Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 19 Nov 2014, 12:49
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So this is a PF area I'm weak in, and I also think never quite meshes with our mutual RP, or at least is impossible to.
Capsuleers spend vast amounts of money on incredibly powerful cybernetic brain implants, which it seems make us smarter, faster, more sociable, etc etc. Uber-men and Uber-women
Some of the descriptions of the implant / skills always sounded a bit OP to my liking, with preternatural speech , reflexes, and assorted abilities.
Is this still the case? Are the implants and related abilities still described this way in PF?
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Bringing to mind the tall arches in a holy cathedral, this regal pair of black boots has a voluminous shape that grants plenty of space to the capsuleer's powerful legs, along with patented thermal protection for any manner of environment.
Everything is over the top. Even footwear.
That said, many of the implant and skill descriptions don't have the same flowery language as they used to.
Some of the special implants, lke the Genolution set, have fancy descriptions, but most don't.
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Bringing to mind the tall arches in a holy cathedral, this regal pair of black boots has a voluminous shape that grants plenty of space to the capsuleer's powerful legs, along with patented thermal protection for any manner of environment.
Everything is over the top. Even footwear.
That said, many of the implant and skill descriptions don't have the same flowery language as they used to.
Some of the special implants, lke the Genolution set, have fancy descriptions, but most don't.
Capsuleers have powerful legs? It must be due to all the time they spend suspended in an egg sack full of goo in micro-gravity.
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Bringing to mind the tall arches in a holy cathedral, this regal pair of black boots has a voluminous shape that grants plenty of space to the capsuleer's powerful legs, along with patented thermal protection for any manner of environment.
Everything is over the top. Even footwear.
That said, many of the implant and skill descriptions don't have the same flowery language as they used to.
Some of the special implants, lke the Genolution set, have fancy descriptions, but most don't.
Capsuleers have powerful legs? It must be due to all the time they spend suspended in an egg sack full of goo in micro-gravity.
Maybe the part about suspended animation is a lie and capsuleers are really twisting, turning and running around in their pod whenever they fly?
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Here goes one of my character's IC question, that haunts her for several years already: "What does pilots hands do, while they are piloting in capsule" :lol:
As for implants, I usually consider hardwiring as affecting only capsule interface and no effect on daily life, while attribute enhancing implants basically have no effect as well (only for skill learning), with one exceptions: for decision making based on character attributes, I use combined base attribute, modified with implant, as a modifier for a dice roll, scaled on minimal possible attribute +0 implant (17) to maximum possible with +5 implant (32).
For example, if you roll dice d20, you will have possible scale of 17+1 = 18 to 32+20 = 52. If you set pass check for attribute-dependent event as 50%, then you can consider you have passed the check if sum of dice result with your attribute and implant is greater than 35.
If you want the attribute to affect event more than random, you choose smaller dice, if you want it to be more random - you choose bigger dice ;)
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This is an extremely advanced technological society and eggers are wealthy beyond the wildest dreams of anyone else. Augmentation is a given and you frankly can't go to far here. The standard stat implants aren't very likely to have huge impacts on physical capacity, but it'd be extremely unlikely that the technology to become JC Denton isn't widely available to eggers.
We are literally superhumans when it comes to our brains, by default. Superhuman physicality is hardly beyond our reach, but it'd be up to the individual how much they give a shit, given that our real power comes from our pod interface.
Also, microgravity/floating in pod would hardly be a problem for any sufficiently decent stimulation system and worst case scenario we can just jump into another supercharged clone.
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I'd say all the benefits of the stat implants is ultimately balanced out by the synaptic degradation that occurs when cloning, to explain why we still have really really dumb people as capsuleers despite the requirement of 98% intelligence and psych-expanding implants.
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Trying to handwave players like me into characters like Katrina just doesnt work Sami.
I'm not super intelligent, and I wouldn't even get invited to egger school due to my psych profile. I also can't be bothered to try and roleplay a perfect leader type, because tbh, it would be boring for me.
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I'd say all the benefits of the stat implants is ultimately balanced out by the synaptic degradation that occurs when cloning, to explain why we still have really really dumb people as capsuleers despite the requirement of 98% intelligence and psych-expanding implants.
Or as a truck driver I once overheard in my college days in my college town said of the students "All those brains and not an ounce of common sense". Being intelligent doesn't always equate to being "space smart!"
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Trying to handwave players like me into characters like Katrina just doesnt work Sami.
I'm not super intelligent, and I wouldn't even get invited to egger school due to my psych profile. I also can't be bothered to try and roleplay a perfect leader type, because tbh, it would be boring for me.
Personally, I'm not about to roleplay all of Elmund's abilities unless the situation demands it. Less is more.
(And yes, I know this sounds hypocritical, but I'm learning, alright?)
