a group of capsuleers as an excuse to continue to fly with people whom we get along with OOC.
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The problem is they aren't -not- RPing Sansha either. If it were a case of everyone there being permanently retired from RPing and never showing up in RP channels I think there would be considerably more leeway given, as it would be viewed as a purely OOC issue.
Because they continue to RP and appear in RP channels, however, you run smack into the IC issue of remembering their past actions: Why should your character fly with someone who was kidnapping millions of your citizens yesterday, when said person is still active in character and shows absolutely zero change from their previous viewpoints or any actions and desire to compensate for what they've done?
Putting aside that, by PF, Sansha cannot be trusted if they just say they quit the Nation anyhow - I would not expect Esna to be forgiven if he suddenly joined Minmatar militia and made absolutely zero motion towards freeing slaves, breaking with the Empire, etc.
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If RP has become an unfun inconvenience, I don't think anyone would be upset about you just declaring you'll be an OOC player from now on and ditching it.
I mean that genuinely - I'm not trying to be passive-agressive.
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The issue here isn't people not flying with them: they have plenty of people in and out of corp who will fly with them.
It is the implied and occasionally explicit 'GTFO of Amarr Militia' message that is the issue. Blaming the symptom, not the cause.
Fortunately, having a minority of people not take your RP seriously is not exactly the burden it once was.
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If you wanted to fly with your OOC friends, and this is not an option for the current character you are playing, then you make new characters to do it with.
"But RL friendships" will never get a pass from me as an excuse to break character. IC/OOC separation.
Umm....no. No one would sacrifice years of training and character investment so someone else could feel better about rp purity when that person can't accept valid and logical reasons for their character doing what they're doing.
That's literally pants on head...
Don't put words in my mouth. I specifically said "if this is not an option for the current character". If they do have valid and logical in-character reasons then by all means. But if it's solely inventing BS reasons that don't make any sense for the character in order to support OOC wishes, that is quite simply bad RP.
A character should not be changed from what they are in order to support purely OOC desires.
The only group I've ever heard of and taken seriously in Rp anything is Imperial Outlaws.
The rest just look like your typical FW corps. Or is that what you were talking about?
EVE is a full-time IC game. Everything is RP. And if FW corps are acting like blood raiders, setting up slave massacres and boasting about their blood sacrifice on the IGS (which Fweddit did, and like Nauplius continually does), then that absolutely can and will be taken IC, no matter how RP-lite they might be.
Pyre are not the ones that are pissing me off. They are representative of the bigger problem, but they are one of the least offenders in my opinion.
Anyhow:
If you can't do what you want in FW, but have to do what you don't want in FW, then there is, imho, an easy solution:
Walk away from FW. It's not like PIE didn't prosper before FW. And it did so in fighting along Amarr against the enemies of Amarr. It's pretty much feasible. Ofc. I dunno what PIE's stance is in this regard and how comitted they are to FW.
Walking away from it is not a decision that is up to me. I am not PIE leadership.
I also think it's pretty hillarious to expect the one actual Amarr-loyal corporation in the militia to leave it, due to the infestation of non-loyal corps. Proves everything Miz said about it forcing off loyalists.
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Like I said, shitty game mechanics put RPers in impossible logic scenarios.
FW and its unintended shitty consequences is an absolute no-win situation for those RPers trying to maintain the smallest bit of character consistency and faction loyalty.
Unfortunately that game design ship has not only already sailed, it's been abandoned and on fire and filled with plague for going on 7 years now.
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Judge Anskek for new forum mod please.
Not even if you paid me.
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Ultimately, for all those people who are basically skipping around the issue and going "I hate that Pyre have Sansha Loyalists in their ranks and they are flying with the Amarr" can simply tell me to my face that they want me not to fly with people I enjoy flying with for the sake of my RP purity, and then I will laugh and laugh and laugh and keep flying with people whom I enjoy flying with.
Tyvm!
Yes, you should not fly with people you enjoy flying with if flying with them is a breach of RP purity. What is the point of roleplaying if people are't actually going to play the role they chose to play?
All that being said, frankly Pyre is not the worst offender. If it was just Pyre I wouldn't really care. It's all the other ones in 24IC that piss me off.
Out of curiosity who are the other ones? Pyre was the only one I know about.
Everyone on these killmails:
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17950783
https://zkillboard.com/kill/37237863/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/42719933/
There are a lot more blooders than that in the 24th.
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If you wanted to fly with your OOC friends, and this is not an option for the current character you are playing, then you make new characters to do it with.
"But RL friendships" will never get a pass from me as an excuse to break character. IC/OOC separation.
Umm....no. No one would sacrifice years of training and character investment so someone else could feel better about rp purity when that person can't accept valid and logical reasons for their character doing what they're doing.
That's literally pants on head...
Don't put words in my mouth. I specifically said "if this is not an option for the current character". If they do have valid and logical in-character reasons then by all means. But if it's solely inventing BS reasons that don't make any sense for the character in order to support OOC wishes, that is quite simply bad RP.
A character should not be changed from what they are in order to support purely OOC desires.
Not trying to put words in your mouth...thats how I interpreted it. I agree with you on the point about BS reasons being bad RP, but I don't see Tibs and company coming up with BS reasons.
The only group I've ever heard of and taken seriously in Rp anything is Imperial Outlaws.
The rest just look like your typical FW corps. Or is that what you were talking about?
EVE is a full-time IC game. Everything is RP. And if FW corps are acting like blood raiders, setting up slave massacres and boasting about their blood sacrifice on the IGS (which Fweddit did, and like Nauplius continually does), then that absolutely can and will be taken IC, no matter how RP-lite they might be.
Pyre are not the ones that are pissing me off. They are representative of the bigger problem, but they are one of the least offenders in my opinion.
Pretty sure Fweddit may at most be RP-Troll'n. Which is why I generally don't take them or any other groups that do that very seriously at all. Sure they do something and I'll react then I'll forget about it once the stink dies down and never mention it again.
EVE isn't a full time IC game for everyone. The people that actually RP I'll pay attention to, but the rest not so much usually.
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If you wanted to fly with your OOC friends, and this is not an option for the current character you are playing, then you make new characters to do it with.
Not to answer for Tibs, but time invested in the character (4 years in his case)? Because it's a game and intended to be fun?
"But RL friendships" will never get a pass from me as an excuse to break character. IC/OOC separation.
This starts straying into YDIW territory. That may be how you choose to play, but it's not how he chooses to play.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that there is a problem with some of the people in FW and the loyalties they're expressing. But, I'll point out that the Sansha in PYRE aren't RPing the Sansha angle. They're RPing the defense of the Imperial war zone against enemies of the Empire.
As I see it actions in EVE have consequences and can't be OOC.
But the OOC reason for doing something and the IC reason for doing something don't have to match. And the OOC reason can drive the IC reason. I don't see *anything* wrong with molding your character to be able to fly with friends. But if you change your actions you are also changing your characters.
And well, if you have a character that is say 100% anti-Sansha flying with a Sansha character for OOC friend reasons, the 100% anti-Sansha character has an IC problem that they need to deal with. If the player ignores it, then they are playing a character that is actively ignoring a problem because it is too much to deal with. This is fine. People do it all the time. But that ignoring the problem is in and of itself an IC action as well as an OOC one.
I also don't actually think RP is shrinking so much as diffusing. Faction RP is *certainly* smaller than it was at one point in time. But that shouldn't be too surprising given the overall direction of EVE's marketing.
Also, I actually had some good local RP with a U'K member while chasing each-other around some FW system or another a week or so ago. So that side of things isn't *completely* dead.
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Not trying to put words in your mouth...thats how I interpreted it. I agree with you on the point about BS reasons being bad RP, but I don't see Tibs and company coming up with BS reasons.
The intent behind my initial response was simply this:
In a case where there is a conflict between maintaining character integrity versus fulfilling OOC desires, then maintaining character integrity comes first in my opinion.
Pretty sure Fweddit may at most be RP-Troll'n. Which is why I generally don't take them or any other groups that do that very seriously at all. Sure they do something and I'll react then I'll forget about it once the stink dies down and never mention it again.
EVE isn't a full time IC game for everyone. The people that actually RP I'll pay attention to, but the rest not so much usually.
They may not be, but the game as a whole is. When these things happen, they happen within the universe, and that means I need to react to everything from an in-character perspective. That means I cannot pick and choose who I pay attention to based on my OOC beliefs, nor based on whether I OOCly consciously know that they are just trolling. Because by the nature of the game it isn't just OOC trolling, because the moment it affects the game world it is also IC trolling. In-game actions are IC. My character will necessarily have to respond to it based on her in-character beliefs.
And in the time that I've been playing I've had to respond to it on a very frequent basis.
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I'm not even gonna try to break up quotes on my phone....so
Samira I totally agree with you on that top quote, and sorry I misinterpreted a bit.
On the second bit I do see your point and I react to them as well, but not as much as I would say...Samira suddenly defecting to U'K.
tapaderped
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*The state of RP is dead. I blame that one corp of RPers who are having a great time playing the game, being friendly to each other, RPing internally within their corp, and interacting with the rest of the RP community.*
Seriously a lot of this thread reads like "It's not fair that people are having fun without me." There are very frequently complaints on this very forum that RP corporations don't do anything in space. That RP groups only interact with their own insular groups. That RP doesn't have consequences. PYRE is doing all of those things.
We're active in space everyday. We interact with RPers in every faction, whether they want it or not. I can't speak for every member, but I certainly know I spend a lot of my RP time dealing with the consequences of being a PYRE member. It's a lot of fun. I get to be involved in the story. I get to be part of the RP collective conversation instead of being a fly on the wall in a dozen dead RP channels wondering why I even paid that $15.
Haters are gonna hate, but at least we're giving the rest of you something to talk about.
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Redacted. Not worth it.
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Why should your character fly with someone who was kidnapping millions of your citizens yesterday, when said person is still active in character and shows absolutely zero change from their previous viewpoints or any actions and desire to compensate for what they've done?
All four empires, which includes Amarr/Minmatar and Caldari/Gallente, did team up together to fight Nation. As well as all four empires make up CONCORD which is an agreement and cooperation to a unified system of relative law and order.
But yet we have other people here who cannot possibly ever, ever stand Pirates who've decided to work with non Pirates on unified goals.
So what, your Empires can be shades of grey but Pirate RPers MUST be black and white?
Related, why do people insist that someone CANNOT POSSIBLY be a Pirate supporter yet simultaneously not be all for murdering everyone 110% of the time? Being on opposing sides of a war doesn't mean I must froth at the mouth and be unable to have goals, plans, and temporary alliances.
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I don't think this ends up being a constructive or fair argument.
The game mechanics are allowing a thing to happen that wouldn't happen if more attention were paid to the game mechanics and story of the game.
This isn't a new phenomenon with EVE.
Some people put their OOC fun first and foremost and then wrap a looser skin of IC justification around their actions after the fact (we are all guilty of some of this, very much myself included).
This, naturally, rustles the jimmies of those who think it should be the other way around. We've all got different thresholds for this sort of shit.
Let's not all be mean to Samira though I think she does have valid points here. If I'm an Amarr loyalist doing my utmost to fight for the Empress and a bunch of Sansha et all are let into the militia it is pretty ridiculous IC. It's hard not to be defeatist about the whole damn thing and the whole overall PF if it gets rubbed in your face? From Samira's point of view the other people get to have all the fun, do whatever they want, and to her not have a good IC justification. Why bother trying to work to maintain IC credibility when all of these other people appear to give 0 fucks about it? I totally get it.
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Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.
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Gaven, I think we're agreeing in principle, even if we're not agreeing in execution.
The problem I see, and why I think it's in YDIW territory, is if a player says "I'm flying with these people because they are my friends," and people just keep harassing them over it. Tibs wants to fly with his friends. Fine. Let him. PYRE RPs, but I would say not to the extent of PIE. And that's fine.
And here's the problem with the state of RP: it's in danger of devolving into One True Wayism. If hardcore RPers demand that everyone wanting to RP with them be hardcore RPers, they're going to lose people. They're going to be labelled as elitist jerks. And the community will shrink or fragment.
And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, either. I'm saying that the attitudes that are being expressed here come across as intolerant.
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Why should your character fly with someone who was kidnapping millions of your citizens yesterday, when said person is still active in character and shows absolutely zero change from their previous viewpoints or any actions and desire to compensate for what they've done?
All four empires, which includes Amarr/Minmatar and Caldari/Gallente, did team up together to fight Nation. As well as all four empires make up CONCORD which is an agreement and cooperation to a unified system of relative law and order.
But yet we have other people here who cannot possibly ever, ever stand Pirates who've decided to work with non Pirates on unified goals.
So what, your Empires can be shades of grey but Pirate RPers MUST be black and white?
Related, why do people insist that someone CANNOT POSSIBLY be a Pirate supporter yet simultaneously not be all for murdering everyone 110% of the time? Being on opposing sides of a war doesn't mean I must froth at the mouth and be unable to have goals, plans, and temporary alliances.
When they teamed up, they had already jointly created CONCORD as a way to unite and move past the previous conflicts. They weren't at war at the time.
When war was a factor, that is, during the Nation Resurgence, the Empire and Republic did briefly team up but went right back to shooting each other the moment the main threat was off the field.
Honestly, the RP at Naup's tower last night was probably the closest to how things should be. Everyone working against a common threat, but all jockeying to get positions on one another in preparation for a fire fight during or after it went down. That was fun.
Let's not all be mean to Samira though I think she does have valid points here. If I'm an Amarr loyalist doing my utmost to fight for the Empress and a bunch of Sansha et all are let into the militia it is pretty ridiculous IC. It's hard not to be defeatist about the whole damn thing and the whole overall PF if it gets rubbed in your face? From Samira's point of view the other people get to have all the fun, do whatever they want, and to her not have a good IC justification. Why bother trying to work to maintain IC credibility when all of these other people appear to give 0 fucks about it? I totally get it.