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I tend to avoid most implant-related RP if it is 'fancy,' and try to not pay attention when others do it. Situations and scenes quickly become absurd if everyone is trying to be some sexy version of Terminator.
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I tend to avoid most implant-related RP if it is 'fancy,' and try to not pay attention when others do it. Situations and scenes quickly become absurd if everyone is trying to be some sexy version of Terminator.
When is ah-nuld terminator not sexy? :P
Off topic: your avatar picture has my IRL haircut, good choice.
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I tend to avoid most implant-related RP if it is 'fancy,' and try to not pay attention when others do it. Situations and scenes quickly become absurd if everyone is trying to be some sexy version of Terminator.
When is ah-nuld terminator not sexy? :P
Off topic: your avatar picture has my IRL haircut, good choice.
If only the game had more interesting haircuts like dis.
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I tend to avoid most implant-related RP if it is 'fancy,' and try to not pay attention when others do it. Situations and scenes quickly become absurd if everyone is trying to be some sexy version of Terminator.
When is ah-nuld terminator not sexy? :P
Off topic: your avatar picture has my IRL haircut, good choice.
Pics, now.
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I tend to avoid most implant-related RP if it is 'fancy,' and try to not pay attention when others do it. Situations and scenes quickly become absurd if everyone is trying to be some sexy version of Terminator.
When is ah-nuld terminator not sexy? :P
Off topic: your avatar picture has my IRL haircut, good choice.
Pics, now.
way off topic. maybe later in that dedicated thread... prob not :P
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Augmentation is a given and you frankly can't go to far here.
Except you can. It's in one of the books, or other PF.
The more technodoodads you put in a person, the less they're able to function as a person, instead of a machine.
the opposing thing was to use the minimum of cybernetic devices, if you want to function as a person.
I think it was a Sansha character explaining this. For their True Slave creatures, they have as much cyberware as possible, because they're just tools, and too little cyberware makes them too human to function as a tool. For their True Citizens, they have as little cyberware as possible, because they need to remain able to think independently.
that's the universe that CCP have written.
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It was The Burning Life.
The more human you replace with machine, the less functional they become as humans. The trick is to start with as little human as possible.
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This was a huge retconning PF fail IMO, that frankly disagrees with years of established PF about the level of cyberization, implants, and what those implants do.
"The Burning Life" should be banished from your thoughts as a steaming pile of PF shite
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But.. But the :grimdark:
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I'd say all the benefits of the stat implants is ultimately balanced out by the synaptic degradation that occurs when cloning, to explain why we still have really really dumb people as capsuleers despite the requirement of 98% intelligence and psych-expanding implants.
The synaptic degradation might be due to other things too, such as combat boosters, radiation, etc.
There is also the case of signal degradation. In an analogue medium (such as the human brain) the recording will always be somewhat more degraded than the original due to background noise. Your cassette tape recording of your favorite record album(s) may sound almost identical to the original, but when you start making a tape of the tape of the tape of the tape, there will be more and more noise and hiss introduced with each copy. This is due to loss of the original signal/ recording. There are imperfections in the recording medium that are exponentially magnified with each successive recording.
In the case of a cassette recording, it's usually something like the noise of the cassette drive motor that causes signal loss. In the case of a capsuleer, it might have to do with the selective editing out of the trauma of your pilot's death (as per the PF). The memory of your death might be removed from your conscious mind, but the trauma and fear might still be stored in your subconscious. The result would be a 'background hiss' in your mind of amnesia, terror and disorientation.
Those holes in your memory, the sense of dread about certain systems, recurring nightmares, and those 'deja vu' feelings will become compounded with each new clone. Sadly, there is no longer an original of you to back you up from. The original was killed when you made your first clone.
Also, you can be highly intelligent in math, science and engineering, and still come across like a knuckle-dragging buffoon when it comes to grammar, literacy, etc.
I have a friend who is making a six figure salary as a business consultant. His background is in electronic engineering. His skills in science and mathematics are highly developed, but he is essentially functionally illiterate when it comes to writing. I have another math genius friend who almost failed his undergraduate Mathematics degree because despite his stellar marks in everything science or math related, he failed his remedial mandatory English course three times, even with help from a special needs tutor. Dyslexia? Possibly. It's not my business to ask. Albert Einstein was apparently dyslexic.
The skills for spaceship piloting tend to be math and science based skills, but the skills for communicating over (OOC metagame) text based channels are grammatical and linguistic. Ability in one field does not necessarily entail ability in another.
In fact, I think there are something like six areas of intelligence, which includes not only mnemonics and spacial, but also social skills and 'emotional intelligence' (empathy).
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This was a huge retconning PF fail IMO, that frankly disagrees with years of established PF about the level of cyberization, implants, and what those implants do.