For what it's worth I'd like to again clarify that my big issue is with the blooder corps and not Pyre. Pyre, for everything that it is, does play the morally dubious PMC element. It does keep a lid on the worst issues and, in spite of its associations, focuses on the fighting. It even helps against the blooders. It has been fun to RP with, partially due to its controversial nature, and as said the events of last night were very fun.
So again, the main issue for me is the blooder corps that are part of 24IC while making overt blood sacrifices and claiming they are loyalists.
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Gaven, I think we're agreeing in principle, even if we're not agreeing in execution.
The problem I see, and why I think it's in YDIW territory, is if a player says "I'm flying with these people because they are my friends," and people just keep harassing them over it. Tibs wants to fly with his friends. Fine. Let him. PYRE RPs, but I would say not to the extent of PIE. And that's fine.
And here's the problem with the state of RP: it's in danger of devolving into One True Wayism. If hardcore RPers demand that everyone wanting to RP with them be hardcore RPers, they're going to lose people. They're going to be labelled as elitist jerks. And the community will shrink or fragment.
And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, either. I'm saying that the attitudes that are being expressed here come across as intolerant.
It's not YDIW, it's attempting to call out illogical IC behavior.
If Imperial Loyalist Rodj Blake shows up to a Blood Raider party and cuts some people and participates in an Orgy and then keeps doing the loyalist thing, people are justified to call that out as wildly inconsistent. Rodj will either adapt the character to the actions that took place or *shrug* and say he likes those people OOC and wanted to have fun.
Some things when going un-acknowledged end up peeing in other people's community RP pool is all. This bothers some more than others.
So I'm not calling out anyone for anything, but trying to explain what I think is some of the loyalist views here: If hated faction X is suddenly party of loyalist militia Y, it rustles Jimmies. Hated faction X players are under no obligation to explain their behavior, they are having OOC fun doing their thang. Loyalist Players Y also have a good excuse for WTF? reactions, etc.
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Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?
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Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.
Nah, its FW. From day one we had open blood raiders and self-identified generic pirates in the Amarr Militia. This isn't something that happened in the pre-militia FW test runs, there the blood raider players stayed separate and maintained their own agenda (i.e. shot both sides).
PIE and 1PG got in a bit of a fight over it with PIE choosing to accept that we couldn't police the militia and 1PG refusing to fly with the riff raff.
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EVE is a game of freelance capsuleers fighting for causes: Money, loyalities, thrill, camaraderie, grudges, fame and infamy.
As a group of players we are enjoying ourselves in the little gameplay niche that is lowsec/FW for a combination of both legacy and practical reasons (content generation). We also have a sizeable contingent of long-term roleplayers stemming from different angles that share the same or similar gameplay interests and OOC sympathies. By capitalizing on the freelancer/merc angle presented to us by the game we, as a group, have found a way to merge different IC allegiances under one coherent banner in an attempt to strike a compromise between IC and OOC interests.
In the end, as a corporation, our main goal is to provide a platform for our players to engage in the game and have fun with friends. The secondary goal, IC, is to forge a heterogenous group of professionals into an effective combat group: a PMC looking for guns for hire. The moral implications of using these often questionable individuals for just causes can be explored by everyone according to their own moral compass.
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Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.
Nah, its FW. From day one we had open blood raiders and self-identified generic pirates in the Amarr Militia. This isn't something that happened in the pre-militia FW test runs, there the blood raider players stayed separate and maintained their own agenda (i.e. shot both sides).
PIE and 1PG got in a bit of a fight over it with PIE choosing to accept that we couldn't police the militia and 1PG refusing to fly with the riff raff.
I meant pirates in general, not just RP groups.
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All four empires, which includes Amarr/Minmatar and Caldari/Gallente, did team up together to fight Nation. As well as all four empires make up CONCORD which is an agreement and cooperation to a unified system of relative law and order.
Because Nation represented a significant issue to all four empires, placing them far above the threat of any of the individual quibbles between the empires at that point. To the Minmatar, the rising Nation represented a more immediate problem given that the Amarr had been temporarily forced onto their back foot; to the Gallente, Nation was far more of an assault on their notions of personal freedom than the colonies they'd recently ended a painful, grinding war of questionable morality with.
Today, however, not only does Nation continue to wage an ongoing war against the 4 empires and capsuleers both, but there is no existential threat on the scale of what Nation was during the first war to even make a desire for an alliance in the first place. I would actually say there is more grounds for an alliance between militias against Nation - something that happened repeatedly during the Incursion live events - on account of militias being bound by the limitations of the Yulai Emergency Militia War Powers Act whereas Nation is an outside actor and unbound by CONCORD or the EMWPA.
But yet we have other people here who cannot possibly ever, ever stand Pirates who've decided to work with non Pirates on unified goals.
Well, yes. Some of us play characters with moral scales which demand they do not work with entities that are actively undermining the faction they are loyal to unless a much larger issue exists that they can agree on. Said issue does not exist at this time. I would also note this is not the first time we've had this issue; a few years back we had a Blood Raider corp join Amarr Militia and claim this meant the Amarr 'accepted' them even though they were blooders.
So what, your Empires can be shades of grey but Pirate RPers MUST be black and white?
Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.
Related, why do people insist that someone CANNOT POSSIBLY be a Pirate supporter yet simultaneously not be all for murdering everyone 110% of the time? Being on opposing sides of a war doesn't mean I must froth at the mouth and be unable to have goals, plans, and temporary alliances.
I don't think anyone is saying this.
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Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?
That's not what I'm saying at all.
What I'm saying is when the OOC player says "I just want to fly with these people OOC and have fun" then that is what it is, and people will respond as they feel accordingly.
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Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?
That's not what I'm saying at all.
What I'm saying is when the OOC player says "I just want to fly with these people OOC and have fun" then that is what it is, and people will respond as they feel accordingly.
As they have and apparently will always respond. The Butterfly Effect is real.
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Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?
Who are you to decide what other people should take seriously? No one around here is going to try and force anything on anyone else (admittedly largely because that's mechanically impossible), but we certainly are free to see if words match action and if they don't, we can make our own decisions regarding the veracity of a character. Make your decisions and do what you want. No one can force anything else on you, but we can have our own views on the matter.
There's little to get out of this topic anymore. I'm pretty sure Silas has nailed repeatedly why FW is currently absolute horseshit and neither makes sense, nor any good things for the RP community overall.
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Gaven, I think we're agreeing in principle, even if we're not agreeing in execution.
The problem I see, and why I think it's in YDIW territory, is if a player says "I'm flying with these people because they are my friends," and people just keep harassing them over it. Tibs wants to fly with his friends. Fine. Let him. PYRE RPs, but I would say not to the extent of PIE. And that's fine.
And here's the problem with the state of RP: it's in danger of devolving into One True Wayism. If hardcore RPers demand that everyone wanting to RP with them be hardcore RPers, they're going to lose people. They're going to be labelled as elitist jerks. And the community will shrink or fragment.
And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, either. I'm saying that the attitudes that are being expressed here come across as intolerant.
I don't actually think we are really disagreeing at all. I am mostly arguing that the judging should be done IC.
The only time that I think it becomes a problem OOC is when someone who is playing a character that is ignoring these sorts tries to OOCly argue that their character isn't doing the actions that the character clearly is doing in game. ICly, the character can have all the cognitive dissonance that the player wants it to and I have no problem with them OOC. Gaven the character will think they are full of shit, but then Gaven has quite a few blind spots, himself.
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There's always going to be different sorts of players with different personal scales for how they want to play and see things in their little worlds.
The game engine and game mechanics unfortunately are the unifying factor here, and haven't been designed with a fidelity and depth to match the fidelity and depth of players' imaginations.
And I get it, frankly it's 100% more fun and less burdensome to say fuck it and fly with people you've come to really get along with OOC, or with the militia you like, or with the null block you like, etc. At a certain point trying to maintain IC purity just gets to be a chore.
I just wish the game itself did a better job of making those decisions work WITH the lore and the IP of the game, instead of mocking it.
S. becoming an ebil piwate had much, much more to do with liking the OOC gameplay of shooting everyone, and NBSI, and the people OOC in fleets and corps as opposed to the pain in the ass of IC diplomacy and dealing with standings and associate horseshit. It was like a weight being lifted after being a loyalist for years being able to say 'fuck all that noise, I fly with who i want and shoot who i want now, damn the Amarr Faction straightjacket"
I'm not pissing on PYRE or the Sansha people here believe me.
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Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.
Nah, its FW. From day one we had open blood raiders and self-identified generic pirates in the Amarr Militia. This isn't something that happened in the pre-militia FW test runs, there the blood raider players stayed separate and maintained their own agenda (i.e. shot both sides).
PIE and 1PG got in a bit of a fight over it with PIE choosing to accept that we couldn't police the militia and 1PG refusing to fly with the riff raff.
I meant pirates in general, not just RP groups.
Are you defining pirate by CONCORD sec status? Then I would agree, the mechanics cause people who would otherwise have positive sec status to go negative.
But people who identify as pirates themselves (and most of these wouldn't call themselves RPers) have been active in FW from the beginning. Though there are fewer of them in FW now that you get locked out of stations when you lose a system.
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I don't actually think we are really disagreeing at all. I am mostly arguing that the judging should be done IC.
Fair enough. Point in fact, I've found the IC questioning of Jenn's participation in Amarr FW to be quite enjoyable. To be honest, Jenn should never have joined for various IC reason; however, if need be, I can provide an IC justification.
The only time that I think it becomes a problem OOC is when someone who is playing a character that is ignoring these sorts tries to OOCly argue that their character isn't doing the actions that the character clearly is doing in game. ICly, the character can have all the cognitive dissonance that the player wants it to and I have no problem with them OOC. Gaven the character will think they are full of shit, but then Gaven has quite a few blind spots, himself.
Yeah, I think we're agreeing on this.
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Anyhow:
If you can't do what you want in FW, but have to do what you don't want in FW, then there is, imho, an easy solution:
Walk away from FW. It's not like PIE didn't prosper before FW. And it did so in fighting along Amarr against the enemies of Amarr. It's pretty much feasible. Ofc. I dunno what PIE's stance is in this regard and how comitted they are to FW.
Walking away from it is not a decision that is up to me. I am not PIE leadership.
I also think it's pretty hillarious to expect the one actual Amarr-loyal corporation in the militia to leave it, due to the infestation of non-loyal corps. Proves everything Miz said about it forcing off loyalists.
Well, you can always leave PIE, I assume?
Also, I'm not demanding anything: I'm just saying that if you can't live with the very real consequence that joining Amarr FW means flying with loads of Blooders, Sansha and other IC scum, then walk away. It's up to you, really.
If you think that you should stay even more, because otherwise there would be no real loyalists left in Amarr FW, then stay.
The reality is, though: You can't have both (that is staying there and not having Blooders, Sansha etc. in the 24th).
Blaming the others that there are not the consequences for them, that ought to be there if it was up to you is far removed from the 'you have to live with the consequences' that EVE puts on it's players. they are not responsible for enacting the consequences that aren't really there, but which you want to see. It's not the obligation of those that get into a factions milita, even though the faction 'wouldn't want them', to police themselves: That's the factions obligation - and by extension CCPs.
Let's not all be mean to Samira though I think she does have valid points here. If I'm an Amarr loyalist doing my utmost to fight for the Empress and a bunch of Sansha et all are let into the militia it is pretty ridiculous IC. It's hard not to be defeatist about the whole damn thing and the whole overall PF if it gets rubbed in your face? From Samira's point of view the other people get to have all the fun, do whatever they want, and to her not have a good IC justification. Why bother trying to work to maintain IC credibility when all of these other people appear to give 0 fucks about it? I totally get it.
I get it as well, but she's blaming the wrong people here. There is no obligation in EVE to stay IC or be IC at all - at least not in a refined sense of IC that pertains to roleplaying. It's a game. If anyone is to blame that FW is really problematic in regard to immersion, then it's CCP. One should leave ones complaints where they belong.
Also, in generalk people IRL can be and oftentimes are inconsistent in their behaviour. Why not IC? Everyone is free to react ICly to that as they see fit, I haven't seen Tibs or anyone being awry with such IC reactions - why make an OOC thing (TM) out of it?
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Tibs knows I loves him almost as much as I love harvesting conflict tears from IC and OOC sources.
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There is no obligation in EVE to stay IC or be IC at all - at least not in a refined sense of IC that pertains to roleplaying. It's a game.
Wish people had that attitude about 2 years ago. Would have saved a lot of grief.
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Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.
And there in lies the problem. No one looks deeply enough to see anything but what they assume is there.
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Also, can we please stop referring to PYRE as "full of nation loyalists"? There are like... 7 of them? In a 50 man Corp. There are also Angels and Serpentis, one or two Sani Sabik and quite a few Caldari. The whole point of PYRE is that it brings together disparate groups under one banner and gives them set goals to pursue. Goals which, at least so far, have not put us in direct conflict with any Amarr militia Corp except Nauplius.
I know it's slightly off topic but it does bug me when people talk about PYRE as if the Sansha were the only people in it.
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Multicultural F1 Brigade both IC and OOC
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That happens because they're the most seen and active in your corp kalaballarollinharda
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I know it's slightly off topic but it does bug me when people talk about PYRE as if the Sansha were the only people in it.
You just need a Sansha Happy Chip, remember those? :) Problem solved!
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Actually the most active people in our corp are Shiva Makoto, Zanzibar, Gorp, and Desiderya. I'm personally not even in the top 10!
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Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.
And there in lies the problem. No one looks deeply enough to see anything but what they assume is there.
Well, it is what you get when you read the IGS or what is said in the Summit. I have to deal with the entirety of New Eden giving Miz crap over 1k-1 when she wasn't even in the corp at the time, because there's no real reason anyone should believe differently than what they've been fed, and there's not really any reason why anyone should think differently of the Sansha.
Also, can we please stop referring to PYRE as "full of nation loyalists"? There are like... 7 of them? In a 50 man Corp. There are also Angels and Serpentis, one or two Sani Sabik and quite a few Caldari. The whole point of PYRE is that it brings together disparate groups under one banner and gives them set goals to pursue. Goals which, at least so far, have not put us in direct conflict with any Amarr militia Corp except Nauplius.