"The Burning Life" should be banished from your thoughts as a steaming pile of PF shite
I have not read any of the EVE fiction yet. I was going to get a copy of Burning Life to start with. What would you suggest as an alternative?
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I am completely disregarding TBL as it's just flat out stupid. This isn't Shadowrun. Humanity doesn't come from what your limbs or organs are made from.
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I disagree with Silas about TBL.
Are you serious Miz? Do you disregard Anyanka too?
Also, Jika, read The Burning Life please! If you can, read it first!
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This was a huge retconning PF fail IMO, that frankly disagrees with years of established PF about the level of cyberization, implants, and what those implants do.
"The Burning Life" should be banished from your thoughts as a steaming pile of PF shite
I have not read any of the EVE fiction yet. I was going to get a copy of Burning Life to start with. What would you suggest as an alternative?
The regular eve chronicles have mostly been pretty good and do far more to flesh out the world and characters.
I disagree with Silas about TBL.
What uh, did you like about the characters, plot, or quote unquote 'world building' that took place in that novel?
Way to take a potentially interesting faction like the blood radiers and talk about the man's grandmother? For real? Way to make the leader of the blood raiders look like a ridiculous old man? The protagonist is awful, the entire story is awful, it's a thinly veiled exposition vehicle to have this "everyman" tour the cluster and miraculously visit all of the pirate factions and all of the pirate faction leaders? The hell is going on where a random non capsuleer gets to meet the leaders of the Blood Raiders, Sansha K. himself, the Guristas, the Angel Cartel... For real? It's ----terrrrrible---
Not to mention the awful retconning on things like cybernetics and the like.
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If CCP wanted to do it right IMO, you do a series of books with narrow focus, that all tie in together moving a larger plot forward.
Say your 'story' is 6 books long, you do each novel focusing on an aspect of a faction with appearances by the other factions.
So book 1 might be Caldari focused about a caldari adventure/whatever and deal with their side of x intricate plot
book 2 continues the story from a Matari charcter's point of view, tangentially related or with a cameo by characters from book 1
book 3, etc moving along.
Do 4 with the main factions then keep spinning off with smaller novellas for the subordinate factions, from CONCORD to the Guristas to whatever.
Also you'd get snazzy book spine artwork that would all line up together to make a nice picture :P
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This is why I will never involve myself with any cybernetics RP.
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that's the universe that CCP have written.
Well, sorry that the things don't match up to what people want.
In any case, you MUST recall some things which are important.
1. Todo Kirkinen, the Zainou Biotech founder, uploaded his mind to a machine. This is an ingame fact (from the description of Zainou)
2. Brain scans can be stored, and copied many times. This is an ingame fact (from the sansha branch of the amarr epic arc missions)
3. Hardware is unbelieveably cheap. This is an ingame fact (from item descriptions. Nanites, nanites everywhere)
THUSLY
A. There has to be SOME REASON why the capsuleer even exists in a humanoid form, and not simply as a brain scan uploaded to a computer core.
Computer cores are cheap, brain scans are known technologies, it's possible to upload a brain to a machine. Why is this not routine ?
There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.
Or sure, just go all 110% cybernetic, and be the T-101 and Ahnold your way through all the RP venues.
And people get butthurt about Synthia being a machine.
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The easiest way to fix the PF would be more along the lines of
-removing the 100% cyber conversion of Zainou
-leaving Sansha K. as the only other 100% cyberized infomorph as it's sort of the core of their faction identity.
-weave in some better pf explanium/nerfing about implants and how they work, with a self-limiting reason that makes some kind of more sense than what they said in burning life, which made zero sense. Could be as simple as 'we don't have the technology yet to run a consciousness 100% artificial without a living brain' and leave it at that.
'we don't know how the consciousness transfer actually works, the Jovians gave us this black box, we don't know how to make it, or how the actual science works outside of a basic level'
There are ways around it
Eve PF has written itself into a corner on some of the core gameplay elements that if you really think about the underlying technologies you wouldn't get the sort of society and systems they have in the game.
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I am completely disregarding TBL as it's just flat out stupid. This isn't Shadowrun. Humanity doesn't come from what your limbs or organs are made from.
What is 'humanity' though? Didn't Socrates describe humans as a featherless biped?
On the topics of implants, how many can you have and still remain human? At what point do you become a Sansha-like cyborg? The Khanid are now using sub-cranial implants to control their slaves, which is certainly veering into 'meat robot' territory. I suppose this becomes an 'Argonaut's ship' sort of problem. If you have a vehicle such as a wooden boat or a metal car, and every piece eventually gets damaged and replaced, is it still the same original boat or car?
Are capsuleers even human? Apparently we are more like humanoids, human in shape only. Our bodies are made out of some biomass which doesn't even contain our own DNA at first. We aren't milk drinking mammals, we are more like 'possessed' re-animated flesh golems.
It does make me wonder about trans-humanism. Why even bother with the fleshy, squishy human looking occupant at all? Why not just upload our minds directly into a ship's black box computer instead? Then, when the ship goes into structure, a small hard box the size of a car battery auto-ejects and warps off. If we need a humanoid body to walk around a station in, we could use an android.
Also, why stick to the human shape? Our form is useful on the surface of a 1 G planet, but what about in a microgravity environment? Wouldn't it be more useful to have the body of a cephalod (squid)? Those big eyes and eight arms would certainly come in pretty handy for a combat pilot. Squids are already adapted to spending their entire lives in a liquid micro-gravity environment, unlike humans.
If Blood Raiders eat nothing but human flesh, why not develop a more carnivorous body for one's self such as a canine? A humanoid body with a wolf's head might sound corny, but it would be quite practical for a Blood Raider.
Today, there is an Electrical engineer in the U.S. who is in the process of getting his body transformed into a cat. He calls himself 'Stalking cat'. He has filed his teeth into pointed shapes, tattooed leopard spots all over his body, and has had whiskers surgically implanted into his cheeks. I notice that surgery, like gambling, was once an option in some NPC stations. Apparently though, this has been taken out.
Dogs (and cats) have sharp teeth and claws, and a digestive system specifically designed for the ingestion of raw meat. They have heightened senses, such as a sense of smell (improved scanning). They can be pretty darn scary looking too, which is also helpful for a pirate.
Humans and sapiens in general (Orangutan, Gorilla, Chimpanzees, etc) are either by nature omnivores or vegetarians. Humans with a heavily meat based diet tend to develop health problems such as rectal cancer and so on.
I understand the Tahkmanir were experimenting with Trans-humanism, perhaps the Jovians were as well. Why are capsuleers restricted to only human form?
I was even tempted to deliberately engineer my character to be a Siamese twin of myself. I would clone a female version of myself, then incorporate both genders in the same capsule, joined together at the shoulder and hip. If our bodies become our ships, then surely eight limbs would be better than four? This would be like one of the 'barrel people' that the Ancient Greeks believed once populated Earth.
In the Incal Light series, there was something like this inside of an egg which acted as the Emperor. They called it 'The Supreme Androgyne'. They seemed to share one mind, since both heads talked simultaneously. The Supreme Androgyne was assassinated, and a man and woman who participated said that they would now form the new supreme Androgyne. So clearly, this was not the result of a birth defect, but something that was deliberately chosen.
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that's the universe that CCP have written.
There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.
I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.
Minmatar? Ancestor worship.
Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?
The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.
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I loved that the burning life told the story of baseliners doing the things they did. Sure they could have made it the way you wanted it. But they didn't and I like that I just bought three books instead of thirty books. I liked drem's story and family is a significant part of life as a blood raider. I liked that it was dark but it still was not as dark as it could've been. The agents perspective was also nice. And also seeing inside of the factions from the characters point of views was nice as well. It was not a big budget book. It was better than the tony g books in my opinion but they too have a place in the bowels of my heart. Maybe one day they will make the book you wanted them to make. I like what we have from ccp so far though.
Also, I agree with louella and silas about adding to cyberization lore. I don't think ccp have written themselves into a corner at all. Eve is big and can be expanded indefinitely. Who says they won't add real space physics to eve and retcon fluid space? This is ccp we are talking about here.
I am completely disregarding TBL as it's just flat out stupid. This isn't Shadowrun. Humanity doesn't come from what your limbs or organs are made from.
What is 'humanity' though? Didn't Socrates describe humans as a featherless biped?
On the topics of implants, how many can you have and still remain human? At what point do you become a Sansha-like cyborg? The Khanid are now using sub-cranial implants to control their slaves, which is certainly veering into 'meat robot' territory. I suppose this becomes an 'Argonaut's ship' sort of problem. If you have a vehicle such as a wooden boat or a metal car, and every piece eventually gets damaged and replaced, is it still the same original boat or car?
Are capsuleers even human? Apparently we are more like humanoids, human in shape only. Our bodies are made out of some biomass which doesn't even contain our own DNA at first. We aren't milk drinking mammals, we are more like 'possessed' re-animated flesh golems.
It does make me wonder about trans-humanism. Why even bother with the fleshy, squishy human looking occupant at all? Why not just upload our minds directly into a ship's black box computer instead? Then, when the ship goes into structure, a small hard box the size of a car battery auto-ejects and warps off. If we need a humanoid body to walk around a station in, we could use an android.
Also, why stick to the human shape? Our form is useful on the surface of a 1 G planet, but what about in a microgravity environment? Wouldn't it be more useful to have the body of a cephalod (squid)? Those big eyes and eight arms would certainly come in pretty handy for a combat pilot. Squids are already adapted to spending their entire lives in a liquid micro-gravity environment, unlike humans.