I know it's slightly off topic but it does bug me when people talk about PYRE as if the Sansha were the only people in it.
Well... it is the impression one gets when the TSF members are the vocal ones on the Summit, the IGS etc. Particularly when it's "murder all capsuleers, all the time!" that gets repeated the most. What else lies in Pyre is almost never seen nor heard.
tl;dr, make them your PR department and people will look to that.
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Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.
And there in lies the problem. No one looks deeply enough to see anything but what they assume is there.
That's true of a lot of things. Especially true at times with this crowd. :)
I always looked at the Blooders, Guristas, Sansha, and whoever or whatever else that came and went in FW like I would privateers. They have their letter of marque and they do work. That doesn't always mean that Blood Raider Baddie went up to Jamyl herself and was all like "What up...lemme kill Minnies for you." Chances are they did it way more subtly than that through various proxies and payoffs and whatever other cloak and dagger stuff you want to throw in there. Bottom line of it there isn't much anyone can do about it. What it is, is what it is and we as players and character have to deal with it. 8)
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That happens because they're the most seen and active in your corp kalaballarollinharda
dat confirmation bias
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You don't play Tibs. You've ascended to apex god hood bitter vetdom. You have no need for such lower desires. You are all but not. Knowing but not. You can see forever.
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Well, it is what you get when you read the IGS or what is said in the Summit. I have to deal with the entirety of New Eden giving Miz crap over 1k-1 when she wasn't even in the corp at the time...
Who?
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As an organization we have made different attempts to better community relations. This has ranged from standing requests to cut down on antagonizing/fueling the fires in OOC/IC channels, even if it is in response to the vitriol our members get by proxy of existing.
More important we have attempted to mediate a compromise OOCly to establish relations that can be described as brittle but not outright hostile, as was deemed appropriate, in order to be able to get by our daily gameplay without weekly shouting matches. The OOC responses we have got were due to the desire to be consequent in IC to get rid of our Angel and Sansha pilots/players just to start negotiations.
edit: Made the last sentence more clear.
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Define move on.
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Kala: I don't really think you will get anywhere trying to keep people from making that judgement about PYRE. In an OOC discussion it is a bit of an IC to OOC bleed to stereotype PYRE by its Sansha members, I would absolutely agree, but to Gaven ICly PYRE is now defined by its Sansha members simply because they have more Sansha than basically anyone else and those Sansha are the most prominent Sansha of the last few years. Also because he views Sansha as a contagious disease. At this point Gaven assumes that anyone in PYRE probably has been nanited, cause he is paranoid like that.
OOC I can agree that defining PYRE as Sansha is not really fair (Also that Gaven is *not* a fair person). But its easy to let the IC mindset takeover. With some players I think it is even *good* for them to restrict their OOC worldview to their IC worldview of EVE as it helps keep the character's reactions pure.
But I do absolutely get how it can be annoying. PIE has certainly had to deal with similar OOC stereotypes over the years, and it took me a *long* time to quit trying to argue about them. (See Chatsubo thread-naughts for evidence of this!)
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Define move on.
We did not pursue talks after this point because these demands were purposefully unreasonable.
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Sansha are the most recognized part of it, because Sansha are the ones people see talking under the PYRE name the most.
And there in lies the problem. No one looks deeply enough to see anything but what they assume is there.
People see Sansha show up in channels, being Sansha IC, without any observable change except the PYRE corp ticker. So, they ask for a rationale, and see PYRE making absolutely no moves to respond to the issue except to say 'deal with it' in various ways.
So, they come to the conclusion that PYRE is aware of Nation supporters within their ranks, either does not care or is actively supporting them, and base their reactions off of that.
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Define move on.
We did not pursue talks after this point because these demands were purposefully unreasonable.
So not 'may' move on, but have moved on.
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You misunderstand. Provided we got rid of a sizeable number of our corp members, we may have gotten into the second round of negotiations with unclear outcome.
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Oh. So you tried, but you deemed the demands unreasonable, so negotiations never took off at all, as the reason for having them in the first place would have been moot with the departure of certain groups.
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You misunderstand. Provided we got rid of a sizeable number of our corp members, we may have gotten into the second round of negotiations with unclear outcome.
What shittery is this? Some sort of RP ultimatum? Lasers are your response, good sir. But share the deets
Was this ooc or ic negotiating?
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Out of Character.
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Well I got to page 7 before I just had to post sorry Mizhara but your attitude in a sandbox and going "Hurrrr you can't join faction warfare because your characters" makes me just sigh.
Going with my own 'blooder' Kalo Askold she was first in the TLF and well....Meta happened with Late Night Alliance with a name of Bahumont420 trying to Awoxer her twice. She (I) let him go the first time after he lost without an attempted scramming; then scrammed him the second time, him and his alliance griped to militia and set me to red in an NPC corp.
I could have gone on about how "oh they are just pirates, kick them out CCP" but instead I used that for RP for her to hate militia and go into the pirating lifestyle with Anslo and scopeworks (Yes yes hurrr scopeworks they suck so much hurr) but instead she had fun sticking it to LNR until eventually Silas wanted help from scopeworks and I went over into "Jihad squad" to help out and be general meat shield.
In Jihad squad I actually learned how to fly larger stuff OOCly and different things like low-low wormholes to screw people over and how to be a really dickish pilot and ICly Kalo was more of a merc that helped a blooder and never got burned for it like she did in the minmatar militia and by the Amarr with the whole slavery thing.
Now with Silas gone due to other games and I think general apathy with EVE (Come back Silas!) Kalo now joined with another Blooder corp which has given her free stuff and a chance to fight Amarr while having friends to support her to keep something like LNR from happening again.
If this makes her bad, or myself a bad RPer for this long circle from almost a year's worth of RP....Well 'lol' set me to red and see if I care; more content for me. If you don't or if you war deck still 'Lol' and enjoy yourself. Insta warps and insta docks are there for a reason; again more content. Now back to the regular scheduled program of reading the rest of the pages 7 through 11.
Thank you.
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Hearts for you too Kalo. You made me LOL at work here saying you learned in Jihadasquad how to be a dickish pilot. :twisted:
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Confirming we need Silas back (FC of our hearts).
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Hearts for you too Kalo. You made me LOL at work here saying you learned in Jihadasquad how to be a dickish pilot. :twisted:
Well...when I worked with them and you on Ember...I learned a bit about being dickish too lol.
Also...seconding the comeback :cube:
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I'm just sitting back here reading all this going 'hey, you know what doesn't suck? Wormholes'
(http://i.imgur.com/L10vCNs.jpg)
My RP has been going strong for over 2 years now, and we've built up something awesome. It seems to me like if FW is such a problem, then people could, oh. I don't know, leave faction warfare and do something else to support their factions? Like people did before faction warfare?
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There was also some IC negotiating back when the news of PYRE+TSF broke. PIE's response when the whole PYRE/TS-F issue started was basically an IC ultimatum from PIE saying cease and desist all contact with Sansha. PYRE (quite reasonably, really, given their agenda) chose to ignore that. Then there was a whole lot of IC negotiating with PIE and I.LAW trying to marginalize PYRE while PYRE was in I.LAW, which ofc didn't go in PIE's favor.
There isn't really any middle ground to make a compromise on between a group like PIE and PYRE at this point.
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Confirming we need Silas back (FC of our hearts).
stahp.
stahp it
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I'm just sitting back here reading all this going 'hey, you know what doesn't suck? Wormholes'
My RP has been going strong for over 2 years now, and we've built up something awesome. It seems to me like if FW is such a problem, then people could, oh. I don't know, leave faction warfare and do something else to support their factions? Like people did before faction warfare?
This actually gets to my point earlier about RP diffusing. Faction RP is not and should not be the end all of RP, even if it is the end all of my personal RP.
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Confirming we need Silas back (FC of our hearts).
stahp.
stahp it
Come back FC.
We have gold.
Love the gold FC.
Love it so much.
EF CEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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I'm just sitting back here reading all this going 'hey, you know what doesn't suck? Wormholes'
My RP has been going strong for over 2 years now, and we've built up something awesome. It seems to me like if FW is such a problem, then people could, oh. I don't know, leave faction warfare and do something else to support their factions? Like people did before faction warfare?
This actually gets to my point earlier about RP diffusing. Faction RP is not and should not be the end all of RP, even if it is the end all of my personal RP.
Quoted for awesome truthiness! Also: RP is also great in Carebear land! Faction RP doesn't end with FW.
(http://www.pitch.com/imager/studies-in-crap-sticks-up-for-the-care-bears-who-are-totally-not-satanic/b/original/2568925/42f1/CareBears_Star.jpg)
Actually, everything looks brighter here! <3
P.S.: Did I mention it? We even have rainbow coloured beams!
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After several months of angst and scurrying I have learned to, basically, love the bomb. The facts being that the people I love to actually play the game part of the game with not being compatible with the mini-game that is RP within the game.
The final part of that really happened yesterday when I shot at and was shot at by State Loyalists. I can still cling to the sophistry that they are filthy liberals whom my parent Mega is not pleased with at the moment, anyway, and that this kind of proxy war is very Pre-Heth State, and so I'm gonna do that.
But yes, I'm aware of the contradictions, I just choose to handwave them rather than go full-pirate.
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But yes, I'm aware of the contradictions, I just choose to handwave them rather than go full-pirate.
For now.... :twisted:
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As much as I appreciate my new corpies who are Sansha, Angel, Guri, whatever, I don't feel like emulating them. Even though my project of rp'ing the difficulties of being a Loyalist and a Capsuleer has gone totally WTFROFLCOPTER.
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Disregard loyalties, create your own faction.
Love the gold. All the gold.
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Disregard loyalties, create your own faction.
Love the gold. All the gold.
This.
Origin faction best faction <3
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I'm happy to hear that you 'hand-wave' them, rather than going fll pirate. And as I said: People IRL are inconsitent, too, so why do we need to bee all consistent in the actions of our characters?
On a more serious note about Carebears and Wormholes:
I think that Faction RP suffered a lot from focusing too much on FW. There are many other avenues to explore for Faction RPers: One of the gaps I've tried to close with founding SFRIM and which, I feel, is realized by those able hands I was lucky to get into corp. (I'm not good at realizing stuff. Thanks to Luna and Lucas is due here, but also all the others.) If FW becomes unbearable for RPers, Faction RP still has stuff to do! No one needs to fear it has to dissolve under those circumstances.
What would also be interesting to see is Amarrian wormhole corps, trying to claim W-space in the name of Amarr. I think Kithrus is doing stuff there. It's a good opportunity for the Amarr bloc to show that we have a hand for working together and 'winning' through 'superior administration', again.
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Disregard loyalties, create your own faction.
Love the gold. All the gold.
Gold = Amarr
You are aware of that law of nature, aren't you? ;)
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Disregard loyalties, create your own faction.
Love the gold. All the gold.
This.
Origin faction best faction <3
UM FC?
HELLO?
BALLER FACTION CLEARLY STRONKEST))
just lucky puny hole worm not fit girth of mighty serb apex force)))
@Nico: Wrong gold FC.
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Disregard loyalties, create your own faction.
Love the gold. All the gold.
This.
Origin faction best faction <3
UM FC?
HELLO?
BALLER FACTION CLEARLY STRONKEST))
just lucky puny hole worm not fit girth of mighty serb apex force)))
lucky indeed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHLdYVELWrQ)
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Disregard loyalties, create your own faction.
Love the gold. All the gold.
This.
Origin faction best faction <3
UM FC?
HELLO?
BALLER FACTION CLEARLY STRONKEST))
just lucky puny hole worm not fit girth of mighty serb apex force)))
@Nico: Fake gold FC.
fixed that for you! ;)
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@ Saede: WOW FC WHAT THE ACTUAL EFF
@Nico: Rude.
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Wormholes are irrelevant, because the RP in them might as well be in a different game, because of the fundamental lack of interaction between wormholes and the rest of the universe. The whole thing about being able to physically control access by closing the wormholes as they open, limits interaction with the rest of the game world. Other than noise in chat channels.
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No RP is irrelevant.
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Wormholes are irrelevant, because the RP in them might as well be in a different game, because of the fundamental lack of interaction between wormholes and the rest of the universe. The whole thing about being able to physically control access by closing the wormholes as they open, limits interaction with the rest of the game world. Other than noise in chat channels.
Yikes, no.
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No, RP is irrelevant.
fixed that for you, again!
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No, RP is irrelevant.
fixed that for you, again!
Stahp
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Wormholes are irrelevant, because the RP in them might as well be in a different game, because of the fundamental lack of interaction between wormholes and the rest of the universe. The whole thing about being able to physically control access by closing the wormholes as they open, limits interaction with the rest of the game world. Other than noise in chat channels.
Clearly you just don't understand how to wormholes.
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There's plenty of stuff going on in, around, and between wormholes, and they are all valid parts of the game.
In fact it's one of the few dynamic parts of the game going on these days.
Wormhole entities opening portals into normal reality, launching piratical attacks, and vanishing back into their territory. It's actually very neat RP to interact with on either side. There's opportunities for pew pew, character work, etc.
I think you're statements are coming more from a place perhaps of unfamiliarity?
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After several months of angst and scurrying I have learned to, basically, love the bomb. The facts being that the people I love to actually play the game part of the game with not being compatible with the mini-game that is RP within the game.
The final part of that really happened yesterday when I shot at and was shot at by State Loyalists. I can still cling to the sophistry that they are filthy liberals whom my parent Mega is not pleased with at the moment, anyway, and that this kind of proxy war is very Pre-Heth State, and so I'm gonna do that.
But yes, I'm aware of the contradictions, I just choose to handwave them rather than go full-pirate.
*got to lock Pieter*
Sami really didn't want to fire IC. But I really really wanted to fire OOC. Does that make me a bad person. <.<
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After several months of angst and scurrying I have learned to, basically, love the bomb. The facts being that the people I love to actually play the game part of the game with not being compatible with the mini-game that is RP within the game.
The final part of that really happened yesterday when I shot at and was shot at by State Loyalists. I can still cling to the sophistry that they are filthy liberals whom my parent Mega is not pleased with at the moment, anyway, and that this kind of proxy war is very Pre-Heth State, and so I'm gonna do that.
But yes, I'm aware of the contradictions, I just choose to handwave them rather than go full-pirate.
*got to lock Pieter*
Sami really didn't want to fire IC. But I really really wanted to fire OOC. Does that make me a bad person. <.<
Goooooood, gooooooooooood. Releaaaaase your aaaaangeeeer. Feeeeeel the POWER...of the daaaaaark siiiiiide.
-
This thread reminds me of some of the threads that used to appear on a different forum, years ago. Before FW.
When FW appeared, and numerous "non-rp" corporations joined, there was a lot of sound and fury on that forum.
The argument generally went:
1. That player JerkAss McJerk is a rude obnoxious player, who makes -ist comments in local whenever they are engaged by our corporation.
2. JerkAss McJerk is in Particular Militia.
3. Therefore it is incumbent on RPers of Particular Faction to police the entire militia.
4. Since Particular Faction RPers have not policed JerkAss McJerk out of Particular Militia, it is clear that Particular Faction RPers are Bad People, who condone -ist behaviour.
5. Shame on Particular Faction RPers. Shame. Shaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
:|
The accompanying argument was:
1. Particular Militia exists.
2. Particular faction RPers not engaged in FW, are obviously Bad Players who lack RP integrity, and thus can be completely ignored OOC and IC, as having irrelevant opinions.
3. Shame on Particular Faction RPers. Shaaaame.
:|
Anyway
On the topic of Non-FW activities to "support your faction", there have been a tiny number of things, almost all of which have been CCP run live events, of varying quality and immersiveness - the Sansha's Nation live events, some of which had questionable timings - e.g. half an hour between "30 minutes before operation complete" and "20 minutes before operation complete" announcements by the Nation NPC actor. The other, far more recent thing, was the "research race", which involved expending a lot of assets, to determine CCPs release schedule of T3 destroyers.
That's not a lot of opportunities to "support your faction", over what? 7 years now ?
Also, I didn't know there were so many closet blooders in the militias. :|
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Wormhole entities opening portals into normal reality, launching piratical attacks, and vanishing back into their territory. It's actually very neat RP to interact with on either side. There's opportunities for pew pew, character work, etc.
I think you're statements are coming more from a place perhaps of unfamiliarity?
The only RP comments I've ever seen from wormhole players, have been "oh, I'm patrolling space, keeping out intruders, collapsing wormholes as they open", not about leaving their wormhole base to intrude into other people's spaces.
-
Wormhole entities opening portals into normal reality, launching piratical attacks, and vanishing back into their territory. It's actually very neat RP to interact with on either side. There's opportunities for pew pew, character work, etc.
I think you're statements are coming more from a place perhaps of unfamiliarity?
The only RP comments I've ever seen from wormhole players, have been "oh, I'm patrolling space, keeping out intruders, collapsing wormholes as they open", not about leaving their wormhole base to intrude into other people's spaces.
Right. No. You stop, RIGHT there. That is the very same attitude and bullshit tossed at me that caused a whole hell of a lot of problems in the past and should never, EVER be copped at people. When I said there is no irrelevant RP, I fucking meant it.
So what they don't go shoot shit? So what they don't leave their hole? It isn't a requirement that relevant RP involve combat all the fucking time.
Everyone asked what happened to that nice, non-aggressive Anslol all those years ago? Protip: Shit like the above that I got from a lot of people. I snapped. I got better at pvp, and I fought back and won. That doesn't mean others must follow suit and I will fucking burn the sky to defend people's right to RP in a non-combatant way.
RP does not require PvP. Period. Anyone got a problem with that statement? Feel free to drop by Rancer en masse and fucking discuss it.
/end_rant
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Wormhole entities opening portals into normal reality, launching piratical attacks, and vanishing back into their territory. It's actually very neat RP to interact with on either side. There's opportunities for pew pew, character work, etc.
I think you're statements are coming more from a place perhaps of unfamiliarity?
The only RP comments I've ever seen from wormhole players, have been "oh, I'm patrolling space, keeping out intruders, collapsing wormholes as they open", not about leaving their wormhole base to intrude into other people's spaces.
What's wrong with that? They are IC doing their IC homeland thing. Go throw rocks at them and invade their shit if you want? Or cooperate? Haul supplies to them? Spy on them? There's no difference between that and any other RP activity.
I'll even throw out its probably a damn sight more productive and OOC respect-worthy because it requires some real effort to make WH living work as opposed to being spoonfed everything in highsec.
I also RPd with non RPers every day. Especially hostile wormhole groups opening rifts into Kingdom lowsec.
You could do a whole loyalist corp based on a task force designed to close hostile wormholes into Empire. That could be a thing.
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Actually, I'd venture the claim that I am more secluded over long times in my RP, than wormhole-dwellers:
I RP mostly, nowadays, in private channels, with select indviduals, where no one can possibly invade and where the most of the interaction is largely - I dare to say it - irrelevant for the cluster. Yesternight was the first time in years (I think) that I undocked to shoot at something - and then I was fashionably late. I'm a carebear nowadays and I don't shoot people. Even my times as forum-warrior are largely past me. So what? I still RP, every now and then.
Irrelevant has - just as relevant - two points of reference: X is (ir)relevant to Y. So, while my private RP might be vastly irelephant to most of the RPers in EVE, it is quite relevant to me and the other parties involved in the RP (I hope (; ). So, I think Anslo is quite right: All RP is relevant (to someone), else it wouldn't happen.
P.S.: And we really should respect that it is relevant to those people, instead of fenigrating it as 'irrelevant', because we don't have the angle to see it's relevance.
-
This thread reminds me of some of the threads that used to appear on a different forum, years ago. Before FW.
When FW appeared, and numerous "non-rp" corporations joined, there was a lot of sound and fury on that forum.
The argument generally went:
1. That player JerkAss McJerk is a rude obnoxious player, who makes -ist comments in local whenever they are engaged by our corporation.
2. JerkAss McJerk is in Particular Militia.
3. Therefore it is incumbent on RPers of Particular Faction to police the entire militia.
4. Since Particular Faction RPers have not policed JerkAss McJerk out of Particular Militia, it is clear that Particular Faction RPers are Bad People, who condone -ist behaviour.
5. Shame on Particular Faction RPers. Shame. Shaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
:|
The accompanying argument was:
1. Particular Militia exists.
2. Particular faction RPers not engaged in FW, are obviously Bad Players who lack RP integrity, and thus can be completely ignored OOC and IC, as having irrelevant opinions.
3. Shame on Particular Faction RPers. Shaaaame.
:|
Anyway
On the topic of Non-FW activities to "support your faction", there have been a tiny number of things, almost all of which have been CCP run live events, of varying quality and immersiveness - the Sansha's Nation live events, some of which had questionable timings - e.g. half an hour between "30 minutes before operation complete" and "20 minutes before operation complete" announcements by the Nation NPC actor. The other, far more recent thing, was the "research race", which involved expending a lot of assets, to determine CCPs release schedule of T3 destroyers.
That's not a lot of opportunities to "support your faction", over what? 7 years now ?
Also, I didn't know there were so many closet blooders in the militias. :|
lol chatsubo
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[mod]This topic has had some robust discussion. I suggest that the level is upheld and that derailing is kept to a minimum. Add to the topic and stay away from shitposting.[/mod]
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What's wrong with that?
it's isolationist.
all the wormhole rp'ers i've ever heard of are isolationist.
most of the other rp'ers I've ever met are isolationist too.
Almost nobody wants to do things with other people. It's always about "look at this stuff we do!".
Nobody other than maybe Nauplius, and the people in PIE and other FW groups seems interested in doing stuff with or to other player groups.
Everyone seems burned out.
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We're not isolationist, we just prefer our content to be in wormholes. We have tons of interaction with other players. Maybe not well known RPers, but we definitely don't just hide in our hole all the time. We built our sandcastle and its awesome, we're not avoiding anyone. We're just doing the content we enjoy.
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Can I hide in your hole, Saede? *wiggly eyebrows* ;)
Regarding the topic at hand, maybe it is just me viewing Eve Online for what it is (it is a game), I try to avoid OOC drama at all costs. When it comes to dealing with certain topics ICly, there is a different approach for each situation.
For example, regarding the whole "PYRE housing Nation loyalists" thing, I can see the OOC reasons for doing so. IC, Kor already had a discussion with Pieter and Desi about it and quite frankly he has no strong qualms about it (but does feel slightly uneasy despite their best assurances). In the end, he doesn't give two cat butts about it because PYRE operates in the Amarr WZ and I-RED does not. Moreover, Kor is too busy focused on erasing filthy Guri from the face of the cluster to care all too much about Sansha.
I suppose an alternative way to view this would be similar to what Pieter mentioned earlier about I-RED being filthy fabulous liberals. Kor sees PYRE as filthy patriots tarnishing the honor and reputation of themselves, KK, and the State by working alongside universal criminals. And that it totally fine because while PYRE gets flak for openly working with universal criminals, no one sees Kor working with... *ahem* ...interesting parties behind the scenes.
>_>
<_<
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What's wrong with that?
it's isolationist.
all the wormhole rp'ers i've ever heard of are isolationist.
most of the other rp'ers I've ever met are isolationist too.
Almost nobody wants to do things with other people. It's always about "look at this stuff we do!".
Nobody other than maybe Nauplius, and the people in PIE and other FW groups seems interested in doing stuff with or to other player groups.
Everyone seems burned out.
If they are isolationists then it's because other groups allow them to be and support it. There's no game rule, or game mechanic, stopping you from tracking down their house and burning it to the ground. Or paying someone else to do it. Or launching a PR campaign to have it done. Or tracking it down and moving in to share with them.
You're also making some big assumptions there about a whole lot of other people outside of FW you don't know as well. :roll:
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You're also making some big assumptions there about a whole lot of other people outside of FW you don't know as well. :roll:
:roll: :| :s :ugh: :arrow: :?: :!: :bash: :psyccp: :cube:
Can only go on what appears in public on the Summit and the IGS. And what appears there, is a bunch of people who give the impression of not wanting to do things with or to other people.
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You're also making some big assumptions there about a whole lot of other people outside of FW you don't know as well. :roll:
:roll: :| :s :ugh: :arrow: :?: :!: :bash: :psyccp: :cube:
Can only go on what appears in public on the Summit and the IGS. And what appears there, is a bunch of people who give the impression of not wanting to do things with or to other people.
Ahem.
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You're also making some big assumptions there about a whole lot of other people outside of FW you don't know as well. :roll:
:roll: :| :s :ugh: :arrow: :?: :!: :bash: :psyccp: :cube:
Can only go on what appears in public on the Summit and the IGS. And what appears there, is a bunch of people who give the impression of not wanting to do things with or to other people.
I understand your sentiment, but that's like watching American talking head cable news and assuming that's what is going on in the wider world.
The Summit and the IGS have not been representative of things going on for a long time :/
I check in on things every few months and I see the same people shitting up the place, honestly.
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I can see both sides of this argument.
I don't think womrholers are absolutely isolationist in all respects; I've met wormholers who regularly chatted with outside members and even developed story arcs for other characters that did't focus on WHs. Even last night, I dragged a bunch of wormholers - most of whom were not RPers to begin wtih - out of our hole for the POS fight in Oyonata and I don't intend to make Esna's RP isolated whatsoever - he will still regularly appear in Kspace and be involved in story arcs there.
On the other hand, WH gameplay by its very nature does demand some degree of isolation; because system control is often the deciding factor in when fights happen and how they end, closing your system to as much unintended traffic as possible is a very necessary part of active wormhole life. For an RPer who wants to build something of their own especially, WH space holds value as one of the few places in which you can be relatively sure your operation isn't going to be curbstomped by a fleet of bored supercapitals.
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In addition, the alien nature of worm hole systems themselves open up a vast amount of RP possibilities that need not be constrained by the strict interpretations of PF. No I'm not talking about finding Jamyl's illegitimate husband in a Sleeper pod or something. No, I'm talking about the 'little things.'
World building can occur in small sizes. Not all needs to be larger than life. A disease here, a city there, a village here, a planet unique tech or trend there. It all adds to the universe. If it isn't god moddy or trying to influence vast swaths of space, who give two tugs of a dead dog's cock? It's adding to the world and RP in general. And Gods' know we need it.
If people wanna be butte's and dismiss wormhole content or other world building content that is, for me anyway, like finding a neat little trinket in a thrift shop that stands out from the rest of the same old same old, then I feel sad for them. Limiting themselves like that.
To the rest of you buildin dat content? Shine on you crazy diamonds (note this does not mean I won't roflstomp you if given the chance).
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In addition, the alien nature of worm hole systems themselves open up a vast amount of RP possibilities that need not be constrained by the strict interpretations of PF. No I'm not talking about finding Jamyl's illegitimate husband in a Sleeper pod or something. No, I'm talking about the 'little things.'
World building can occur in small sizes. Not all needs to be larger than life. A disease here, a city there, a village here, a planet unique tech or trend there. It all adds to the universe. If it isn't god moddy or trying to influence vast swaths of space, who give two tugs of a dead dog's cock? It's adding to the world and RP in general. And Gods' know we need it.
If people wanna be butte's and dismiss wormhole content or other world building content that is, for me anyway, like finding a neat little trinket in a thrift shop that stands out from the rest of the same old same old, then I feel sad for them. Limiting themselves like that.
To the rest of you buildin dat content? Shine on you crazy diamonds (note this does not mean I won't roflstomp you if given the chance).
Yes. I still fart in the general direction of Saede and your multiple clonin' you heard me girl, faaaart in your general direction. :P
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But while Silas does (you stank FC), you're still doing stuff instead of blowing hot air. Is it pvp? No. But so what? It adds to the world. And honestly any of you people who actually discourage that kind of content addition (and don't you fucking say no one does that, I know better than anyone here that's a load of shit) really need to take a good look at RP. Look at this thread. Look in-game.
We need new stuff. Why the fuck are you discouraging anything?
Christ.