If Blood Raiders eat nothing but human flesh, why not develop a more carnivorous body for one's self such as a canine? A humanoid body with a wolf's head might sound corny, but it would be quite practical for a Blood Raider.
Today, there is an Electrical engineer in the U.S. who is in the process of getting his body transformed into a cat. He calls himself 'Stalking cat'. He has filed his teeth into pointed shapes, tattooed leopard spots all over his body, and has had whiskers surgically implanted into his cheeks. I notice that surgery, like gambling, was once an option in some NPC stations. Apparently though, this has been taken out.
Dogs (and cats) have sharp teeth and claws, and a digestive system specifically designed for the ingestion of raw meat. They have heightened senses, such as a sense of smell (improved scanning). They can be pretty darn scary looking too, which is also helpful for a pirate.
Humans and sapiens in general (Orangutan, Gorilla, Chimpanzees, etc) are either by nature omnivores or vegetarians. Humans with a heavily meat based diet tend to develop health problems such as rectal cancer and so on.
I understand the Tahkmanir were experimenting with Trans-humanism, perhaps the Jovians were as well. Why are capsuleers restricted to only human form?
I was even tempted to deliberately engineer my character to be a Siamese twin of myself. I would clone a female version of myself, then incorporate both genders in the same capsule, joined together at the shoulder and hip. If our bodies become our ships, then surely eight limbs would be better than four? This would be like one of the 'barrel people' that the Ancient Greeks believed once populated Earth.
In the Incal Light series, there was something like this inside of an egg which acted as the Emperor. They called it 'The Supreme Androgyne'. They seemed to share one mind, since both heads talked simultaneously. The Supreme Androgyne was assassinated, and a man and woman who participated said that they would now form the new supreme Androgyne. So clearly, this was not the result of a birth defect, but something that was deliberately chosen.
Oooooooh Jikahr! What other station other than blood raider covenant headquarters in kfie-z (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/station/KFIE-Z_VIII_-_Moon_18_-_Blood_Raiders_Logistic_Support) had a surgery service in it?
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that's the universe that CCP have written.
There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.
I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.
Minmatar? Ancestor worship.
Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?
The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.
Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives
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I loved that the the burning life told the story of baseliners doingg the things they did. Sure they could have made it the way you wanted it. But they didn't and I like that I just bought three books instead of thirty books. I liked drem's story and family is a significant part of life as a blood raider. I liked that it was dark but it still was not as dark as it could've been. The agents perspective was also nice. And also seeing inside of the factions from the characters point of views was nice as well. It was not a big budhet book. It was better than the tony g books in my opinion but they too have a place in rhe bowels of my heart. Maybe one day they will make the book you wanted them to make. I like what we have from ccp so far though.
Also, I agree with louella and silas about adding to cyberization lore. I don't think ccp have written themselves into a corner at all. Eve is big and can be expanded indefinitely. Who says they won't add real space physicsto eve and retcon fluid space? It Iis ccp we are talking about here.
Oooooooh Jikahr! What other station other than blood raider covenant headquarters in kfie-z (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/station/KFIE-Z_VIII_-_Moon_18_-_Blood_Raiders_Logistic_Support) had a surgery servIce in it?
While it's sometimes good to do an 'ordinary person in extraordinary events' story (which frankly is much of space opera fiction), the book just seemed too much A to B to C to D visit all the factions let's do a tour of new Eden.
Also no pun intended but way to de-fang and wimpify the raiders as well. The need to 'humanize' for background exposition is highly overrated in a sci fi space opera/adventure IP. In the Eve universe the blood raiders work as psychotic religious zealots doing awful things to people caught in their way. Scurry, ebil things. Talking about their grandmothers makes them laughable and is unnecessary. Talk about their hideous rituals and sacrifices, talk about their philosophical schizm with the empire if you want. Don't give me baseliner grandmothers.
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Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives
This. The Amarr care if you alter the basic, fundamental nature of the flesh (i.e., genetic alteration). They don't give a damn if you happen to remove some part of the flesh and replace it with a functional cybernetic alternative (although doing so for mere reasons of personal amusement or fad might be looked down upon in some circles).
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that's the universe that CCP have written.
There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.
I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.
Minmatar? Ancestor worship.
Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?
The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.
Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives
True, but there are also Muslims that drink alcohol. This confused me the first time I encountered it, until a Muslim explained to me "Christians aren't supposed to lie, but they sometimes do. Christians aren't supposed to steal, but they sometimes do." Then it became clear to me. The religious prohibition was a guideline for the free willed, not a defining characteristic that applied to each and every Muslim. The devout would abstain, but the weak willed would still struggle to observe it.
Mind you, the Amarrians also believe the cybernetic organs of their Emperors are holy relics. That's a part of the Orthodoxy as well.