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Just as a reference, We do in fact pvp quite regularly (http://alexylva.mindflood.org/)
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Must...resist...posting...girth....
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Not trying to put words in your mouth...thats how I interpreted it. I agree with you on the point about BS reasons being bad RP, but I don't see Tibs and company coming up with BS reasons.
The intent behind my initial response was simply this:
In a case where there is a conflict between maintaining character integrity versus fulfilling OOC desires, then maintaining character integrity comes first in my opinion.
That's why i'm in the impossible situation I am currently. It must be a lot worse for Ava.
I agree with your statement and have always done so, but its seriously sucks. If I could magically transfer all of my 130M SP on another fresh character more fitting to the current needs of RP and also being able to go where I want it, I would... :(
*The state of RP is dead. I blame that one corp of RPers who are having a great time playing the game, being friendly to each other, RPing internally within their corp, and interacting with the rest of the RP community.*
Seriously a lot of this thread reads like "It's not fair that people are having fun without me." There are very frequently complaints on this very forum that RP corporations don't do anything in space. That RP groups only interact with their own insular groups. That RP doesn't have consequences. PYRE is doing all of those things.
We're active in space everyday. We interact with RPers in every faction, whether they want it or not. I can't speak for every member, but I certainly know I spend a lot of my RP time dealing with the consequences of being a PYRE member. It's a lot of fun. I get to be involved in the story. I get to be part of the RP collective conversation instead of being a fly on the wall in a dozen dead RP channels wondering why I even paid that $15.
Haters are gonna hate, but at least we're giving the rest of you something to talk about.
PYRE yes.
Do you see many entities that are having fun besides yours and a handful of others ? I take issue with people that continue to say "lalala all is fine because after all, it's perfectly fine in my corp". There, I said it. Gaven keeps saying it, PYRE now says it, AVLEX says it. Guess what ? They are the entities for whom it works. But when you are part of another RP faction or loyalty, then it's a whole story, and the problem these days is that it's not even a minority, it has become the majority. And I personally refuse to sacrifice any RP logic and coherence of my character to have fun. I have fun by maintaining it, actually.
Unfair to say it like that ? Yes. Both sides are. Both are unwilling to listen to the issues of the other. :|
Also, I didn't know there were so many closet blooders in the militias. :|
I should like totally create a blooder alt that I would call Closet Blooder. :D
Actually, I'd venture the claim that I am more secluded over long times in my RP, than wormhole-dwellers:
I RP mostly, nowadays, in private channels, with select indviduals, where no one can possibly invade and where the most of the interaction is largely - I dare to say it - irrelevant for the cluster. Yesternight was the first time in years (I think) that I undocked to shoot at something - and then I was fashionably late. I'm a carebear nowadays and I don't shoot people. Even my times as forum-warrior are largely past me. So what? I still RP, every now and then.
Irrelevant has - just as relevant - two points of reference: X is (ir)relevant to Y. So, while my private RP might be vastly irelephant to most of the RPers in EVE, it is quite relevant to me and the other parties involved in the RP (I hope (; ). So, I think Anslo is quite right: All RP is relevant (to someone), else it wouldn't happen.
P.S.: And we really should respect that it is relevant to those people, instead of fenigrating it as 'irrelevant', because we don't have the angle to see it's relevance.
Heh yes, I am in the same geriatric situation. I undocked for Kor event and that was great.
I haven't done that for eons...
two Kat butts
ftfy
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I think if samira joined minnie fw that would solve a lot of issues.
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@lyn make Closet Blooder and I'll give you whatever you want.
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Must...resist...posting...girth....
Why are you boasting about being fat?
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Must...resist...posting...girth....
Why are you boasting about being fat?
More cushion for the pushin.
Also check your messages you greasy nerd.
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I think if samira joined minnie fw that would solve a lot of issues.
... wat?
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I think if samira joined minnie fw that would solve a lot of issues.
... wat?
You should undock and play with us too!
Breaking: Samira Kernher fed up with Closet Blooders, Joins out of closet blooders. FW ends. Silas returns!
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Oi vey FC.
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This blew up rather quickly. I will say while PYRE is the focal point of issues we really shouldn't have issues with it OOCly, rather groups that disagree with it should deal with it ICly. I-RED has already taken the steps to do so, marking them as a pirate organization (As they have Angel/Guri/Serp/Sansha) in their ranks, and actively debuffing their attempts at claiming loyalty to the State. ICly our course of actions make sense.
Would we work with them, no it is very unlikely. We shoot at eachother because of their affiliations as proven last night over the tower. People should stop placing the blame and just deal with it.. by that I mean if your character/org has issues, impose restrictions, cut ties etc etc. There is lots of RP even if it is just posturing & words.
Although I can see a lot of the arguments can be seen as legitimate, a lot of the conflict seems to come from the old guard vs new blood within the RP community. Older RPers are holding onto their foundations of what RP used to be.. and I do miss those days.
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No offense, but I'm just seeing tables turned here oh mighty Emperor JFR III. The ~old guard~ would rail on new RPers or RPers who stepped "out of line," to the point of forcing them out of the community in round about ways.
I see this as reaping what was sown. The new blood is fighting back, big time. And, imo, it's a good thing, especially with "old RP" being as I mentioned above (though I am biased as I experienced the bad side of it. I'm sure there was a bright, baller side of old RP).
From the ashes of the old shall spring forth a beautiful new future.
PRAISE VANU \o/
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I generally don't rail on people's RP. At most I ignore it if its so cray cray that my poor feeble ol' mind cant comprehend the blabbering fools on IGS.
There used to be a saying the community had: "There is no doing it wrong" which is what I hold by, but everyone must understand IC actions and even OOC actions have IC consequences.
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Well I hope I never drove new RPers out of the community... :|
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@JFR: NONE WOULD DARE BLAME YOU, ESPECIALLY THIS HUMBLE FAN BOI, OF FORCING NEW BLOOD FROM THE COMMUNITY, OH NOBLE AND BENEVOLENT EMPEROR JOHN BALLS'O'STEEL MOTHERFUCKING RELEVANT
@Lyn: I dunno, you just got back lol. My experience with you is that you call BS as you see BS (in a far more polite way than I do).
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:eek:
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.....HAIL REVENANT?
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@Lyn: I dunno, you just got back lol. My experience with you is that you call BS as you see BS (in a far more polite way than I do).
I'm old guard though. My intentions are pure evil. :twisted:
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@Lyn: I dunno, you just got back lol. My experience with you is that you call BS as you see BS (in a far more polite way than I do).
I'm old guard though. My intentions are pure evil. :twisted:
:P Like I said in the other post, I'll say it again; I'm sure a lot of old RP was absolutely and utterly amazing (i.e. the Gallente Polytheism project, Napaani, etc). All cool stuff. It's just certain elements that are, in my opinion, seeing the 'rewards' of their labor. That doesn't include everyone.
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Anslo, you're old guard. And I'm new blood.
I think this is backwards.
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Anslo, you're old guard. And I'm new blood.
I think this is backwards.
Old guard in playing Eve. Not RPing, not by a long shot.
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Anslo, you were doing your bandages thing all the way back in the DoN days, mate. You're old guard.
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I was?
I did?
............
......................
..................................well shit....still stand by my statement.
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Well, if by RPing in general then yeah, I'm pretty old guard. <.<
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The problem with Anslo's analysis is that as the oldest of the guard here I am taking the new guard side. :P
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The problem with Anslo's analysis is that as the oldest of the guard here I am taking the new guard side. :P
Same here tbh dude. I just am really bad with phrasing my thoughts more often than not.
Big shout outs to people like CC, Alabooty, Vizage, Halcyon, Jennifer, Ria, Lycaon-kun, and others for doing their thing and doing it damn well as new bros. Big shout outs too to Luna, Nico, even Esna, JFR, and other old guard for propping them up.
VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!
YOU HAVE MY SWORD FRIENDS.
USA
USA
USA
USA
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a thing I've seen as well, is people kicking their own sandcastles, for reasons that I do not understand.
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a thing I've seen as well, is people kicking their own sandcastles, for reasons that I do not understand.
That is some meta gaming right there.
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Well this thread escalated quickly. It makes me savour my current state of obscurity.
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I have just a couple of things to say.
On the subject of IC opinions. There is nothing wrong with the perception of Pyre as bastards from groups like IRED or PIE. They are faction loyalists who would obviously judge us by our associations. In fact there is really nothing wrong with anyones IC perceptions of us as that is up to each person or corp based on their personal RP. As has been said we are a PMC, formed by Caldari and working under contract with the 24th IC. We employ capsuleers regardless of their RP history or previous loyalties. If your characters hate us or love us, whatever it's all good and all workable as RP.
As for the idea that our very existence destroys or "infects" loyalist FW RP I would have to disagree. For one thing the militias have always had these elements within them. Taking into account "non-roleplayers" one might say that for much of their history ingame the overwhelming majority of any given militia has been people of questionable moral character. This leads one to a sort of quandary. If it seems strange that the Empires allow such pilots to fly under their banner should we not search for an explanation instead of throwing hands up in the air and saying "it's all stupid!"? From my perspective the faction wars are not a big thing, they are brushfire wars on the outskirts between mercenaries, deniable resources and small cores of actual military from the Empires. The outlier is not the PMC like Pyre but the independent capsuleers truly loyal to their faction like PIE, IRED or UK. In my opinion this works quite well with observations of what actually is happening in-game. And when it comes to our very existence somehow polluting that faction I would add that even if you do not agree with my view of the FW, if you add up the players in Pyre, Nauplius' corp and Cult of the Lash I think you are at like all of 60 people maybe. Perhaps that is some significant number of RP'ers when measured against other roleplayers either in our own militia or others but I feel that says more about unrelated problems others are facing than ones we have supposedly created. Especially when you add in the fact that basically no one we have recruited was welcome IC in any of those other organizations anyway.
TLDR: We are not "stealing" "your" potential roleplayers. We are not "infecting" your roleplay. If there is a dearth of people interested in whatever you are doing you should probably come up with something fun to do and then go and recruit some people or something. Good luck and fly dirty.
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Mostly agree but minor point of difference,
The IP has varied wildly, wildly, as far as the scope, scale, and importance of the FW.
Sometimes it's the most serious business EVAR with untold misery and suffering and explosions and pew pew, and sometimes it is as you describe a brushfire of proxy fighting out in the jungle so to speak.
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Mostly agree but minor point of difference,
The IP has varied wildly, wildly, as far as the scope, scale, and importance of the FW.
Sometimes it's the most serious business EVAR with untold misery and suffering and explosions and pew pew, and sometimes it is as you describe a brushfire of proxy fighting out in the jungle so to speak.
The collapse of the then FDU led to the ousting of Foiritain as president of the Federation.
The collapse of the then STPRO led to the downfall of Tibus Heth.
meanwhile, the Elders told Shakor that his only job is to be a speedbump, so the recent collapse of the TLF means nothing.
Like you said, varying importance. vOv
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I just await the day the playerbase is made aware that all of us capsuleers are merely sleeping sleepers stuck in one of their VR stasis chamber stations. They'll reveal that before the servers shut down
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I just await the day the playerbase is made aware that all of us capsuleers are merely sleeping sleepers stuck in one of their VR stasis chamber stations. They'll reveal that before the servers shut down
I'd like it more if Earth invaded and killed everything.
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I just await the day the playerbase is made aware that all of us capsuleers are merely sleeping sleepers stuck in one of their VR stasis chamber stations. They'll reveal that before the servers shut down
I'd like it more if Earth invaded and killed everything.
As it turns out the EVE Gate collapsed just before Earth entered a massive technological renaissance. Their tech is about a hundred times greater than sleepers. Their advanced scout ships create their own wormholes at will and lay waste to entire fleets of defenders. Out numbered, out gunned, it's up to the EVE cluster to decide whether to stand or fall together.
Or it was all a sleeper VR dream.
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That is fair Silas and I do not absolve CCP in entirety of putting intelligent work into the lore. However..
A: I can't do anything about that, I just have to work with what I have or throw hands up and walk away. I choose to work with what I have.
B: It's a war(well several wars) that have lasted for years across large reaches of space and with varying intensities. If anything the fact that sometimes it's of import and sometimes it goes unnoticed works when crafting a storyline to work off of.
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I don't think anyone is saying anything along the lines that PYRE is stealing RPers >.>
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Many of the posts above, especially Miz's imply that by dint of existence our take on RP somehow "forces out" or "destroys" the RP of loyalist corporations. In my mind this can only be true if the combined 60 or so people spread across three corps is some overwhelming percentage of roleplayers involved in the militias. If that is true than the fault lies in the lack of loyalist numbers and I find it hard to believe that the blame for that can somehow be laid at our feet. If PIE and UK both had a hundred active RPers or there were dozens of active RP corporations than we would be some small percentage of visibility on the IGS, Summit and other public venues. If anything at that point we would be the ones being squeezed out by the weight of loyalist pressure as unlike us their RP would effectively demand they try and kick us out. Which I would like to point out I would not complain about because hey, storyline man.
Obviously none of the above takes into account Samira's points about the general non-RP militia but again there is nothing I can do about that so I choose to interpret such things as they come and explain the game world in a way that makes some sense to me.
The point I am trying to make in regards to your post John, is that the problem(if there is one) is there is not enough loyalists. This is not our fault as the people we recruit are pretty much not loyalists.
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I have always seen a general lack in loyalists, or at least ones who stick with it. So its nothing new.
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I was going to post something relevant but I am not reading thirteen fuckin' pages of this thread. Y'all on your own.
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I have always seen a general lack in loyalists, or at least ones who stick with it. So its nothing new.
Probably because loyalist RP is very restrictive. You limit yourself to 1/4 or 1/2 of all the high and low-sec regions, constantly spout the same slogans like a broken record and maybe even restrict your ship choices. Throw in the fact that you will need to either stop training this loyalist character to train that other character to do whatever or buy another account for the sake of consistently loyal behaviour in the RP character and you get something that is, let's be honest, pretty not fun. And it's not like you can just get to become good at whatever you want to do within just one year either, unless what you want to do is frigate solo combat every day all day, making the transition a bit problematic.