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that's the universe that CCP have written.
There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.
I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.
Minmatar? Ancestor worship.
Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?
The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.
Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives
True, but there are also Muslims that drink alcohol. This confused me the first time I encountered it, until a Muslim explained to me "Christians aren't supposed to lie, but they sometimes do. Christians aren't supposed to steal, but they sometimes do." Then it became clear to me. The religious prohibition was a guideline for the free willed, not a defining characteristic. The devout would abstain, but the weak willed would still struggle to observe it.
Mind you, the Amarrians also believe the cybernetic organs of their Emperors are holy relics. That's a part of the Orthodoxy as well.
The first people in Amarr society to be heavily cyberized were the elite holders, using the devices to extend longevity to ridiculous lengths (400, 500 year lifespans and counting). I'm sure the fact that the elites used the devices to continue living so long has a lot to do with it being as a consequence accepted and proper in a spiritual sense.
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I'm also glad they didn't mary sue blood raiders in tbl. It gives blood raiders roleplayers more substance to give their character than "psychotic religious zealot".
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The first people in Amarr society to be heavily cyberized were the elite holders, using the devices to extend longevity to ridiculous lengths (400, 500 year lifespans and counting). I'm sure the fact that the elites used the devices to continue living so long has a lot to do with it being as a consequence accepted and proper in a spiritual sense.
Well, I think there is a difference between cybernetic implants and trans-humanism. Many of us have spectacles, pacemakers, artificial hips and so on. We don't think of ourselves as being less human for it, or in some cases less Godly. Stephen Hawkings is completely dependent on technology to move himself around or even speak, but we wouldn't consider him to be anything other than human.
Cybernetic implants might improve our abilities in the EVE world, but a motorcycle or a forklift will also give you 'super human' powers for those brief periods where you merge your mind with them through their control panels. Similarly, tools that were once considered to be 'the Devil's work' have been gradually accepted and normalized throughout history. I think this is the case in Amarrian society as well.
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I'm also glad they didn't mary sue blood raiders in tbl. It gives blood raiders roleplayers more substance to give their character than "psychotic religious zealot".
They completely glossed over the evil things the raiders do in the book; the protagonist is a raider in name only. Specifically he's an -Omir- sect Sabik in name only.
Here's my point:
Omir is supposedly one of the most cut-throat, twisted, dangerous S.O.B.'s in the cluster with enough cunning and guile to consolidate the Raiders under his rule with a campaign of assassination, torture, and violence, violently killing and purging every single Sabik in his sphere that didn't immediately tow his party line. The man has gassed entire atmospheres with poison. He is basically one of the psychotic ISIS terrorist ringleaders on steroids.
Now did you get any sense of that in his appearance in The Burning Life in the slightest? Or was he a silly old man who said a few things then the protagonist moved on to the next faction tourist spot?
Not all factions in EVE are equally 'gray area' some are designed from the start as slightly fleshed out mustache-twirling for space opera pew pew villians.
This doesn't mean we can't flesh them out, give them a bit more nuance, but we can't forget what they are.
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Not all factions in EVE are equally 'gray area' some are designed from the start as slightly fleshed out mustache-twirling for space opera pew pew villians.
This doesn't mean we can't flesh them out, give them a bit more nuance, but we can't forget what they are.
Snidely Whiplash in space.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhC_JJwlep0
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I get it. But even in the blood raiders missions in game. They are not as bad as everyone who has only seen them through amarrian mission perspective thinks they are. And I like that the books stayed true to the game in that sense. I read the books before I played any covenant missions. I did not feel the same way about the book but I thought going into the missions that I would see more gore. Nope. Most of the missions are defending blood raider space from concord and hauling ore. Nothing really scary ever happens in game either.
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Regarding Amarr and cybernetics: Amarr view cybernetics as a sign of royal divinity. They are literally sculpted onto religious statues in churches.
It's definitely not a matter of 'don't believe in it but do it anyway' like Muslims and alcohol. It's a core component of the faith. Amarr are very pro-cybernetics. They are not an anti-transhuman culture, what they are against is, as Esna said, altering the fundamental God-created being (gene alteration). Augmenting, adding to the existing God-created being through 'exterior' technology like cybernetics though is a well-respected thing.
Also, anything that attacks the free will is less welcome by the faith (TCMCs etc, which are very controversial and banned in more religious territories). They like to augment the mind, not subordinate it.
It's also why Amarrian cybernetics tend to be more overt and obvious, when bio-organic synthetic versions are possible. They don't want to hide them, because having them is something to be respected and even worshipped.
"The Emperor and the Five Heirs can expect to live for at least 500 years. Extensive cyber-implants keep their frail bodies alive, even when their organs begin to fail. These cyber-enhancements date back many millennia, and have become a symbol of royal divinity in the eyes of the Amarrians." - Amarr race article, EVEonline.com
Also, @Silas. It's too late to dump 100% cyberneticization. It's more than just Zainou and Sansha. Dusters are 100% cyberneticized as they are all brain uploaded into a computer database. While the sleeper implant is described as being a bio-implant rather than a cybernetic one, there really isn't a whole lot about them that's human anymore. They're described with terms like "entirely digital existence".
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I still say they are human. The body does not a human make. You don't say a quadriplegic is less human. You don't say a veteran using a prosthetic is less human. If a digital imprint is capable of simulating the mind sufficiently, it's human. In the case of capsuleers and their "stat" implant, they're superhuman. Accelerating thought and processing does not change the underlying mind. The implants and augmentations all replace or improve existing fundamentals of humans and unless you actually remove parts of the brain/mind somehow without replacing it with some accelerated replacement, then there's nothing less human about them.
There is only one component required in a human and that's the mind. Remove that and you have a flesh puppet you might keep artificially alive or in stasis, keep it and you have a human no matter the container.
The Sansha and others purposely suppressing or even removing that mind becomes another creature entirely (technozombies, for all intents and purposes) but the extremes you have to go to for a capsuleer to be less human would have to be significant.
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I imagine at its heart it's a fondness for the human form. it was being human that got us into the stars and being human that allows us to identify with each other. When we're designing prosthetics we try and design a human leg rather tan saying "hey, you lost your lower limbs but we're going to give you tracks instead because it's cooler and more functional." At heart capsuleers are human, some will want to move away from that but many won't and therefore the technology will have been designed with that in mind.
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While I wasn't particularly bothered by TBL, I can understand the criticisms. The way Raiders were portrayed didn't bother me because I'm not particularly invested in them - but I can understand someone getting angry about it, because I was angry that he put the motherfucking Rabbit in the book at all - let alone portrayed him the way he did.
Overall, I didn't mind the book. But I try my hardest to forget the Gurista portions of it. I can't say it isn't part of the lore, because it is, but damned if I want to think about it.
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While I wasn't particularly bothered by TBL, I can understand the criticisms. The way Raiders were portrayed didn't bother me because I'm not particularly invested in them - but I can understand someone getting angry about it, because I was angry that he put the motherfucking Rabbit in the book at all - let alone portrayed him the way he did.
Overall, I didn't mind the book. But I try my hardest to forget the Gurista portions of it. I can't say it isn't part of the lore, because it is, but damned if I want to think about it.
It takes a special plotline to simultaneously shit on so many factions in one story :P
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Maybe the reason why capsuleers even exist, is that a cyborgised human brain is cheaper than a proper computer core with a brain scan uploaded into it.
Which says a lot, given how cheap computer systems are.
Look at all that infrastructure about cloning, capsuleer training, and all that. When as Zainou shows, it can all be done on hardware. Train one person, upload and duplicate them to thousands of ships. How is that not cheaper ?
Lol pf.
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Laws against replicating humans.
The fact that if one person decides to turn against you, the other thousand copies will as well.
Finding people who want to be a ship and never have a human body ever again?
Just because something seems cheaper and easier doesn't mean it has no serious downsides.
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Laws against replicating humans.
The fact that if one person decides to turn against you, the other thousand copies will as well.
Finding people who want to be a ship and never have a human body ever again?
Just because something seems cheaper and easier doesn't mean it has no serious downsides.
Once a person is all software you just remove the bits about disloyalty and add more bits of code for following orders. The duplication part is where the PF doesn't hold up well. Caldari do tube children they'd have no issue copying infomorphs and dumping them into 1000 simultaneous bodies.
The elder fleet showed just how weak concord was anyway, it wouldn't hold back breaking the law
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Speaking of lore that irks me - I'd take TBL over the Elder Fleet events any day.
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There is a thing about cybernetics: they are just cybernetics :D
While living cells are nanomachines of mind-boggling complexity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41_Ne5mS2ls :cube:
You can give any attribute you want with cybernetics, if you wish, but I would expect you will lose way more in side effects by doing this ;)
For example, you can add mechanic arm, that will be incredibly strong, but then it will be way slower, less precise, it won't feel all the things and will have troubles with self-healing :lol:
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Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives
This. The Amarr care if you alter the basic, fundamental nature of the flesh (i.e., genetic alteration). They don't give a damn if you happen to remove some part of the flesh and replace it with a functional cybernetic alternative (although doing so for mere reasons of personal amusement or fad might be looked down upon in some circles).
Emphasis mine...
I think that's where the Gallente would step in with their whole body modder subculture.
Personally I've never given my characters more mods than I think are necessary for the character itself, and I always get them from places where either the exact mod exists or something close I can base it off of like Shadowrun or Deus Ex. Actually now that I'm thinking about it a lot of my ideas about character mods are specifically from Human Revolution cause I loved it so much.