It's basically why I did not make my character a loyalist but instead a privateer. That way if I ever get sick of doing that privateering thing I could just hang in or simply shred that letter of marquee and go take on some other adventure.
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I was going to post something relevant but I am not reading thirteen fuckin' pages of this thread. Y'all on your own.
It's actually a pretty good read.
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[mod]Small amount of modding. We are keeping a fairly light touch with this thread and appreciate your cooperation in keeping it that way. [/mod]
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I don't think there's an "old" or "new" conflict, just the age old one across all MMOs of people who like to roleplay casually as a side dish to playing the game and who don't really let it govern their actions, and people who prefer hardcore, serious stuff that defines everything they do while playing.
Ideally, the two are big enough to sustain eachother independently without there being any conflict. When they aren't, though, they eat eachother.
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(Mod hat off)
I didn't RP much in the latter half of the year, so I'm not all up to date on everything. I've seen some of Pyre vacuuming up members, and I suspect it is because people want to have fun and they are finding it there. That's a perfectly valid reason to join a corp. For some people certain IC things are a priority when looking at a corp, for others considerations that are not entirely IC might take precedence - I think whichever approach works for you is valid. The main thing is you are having fun when you log in.
I think that if WH corps decide they want to pursue an isolationist policy, that's actually kind of an interesting RP route to go down. It isn't everyone's responsibility to make themselves available for everyone else's RP. It has the benefit of being something it actually makes sense (potentially) for a corp in that position to do.
I have seen a lot of discussion about older RPers forcing new people out or discouraging them. I'm kind of curious about it. I am fairly sure that I haven't intentionally discouraged anyone (in fact, I try to encourage people when I can), though certainly there have been people throughout the years I declined to interact with because I didn't find interacting with them fun or interesting - and my position tends to be that while no one is required to RP with me, I expect that same courtesy in return (barring the more kinetic sorts of Eve RP, anyway. I haven't ever had someone I didn't want to RP with RP at me with guns, though. It's always been people I'm fine interacting with so far - which is always nice for the press releases afterward.)
Of course, I'm not plugged into every aspect of the community, but I suspect that the most common sort of exclusion is unintentional. Many players who have been around a long time know each other, and are comfortable with each other, and it can be intimidating or even difficult to break into an established social group as a newcomer. For that type of exclusion I don't know that there is an easy solution, other than encouraging established players to reach out to newcomers. I don't know that hostility toward those more established players is a useful tactic - but that's why I'm a bit curious. It seems like you are talking about something more intentional than just a lack of reaching out to newbies from entrenched social groups.
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10/10 - thread has delivered thus far.
As someone who has taken a few months off, is bittervet, liquidating null assets, and considering a shift back to his old stomping grounds I have come to a few conclusions for my direction of RP.
1) There is a clear need for "squeaky-clean" Caldari Patriot organization ;)
2) I know how and have the desire to create revenue streams. :idea:
3) I have the RP history to leverage Pyre :twisted: (it would involve shooting people)
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Ok, I am impressed with this discussion. I think the community will benefit from just being able to speak our minds, and even a bit of our passionate hearts. I think we can pat ourselves on the shoulder here.
I find that when you go through a hard time for the same reasons your character is going through a hard time, it can be a very rewarding experience, more so than when your feeling all good about the IC situation OOCly. This applies to not being able to fly with anyone (you like) because of character consistency, and to having to work alongside characters your char despises, because it (almost?) literrally puts you in your character's shoes, it's like you are facing the challenges alongside your char. It doesn't get much more immersive than that. But I can understand that for some, that level of immersion is not to their taste.
I'll have to echo that stuff goes on that is not put on display a lot in the IGS and other places.
Characters complaining about Ston's Matriculation thread has not encouraged Ché to raise the C3SRC flag to that level. Far from it. I think others may have similar reasons for not raising their flags. Even if they would have good reasons for raising their flags because their group is small or even just one player playing with himself. :|
I'll end with writing that this thread sometimes made me smile, because some of you are complaining about being in situations I actually voluntarily put my char into because "Conflict! Yay! A chance for char development and non-stagnancy!"
I'm not saying I don't empathize with y'all, but I hope you understand this is a bit funny from my perspective.
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I have always seen a general lack in loyalists, or at least ones who stick with it. So its nothing new.
Probably because loyalist RP is very restrictive. You limit yourself to 1/4 or 1/2 of all the high and low-sec regions, constantly spout the same slogans like a broken record and maybe even restrict your ship choices. Throw in the fact that you will need to either stop training this loyalist character to train that other character to do whatever or buy another account for the sake of consistently loyal behaviour in the RP character and you get something that is, let's be honest, pretty not fun. And it's not like you can just get to become good at whatever you want to do within just one year either, unless what you want to do is frigate solo combat every day all day, making the transition a bit problematic.
It's basically why I did not make my character a loyalist but instead a privateer. That way if I ever get sick of doing that privateering thing I could just hang in or simply shred that letter of marquee and go take on some other adventure.
While everyone is welcome to their opinions I think this is a little off on how loyalist RP works. At least in I-RED's history.
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For me it was all very simple. I'm not an old-guard player, I've (only) been around for a couple of years and when I joined there was really only one corporation that did what I decided I wanted to do.
2 years down the line, Pyre had to make a decision as to whether it stayed a five man Caldari Loyalist Fac War corp that basically lived or died on the amount of free time our main FC had - or did it change.
It changed and in every month since it has done so, it has basically smashed its records for activity and the content provided for its members.
My choice was, do I leave my friends, do I abandon my Corporation and rewrite THAT part of my character or do I stay in Pyre and accept that Pieter is not going to be the Caldari Loyalist that I wanted him to be?
It's tough. Roleplaying is starting to become something that I do TO people, not with them. I don't enjoy the direction my character has gone in, but my attempts to distance myself from the people who are my friends and the content that makes me enjoy logging into Eve have been disastrous. Every attempt to quit has led to me taking a timeout from the game.
Perhaps if this squeaky-clean Caldari Loyalist FW corp starts up and if it can match it's ideals with a good standard of violencing spaceboats, I'll finally be able to look elsewhere for my fix but, as things stand, it's "My Company - Right or Wrong". And that's a LITTLE bit Caldari, right?
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This is purely my own experience and opinion. I basically quit RP in June of '12. This is when I went on a 18-24 month break from Eve. When I came back, both Eve and RP had changed. I couldn't really find the required effort to get back into the much more critical and toxic scene, so I didn't. I changed Kala's character and had her join up with the Angels and PYRE, and I can honestly say this is the most fun I've ever had in the game. These days I'm a member of the RP scene by association rather than any actual input. I'm honestly not seeing anything that makes me want to change this.
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My choice was, do I leave my friends, do I abandon my Corporation and rewrite THAT part of my character or do I stay in Pyre and accept that Pieter is not going to be the Caldari Loyalist that I wanted him to be?
...
Perhaps if this squeaky-clean Caldari Loyalist FW corp starts up and if it can match it's ideals with a good standard of violencing spaceboats, I'll finally be able to look elsewhere for my fix but, as things stand, it's "My Company - Right or Wrong". And that's a LITTLE bit Caldari, right?
No, because of the last bit. They are your company at this point.
If you are referencing what I said about squeaky-clean, I wasn't thinking FW.
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I dunno why people refer to hardcore RP as "toxic". It's just a matter of taste. It's not for everyone (and coming to that realization can be awkward and unpleasant) but it's neither better nor worse then laid back stuff.
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No, because of the last bit. They are your company at this point.
If you are referencing what I said about squeaky-clean, I wasn't thinking FW.
Ah well. I haven't seen anything in null that really interests me at this point AND, once again, there really isn't any other Corp doing what I wanna do.
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I dunno why people refer to hardcore RP as "toxic". It's just a matter of taste. It's not for everyone (and coming to that realization can be awkward and unpleasant) but it's neither better nor worse then laid back stuff.
It is only toxic when it gets to 'Stop having fun guys!' and ideal-pushing.
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I dunno why people refer to hardcore RP as "toxic". It's just a matter of taste. It's not for everyone (and coming to that realization can be awkward and unpleasant) but it's neither better nor worse then laid back stuff.
I'm not referring to hardcore RP as toxic. I was in GRD for 10 months, and I didn't even know the summit existed for the first 6. I have absolutely nothing against hardcore RP. From what I've seen in the last 4 months, since I came back the RP community in general is considerably angrier with itself than it used to be. All of it, casual or not.
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Orginal Post Moderated
Eh I made my views on a certain sub-sec of PYRE clear. As I said multiple times last night its not because of them being sansha but their ooc actions, and my ooc reactions.
Do I dislike Pyre as a whole? No, hell I still like Zanzi he hasn't tried to get me to second guess friends and we generally have a good talk when we are on together. Do I dislike Pieter? Hell no. Do I dislike Des? Only when I'm flying a catalyst and she primaries me.... Do I dislike Kala? No she dishes it out as good as she takes it. (The rest of the Pyre people I haven't met)
As for the sub-sec: Do I dislike some of the things TS-F did:
First the part about the moderation of OOC and other channels; especially ts-f public. While yes it is their channel and they have every right to pick and choose who can be there, as a person who thought we had some good RP with liuni or at least us talking about lore. It was fun while it lasted, only to also be on an alt and have someone (Also in the killmail further below) say they did it on a whim still can urk someone; and again the rest of their leadership standing by the decision....I believe most here would find that an annoyance and harmful to RP especially when none of the rules were broken IC or oocly. But in the context of the following two points, probably a minor one.
What recently happened to make me just write them off while in Pyre was the fact that a friend ValentinaDM decided to join them because they wanted to do more factionwar and stay in frigates instead of TISHU's bigger doctrines. The Scopeworks was sad to see her go but we wish her well and still do, and even request updates with cheer leading parties. However the day it happened someone I thought of as a friend, who kept me playing eve when the times were tough yet then joined ts-f decided to try and form a wedge between ValentinaDM and myself by saying things like she was a spy the entire time; "how does it feel to be tricked" and generally being a horrid anti-diplomat and antagonist on the verge of being comical if it wasn't an honest try. (You know who you are) Again, that srs rp 'why do people hate us?'
The main problem with what happened that made myself and scopeworks mad before there even was a scope works was https://zkillboard.com/kill/35788890/ Where Deadrow lured Avio (New to pc gaming in the first place) into their system with the -OOC- promise of learning how to rat and PVE. Instead, as you see they blapped him. Now, many might be saying he should have known better he couldn't; it was even and the guy was a mid-teen at the time new to the game with the promise of maybe making a new friend or two with the help of Deadrow telling him now to fit things. What compounded this was that the TS-F corporation instead of saying "Sorry, there is one jerk in every circle" instead laughed at him for a couple months (Along with OOC channel trolling) and even to this day (This week) basically hold the standard of "he should have known better" where even most alliances now teach new people and don't pull such mean tactics.
If there is ever a way to make sure no new people come to eve and no new RPers come out to play; -that- is the way to do it.
As I said before the rewrite of this post. I don't hate Pyre's RP, I don't hate what they do in FW, or how they fly. However, the subsect of people that they recruited do have my eye and not for their IC as they claim but because of these issues and multiple small ones which might seem petty to some until they are compounded with the three main ones I have listed.
In conclusion the thought that Pyre is ruining RP is a very limiting thought when CCP has opened up the game mechanic to anyone and everyone without the ability to even shoot the circling outposts. However, with the previous talk about the 'old guard' and the 'new guard' duking it out; nothing brings it to the head as a new RPer coming to EVE from DUST514 and console gaming only to be blapped by TS-F in the height of their moderating days. Unfortunately that is what seemed to culminate my 2014 with RP, repairing the damage done to new players and the 'we aren't all like that' which has to happen way too often when I mention eve on steam or on other games. I am hoping for a better 2015 and I think it will happen with posts from Kala and updates from Valentina saying Pyre is welcoming to new people (Pyre is expanding like no tomorrow) and other corps having a newer person devision instead of 'lol freshmeat time to troll'
TL:DR
People hurt a newbie to game and rp, for months
Newbie get upset which upsets other newbies
upset newbies leave game
less content for all
Eve becomes alts playing with alts
Let's not repeat this
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I have always seen a general lack in loyalists, or at least ones who stick with it. So its nothing new.
Probably because loyalist RP is very restrictive. You limit yourself to 1/4 or 1/2 of all the high and low-sec regions, constantly spout the same slogans like a broken record and maybe even restrict your ship choices. Throw in the fact that you will need to either stop training this loyalist character to train that other character to do whatever or buy another account for the sake of consistently loyal behaviour in the RP character and you get something that is, let's be honest, pretty not fun. And it's not like you can just get to become good at whatever you want to do within just one year either, unless what you want to do is frigate solo combat every day all day, making the transition a bit problematic.
It's basically why I did not make my character a loyalist but instead a privateer. That way if I ever get sick of doing that privateering thing I could just hang in or simply shred that letter of marquee and go take on some other adventure.
As far as I know, PIE is the only loyalist corp that has this restrictive a policy. It is *far* from normal for an empire loyalist corp to be as restrictive as PIE is.
We do it for some very good reasons, but it comes at the cost of driving off a large subset of potential members.
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I don't see any restrictions besides common sense stuff that "Yeah, we're not going to be flying for Amarr fleets" if you're a MinLoyalist. What ships you fly is up to you, what you do in Eve is up to you. It just gives you a reason to do shit and a handy set of enemies when need be. It provides a framework to build things on, rather than a flat sandbox with nothing to support anything you might want to build.
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Holy fucking threadnaught.
1) To Pyre. You guys rock, keep doing what you're doing. Wish I was there, etc. I admit to some jealousy and frustration with you all at times, because 1) I am envious of the cohesive, skilled group youve made and 2) I cant really join you OR fight you, so I just kind of get to sit back and watch, but you're all having fun, and that is great.
2) To the people who want to be pirates and loyalists - no. It doesnt work that way. You can be a pirate with loyalist sympathies, but you cannot claim to be upholding an empire when, well, you dont uphold it. Sorry. Keep having fun regardless. You rock. But youre not RPing loyalists. That doesnt mean you shouldnt do it! Just expect some teeth gnashing, most of which I understand.
3) To the community in general: Sometimes, the IC/OOC divide has to be broken. Sometimes, it hurts. I spent six months as New Eden's Most Hated for the whole Coleile mess, which was, you know, CCP's story, not mine. Sorry that I wanted to take part in the ONE live event that both involved minmatar AND was actually at a time i could attend, but I did, and well... it fucking sucked. Sometimes, things happen for OOC reasons; that doesnt give anyone the right to single anyone out for extra RP shunning.
4) To CCP: FW fucking sucks. Period. You have managed to destroy everything about eve i loved, starting with the losec static plexes and ending with FW. Maybe someday you'll unfuck it, but frankly, I don't think I want to wait around, wringing my hands and hoping.
You know what the no 1 source of RP for me is anymore? People RPing NOT RPing with me. In bars, amarr and caldari emote ignoring me. People make a point of telling me i am not invited to RP events. Guess what? THIS ISNT FUN. This brings us back to the whole "oh, just make your own content". Really? I'll just RP with myself, then.
Am I bitter? FUCK YES. Why wouldnt I be?
A lot of people in this thread need to step back and breathe. Me included.
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Doublepoast
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1) To Pyre. You guys rock, keep doing what you're doing. Wish I was there, etc. I admit to some jealousy and frustration with you all at times, because 1) I am envious of the cohesive, skilled group youve made and 2) I cant really join you OR fight you, so I just kind of get to sit back and watch, but you're all having fun, and that is great.
One of us, one of us.
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For that type of exclusion I don't know that there is an easy solution, other than encouraging established players to reach out to newcomers.
I'd love to participate in interactions with newcomers to either Eve or RP but I'm also aware of my own negative reputation among some (or many) due to past jimmy rustling (Grr), past association with PYRE (Grr), and current association with GSF (Grr), that given my own past experiences will eventually lead to a scenario in which they will be judged, negatively, for such an association by others due to incidents they weren't even involved with.
However, I feel that dynamic of judging others only on the basis of their associations with others and expecting - even demanding - that their associations match their own with an, "It's me or them," attitude will naturally lead to social balkanization within roleplay circles. In what can be an adversarial and conflict oriented game like EVE there will always be grievances caused, but all too often they just seem to become intractable issues when the past is always brought up to beat others with and the sides involved feel they are justified in their blame of the others.
For myself, I'd say such a conflict dynamic makes sense from an in-character and roleplay perspective but when the dynamic feels like its also part of the out of character and player dynamics among and between roleplayers that the environment becomes negative and not enjoyable. When that becomes the case, then of course people would want to withdraw, not participate, make their interactions private, and put the social walls up.
Whilst I recognize and admit I was very much an asshole in the past, all too often for me these days it feels like even if I'd want to move on in a more positive manner, further in-character interactions with new players and even old players in future just means a lot of potential dramas for the reasons I've already outlined above.
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Also,
(http://i.imgur.com/ExbO7Nh.gif)
/thread
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3) I have the RP history to leverage Pyre :twisted: (it would involve shooting people)
That sounds soooo interesting.
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I tend to be in agreement with much of what has been said.
Silas is dead right about Factional Warfare. I would call it the WOW Theme park in the EVE sandbox. Low sec is the worst of high sec and null sec, with none of the benefits. Factional Warfare is like a half hearted or half realized attempt to plop the structure of WOW into the sandbox of EVE.
Yet I have to ask, is EVE really a sandbox? The developers tell us 'you can do what you want', as long as it involves either 1) killing stuff or 2) Making money. Anything too creative involves either a heavy dose of solipsism or wishing the game mechanics would change.
I agree with Samira about Blood Raiders in the Amarr militia, it's a logical contradiction. Pirates turning privateer is perfectly understandable. However, religious zealots and devotees teaming up with their most despised and feared heretics to fight against an apparently fractured and scattered enemy who by comparison are merely rebels and heathens? This makes no sense.
I too have argued that the Pirate factions should be able to declare war on each other and fight for FW territory as well. The Pirate factions are in fact, miniature nations. As someone else said, they are like a mirror image of the nation itself. Guristas are like Caldari who became ultra-capitalists, expanding into the lucrative black market as well. Blood Raiders are religious Amarrians that have devolved into some kind of crazy cult. They became a Pirate nation because they rejected (and were rejected by) their host nations.
The FW game mechanic allows the various factions to declare a free, permanent war dec on the opposing faction. Why can't this be expanded to include the pirate factions as well? Why not have a Militia recruitment button AND a Pirate recruitment button, with the Pirate recruitment automatically signing you into one of the four Pirate factions? Why not have the Blood Raiders in an automatic perma-war dec with the Amarr Empire, or all empires? Wouldn't the game coding to do this be exactly the same?
Pirate stations in the low sec factional war zones as well.
I also think it should be possible to have inter-factional civil wars. There should be a game mechanic for this. The Amarr Empire is in a kind of cold war with the Khanid kingdom as well as against the heretical Cult of St. Tetrimon. Lorewise, this is a little different than the war between the Sani Sabik and the Empire. The cult of St. Tertimon are a lot more palatable to the Amarrian people, so lorewise they should be more numerous. In reality, I think there are perhaps one or two Tetrimonists, but a gazillion Blood Raiders.
It should be possible for entire regions to have war with one another, such as tribe against tribe or Holder against Holder. The followers of Tibus Heth should be able to declare a kind of free perma-war dec against Caldari loyalists, and so on.
In defense of the Blood Raiders though, I do think that they are doing some of the best (or only) RP in EVE at the moment. Naupilius is spending a lot of his own time and ISK to provide content such as placing 'easter egg' towers, simply to give other people the opportunity to shoot these towers down. Synthetic Cultist is doing her (it's?) part in providing story lore content in the summit. A lot of work and creative thinking went into the RP that these players are doing. The downside of this is that they all seem fractured and dissenting, despite Omir Sarikusa's efforts to unite them.
Also, I have been an Amarr loyalist in FW and it is a little boring. I chose the Amarr faction because I thought they were the 'bad guys'. Slavery = Bad. Am I right? In reality, I join a FW loyalist corp who are one of the few, if only, roleplaying corps in EVE. The roleplaying was kind of off and on at times, and at times I felt like it was being used as a convenient excuse to belittle or humiliate me. It's true that we were restricted to Amarrian hulls, which wasn't a problem for me, but some people got kicked out or quit the corp over it. The use of drugs was also prohibited.
FW itself is quite limiting to roleplay. It's hard to tell a good story or a funny joke in the middle of a car crash. This is what FW seems like to me, a kind of demolition derby. There isn't much time for roleplaying in a fire fight.
As far as game mechanics, I have wondered about adding a 'War cry' and a 'Death cry' to a character's creation sheet. The war cry would be a pre-chosen sentence delivered as soon as the first shots were fired, and the Death cry an EVE mail once a pod has been ruptured. This would add a lot to the roleplaying experience.
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Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.
I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.
Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.
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In defense of the Blood Raiders though, I do think that they are doing some of the best (or only) RP in EVE at the moment. Naupilius is spending a lot of his own time and ISK to provide content such as placing 'easter egg' towers, simply to give other people the opportunity to shoot these towers down. Synthetic Cultist is doing her (it's?) part in providing story lore content in the summit. A lot of work and creative thinking went into the RP that these players are doing. The downside of this is that they all seem fractured and dissenting, despite Omir Sarikusa's efforts to unite them.
They are far from the only people doing RP.
As far as game mechanics, I have wondered about adding a 'War cry' and a 'Death cry' to a character's creation sheet. The war cry would be a pre-chosen sentence delivered as soon as the first shots were fired, and the Death cry an EVE mail once a pod has been ruptured. This would add a lot to the roleplaying experience.
I don't think it would. Stock, automated phrases are not roleplay. Roleplay is deliberate interaction, the back and forth of action and reaction. In such a case as a fight, roleplay is inherent in what ships people fly, how they approach and act in the battle, and how they choose, directly, to open or end it. It will also be partially built on what they choose to say, such as local taunts (PIE fleets for example frequently quotes Scripture when the enemy is choosing not to engage, as a way of hopefully taunting them. It's not just RPers that do this as it happens all the time with OOC smacktalk as well, and that in itself is a form of RP).
Either way I would consider the vast majority of RP to happen outside of battles. Battles are battles and their purpose is in that limited capacity. They are useful for demonstrating a character's commitment to fight for their beliefs but ultimately most interaction rests in the spaces between battles. Sometimes that is local smack, but it is more often dialogue in The Summit, on the official RP forum, or in private conversations between characters or in the various other RP channels and establishments. The interactions in these mediums fosters relations and can lead to or be spawned off the battles, or not be related at all as having a battle is not at all necessary for RP.
RP needs a balance of interactive activities and in-game space activities. But the moment it becomes automated, it is no longer RP, just two-dimensional cariactures in a video game. it is for this same reason that I also dislike characters who have been created solely to be stock mouthpieces for their faction, without any consideration for the actual character itself. I, for one, want to immerse myself in a real universe populated by real people with real beliefs, emotions, and interactions.
As far as all this talk against faction loyalist RP? Different flavors. For me, independent, freelancer, pirate RP is about as dull as it gets. You have no purpose, no drive, no structure. There is no want or conflict in that kind of RP because by its nature you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want. And when you have that kind of freedom, there no longer becomes any reason to do anything. Yes, you can build something, you can create your own goals, but for me the capacity to build something means little if there is no reason to build it beyond what reasoning you invent to give it purpose.
Loyalist RP provides a framework for a character. It provides a structure to guide their actions, as well as conflict in that what that character wants or how they act may or may not mesh with the structure and they must try to deal with this in some way. Limitations and restrictions on a character create conflict, and conflict is what drives a story. I'm glad to have limitations. I'm glad to have a structure. I'm glad that my character has a purpose to try and fulfill, and that there are roadblocks on the way of that. And no, this purpose is not such two-dimensional goals such as 'defeat the Republic and win the war'. Yes, that can't be acheived within mechanics, and yes that is dull. Any two-dimensional and uninspired RP is dull. Purpose, for any of the factions, is what is determined by that faction's culture, its beliefs, and where RP lies is in how how these cultures and beliefs interact or clash against the individual wills of the people who uphold them.
When you remove all of that, what are you left with? What is the point of a blank slate that has nothing to guide its motivations and no purpose to fulfill? For me, independent RP is that. There's just no point to it for me. Essentially, I for one prefer and need a collectivist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism) angle in my RP, and so loyalist RP is by far more interesting to me than independent RP.
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Look guys! I remembered my password!
I'm going to address a post regarding both my current corporation and my previous one here.
Do I dislike Pyre as a whole? No, hell I still like Zanzi he hasn't tried to get me to second guess friends and we generally have a good talk when we are on together.
I can't speak for the others you name dropped here but personally, I dislike that you're using our friendship as a means to make you sound reasonable in an argument against my corp. Frankly it's disrespectful.
As for the sub-sec: Do I dislike some of the things TS-F did:
First the part about the moderation of OOC and other channels; especially ts-f public. While yes it is their channel and they have every right to pick and choose who can be there, as a person who thought we had some good RP with liuni or at least us talking about lore. It was fun while it lasted, only to also be on an alt and have someone (Also in the killmail further below) say they did it on a whim still can urk someone; and again the rest of their leadership standing by the decision....I believe most here would find that an annoyance and harmful to RP especially when none of the rules were broken IC or oocly. But in the context of the following two points, probably a minor one.
For this point, I'm going to have to start with OOC. The idea that TS-F ever moderated OOC is a fallacy, pure and simple. Tib was a summit moderator, and a damned good one, whilst in TS-F he never bent his principles for corpmates, nor was he asked to. If anything he held us more accountable for our actions than non-TS-F members.
We also, through Drake hosted the OOC TeamSpeak 3 server, which was also our corp TeamSpeak server for a very long time. Resultantly, there were a lot of TS-F server admins, however we also took pains to make sure that there were non-TS-F admins on the server.
In regards to TS-F Public, it is our channel and you made a personal attack on one of the channel mods, who used his own judgement and powers to remove you for that. I personally condone his decision to exercise his power within that channel. Moreover, your mention of not breaking rules holds no water, as previously mentioned you made an attack on a former TS-F member and were removed for it.
What recently happened to make me just write them off while in Pyre was the fact that a friend ValentinaDM decided to join them because they wanted to do more factionwar and stay in frigates instead of TISHU's bigger doctrines. The Scopeworks was sad to see her go but we wish her well and still do, and even request updates with cheer leading parties. However the day it happened someone I thought of as a friend, who kept me playing eve when the times were tough yet then joined ts-f decided to try and form a wedge between ValentinaDM and myself by saying things like she was a spy the entire time; "how does it feel to be tricked" and generally being a horrid anti-diplomat and antagonist on the verge of being comical if it wasn't an honest try. (You know who you are) Again, that srs rp 'why do people hate us?'
In this case, this is the first time I've heard anything of this. Resultantly I'm disinclined to really give this much credence.
Frankly, as your friend I'd have hoped you'd be able to come to me about someone saying things link this in our group. On a professional level, as head diplomat I implore people to bring this kind of thing to me, with logs and action will be taken accordingly.
Both PY-RE and TS-F hold their members to a standard.
The main problem with what happened that made myself and scopeworks mad before there even was a scope works was https://zkillboard.com/kill/35788890/ Where Deadrow lured Avio (New to pc gaming in the first place) into their system with the -OOC- promise of learning how to rat and PVE. Instead, as you see they blapped him. Now, many might be saying he should have known better he couldn't; it was even and the guy was a mid-teen at the time new to the game with the promise of maybe making a new friend or two with the help of Deadrow telling him now to fit things. What compounded this was that the TS-F corporation instead of saying "Sorry, there is one jerk in every circle" instead laughed at him for a couple months (Along with OOC channel trolling) and even to this day (This week) basically hold the standard of "he should have known better" where even most alliances now teach new people and don't pull such mean tactics.
If there is ever a way to make sure no new people come to eve and no new RPers come out to play; -that- is the way to do it.