Also when my characters have combat specific mods I generally never use them in RP and stick to them being just fluff or used in short stories or very specific RP.
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I honestly haven't read the descriptions for the implants in a while so have no idea what they say. I am playing it as the implants just 'make it easier' for Mit to do whatever it is she is trying to do in the pod. Better algorithms and stuff maybe? For me, none of these make her 'smarter', or 'faster' in any physical sense(she is pretty dim tbh and as fast as an ex-athlete who sort of works out... and likes deserts >.>). I figure all the implants and connections just make the ships intuitive and second nature to pilot without much thinking to be done, just like walking.
My $0.02 anyway.
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Some of the, "Non-standard" clone augmentations for Veikitamo I've written in:
Multi-chromatic eye implants: Artificial retina is designed to allow processing of the visual spectrum beyond that of natural human trichomacy up to billions of hues more in addition to to the near infrared and near ultraviolet ranges. Visual processing is partly made within the artificial eye itself and the visual cortex in clone brains featuring this augmentation are redesigned to handle the increased image data. These implants are intended to increase synchronization with ship optics and astrometric analysis used for target acquisition when in the pod.
Dual-purpose synthetic neural-fibre musculature: Clone muscles are replaced with artificial neural-fibre system that permit the usual range of locomation of an average human being. When inside the pod, the system is co-opted to act as an ancillary wetware computing network facilitating data processing when integrated with a vessel.
Intercalcated neural lace: Lots of carbon nanotubes in that brain and extended neural network that form a Direct Neural Interface with the entire clone shell for control, diagnostics, and on-demand neuroplasticity as required.
Airushin Blue-48 System: Fullerene isomer matrix system that replaces the usual blood and circulatory system. Used by internal nanites for repair and as a power source. Turns highly neurotoxic over days requiring continuous internal reprocessing. Excess heat generated by the reprocessing is absorbed by a specialized Heat Sink-Tessaract Capacitor storage cell system of Amarrian design.
Self-sequestration system: Based on technology derived from Sansha's Nation and Sleepers the Self-sequestration is a process by which a form of wetgraving is induced and consciousness withdrawn into an artificial reality. Used either as a form of personal entertainment, or for the control of remote personal avatars linked by an FTL communication system based on Sleeper metallofullerene quantum entanglement.
Those are just a few I've written in over the past year. However, the intent was never to display them as, "Look how much of an uber cyborg Veikitamo is." They are, to me an essential part of how the character has developed. Much like how today's elite sportspeople will often push themselves to their limits, these augmentations represent a similar attitude towards reaching what is felt to be peak performance as a capsuleer by doing whatever it takes.
There's also the fact that Veikitamo, as a character is particularly comfortable in the pursuit of her post-humanity.
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Self-equestrian system:
You had me there, then I realized I read it wrong.
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Self-equestrian system:
You had me there, then I realized I read it wrong.
ROFLMAO! I can imagine where this implant goes... >.>
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.....Caldari do tube children they'd have no issue copying infomorphs and dumping them into 1000 simultaneous bodies.
Gotta say something about this before I forget. The Mass production of "Unqiue" but genetically similar individual with the use of a "Tube Child Program" is a much, much smaller hurdle to jump over, than the mass production of the exact same consciousness across thousands of different bodies.
The possible usage as personal armies aside, legal issues like property rights, marriages, financial responsibility go right out the window. It would literally take a complete rewrite of any function legal system to be able to cohabitate the same person existing in multiple frames, especially if frames came into conflict with each other.
TLDR: Tube Children and each recognized individuals. An Informorph spread across 1000 frames is not. Very different.
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Bypass complications with implants. Use mutations and biology instead.
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The only thing implants really seem to do is make learning skillbooks easier. An intelligence implant doesn't give additional intelligence, it just makes uploading skillbooks into your brain go faster. That's quite an easy way to conceptualize it.
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The only thing implants really seem to do is make learning skillbooks easier. An intelligence implant doesn't give additional intelligence, it just makes uploading skillbooks into your brain go faster. That's quite an easy way to conceptualize it.
Except the old descriptions were very much talking about granting almost preternatural skills to the implant users. Fast talk, predictive social analysis, superhuman calculation and thinking etc. I always felt like the implants in the descriptions made our pedestrian conversations in the summit make us look like idiots. But how do you RP someone quite a bit smarter than you are? Heh.
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Stupid people do stupid things.
Smart people outsmart eachother,
then themselves.
All things being relative, we would all still feel and appear equally stupid/smart in eachothers eyes.
Just pretend that in whatever languages we are actually using in New Eden, we sound really smart.
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Maybe baseliners are 10 times dumber because New Eden is actually full of stupid ? :P