I'm going to work from the bottom to top here. Your point is fairly self defeating, insofar as Foley still plays, he's more involved in the RP community now than he was, and frankly has become a very competent PvPer. While what happened with Deadsie didn't have any real bearing on how he's progressed as a character, it certainly didn't drive him away as you claim these kind of actions do.
As for your suggestion that we should have apologise for DeadRow firstly there was an internal process that happened that we kept internal for the sake of professionalism. Secondly, TS-F was a pirate entity in which one of our members adhered to the letter of a rules while bending the spirit of them. As our rules weren't broken we did not feel the need for any disciplinary process to be made public.
Finally as a personal note on this subject, Foley came to Reynire despite being told by the entire OOC channel barring DeadRow himself that it was a trap. The obvious happened and Foley exploded. While he was annoyed at the time, he's since taken it in good spirits.
In conclusion the thought that Pyre is ruining RP is a very limiting thought when CCP has opened up the game mechanic to anyone and everyone without the ability to even shoot the circling outposts. However, with the previous talk about the 'old guard' and the 'new guard' duking it out; nothing brings it to the head as a new RPer coming to EVE from DUST514 and console gaming only to be blapped by TS-F in the height of their moderating days. Unfortunately that is what seemed to culminate my 2014 with RP, repairing the damage done to new players and the 'we aren't all like that' which has to happen way too often when I mention eve on steam or on other games. I am hoping for a better 2015 and I think it will happen with posts from Kala and updates from Valentina saying Pyre is welcoming to new people (Pyre is expanding like no tomorrow) and other corps having a newer person devision instead of 'lol freshmeat time to troll'
To conclude I have to note that PY-RE is not TS-F, the things that TS-F did are not things that PY-RE has done. Again, TS-F never had moderating days, Tib did. PY-RE is and always has been new player friendly, we will continue to be so and we will continue to shoot all of the things in Factional Warfare.
Should you wish to discuss this further, hit me up in game about it.
Zanzi out.
edit: My English is potato.
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Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.
I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.
Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.
This (unfortunately)
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I have always seen a general lack in loyalists, or at least ones who stick with it. So its nothing new.
Probably because loyalist RP is very restrictive. You limit yourself to 1/4 or 1/2 of all the high and low-sec regions, constantly spout the same slogans like a broken record and maybe even restrict your ship choices. Throw in the fact that you will need to either stop training this loyalist character to train that other character to do whatever or buy another account for the sake of consistently loyal behaviour in the RP character and you get something that is, let's be honest, pretty not fun. And it's not like you can just get to become good at whatever you want to do within just one year either, unless what you want to do is frigate solo combat every day all day, making the transition a bit problematic.
It's basically why I did not make my character a loyalist but instead a privateer. That way if I ever get sick of doing that privateering thing I could just hang in or simply shred that letter of marquee and go take on some other adventure.
I don't know, I have always played the loyalist and it never really bothered me. I never felt it constraining. I have been able to do nullsec stuff in Provi as well as empire wars, then lowsec stuff in Solitude, then FW... I have experienced most of what the game has to offer, even wormholes.
Of course I cheated a little back then. But I was creative. When I left the Amarr bloc to join a gallente loyalist RP corp, I played it as an Amarrian envoy, and the real goal was to help to cleanse the hell out of Solitude in some kind of CONCORD work. Of course it worked better than if it had been now, because it was before TEA and the war. But it was perfectly valid, and in the end cultural conflicts made my character leave the corp in bad terms with some of them after having been recognized as a valuable asset.
So all in all, be creative. Today though, it's a lot more difficult... :|
Holy fucking threadnaught.
1) To Pyre. You guys rock, keep doing what you're doing. Wish I was there, etc. I admit to some jealousy and frustration with you all at times, because 1) I am envious of the cohesive, skilled group youve made and 2) I cant really join you OR fight you, so I just kind of get to sit back and watch, but you're all having fun, and that is great.
2) To the people who want to be pirates and loyalists - no. It doesnt work that way. You can be a pirate with loyalist sympathies, but you cannot claim to be upholding an empire when, well, you dont uphold it. Sorry. Keep having fun regardless. You rock. But youre not RPing loyalists. That doesnt mean you shouldnt do it! Just expect some teeth gnashing, most of which I understand.
3) To the community in general: Sometimes, the IC/OOC divide has to be broken. Sometimes, it hurts. I spent six months as New Eden's Most Hated for the whole Coleile mess, which was, you know, CCP's story, not mine. Sorry that I wanted to take part in the ONE live event that both involved minmatar AND was actually at a time i could attend, but I did, and well... it fucking sucked. Sometimes, things happen for OOC reasons; that doesnt give anyone the right to single anyone out for extra RP shunning.
4) To CCP: FW fucking sucks. Period. You have managed to destroy everything about eve i loved, starting with the losec static plexes and ending with FW. Maybe someday you'll unfuck it, but frankly, I don't think I want to wait around, wringing my hands and hoping.
You know what the no 1 source of RP for me is anymore? People RPing NOT RPing with me. In bars, amarr and caldari emote ignoring me. People make a point of telling me i am not invited to RP events. Guess what? THIS ISNT FUN. This brings us back to the whole "oh, just make your own content". Really? I'll just RP with myself, then.
Am I bitter? FUCK YES. Why wouldnt I be?
A lot of people in this thread need to step back and breathe. Me included.
I didn't know it went that way... I wonder exactly what make people start to exclude you OOCly (through RP) added to ICly...
Anyway, Lyn has always been kind of fond of Ava so you are welcome to RP as much as you want... Just need time to get back from vacations next week...
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Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.
I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.
Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.
Again, FW kind of asks for that, but being a loyalist outside is a lot more free, albeit a bit less these days since it's war and all, and not just the old subtler cold war setting with CONCORD on top of it, granted.
Something that was horribly annoying the years past TEA was that you always got curbstomped ICly by every so called loyalist bloc for not being in FW and so not doing your part for your faction. It was understandable from some elements ICly, but it still was extremely annoying because it also bled terribly OOCly.
Anyway now, it should be less present and since RP has become rather anemic in proportion, it shouldn't be too hard to find valuable ways to be a loyalist outside of FW.
Without FW though, I would already be involed in some kind of bridge between factions project, but now that they are in a war... :/
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My RP at the moment is fairly simple
Non conflict and non aggression in a game where 90% of people tell me I have to PvP to "play the game" or "Enjoy myself"
Over time I try and work myself to be thoroughly neutral, at the moment I'm still erring on good and telling people that their murdering is wrong. We'll see. I've declared my corp as non aggressive and essentially neutral so if you want to visit my place and tell me why I shouldn't hate your faction, by all means do so.
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@ Liuani,
I'm not sure the best way to say it, but people are going to shoot people in EVE all the time for the lols, it's a thing. Talk to the person if you are that concerned for their emotional well being at losing? Other than that your post is reading very rawr at TSF which is just silly talk ;)
@ Jikahr,
There's been a ton of people begging CCP for all faction faction warfare for years :( Civil wars, pirate factions, there's no damn reason why they can't implement the gameplay for other border regions. We've been smoking that crack idea pipe on backstage for a long time :(
Then again maybe they realize how shit it is and don't want to ruin the rest of their regions.
As for RP in general I think current players just have to really put some self-imposed blinders on to the overall cluster and state of things, put up some high walls around what topics to talk about or try to influence, and play in a very small sandbox with other capsuleers. I think there's plenty of world-building and adventure to be had between capsuleers, but it is no longer a thing where you are going to do something for faction A against other capsuleers for faction B and have any change in the storyline.
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The unchanging nature of FW is one of the places where that whole part of EVE feels abandoned. I don't think *anyone* six years ago thought that FW's warzones would still be the same static ones that they are now.
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Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.
I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.
Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.
Again, FW kind of asks for that, but being a loyalist outside is a lot more free, albeit a bit less these days since it's war and all, and not just the old subtler cold war setting with CONCORD on top of it, granted.
Something that was horribly annoying the years past TEA was that you always got curbstomped ICly by every so called loyalist bloc for not being in FW and so not doing your part for your faction. It was understandable from some elements ICly, but it still was extremely annoying because it also bled terribly OOCly.
Anyway now, it should be less present and since RP has become rather anemic in proportion, it shouldn't be too hard to find valuable ways to be a loyalist outside of FW.
Without FW though, I would already be involed in some kind of bridge between factions project, but now that they are in a war... :/
Those are among my reasons though. I have more, but those have nothing to do with game mechanics and more to do with mindsets I like to get into and mindsets I like to avoid.
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I can't speak for the others you name dropped here but personally, I dislike that you're using our friendship as a means to make you sound reasonable in an argument against my corp. Frankly it's disrespectful.
What kind of friend twists another friends compliments into something completely different? Frankly, that's far more disrespectful. Liuni has an issue with certain people. She is not trying to marginalize the entirety of TS-F. She see's you (and has told me many times) as a positive influence and what I thought was a good friend. Guess you've shown your true colors here.
For this point, I'm going to have to start with OOC. The idea that TS-F ever moderated OOC is a fallacy, pure and simple. Tib was a summit moderator, and a damned good one, whilst in TS-F he never bent his principles for corpmates, nor was he asked to. If anything he held us more accountable for our actions than non-TS-F members.
And that's why so many complaints were made about him and why people came to me telling accounts of blatant abuse in favor of TS-F, where one TS-F said something inflammatory, someone else retorted with something far less inflammatory, and said someone else was muted for a good long while? That isn't assumption. That is fact. Saying otherwise is living in another world.
We also, through Drake hosted the OOC TeamSpeak 3 server, which was also our corp TeamSpeak server for a very long time. Resultantly, there were a lot of TS-F server admins, however we also took pains to make sure that there were non-TS-F admins on the server.
What you do with your TS3 is irrelevant to this discussion and Liuni's points.
In regards to TS-F Public, it is our channel and you made a personal attack on one of the channel mods, who used his own judgement and powers to remove you for that. I personally condone his decision to exercise his power within that channel. Moreover, your mention of not breaking rules holds no water, as previously mentioned you made an attack on a former TS-F member and were removed for it.
Also a lie. He quite literally said 'I banned Scope Works on a whim.' In addition, multiple individuals watched the ban occured, and asked why. As all that was seen was a TS-F saying 'Scope Works? In here?' followed by a blanket ban. There were no insults, there wasn't even a single statement said in that channel. This was seen by a lot of people, logged, and witnessed. Saying otherwise, again, is living in another world.
In this case, this is the first time I've heard anything of this. Resultantly I'm disinclined to really give this much credence.
Frankly, as your friend I'd have hoped you'd be able to come to me about someone saying things link this in our group. On a professional level, as head diplomat I implore people to bring this kind of thing to me, with logs and action will be taken accordingly.
Both PY-RE and TS-F hold their members to a standard.
Liuni's in class but said she will send them once she is available.
I'm going to work from the bottom to top here. Your point is fairly self defeating, insofar as Foley still plays, he's more involved in the RP community now than he was, and frankly has become a very competent PvPer. While what happened with Deadsie didn't have any real bearing on how he's progressed as a character, it certainly didn't drive him away as you claim these kind of actions do.
Do you know why it didn't? Because I and others worked our asses off to support him, like Liuni said. I spent months working with him, helping him to learn, encouraging him, and he has indeed become better. He is his own man, his own player, and someone I am the most proud of for their progress and growth. Someone I'm proud to call my friend. But don't even think for a minute that your constant vitriolic attitude toward him, from you and others, was harmless in any way. I remember you and Deadrow swooping in on him in OOC waving around your killboards and insulting him before I stepped in with others. Don't sugar coat how you harassed him.
As for your suggestion that we should have apologise for DeadRow firstly there was an internal process that happened that we kept internal for the sake of professionalism. Secondly, TS-F was a pirate entity in which one of our members adhered to the letter of a rules while bending the spirit of them. As our rules weren't broken we did not feel the need for any disciplinary process to be made public.
Discipline nothing, just fucking apologize and stop hazing the kid like you did for months. Hiding behind 'professionalism' in a game where you all thrived on messing with others is a thin and non-credible excuse, simple as that.
Finally as a personal note on this subject, Foley came to Reynire despite being told by the entire OOC channel barring DeadRow himself that it was a trap. The obvious happened and Foley exploded. While he was annoyed at the time, he's since taken it in good spirits.
....good...spirits? Have you TALKED to him? Zanzibar you are far more intelligent than this, give me a break. Numerous people have seen just how 'good spirited' it's been. I'm sure if I asked around I could also pull logs up to show just how 'good spirited' it's been. You lured him in, trolled the ever living hell out of him, along with a large amount of OOC, and demeaned him. That was not a 'good spirited' joke. That was bullying.
To conclude I have to note that PY-RE is not TS-F, the things that TS-F did are not things that PY-RE has done. Again, TS-F never had moderating days, Tib did. PY-RE is and always has been new player friendly, we will continue to be so and we will continue to shoot all of the things in Factional Warfare.
I don't have a problem with PYRE itself. I like a lot of their members. Pieter, Kala, Desi, even Pryce (lovable ball of hate he is) are all a credit to their play style and corporation with their actions against ~the man~ and their baller deal-with-it shades. But I and others will never forget, nor forgive what TS-F has done, especially with the continued denial that it happened, and the attempts to gain sympathy for being attacked when you all did the very same to others in the past.
PYRE is just sadly caught in the cross hairs since you all reside within it.
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I think this thred is heading into derail argument mode now?
If you are upset at TSF for trolling someone OOC that might be a different topic?
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I think this thred is heading into derail argument mode now?
If you are upset at TSF for trolling someone OOC that might be a different topic?
*Wild Foley Jones appears*
ssssssssssshhhhhhhh let it happen....
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[mod]It's become pretty clear (to me at least) over the last few days that the original supposed topic of the thread is not going to be returned to and people would rather sling shit back and forth at one another unproductively.
There has been disagreement about some of the reports submitted regarding this thread and whether to take action or not and what that action might be. I'm exercising my right to discretion and locking the thread, pending a proper discussion among the mod team about what to do here.[/mod]